[Advanced] The Usual Suspects Mafia - GAME OVER - COPS WIN

[WWWwombat]

 

@Clov - can you better flesh out your AJ read, please? I was pretty surprised to see he had 23 posts in ISO because I barely remember anything outside of the other game stuff [i haven't even gottent o do any Three Amigos stuff :(]. The only real substantive content post was this one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I missed alot in the past few months, what vendettas have occurred while ive been gone? You vig someone multiple games in a row AJ?

Lol nah. It doesn't really matter tbh - it's not a game related thing but if Kivam wants to go that route he can eat rope before too long.

 

 

This is was the first post by AJ that I really cared about.  The content is actually meaningless here - I'll concede that this thought process is not really pro-town, but I don't think it's pro-maf, either.  It just seemed like such a natural reaction for AJ about something I thought was pretty much garbage.  Just based on this, I felt AJ was more likely to be town than not.

 

He made a few other easy posts early on.  Cory's right that AJ is a good enough player to fake that comfort as mafia, but I'm not trying to solve the entire game this phase.  If he sounds good, then I'm going to assume he's good, until I have a reason not to.  There are 19 slots and 26 players I have to read.  I would rather focus on finding a few players I'm comfortable with as candidates for today and getting more detailed when the game is smaller.

 

 

Was planning on doing a big WOT catch-up style post, but after reading ~30 something pages and seeing that I had less than 20 posts I wanted to actually comment on, I'll forego that and just take a big consciousness dump ITT. Most topics have been touched on and repeated enough that I don't feel the need to add anything - so I'll try to bring some fresh points to the thread.

 

Shad's joke vote on Seph early on reminds me of how he started in the Belichick game, which is cool considering our synergy in that one. I had some more of his stuff quoted in the queue before I wiped them all that I liked as well. His comments towards Hallia/wish-tree are pretty villagery and carry that sort of uncanny poise he has for a newer player. Good vibes from him thus far.

 

Wish-Tree strikes me as a Hallia.2 in the first few pages of the game. Don't know what that means yet but it's the impression I got, so there you have it.

 

Hallia and Nyn are passing the eyeball test so far. Halli's coming out strong against Kiv and I think her reaction to his whining is good in the sense that she's an emotive player and I would expect her to react that way to that sort of thing. Nyn's sharpness came out once she got past her intro catch-up. She's picking up on the details I think she would as town regarding Kiv's Pral vote, and the responses to Celeste/wish-tree are the amusingly blunt type we all know and love.

 

Wombat's OP at a glance makes me think the randomizing wasn't so good to him, more gut than anything. Wanna see him get more involved once things picked up more beyond the catch up style posts.

 

Zander/Seph/Laine seem to doing that townie circle jerk thing they like to do - we'll see how that progresses. Zander is easy going but I'll be looking for when he starts to make cases after our last game together where he got by a lot on being 'Zander'. Don't really have an opinion regarding Laine picking up Mynd's torch, the stance itself is null but we'll see where she goes with it. Not much about Seph stuck out to me beyond him reiterating a lot that he really likes wish-tree/Celeste.

 

Kivish slot giving me some troubles atm. I basically hate Kivam's approach this game, first with me and then later with Pral and the subsequent backtracking, but Mish feels pretty genuine with how she's reacting to things ITT. Wouldn't really have thought Mish would be the redeeming quality for them (no offense) but if they weren't paired I would support a Kiv wagon at this point.

 

This was the first post of AJ's that really contributed to anything.  Bold are parts that I can see where he's coming from, which I assumed is what Cory meant by thought process.  The part about Wombat doesn't stand out on its own, but he does follow it up with the vote and gave me a reasonable answer when I asked him about it. 

 

[v]Wombat[/v]

 

Seems people are starting to echo my thoughts here.

 

Need to leave for work now, I'll try to peek at the thread throughout the day if I get the chance.

 

 

Quickly before I arrive at Sea World for the day:

 

@Mish - Call it more a better fundamental understanding of how he operates. I'm not looking to give him an out and he can explain for himself, which he may have already and I missed it. It's just something I could see him doing and added it to give you some insight. Seph should probably already know that, ftr.

 

@Clov/Zander - more of hunch/gut read atm. His OP and posts thus far just read to me like scumBat does. You could say it's a prod, sure, but I am mildly suspicious until he picks it up.

