[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

[rackcitysteelers]

I get why people might find that scummy or whatever but I just misremembered some facts. Think what you will but I'm town and it was just a mistake.

[Shad_]

Need more from Pral and BFG, wouldn't mind more from Sooh and Hallia.

[Andrej]

  On 10/29/2015 at 3:18 AM, Zander said:

...i wish AJ was here to rate me on my gif game.....

10/10

[Askthepizzaguy]

Loooot to catch up on. But I've got two days off and lots of time.

 

I will be going to sleep after I'm reasonably caught up and have made comments. I'm reading more now.

 

Couple of things right off the bat- Thane's suspicion of me reads genuine. It's wrong, but.

 

He's connecting a couple of dots that I shouldn't have connected if I've never seen him play before. So once again we're going into my history and my meta.

 

I'm going to eat a lynch because of it, and that's.... not optimal.

 

That said, I don't think it is the worst outcome this round. I have done a lot of work and there's a lot of work left to be done, and, if I am not completely forgotten after I am dead, and you take to heart some of my good reads, I can be the day one lynch. Then you know those reads came from a townie.

 

Make me the competitor to whoever your top scum read is besides me. I am fine being resolved today one way or the other.

 

It's bad. Just so you know. But not the end of the human resistance.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Here's facts- I think several of the people going after me are townies, just not Dice.

 

If a bunch of people I say are townies say I'm scum, listen to them, so they do not repeat this exercise tomorrow.

 

And when I flip innocent, you do not discredit their judgments. Day one sucks. They're gonna be wrong at least once.

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/28/2015 at 6:16 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 5:38 PM, Taborline said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 5:21 PM, Shad_ said:

Do you think Dice and Nomi can be w/w or does a scum flip from one clear the other?

 

No, I don't think a flip would necessarily clear the other.

 

 

If Nomi is w I am literally never lynching dice

 

Dice can bus but I have NEVER seen him bus a partner like that. Dice instigated it IIRC

 

 

I am the king of bussing. I bus busses with bigger busses and then smash those busses with a Bussosaurus rex.

 

But you're right. Dice is clear if I'm a wolf.

 

That would be valuable information, if such a thing would ever happen this game. Sadly it will not.

[BFG]

  On 10/28/2015 at 8:59 AM, dicetosser1 said:

you missed the bit that actually got the vote bfg

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 1:07 AM, dicetosser1 said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 3:35 PM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 10:41 AM, Clovdyx said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 4:29 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 2:35 AM, Shad_ said:

Honestly Is not wanting players to be able to apply meta to you ever a pro-town thing?

If you lynch me on the basis of wanting to play with some openly stated anonymity, you will find a dead townie as a result.

 

I'm sorry, I don't believe it's necessary. My general level of experience and that I am playing under a pseudonym is freely volunteered meta information as it is game relevant. Exactly who I am is private, and that is my final word on the matter. With respect and love for my fellow players. :)

 

I'm nice person. Give me a chance to just be me without meta entanglements. It's all I want.

 

:)

 

I have no problem letting you be you, bit you can't possibly expect anyone to put stock into a meta "defense" (quotes because you weren't necessarily defending her, as much as avoiding persecuting her) you are providing when you are deliberately avoiding identifying yourself.

 

It's exceptionally easy for mafia to say "<person> looks like their town self", and looking good with a town flip. When you only know them from offsite we have no way of knowing if your statement is valid

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Even easier would be for a mafioso to simply reveal their identity, so as to make plain the truth of the statement. Many of you know Sooh from previous games. If I were telling pork pies, your own natives would be able to contradict me. I trust this group to be able to work it out- it's not particularly wise for a scum Nomi to defend a scum Sooh in this manner. The link becomes obvious and without the evidence of saying where I'm from and citing example, it's not as strong. And all this can be avoided simply by saying more about me. This is the problem of relying on meta. I have my reasons, and revealed to the game host who I am so as to maintain game integrity. But your reliance on meta has caused you to overlook the obvious, here. It's more harmful than helpful to rely on it, as your reasoning falls apart under its own logic. There's nothing at all to be gained by saying a mistruth about knowing Sili from previous games without it being true, especially if I'm not willing to back up such a statement. There's no there, there. So to speak. But a combination of normal distrust (its a mafia game) and reliance on meta has led you to an unreasonable position. All I ask is that you take a look at it with an objective eye, and you'll form the right conclusions.

