Frozen Mafia Game Thread--GAME OVER--MAFIA WIN

[Pralaya]

Also, agree with AJ on Razen. That suffers from the same thing I was talking about Shad - making it much bigger than what it is supposed to be - on top of misrepping. His vote on AJ was really bad.

[Thane Vakarian]

a wild Pralaya has appeared! 

 

*throws pokeball*

 

oh...

 

wait....

 

nvm....

 

this is the most i've seen you posting on a D1 before a deadline was even set. Keep it up

[Shad_]

so dont sit there and tell me what im thinking. If u want to say i was backtracking lol then make an argument. But do not tell me i cleared someone when i have said a dozen times i am not.

 

You're getting very hung up on this point.  It surprises me that you don't see where people are coming from.  Basically a number of people have used "clearing" Sooh and "town reading" Sooh interchangeably, and in a casual sense I think that's fine.  You could come in and spell out the difference as you see it.  Something like "listen, I take 'clear' to mean I'm pretty solidly convinced that someone is town, and I don't feel that way about Sooh.  I feel that she's trending town so far but has a lot left to prove before I'd 'clear' her."  That's kind of what I think you're saying at least.  But if you just keep denying that you've 'cleared' her without defining what you mean, people will keep coming back with the post where you called her town.  I'm not sure what this business of getting defensive but not really trying to resolve the issue means for you.  I think most scum would seek clarity to pull themselves out of the spotlight.  Eh, I need to check your Usual Suspects game again.  You were pretty convincingly town there imo so I didn't pay much attention to you.

[Thane Vakarian]

hiya Shad....

 

Pral does make a point about your post. What was your intention with it?

[Pralaya]

a wild Pralaya has appeared! 

 

*throws pokeball*

 

oh...

 

wait....

 

nvm....

 

this is the most i've seen you posting on a D1 before a deadline was even set. Keep it up

h

[Shad_]

 

 

Last of it..

 

 

 

 

 

sili and dice both kinda aggresive in the thread.... dunno what to make of that. Seen something from Sili that i will keep my eye on, not revealing that bit yet.

I wonder if it's the same that I see.

 

that would be interesting to see.... i think it's something else, would be surprised if it's the same *nods*

 

Gross. So this feels like they're working together and furthering the "trap". I can't explain better why I don't like it...but at this point just say what it is or don't say anything at all.

 

-snip-

 

 

Bold: Fair enough.

Underlined Teal: No that's not what Dice was saying...the underlined is a misrep and a scummy push. (leaning orange on Razen for that).

Underlined Italics: Considering the purple and how you explained it is wrong, this is a further misrep and is just a gross push. The rest of the teal is just more Razen spinning things to fit is agenda.

 

 

-snip-

 

Not sure on Sili yet as I tend to misread him.  I'll go back through on the computer where I can multi quote and comment easier.

 

 

Two parts I want to address:

 

The first is regarding the Thane/Sooh interaction over Dice/Sili.  I snipped the part where Kaylee pointed out that she liked Thane's observation that Sili had contradicted himself.  But before she mentioned that point, she mentions she feels like Thane and Sooh are working together to further a trap.  A trap takes coordination - coordination that I find highly unlikely at this stage of the game from town.  If she feels that this is indeed a trap, then that should be two scum down.  But no.  She backs off of that line of thought.  I wonder why? 

 

The only agenda I'm spinning is winning this game for town.

 

Hmmm... I think Kaylee's concern about Thane and Sooh working together to build a trap is a bit reaching. They might have honestly both seen something they didn't want to point out until the situation had played out further.  But you're saying a trap takes coordination, and I can't buy into that as a general rule.  There have been plenty of times as town that I've seen a player behave cryptically and I've pretended like I knew what they were thinking though I didn't have a clue, just to see who would get nervous.  I don't think Sooh is someone who would do that though.  At least not as town.  She was a pretty straight shooter in Pulp Fiction imo.  I think it's more likely that she either really did see something (which she's going to have to explain to us eventually) or she's scum, null regarding Thane there because it could just be buddying.  It's null until she acts on what she saw and I don't know that I'd carry out a lynch based strictly on my reasoning here.