 

After the two of them hydraed together in a pretty drawn out game, I would expect that AJ would have better insight on reading Wombat than others.  I suppose they weren't actually town that game, but I really do believe they were trying to be.

 

 

 

 

I assumed Cory's post to mean that AJ was making a decent amount of contributions but without ever showing work towards how he got there.  I kind of felt the opposite was true - he hadn't done much, but he had backed up most of what he'd said.  So he wasn't lacking substance, he was lacking volume. 

 

 

What is your read on AJ?

[Celeste]

@Clov what's your read on wombats hydra partner? Since you have seen to play with both of them.

[Yates]

Celeste - how much input did you have on wish's reads list?  Did you disagree on anyone?

[WWWwombat]

 

He's saying it could be helpful if and only if Kiv flips mafia. It's completely useless until we see Kiv's flip though.

Yeah but then he says "He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with..." which is exactly the opposite of what he said earlier about Kivam busing teammates. So if either option is possible, how is that helpful? See what I'm saying?

 

 

It's not, really.

[Lenlo]

Lenlo, you said something about having previously mentioned AJ and Zander being good lunches.  I think Clov was asking you where the previous mention was.  I couldn't find it myself.  That being said, Razen's "case" on you looks more like semantics than scumhunting to me.

By previously, I meant previously in the same post. Not prior in the game. Once Clov explained that was the confusion, I realized I could have been clearer about it.

[WWWwombat]

 

its like in SW when I had went after Yates,  I couldnt explain myself in a way that others could/would follow and it wasnt till seph built the case that it got done.

Man. You guys were dumb. If we somehow got out of that? I would have rubbed it in your face FOREVER!!

 

 

You sealed your fate when you went against #WomboCombo

[wish-tree]

Also, is it me or does everyone spell lynch wrong...?

 

lynch = lunch?

lol?

[WWWwombat]

Awake for a few mins. What's the current drama?

 

Lol.  At some point you guys will have to stop trolling and actually play you know.

[Kaylee]

Also, is it me or does everyone spell lynch wrong...?

 

lynch = lunch?

lol?

They do... and it makes me hungry

[wish-tree]

 

Also, is it me or does everyone spell lynch wrong...?

 

lynch = lunch?

lol?

They do... and it makes me hungry

 

I guess this is just a DM quirk. :P

You guys are weird. *pat pat*

I already had lunch, so I'll pass.

[WWWwombat]

AJ- I need to see some more of.  i have no idea:

Clov/BFG-  Cant read Clov.  BFG usually pretty clear towny atp.  im not seeing it yet.

Nolder/Darthe-????

Wish- Stil looking pretty towny

Wombo- Same with AJ.

Yates- Looking good

Cory'Key- Ive had no problems here.

Talya- Havent seen her usual self. null

John Snow- I always think he's scummy...lolololol par for the course.

 

Why do you think John Snow is scummy?

[wish-tree]

Celeste - how much input did you have on wish's reads list?  Did you disagree on anyone?

Also, since Celeste has been on and off today organizing her house to make it presentable for her visitors, I only asked her about my null reads. She mentioned AJ and Beck on her own. :3

[WWWwombat]

Kae had the Stark symbol from GoT, Clov's avi is the wolf brooch Cloud from FF7 wears. Kae's was white background, black wolf, Clov's is the other way around XD

 

(And it makes me miss my Cloud everytime I see it)

You just gave me a new avi idea :)

[WWWwombat]

 

 

I also dont understand why Im getting flack for my read of Kiv's emo stuff when IM NOT the only one doing so??  if its something else please let me know.  ive also listed other reasons for my vote so im not getting it,

 

Also if I missed anything directed at me please let me know.

 

You called a post AtE when it clearly wasn't.  When pressed on it, you gave some lame excuse about meaning to quote his previous posts.  An excuse I don't buy.  Furthermore, adding in Kiv's statement that his emo-fest was a gambit and that you still haven't let up on him for it as far as I can tell, this looks even more like you are ignoring some very pertinent details.  It's like you found an easy narrative for Kiv (that he's emo and therefore scum) and locked it in.  That doesn't look to me like the behavior of a townie trying to find scum.  That looks to me like the behavior of mafia trying to find a townie who is playing poorly and is therefore a lynch target.

 

 

 

 

 

What was the "legit assumption that perhaps wasn't accurate"?

