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Hunter328

Question About the Forsaken

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Hi. I'm currently on the third book and have a question. Many times in this book and the second book characters have wondered whether or not the forsaken have broken out of their prison. Where I am just now, Moiraine burst into Perin's room, seemingly shocked, announcing that one in fact is lose and ruling in Illian. My question though is, did all of the characters just up and forget the events that happened at the end of the first book? At the Eye of the World they openly fought Baalzamon and two forsaken I can't recall the names of. Rand killed one and the Green Man killed the other. Shouldn't that have been a big enough hint?

 

Sorry if this has been asked before. I did a quick search and didn't see anything right off. I did not want to look to deep though as only being on book 3 I didn't want to see a bunch of stuff that might spoil things I haven't read yet.

 

Thanks for any info.

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Well, for what i understood, the two Forsaken, Rand and everyone faced on the end of Book One were both imprisioned in a layer closest to the surface, and were the first to be released, when the time of the return of the Dragon came.

I'm not entirely sure, as i'm in the second book, but maybe the coming of the Dragon Reborn and he beginning to channel, even without wanting to, may have been the trigger to release the forsaken, as they were imprisioned by male Aes Sedai. The kind of energy a male channeler used may have something to do with it.

Sorry if i'm mistaken friends :).

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I looked again last night at the end of book one, and one of the two forsaken even mention that another, Ishamael, is also out and about. It just doesn't seem to make sense that after knowing that three are already out that afterwards everyone seems to forget this.

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Balthamel was killed by the Green Man.

Aginor; I do not recall Rand doing anything to him.  I think either Aginor taking too much of the One Power or "Baalzamon" doing something.

Baalzamon in the first books was not the Dark One.

 

Moiraine seemed to remember during her discussions with Suian; Great Hunt.  and the "Baalzmon" dreams seem to be remembered by Rand/Perrin/Mat during the 3rd book.

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According to the companion Aginor drew on pure saidin to become younger  and stronger but it wasn't enough and he was defeated and killed by Rand. . Not sure its was a shock that they were free, but think it was they assumed they were just being freed.  So to discover they  have been free long enough to take over nations I think was the big shock.  Not to mention  knowing they're free and discovering one is really close by can be another  reason she was so paniced.  I know there are mass murderers out there is alot different to discovering my neighbor is a mass murderer.

Edited by Sabio

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I looked again last night at the end of book one, and one of the two forsaken even mention that another, Ishamael, is also out and about. It just doesn't seem to make sense that after knowing that three are already out that afterwards everyone seems to forget this.

I remember reading somewhere that Ishamael is the one that apears on Rand's dreams, he presented himself as Ba'alzamon.

He appears in the prologue before Lews Therin killed himself, he is the one that removes the madness from the Dragon, just so he sees what he had done with his family.

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According to the companion Aginor drew on pure saidin to become younger  and stronger but it wasn't enough and he was defeated and killed by Rand. . Not sure its was a shock that they were free, but think it was they assumed they were just being freed.  So to discover they  have been free long enough to take over nations I think was the big shock.  Not to mention  knowing they're free and discovering one is really close by can be another  reason she was so paniced.  I know there are mass murderers out there is alot different to discovering my neighbor is a mass murderer.

Very nice comparison.  I think this describes it perfectly.

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from re-reading the scene, fire came out of Aginor's mouth and eyes.  not sure if Rand could have caused that at any time; or any channeler.

as far as I recall; Fire always started outside of its victims.

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Not sure, I think Rand made  some Trollocs burst into flames.  Who knows with that much power what's possible.  But the companion says Rand killed him.

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Aginor and Balthamel were sealed near the surface of the Bore, and as such aged immensely by the time of their release. After his release, Aginor attempted to control all of the One Power from the Eye of the World, there was an immense amount stored there, but he drained too much of it in a single time, so it was too much for hum to control and he was burned to ash. The green man killed Balthamel.

 

Ishamael (Ba' alzamon) was thought to only be partial sealed in the bore as he is able to touch the world and influence thing since the time the bore was sealed. The rest of the forsaken, besides these three, were believed to be freed at the same time.

 

It isn't that Rand can channel or is the Dragon reborn, as the seal on the bore was weakening and the pattern called for the dragon to be reborn to fight the dark one who would ultimately break out when all the seals(the thing in the eye with the horn and banner that was broken) are broken.

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from my understanding, the Companion is based on what was originally intended.  I recall another thread mentioning some differences between Companion and books; one being Bela's fate.

 

edit::

 

in books she dies; in companion she retires to some farm.

 

Edited by mb

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from re-reading the scene, fire came out of Aginor's mouth and eyes.  not sure if Rand could have caused that at any time; or any channeler.

as far as I recall; Fire always started outside of its victims.