 

What I do take from your post is that it's very unlikely you and Kaylee are w/w.  If so you just dismantled your scum mate's soft push while turning attention onto her.  So I'll pocket that bit of solve.

[Shad_]

hiya Shad....

 

Pral does make a point about your post. What was your intention with it?

 

Morning Thane, busy day, dunno if I'll catch up on all the over night posts before I have to take off or not.

[Shad_]

Razen seems to be playing the "all players are scummy until proven otherwise"-game. That is something I have come to expect from a scum player rather than a townie. 

 

Shad, I like your tone so far this game. 

 

I literally just thought that before reading this post, but I need to think on it a while yet.

[Shad_]

Town points to Sooh for mind meld?  Maybe.

[Shad_]

 

 

Shad, dice and Kaylee all not in my wtl pile for today *nods*

 

Sili... the more you post, the more it sounds like you're struggling to me to be honest. For most people, you are not easy to read. And i've seen you bite the dust for that before. If you're town, maybe you'd need to rethink your approach on this game, buddy. 

 

ftr: if you're wolf, please go on *nods*

Nah.

 

If you can't tell I'm joking when I say I am easy to read after I hint it, then that's on you.

 

IF you were easier to read, we'd be able to clear you as town and move on to other people though... This way, you're staying in the wtl list. Just saying...

 

 

Eh can't say I'm wtl on Sili right now.  I think he's been excessively feisty and isn't articulating his thoughts well.  I don't know what that means about his alignment but I'm not jumping to scum over it.  I think he's a good case for an out-of-game ISO if I find the time.

 

[Sooh]

 

 

 

Last of it..

 

 

 

 

 

sili and dice both kinda aggresive in the thread.... dunno what to make of that. Seen something from Sili that i will keep my eye on, not revealing that bit yet.

I wonder if it's the same that I see.

 

that would be interesting to see.... i think it's something else, would be surprised if it's the same *nods*

 

Gross. So this feels like they're working together and furthering the "trap". I can't explain better why I don't like it...but at this point just say what it is or don't say anything at all.

 

-snip-

 

 

Bold: Fair enough.

Underlined Teal: No that's not what Dice was saying...the underlined is a misrep and a scummy push. (leaning orange on Razen for that).

Underlined Italics: Considering the purple and how you explained it is wrong, this is a further misrep and is just a gross push. The rest of the teal is just more Razen spinning things to fit is agenda.

 

 

-snip-

 

Not sure on Sili yet as I tend to misread him.  I'll go back through on the computer where I can multi quote and comment easier.

 

 

Two parts I want to address:

 

The first is regarding the Thane/Sooh interaction over Dice/Sili.  I snipped the part where Kaylee pointed out that she liked Thane's observation that Sili had contradicted himself.  But before she mentioned that point, she mentions she feels like Thane and Sooh are working together to further a trap.  A trap takes coordination - coordination that I find highly unlikely at this stage of the game from town.  If she feels that this is indeed a trap, then that should be two scum down.  But no.  She backs off of that line of thought.  I wonder why? 

 

The only agenda I'm spinning is winning this game for town.

 

Hmmm... I think Kaylee's concern about Thane and Sooh working together to build a trap is a bit reaching. They might have honestly both seen something they didn't want to point out until the situation had played out further.  But you're saying a trap takes coordination, and I can't buy into that as a general rule.  There have been plenty of times as town that I've seen a player behave cryptically and I've pretended like I knew what they were thinking though I didn't have a clue, just to see who would get nervous.  I don't think Sooh is someone who would do that though.  At least not as town.  She was a pretty straight shooter in Pulp Fiction imo.  I think it's more likely that she either really did see something (which she's going to have to explain to us eventually) or she's scum, null regarding Thane there because it could just be buddying.  It's null until she acts on what she saw and I don't know that I'd carry out a lynch based strictly on my reasoning here.