Okay. You are undermining a potential scum hunting tool. I usually get cranky when people do this kind of stuff but this is like the 3rd time this has happened to me this game so whatever... lol

 

Basically, this is the post in question:

Since nobody is doing anything ... [v]Pralaya[/v].  If my memory is right, he likes to lurk as scum, and hasn't checked in yet.  Pral, where're you at?  Start laying some content down.

One interpretation of this post is; "I'm voting for Pral BECAUSE he likes to lurk as scum and hasn't even checked in yet."

 

That's the interpretation I had.

 

However, another interpretation is; "I'm voting for Pral since nobody is doing anything else and I like to prod lurkers when I don't have better things to do with my vote. ALSO, he likes to lurk as scum. Let's make him post a lot."

 

This was not an interpretation that immediately came to mind but is one that seems to be implied by his defense posts. I kind of didn't want to spell it out since it would have been better if HE had said something like this. Also, I could be wrong about this interpretation.

 

Still, the second interpretation seems like it could be implied if you string together this, this, this, this, this, and this. It's like he's answering suspicion without even realizing that we are all assuming the first interpretation - ie. he's unaware of why his post is being read as an accusation. But if you reread those links with the second interpretation in mind? I can buy it.

 

 

Kiv ain't sloppy dude.  There's always a purpose.  Usually multiple purposes.  If he's scum, it's not because of this.  The best way to catch a scum Kiv imo is to see if he's ignoring inconvenient facts.  His logic is always spot on, but in order to get that to work, he has to ignore premises that could lead to troublesome conclusions.

 

 

im seeing a disconnect with the bold.

 

and i find something scummy i go after it.  and its like 1/2 through day 1... nothing is LOCKED IN.  No one has looked scummier thus far imo.  the AtE ive went over already. 

 

Ill keep on this to unless I have reason not to,

 

 

No disconnect at all.  I don't think Kiv is playing poorly.  I think you think he is.

[WWWwombat]

 

 

 

 

 

Wish - a. may return as true, but if so, I don't know about it.  The only other truly dedicated lurker in this game (based on my experience) is Hallia, and she was already actively posting (and had recently said she was making an effort to be more active).  Keep in mind what I said earlier - I have a lot of mafia experience, but not with most of these players (there's a reason Wombat said he didn't buy my emo headfake, but pretty much everyone else did ... he's played with me for years).  So wrt most of this game's players, asking me if they usually lurk as scum makes as much sense as asking you if they do.  I just don't know the answer.

Got it. *nod nod*

What you say here seems genuine. Why did you emo headfake? I don't understand that.

 

 

Because in my last game (the one I just accidentally self-lynched in), Shad and I got into an argument about the utility of using emo as a towntell.  I said it could be faked, started to fake it but didn't carry it through, and he said "well, I didn't believe it anyway".

 

And since I'm an INTP, I took that as a challenge

 

Pretty sure I won the argument; so if it gets me lynched in this game, it was still worth it

 

=/

 

you accused zander of misrepping you because he used the word emo.

 

 

Nuance, br0.  U scum?

 

 

are you?

 

 

Nope.

[keyholder21]

@ Key - what are reading from Yates that makes him town?

 

Everything?

 

But seriously, how do you not have him town right now? What he's saying, how he's saying it, and his thought progression in thread is screaming town to me. Perhaps the only thing that's worrisome - knowing who he is lol - is that he is my strongest town read right now.  

 

The Clov/Cory/AJ Stuff Post

Glad you went back and explained. I didn't really see anything between it, other than the fact that they both seemed to be constantly annoyed with each other, but I can follow your progression. FTR I don't really see anything AJ has done as sketchy, like Cor does.

 

 

Thanks for that post yates, I was having

Trouble trying to follow that earlier in my read, and it helped quite a bit.

 

I'm glad to see cory/clov talking like this, because from past games I remember they always seemed to be buddy buddy, And let each other float bye until later in the game.

 

Why are you glad? What does their "talking like this" mean for their prospective alignments in your opinion?

 

Or is it ENPF, I can never remember the order of the two last letters.

you had it right the first time :). ENFP for you.

 

I'm ESFP if anyone is wondering :D :D :D.

[Hallia]

@Wish - I can sure list then out, when I get to my computer, on the mobile atm.

[wish-tree]

@Wish - I can sure list then out, when I get to my computer, on the mobile atm.

Thank you!