The fire that is witnessed is due to Ishy's exclusive use of nothing but the True Power.  It takes a physical toll on the body of those that wield it.  We see that those who begin touching it have mood swings and that Saa, black flecks, pass over the eyes which shows both that the forsaken has been allowed to use the DO's essence, and indicates they have used it a lot.  The flames come and go, and remember, IShy is mostly mad due to his time being so close to the pattern, spun out every thousand years for about forty years before being pulled in again.  He even dares to think of himself as Baalzamon, and most of the time when we see the flames is when he is in the boys' dreams or in T'A'R/World of Dreams and he can make this effect appear on himself.

 

Oops.  After all that I see the question was on the first two forsaken to appear.  The flames are correct, a channeler can burn someone from the inside out as well as blast them on the outside with fire, especially a fireball.  Rand did ignite some trollocs, making them burst into flame, and I believe a Fade was killed with flames coming out of his mouth as it was one of very few ways to kill it without having to wait until it died naturally. 

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trollocs; found the scene last night.

Shadow Rising; at the Stone, after Rind picked up Callandor from his room.

 

 

do not recall it happening to any human character.

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Balthamor and Aginor are trapped "near the surface of the Bore" and thus are affected by time, becoming extremely aged, etc.

 

But Ishamael, who is only partially caught when the Bore is sealed, does not appear to be ravaged with age.

 

Why the difference?

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I think the effect is because he's only free of the seal for 40 years out of every thousand, meaning he'd only have aged 120 yrs since the Bore was sealed. A channeler of his strength(according to the Companion) would have a maximum lifespan of 900 yrs, which means appearance-wise, he'd probably only look maybe a decade or so older than he did in the Age of Legends.

Edited by Kesiera_Sedai

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trollocs; found the scene last night.

Shadow Rising; at the Stone, after Rind picked up Callandor from his room.

 

 

do not recall it happening to any human character.

In book 3, when the girls are kidnapped and knocked unconscious, they wake and proceed the kill the Myrdraal that arranged it...Horrible death..He was simultaneously burned from the inside out, crushed to the size of a basketball, and balefired. Edited by Kesiera_Sedai

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I think the effect is because he's only free of the seal for 40 years out of every thousand, meaning he'd only have aged 120 yrs since the Bore was sealed. A channeler of his strength(according to the Companion) would have a maximum lifespan of 900 yrs, which means appearance-wise, he'd probably only look maybe a decade or so older than he did in the Age of Legends.

 

Interesting. Why 40 years out of a thousand? Seems rather arbitrary.

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Seems about as arbitrary as an Age lasting 3,000 yrs, or Aginor & Balthamel existing all that time without eating or drinking anything...It's RJ's fantasy world, he made the rules I guess...

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So that makes me wonder...

 

Where is the Bore itself? Is it located somewhere in RJ's world, so you could follow a map and walk up to it? Or is it just a theoretical interdimensional concept?

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if I remember correctly, the Bore is actually located somewhere in TAR, outside of the Pattern... Shayol Gul is just the place in our world where it's most easily sensed because for some reason there is a "thinness" to the Pattern there.

Edited by Kesiera_Sedai

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Through rands journey through the pillars we know the bore was a physical thing in the real world, as a bit falling off was observed during the drilling process

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That was not the bore. That is the Sharom where the AoL conducted training and research. It was located at Collam Daan.

Edited by wotfan4472

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That was not the bore. That is the Sharom where the AoL conducted training and research. It was located at Collam Daan.

Haha nice edit :P

 

And true.

 

But I don't see any evidence to say that the bore is located in TAR, more that the thinness of the pattern means that the world's overlap at that point. Perrin sees them in the dreamworld, but theres no indication that he or lanfear are seen by the trio at the bore. The original bore would appear to be drilled at a place located in the real world, but that may just be my assumption, I thought the bore was drilled in Sharom, that's where Lanfear was and the guy we were with wanted to be there with her :unsure:

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That was not the bore. That is the Sharom where the AoL conducted training and research. It was located at Collam Daan.

Haha nice edit :P

 

And true.

 

But I don't see any evidence to say that the bore is located in TAR, more that the thinness of the pattern means that the world's overlap at that point. Perrin sees them in the dreamworld, but theres no indication that he or lanfear are seen by the trio at the bore*. The original bore would appear to be drilled at a place located in the real world, but that may just be my assumption, I thought the bore was drilled in Sharom, that's where Lanfear was and the guy we were with wanted to be there with her :unsure:

*nor any indication that the trio step into the dreamworld from their POV - it's also possibly unlikely that Alanna would know how to do that.

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@bfg,

"..but there's no indication that he or lanfear are seen by the trio at the bore."

actually,we do have a definite proof that the trio inside the pit of doom were 

unable to see perrin or lanfear:(perrin) "nynaeve? can you hear me? she blinked,

turning her head.yes,she could hear him! but she could not see him,it seemed.

she searched about,confused as she clung to the stone teeth of the floor..."

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