 

What I do take from your post is that it's very unlikely you and Kaylee are w/w.  If so you just dismantled your scum mate's soft push while turning attention onto her.  So I'll pocket that bit of solve.

 

I genuinely thought I had a hunch. I'm not as sure anymore, but like you said I need more time. I will elaborate at an appropriate time though. 

 

I do believe you're town, Shad. At least that's where you're at for me for now. 

 

Pral also seems towny.

[Shad_]

Before, when I was a soab wolf, I was real easy to read though. When I was lynched it was usually due to two factors: A bad claim, or a couple teammates tunneling me and a lot of wolves helping.

 

Right now, the only true case on me is I treat Sooh and Zander differently, and as every person in this game should know: that is completely rational. Only Dice had an issue with it, but lol Dice.

 

Since then, I treated Dice with pure contempt, which Kaylee took as emo (but it isn't), and Dice took as passive-aggressive (but actually I was hitting him over the head loud and clear).

 

So in summary, I laught at the people fos'ing me. If you want to lynch me, try harder imo.

 

I've seen you brag about how your scum game has improved a lot.  Meh, I don't like the "I'm an easy catch as scum" argument.

[Razen]

 

[unvote]

 

[v]Razen[/v]

 

FTR - I never really had a reason to vote Sili. I wasn't paying that close of attention to the thread while I was enjoying my resort visit, I saw the two of them arguing and how Dice was engaging so I decided to throw down my vote without saying anything to see how people handled it. Basically no one said anything, which is fine, except a few.

 

Sili called it a bad vote. This is null.

 

Sooh/Kaylee (don't remember which now) said they didn't like me not explaining it. This is fine too.

 

The best reaction I got to the vote, by far, was Razen's ability to take a vote with no stated reason and apply it negatively without doing any sort of investigation first. At the very least, he isn't playing objectively and I have issue with that. People assume a lot in this game, but there's always two sides to the coin. If he wanted to assume that I was sheeping Dice, that would be okay, but only if he acknowledged that I could have been doing something else. Instead he hard labels it as something, essentially fabricating his own reason to vote me, and runs with it.

 

thats pretty much what i was assuming. i figured you just followed my gut.

 

as far as Razen he is the only one other then sili im willing to vote. He pinged me as soon as he started posting re me and sili.

 

heres the thing tho   my thinking? Razen and sili are tied together. My preferred order is sili then razen. Sili flips scum as i think he does that confirms razen for me

 

How are we tied together?  I don't think I've said anything regarding Sili outside of how the two of you interacted and asking Kaylee what she thought about him at the moment.  I don't like how you're tying my flip to how he flips.

 

Great. Not a lot to catch up :thumb up:. Always love when that happens.

 

So, the "big" thing that has happened so far is the dice/sili argument. Notice the BIG in quotes. Yeah, it is a minor thing at best. Sili does what sili does on D1 - which is to FoS as many people as he can. I have a town feel of him because of that. As scum he is more methodological - like making lists etc. Dice is also being dice - jumping quickly on a minor thing. I agree that is a v/v argument in the beginning.

 

What I am not liking are those who are making a mountain out of the molehill.

I can't speak to what Sili does as town and as scum.  Only game I've played with him is TUS, and that is not a normal game to be basing things off of.  But I haven't seen the whole "FoS as many people as he can" thing.  He pushed Dice hard, and now seems to be on the defensive over his "Sooh town" post that everyone keeps hammering.  He posted a list a couple pages back with a couple people in yellow, but no real explanations as to why.  Is that typical?

 

 

 

so dont sit there and tell me what im thinking. If u want to say i was backtracking lol then make an argument. But do not tell me i cleared someone when i have said a dozen times i am not.