 

One has little to do with the other- I can absolutely be mafia. But not for such a reason. Judge me on my merits this game, don't rely on histories.

 

If I have nefarious aims for saying this or that about certain players, the link is still there, openly, regardless of the truth about my meta. Knowing exactly what it is doesn't change that fact. So you're missing nothing that enables you to solve it. It's a quite reasonable position to say, that's sufficient data. As a fellow mafia player, you can solve the game based on that, you need no more.

 

I trust this settles this unimportant matter.

 

 

Carry on.

 

 

Ok i am having an issue with this. For me its not about you meta. This game is about trust. developing trust in those you think town. Not trusting those you dont think are town. You start in the middle and start leaning one way or another based on what is said and for some on meta true. Thing is this "im not telling you guys who I really am" thing is rasing my hackles. and not in the sense of private info like saying i live in such and such but in that it has been so out there.  Add to that its annoying me cause Im feeling like Ive seen a Nomi Sunrider around DM before. its an itch i cant get. Then theres the fact that DM has been screwed by alt accounts before and actually has a policy about them. 

 

By it being so open that you are not sharing everything openly I automatically start to lean Mafia on your slot.

 

Then theres this below

 

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 5:04 PM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 4:53 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 10/27/2015 at 4:34 PM, Nomi Sunrider said:

Oh that's right, Rack is from another forum, this is his first game here, just noticed from the sign-up thread. Am I interpreting that correctly, Cory? You seem to have met elsewhere. I have my suspicions but it just seems kinda rude to lynch Rack day one as our way of welcoming him here.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Now taking bets this is why I die if Rack's guilty.

 

 

Rack is from WalterFootball, the origin of me and Clov.

 

 

He does look odd in the generic sense. I think his approach he's taking is useful as scum because it reveals essentially zero about his team even if he's caught. That said, without metadata I can't say he's being different. Just that I generally distrust players who share as little as possible and would lynch them in a neutral setting over those who give me more to digest. My gut says lynch but my experience is telling me I'm policy lynching and playing it safe and that's not the same as finding a scum day one. And the solution to a player who is revealing little, who is a townie, is to give them more time to reveal more. But the wiring is still all backwards and I want to make them die now, to be safe.

 

My day ones are usually crap, and this is the sort of reason why. Rack is an unknown quantity, much like Sooh was. Yet I'm biased to give more time to Sooh because I know that's usually a fruitful option.

 

My conclusion is that I'm not the best judge of what we should do about Rack right now. I'm going to defer to you because I trust that you're a townie and that you would make a better judgement about Rack than I can at the present time. This post is going to sound weird to like 10 people.

 

 

 

seeing the irony here?? 

 

So right now Im wanting to unvote vote Nomi  you can say its cruddy reasoning but the fact is you are giving me reason to distrust you.

 

 

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 6:23 AM, dicetosser1 said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 5:30 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

5) Dice- My confidence level here is about 75%. I think he blundered his alignment away when he chose his target and reasoning for today. There's a big gap between him and all my other suspects. Note how I reacted to all the other suspicion in my direction this game. Dice is attacking something he feels he can make look bad, and there's an agenda behind his suspicions which does not exist in anyone else who has put my name forward. It's clear that he's the outlier.

 

Actually I attacked something I actually feel is bad. You contradict ureself and if you have a look thru my game history you will see I jump on people for that.

 

I DO have a problem with this whole Ive got a secret but the mod knows.

 

On a game level it makes me distrust you right off the bat because you are hiding something. Something that based on what you have said would allow some people to have expectations of or ways to read you. You have done nothing this game that overrides that instant suspicion and then you say you lynch people for doing exactly what you are doing. But of course we shouldnt lynch you! NO NONO!  I call bullshanks. And think you should be lynched

 

On a site level  If I find out you are a regular player from here using an ALT account there will be a complaint headed the mods way.

 

 

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 8:31 AM, dicetosser1 said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 7:09 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

But that's the difference. A townie's opinion can be stubborn, but it's based on suspicion. Yours is based on a policy of lynching whatever you can call hypocritical, inconsistent, or hidden.

 

this here is why i asked you that. You are saying a TOWNIE can be these things. So it seems you are saying a MAFIA cant be. Hence I asked. but somehow that got you VERY defensive.

 

I wonder why??

 

Your response in 916 doesnt answer my question. Instead you start talking about townies again. Lumping yourself in with them and nattering like they are the only thing in this game. Hate to tell you but there are mafia here somewhere  as im sure you are VERY aware of  but you dont want to discuss mafia do you? All those things can apply to mafia as well 

 

How do you find mafia? One of the things you look for is inconsistencies.  You look for where they say they will do this  but then dont do it. Thats exactly what you did.  You said you would normally vote someone who is not sharing openly. but you are doing exactly that. and yet I shouldnt vote you?  

 

 

 

As for ure challenge??  LMAO I have jumped at Sili for being inconsistent with his reads and play SOOOOOO many times ive lost count.   This time? I think he is town. he is probably one of my strongest reads actually.

 

  I think hell just got snowed in.

 

 

So do you wanna rail some more or can we just lynch you now and move on with winning the game for town?

 

 

 

In the posts above it seems to be about the 'inconsistency' that Nomi is hiding who he really is while simultaneously berating others for hiding reads/thoughts/etc. Yet I don't view this as a inconsistency, as the two are separate. Nomi's been pretty open about what they're thinking, and playing under an alt is null.

 

On the other hand I kind of want to clear you for the tone of the following post (and probably the 2 you made while I was around yesterday).

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 9:49 AM, dicetosser1 said:

Shouldnt you slap my face with a glove while being all dramatic and issuing challenges?

 

 

its pretty simple  

 

 

you say you would lynch rack for not sharing yet you have purposely set things so you arnt honestly sharing. You have consciously come into this game hiding things that people could use to read you. You even pretty much stated as much.

 

You also state that ud vote rack for that but you dont. like i said  say one thing do another.. Im not talking about OTHER people Im talking about YOUR words and actions and the fact that they differ.

 

 

 

your "challenge"     (I REALLY want a glove right now)

 

I never lied. I absolutely think you are saying one thing and doing another. Therefore I think you are mafia and im putting my vote where my mouth is.

 

Im not mischaracterizing you I took your own words compared them to your actions. Then i voted.

 

As for solving method   there are things I look for   like this  but largely im a gut player. I suck at making cases and even when I KNOW someones mafia i tend to get ignored until someone with clout agrees with me and makes a case.

 

I look for mafia   not town. Thats corys gig  my value in this game? the fact that im hunting for scum. I may not do it your way or in a way you recognise but thats what im doing. All I gotta do is find 1 mafia if I can. And i think i found one.

 

You dont HAVE to exert pressure to scum hunt. Sometimes hunting can seem real innocent.

 

Actually i dont think im particularly defensive  ive been going after you not defending. this post is about as close as ive come really and thats in answer to u. If you compare the tone of ure essay answers to mine you can see the difference. 

 

 

So there you go  hope you enjoy that.  other then lynching you im not particularly interested in what else you have to say and im not going to keep rehashing the same things over and over.

 

I think ure mafia therefore I want you gone.

I'll look back at the Rack thing, but if I recall correctly the reason for the none vote was because Rack's new to the site?

 

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/28/2015 at 8:13 PM, Thane Vakarian said:

i sorta get the feeling that Nomi would be interesting to lynch. Followed by Rack, perhaps Hallia.