 

You're getting very hung up on this point.  It surprises me that you don't see where people are coming from.  Basically a number of people have used "clearing" Sooh and "town reading" Sooh interchangeably, and in a casual sense I think that's fine.  You could come in and spell out the difference as you see it.  Something like "listen, I take 'clear' to mean I'm pretty solidly convinced that someone is town, and I don't feel that way about Sooh.  I feel that she's trending town so far but has a lot left to prove before I'd 'clear' her."  That's kind of what I think you're saying at least.  But if you just keep denying that you've 'cleared' her without defining what you mean, people will keep coming back with the post where you called her town.  I'm not sure what this business of getting defensive but not really trying to resolve the issue means for you.  I think most scum would seek clarity to pull themselves out of the spotlight.  Eh, I need to check your Usual Suspects game again.  You were pretty convincingly town there imo so I didn't pay much attention to you.

 

In a game where we were ALL scum of some sort - so I'm not sure the bold is completely accurate.  I like the way you articulate your thoughts about the "Sooh town" point.  It's pretty much the same conclusion I was reaching a while back when I did my thing on Dice, and I don't like how people are constantly hammering that home again, and again.

[Razen]

"Sooh town"

 

sounds to me more like a hot read than a hard clear.

 

This argument has gone on long enough.

 

Dice/Sili probably v/v

The bold is what I was thinking as well.  So I'm confused why people are seeing it that way?

 

 

I don't feel like Razen tackling AJ over his vote after Dice made a bad argument is terrible though.

 

I mean, I myself concluded either

 

a) AJ scanned Dice's argument and sided with him before leaving

b) AJ is voting me as a reaction test

 

So someone taking a) seriously doesn't shock me, even if there is a little cognitive dissonance in reading both AJ and I scum.

If this is about me - where did I read you scum?  I don't think I've listed what I thought about anyone yet.  I didn't like AJ's unexplained vote yesterday, and I said as much.

 

I don't think Dice realized he was implying he cleared Zander by criticizing me for having a double standard.

 

As for Razen, his pov and post is... disconnected. I don't really understand it. It's not... uhm, coherent I guess is the best word.

This is the point I was trying to get at when I posted about this initially.  But he did confirm it - I need to look back and see if it was before he made this post or after.

 

1. Razen

2. Shad

3. Kronos

4. Verbal

5. Kaylee

6. Hallia

7. Sooh

8. dice

9. Andrej

10. Zander

11. Pral

12. Thane

13. Sili

This is the list I was looking for before.  Note to self: don't ever use yellow on this site, it makes your eyes bleed.  But the point comes across - at this point, suspecting Hallia, AJ, and Thane.  He updated this a bit later with better explanations.

[Shad_]

Made it to the top of page 10, this has been a meaty game and I'm liking it.  Loooong day ahead of me, I'll try to catch up on my phone but probably won't be posting much.  I like Thane's level of involvement and I'll hesitantly say that I'm leaning town on him and Sooh, stronger town on Dice, honestly confused about Sili.  Razen has pinged me the most.  I liked Kaylee's tone in catch-up but not some of her conclusions.  Never played with her before.  She strikes me as someone whose tone would be fairly indicative?

[Shad_]

^ Mind you this read isn't current to when I posted it.

[Shad_]

 

 

so dont sit there and tell me what im thinking. If u want to say i was backtracking lol then make an argument. But do not tell me i cleared someone when i have said a dozen times i am not.

 

You're getting very hung up on this point.  It surprises me that you don't see where people are coming from.  Basically a number of people have used "clearing" Sooh and "town reading" Sooh interchangeably, and in a casual sense I think that's fine.  You could come in and spell out the difference as you see it.  Something like "listen, I take 'clear' to mean I'm pretty solidly convinced that someone is town, and I don't feel that way about Sooh.  I feel that she's trending town so far but has a lot left to prove before I'd 'clear' her."  That's kind of what I think you're saying at least.  But if you just keep denying that you've 'cleared' her without defining what you mean, people will keep coming back with the post where you called her town.  I'm not sure what this business of getting defensive but not really trying to resolve the issue means for you.  I think most scum would seek clarity to pull themselves out of the spotlight.  Eh, I need to check your Usual Suspects game again.  You were pretty convincingly town there imo so I didn't pay much attention to you.