 

Tabor, you go against the grain, i like that. Though i would find it interesting to see why i am so low on your list? You think Dice is wolf and i'm covering for him?  

 

I want Dice caught if he's a wolf.

 

All I want is your personal guarantee he doesn't survive the game when I flip townie. Unless the scums are all dead first.

 

Can you do that?

 

It doesn't have to be tonight or tomorrow day or tomorrow night. But his alignment gets resolved, then I return to the netherworld of the Force with optimism.

 

That's going to resolve a LOT of the early game question marks and move on to scums much faster than letting the question mark above my head or Dice's fester.

 

I don't think you're scum with Dice. 90% sure that's not the case.

[BFG]

  On 10/28/2015 at 3:13 PM, Clovdyx said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 3:07 PM, cory caboose said:

Yes but I don't remember if I learned anything

 

I remember your post about BFG and it being what you'd do or something

 

Should I look again? Am I missing something

Her initial post to me was a reference to a conversation she and I had in pm about a week ago (how we never had a good town/town game).

 

It was perfectly within the rules to bring up, but kinda ehhh to me. Which is why I said I'd totally do it ldo

 

You can start talking to me now instead of about me? (same for Cory)

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Please?

 

 

 

What do you mean by ehhh?

 

Also TQ?

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/29/2015 at 1:31 AM, Zander said:

 

  On 10/29/2015 at 1:15 AM, cory caboose said:

Zander's a one-time pupil and is now our official Crayons 101 instructor.

 

 

I always win at Crayons ldo....thats why i own at Draw It!!!!!

 

 

Lemons are yellow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As relates to the ongoing back and forth in 1245-

 

Here are your evidences;

 

1) Unknown player

2) Knows stuff about other players here

 

Assume is mafia.

 

3) Reveals knows stuff about other players here? One of the first conclusions you'd draw is someone is feeding me info via QT.

 

That wise?

 

And, do I strike you as the sort of player to do that as a mistake? Based purely on what you've seen so far.

 

Question is for everyone. Leave aside Dice for the moment, where's my alignment sitting after that thought experiment?

[Nolder]

This might no longer be relevant as I'm having trouble keeping up with the game but I'd like to ask you all to drop discussion of Nomi in relation to his identity. He's told me who he is and why he is going by Nomi here on DM. It is not relevant to this game in any way and the only reason anyone should even want to know anyway is for meta reasons and plain curiosity. He didn't ask me to do this by the way, I just noticed some people talking about it awhile back and wanted to address it. If anyone has any more questions or concerns please PM them to me so as not to derail the game any further with this matter. Thank you.

[Nolder]

Votecount

Nomi - Clov, Dice, Thane, Corlanna (4)

Rack - Sili, Yates, Lenlo (3)

Dice - Nomi, Hallia (2)

Zander - Pral  (1)

Lenlo - Zander (1)

Hallia - Sooh (1)

Taborline - Shad (1)

 

 

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Deadline: Friday 30th 3PM PST.

 

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I really do appreciate where the curiosity comes from.

 

I have written and rewritten this post four times over the past hour. I have way too many thoughts to share and I can't get them all said concisely or in a way I think will be meaningful to most people. It's been frustrating but a thought I feel is important for whatever reason keeps carrying over to each version. So let me just focus on that one thought and see if I can flesh that one out meaningfully.

 

In these games knowledge is power. Much more powerful than experience, more powerful than claims, more powerful than a vote record. Knowledge trumps everything. Town is only ever at a disadvantage because they do not know. I fully understand the emphatic need to know as much as possible, and the distrust and concern it brings when anyone leaves anything off the table and then acknowledges that fact.

 

Why do hosts add masons, detectives, and other information roles to the town side? Because it feels so much better when they know something, it's a starting point. A solid foundation of knowledge to begin from and build upon. Why do players like those roles, or enjoy being scumbags? Because part of the game is revealed to you, and that's when you feel more confident, like you can solve it better now.

 

And town does work better, when they're not in the dark. So does mafia, the more they know, the more powerful they become as well, to the point where they can adapt and anticipate their game and run circles around the town. But usually outside knowledge is very valuable and highly desirous from a townie standpoint.

 

Those are the tools we want. We want as much data as possible to make the best possible decisions.

 

In this game, I have not given away everything. I have instead given away almost everything. All the thoughts contained within, my doubts, my suspicions, my villagers, my methods, my reasons. It's day one, the hardest day. I've worked hard to develop something from a starting point of no knowledge. If I've made gains it's because of my teammates, not my own efforts. Effort means little.

 

I can't read Zander unless Zander posts, and tells me what he's thinking. I can't read Sili unless Sili shows me what his mental state is. I can't look at Cory and say yeah, his tone is excellent, unless he sits there and posts things which have excellent tone.

 

You're all leaving the pieces for me to find. I'm trying, so hard, to find them.

 

In return, I'm trying to leave all my pieces out there, should I amend that to, all the ones you need.

 

I know you want more. But knowledge is power, and I'm giving you a lot of it.

 

I'm telling you I'm not a newbie.

I've referenced playing with or spectating several players this game.

I've demonstrated that and showed how that meta has influenced my judgments so far.

I've revealed suspicions on people and said why I was or wasn't following up on them.

I've revealed trust in people and explained in as much detail I can muster at this early juncture to say why I trust them.

I've said these are the people you don't lynch even if they mislynch me, and because why.

I've responded to almost every other question.

 

I'm not holding back, I'm not holding it in. I'm leaving questions hanging over my head, because rather than play it as anonymously as possible, I've attempted to show you who I am. Beyond the handle, beyond the avatar, beyond the meta information. I've demonstrated what's going on, on the inside. That's what you need to solve me. It may not be what you want.

 

You know me based on my words, trust them. A voice inside me spoke those words into being. My motives, my idiosyncrasies, my humor, my ups and downs. Revealing more about me but not all, necessarily leads to more questions. And I've not shied from them. I welcome them all, I've answered them all. I want you to know who I am, I'm not trying to hide from you.

 

That's the short version of what I want to say.

 

You don't need anything more than this. You don't need additional time. You don't need a detective result. You don't need a single flip this game to read me right now. You can switch off your targeting computer.

 

Let go of what you want and the tools you think you need. All you ever needed to read me was your self.

 

What is Nomi's alignment?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I need more than day one to give you more than I have, or to find more than I've found.

[Clovdyx]

  On 10/29/2015 at 8:17 AM, BFG said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 3:13 PM, Clovdyx said:

 

  On 10/28/2015 at 3:07 PM, cory caboose said:

Yes but I don't remember if I learned anythingI remember your post about BFG and it being what you'd do or somethingShould I look again? Am I missing something

Her initial post to me was a reference to a conversation she and I had in pm about a week ago (how we never had a good town/town game).It was perfectly within the rules to bring up, but kinda ehhh to me. Which is why I said I'd totally do it ldo

You can start talking to me now instead of about me? (same for Cory)

  Reveal hidden contents

Please?

What do you mean by ehhh?Also TQ?

First of all, I want you to know how proud of you I am. You did great. <3

 

Ehhh... I don't know. I just saw the post and knew instantly what you meant, and it just felt.. Cheap? I don't really know how to explain it. Almost like you were trying to get a town read for nothing.

 

TQ - Town queen :p

[Clovdyx]

How confident are you about dice, BFG?

[Askthepizzaguy]

[unvote]
 

Not that I have been persuaded of his innocence. But let's all observe what happens now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Let's do that in an unedited post.

 

[unvote]

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/29/2015 at 4:45 AM, rackcitysteelers said:

I get why people might find that scummy or whatever but I just misremembered some facts. Think what you will but I'm town and it was just a mistake.

Sounds like a situation where no matter what you did there, you wouldn't have gotten out of it without attracting more suspicion.

 

Had you left your vote on Zander without comment, while he became consensus townie, it would look bad.