 

In a game where we were ALL scum of some sort - so I'm not sure the bold is completely accurate.  I like the way you articulate your thoughts about the "Sooh town" point.  It's pretty much the same conclusion I was reaching a while back when I did my thing on Dice, and I don't like how people are constantly hammering that home again, and again.

 

Quick answer here, D1 we were all hunting for mislynch targets because we thought there were 15 town in the game.  Off the top of my head right now the four players I felt were town telling too hard to ever be mislynch options were you, Sili, Yates, and Cory, so I didn't pay terribly much attention to you and didn't get as firm of a grasp of your scum games for it.

[Razen]

Players

1. Razen - long posts. haven't read in full.

2. Shad - long posts. good content. town read.

3. Kronos - has he posted?

4. Verbal - weekend.

5. Kaylee - optimistically town. still quite skeptical though, so I fluxuate.

6. Hallia - eh, gun to head: town.  it's weird. she needs to explain her read on dice.

7. Sooh - town for tone. it's a tone read.

8. dice - meh - town. his meta is easy to fake as a wolf though, so like normal, unless i have something else to go on, this is just a tone read.

9. Andrej - seems apathetic to me. more than normal. commenting Razen outs himself and not quoting the passage for instance.

10. Zander - I can understand why he voted me from a town pov.

11. Pral - can't remember if he's posted.

12. Thane - trouble posting game-related content.

13. Sili - charming.

 

From the last list to this one, there are a couple of things I noticed.  The first - Hallia goes from a yellow read to a gun to head town read, even though I don't think she posted very much in the meantime?  How does that change so suddenly?  From what I've seen of AJ in other games, I wouldn't call him apathetic.  But that is a very small sample size, however.  Your read of him fits from your earlier list.

[Razen]

And yup!  Thought so - Hallia didn't post at all between Sili's first list on pg. 7 and the one I quoted above on pg. 10.  So how does that flip in his read on her work, baring that in mind?  I can understand if it's the thought of re-evaluation, but it does contradict itself at first glance without explanation.  There wasn't new information from her that would prompt this, so I'd kind of like to see that expanded upon.

[Andrej]

You adjust quickly Razen.

[Verbal32]

Sili and Dice are both trying to misrep each other. I don't see where Dice said he was clearing Zander - and I don't see where Sili said he was clearing Sooh. Sili gave a reason after he posted that Sooh was town - he believes she has difficulty faking tone. Dice's only mentions of Zander came when he voted him.

 

 

@ Sili - If you felt people were clearing Zander too early - who are they besides Dice? You posted this before Dice had even posted his first post:

 

Uh. Ppl clearing zander too fast.

 

Sooh town.

Why aren't you pushing those people over Dice then?

 

But what I find interesting is that we have two quick unexplained votes on Sili - and two people sitting on the fence about it. I like AJ's vote less than Zander's - Zander at least attempted to justify his, even though I don't agree with the justification. Disagreeing with Dice's assessment of the situation doesn't warrant a vote by itself, IMO. I don't like the wait and see attitude that Sooh and Thane are taking either.

 

[v]AJ[/v]

 

 

This post feels like it comes from scum trying to "weigh in" on the argument.

 

 

 

 

[unvote]

 

[v]Razen[/v]

 

FTR - I never really had a reason to vote Sili. I wasn't paying that close of attention to the thread while I was enjoying my resort visit, I saw the two of them arguing and how Dice was engaging so I decided to throw down my vote without saying anything to see how people handled it. Basically no one said anything, which is fine, except a few.

 

Sili called it a bad vote. This is null.

 

Sooh/Kaylee (don't remember which now) said they didn't like me not explaining it. This is fine too.