 

If you tried to push him even further, due to votes on you, it would look like panic.

 

If you unvote him, it also looks bad because of what cory said.

 

What's the solution? How do you win today?

 

Edit- Thinking past that decision, I mean. Zander is unvoted, now, what's the next move?

[Zander?]

  On 10/29/2015 at 5:56 AM, Andrej said:

 

  On 10/29/2015 at 3:18 AM, Zander said:

...i wish AJ was here to rate me on my gif game.....

10/10

 

 

 

 

 

[Zander?]

  On 10/29/2015 at 8:21 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

  On 10/29/2015 at 1:31 AM, Zander said:

 

  On 10/29/2015 at 1:15 AM, cory caboose said:

Zander's a one-time pupil and is now our official Crayons 101 instructor.

 

 

I always win at Crayons ldo....thats why i own at Draw It!!!!!

 

 

Lemons are yellow.

 

 

:wub:

[Pralaya]

  On 10/28/2015 at 8:12 PM, cory caboose said:

 

Honestly a good portion is if you die and are town it's not a devastating loss

 

I don't mean that as an insult but I don't know how to say that nicely

 

Would rather leave things to people who don't tend to miss 2-3 day spans

 

And in Ragnarok I was voting Verbal on d1 (go look!) even though I was responsible for your lynch and you REFUSED to vote Verbal and tunneled some obvious villager instead. Think it was Mish. So taunt all you want

 

 

And, that's how you got the cop killed in that game. I am not taunting here, but you tend to have a massive confirmation bias in trying to read me and that is annoying to see every game. You basically try to come up with reasons to look at me as scum and then end with with nonsensical reasons how my playstyle is different this game as compared to the previous. The only common thing about my games is that I am a low-poster D1 and D2. 

 

The reason for that is that I hate D1s. I find it extremely difficult to catch up 15+ pages per day. Hence, I tend to be more active and effective D3+ when the post count has toned down, when I have more information due to flips and wagons etc. D1 is all about tone/meta based reasoning which in most cases is just erroneous and like a dart thrown around. So, if I am inactive D1 it is by preference and not necessarily based on alignment. 

 

Have at it however you want but that is how I play. 

[Shad_]

Well, nothing that's been said over night really changes my thoughts on anything, though it may limit my capacity to explain them when that time comes.

 

But I do have to object to one thing: I have seen green lemons which were not limes.

[Cory Caboose]

  On 10/29/2015 at 12:03 PM, Pralaya said:

And, that's how you got the cop killed in that game. I am not taunting here, but you tend to have a massive confirmation bias in trying to read me and that is annoying to see every game. You basically try to come up with reasons to look at me as scum and then end with with nonsensical reasons how my playstyle is different this game as compared to the previous. The only common thing about my games is that I am a low-poster D1 and D2. 

 

The reason for that is that I hate D1s. I find it extremely difficult to catch up 15+ pages per day. Hence, I tend to be more active and effective D3+ when the post count has toned down, when I have more information due to flips and wagons etc. D1 is all about tone/meta based reasoning which in most cases is just erroneous and like a dart thrown around. So, if I am inactive D1 it is by preference and not necessarily based on alignment. 

 

Have at it however you want but that is how I play. 

 

The problem is that your playstyle doesn't keep you from ever randing wolf. You can lecture me on how you were a villager in Ragnarok, but I've seen games where you've gone deep as a wolf despite contributing very little and players just went "Oh it's just Pral being Pral".

 

You don't get a free villager read for being you, and other players are more villagery for you, so exactly why do you deserve to be higher in my PoE?

 

If you think D1 is erroneous or meaningless I have no idea what to tell you. I have something like a ~60% d1 wolf lynch rate, and games where villages lynch wolves on d1 end in village victories a very good clip of the time because there is a great deal to glean from it.

 

Why are you a villager, Pral? Besides that this is "how you always play". I don't care at all how you play, I care about whether or not you are a villager. Capiche?