 

The best reaction I got to the vote, by far, was Razen's ability to take a vote with no stated reason and apply it negatively without doing any sort of investigation first. At the very least, he isn't playing objectively and I have issue with that. People assume a lot in this game, but there's always two sides to the coin. If he wanted to assume that I was sheeping Dice, that would be okay, but only if he acknowledged that I could have been doing something else. Instead he hard labels it as something, essentially fabricating his own reason to vote me, and runs with it.

 

thats pretty much what i was assuming. i figured you just followed my gut.

 

as far as Razen he is the only one other then sili im willing to vote. He pinged me as soon as he started posting re me and sili.

 

heres the thing tho   my thinking? Razen and sili are tied together. My preferred order is sili then razen. Sili flips scum as i think he does that confirms razen for me

 

 

Why are they tied together?  Razen came in and essentially gave more credence to Zander than Sili.  How does that equate to pairing them?

[Verbal32]

Quick takes:

 

-Dice probably town

-Same with Sili, but to a lesser extent.  I want to say they both come out as town from that discussion, but if I needed to choose 1 as scum, it would be Sili (but I don't want to right now).

-AJ probably town for having the same reaction that I did

 

-Kaylee practically locked in as town unless she's heavily changed her scum meta since I last played with her.  Her analysis MQ was a huge townie indicator for me.

 

-I liked some of Shad's posts, and then didn't like others.  I'll need to ISO to clear my mind here.  First priority.

[Verbal32]

I'm mostly wanting to make Sili green based on his reactions to Dice, not necessarily anything he said game-related before or after.  But that kinda means a tone read, and I really hate tone reads (and I probably suck at them, too).

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Players

1. Razen - long posts. haven't read in full.

2. Shad - long posts. good content. town read.

3. Kronos - has he posted?

4. Verbal - weekend.

5. Kaylee - optimistically town. still quite skeptical though, so I fluxuate.

6. Hallia - eh, gun to head: town.  it's weird. she needs to explain her read on dice.

7. Sooh - town for tone. it's a tone read.

8. dice - meh - town. his meta is easy to fake as a wolf though, so like normal, unless i have something else to go on, this is just a tone read.

9. Andrej - seems apathetic to me. more than normal. commenting Razen outs himself and not quoting the passage for instance.

10. Zander - I can understand why he voted me from a town pov.

11. Pral - can't remember if he's posted.

12. Thane - trouble posting game-related content.

13. Sili - charming.

 

 

From the last list to this one, there are a couple of things I noticed.  The first - Hallia goes from a yellow read to a gun to head town read, even though I don't think she posted very much in the meantime?  How does that change so suddenly?  From what I've seen of AJ in other games, I wouldn't call him apathetic.  But that is a very small sample size, however.  Your read of him fits from your earlier list.

Yellow ppl were ppl i was looking at. Thats all.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

so dont sit there and tell me what im thinking. If u want to say i was backtracking lol then make an argument. But do not tell me i cleared someone when i have said a dozen times i am not.

 

 

You're getting very hung up on this point.  It surprises me that you don't see where people are coming from.  Basically a number of people have used "clearing" Sooh and "town reading" Sooh interchangeably, and in a casual sense I think that's fine.  You could come in and spell out the difference as you see it.  Something like "listen, I take 'clear' to mean I'm pretty solidly convinced that someone is town, and I don't feel that way about Sooh.  I feel that she's trending town so far but has a lot left to prove before I'd 'clear' her."  That's kind of what I think you're saying at least.  But if you just keep denying that you've 'cleared' her without defining what you mean, people will keep coming back with the post where you called her town.  I'm not sure what this business of getting defensive but not really trying to resolve the issue means for you.  I think most scum would seek clarity to pull themselves out of the spotlight.  Eh, I need to check your Usual Suspects game again.  You were pretty convincingly town there imo so I didn't pay much attention to you.

I am using clear the same way dice uses it asfaict.