[WWWwombat]

So yeahhh I don't really have much of anything that I can see as pinning someone as scum or town, except from the questions/interactions I've already had. If I haven't interacted with you, I'm just going to assign you a read from the content I've read.

Color coded for your viewing pleasure! Town Scum Null

 ****Wow, I don't have many scum reads... lollllll

I think that the nulls have the potential to evolve into scum. Also, sorry if you don't make sense and I read you as null, lol. Ughhh I'm just getting snarkier as I go. I'll shut up. (It's okay if you don't make sense, just start making sense... :x *shuts up*)

I asked Celeste for a little help on my nulls. Hope you don't mind. She guts them.

1.   Razen  : I like the points Razen makes. He makes lots of sense. Low amount of posts, but high content, imo.

2. Wombat/Ocicat: Wombat seems like a gut/tone player. At first, noticed a lot of fluff from him, but he seems to have cooled off and is starting to be more analytical. As for Ocicat, never saw a single post. Did notice him lurking my profile though!

3. Seph/Zander: I think Zander going after Kivam is in earnest. Don't think he's trying to fake that and don't think it's distancing. Seph I have less information about and would like to interact more with him (we only interacted in the fluff stage :'( )

4. Hallia: Hasn't posted much, and I haven't interacted with her, but again, as with Razen, I like what she has to say.

5. Sili: Very aggressive townie. Going after anyone who has any weirdness to their posting.

6. Kivam/Mish: Kivam seems earnest, though going for boosting his own ego in Day 1 is a bit off-putting (with the emo game). Still town. Mish not as sure, but very detailed reasoning and can back up her reads.

7. Laine: Haven't seen much from her except for her "kill all hydras post". At least, that's all I can remember. She's gotta contribute more content.

8. Shad: Eh...I don't even know. I like the content, but I'm unsure about the general lurkiness. Celeste thinks she/he is null/townish (she also doesn't remember the gender XD).

9. Talya: Also unsure...I only remember her being nice to Celeste and me. Not sure if she has much in the way of posting. Celeste likes her. :3

10. Pralaya: Being the much-talked about subject of Kivam and Clov's fighting, I wanted to see an appearance. Posts very little. Celeste is also unsure about

11. Lenlo: Uh....Posts very little... No clue. Not going to attempt to meta read him. Celeste's gut read on him is scum.

12. Yates: Very helpful player. Makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, he makes the most sense to me in this game. <3

13. Nyn/Dice: Think that Nyn is town. Seems like the same kind of attitude that Sili has. Dice? Have skimmed his/her (?) posts and honestly, nothing stuck.

14. John Snow: Reads list was pretty scanty and he hasn't posted much since then. Would prod him lots for information.

15. Clov/BFG: I like both of them. Clov answers my questions and is very helpful with explaining his reasoning, and I get what he's trying to say, though I think some of it is a little too nit-picky and he's probably focusing on the wrong points. I get that BFG has real life reasons for not being here, and I don't have a problem with them, because she's still contributing.

16. Beck Csarmi: I don't even remember seeing him posting. If I'm not hallucinating, he may have complimented me, but that's the only thing I remember. lol XD Beck was also a null for me, but Celeste thinks he was scummy because they have played together before.

17. Cory/Keyholder: Cory is funny. I think his tiff with Clov isn't contrived at all, and I think that they're both town. I like Key's posts a lot.

18. wish-tree/Celeste: My most solid reads ever.

19. Nolder/Darthe: Nolder is semi-lurkish. I think he has the same issue with this game as I do. I don't really have the strongest impression of some of the players, and he doesn't either. Darthe posts little, and 50% of it is fluff.

20. AJ: Uhh? People seem to think he's scummy. I don't have a problem with him, but Celeste says that her gut read on him is scum.

 

I'm not really a gut/tone player, I just use them more early on because we have less to work with.  Also, not liking your scum reads.  They seem primarily based on inactivity and/or enigmatic behavior.  Why does that indicate scum?

[wish-tree]

 

So yeahhh I don't really have much of anything that I can see as pinning someone as scum or town, except from the questions/interactions I've already had. If I haven't interacted with you, I'm just going to assign you a read from the content I've read.

Color coded for your viewing pleasure! Town Scum Null

 ****Wow, I don't have many scum reads... lollllll

I think that the nulls have the potential to evolve into scum. Also, sorry if you don't make sense and I read you as null, lol. Ughhh I'm just getting snarkier as I go. I'll shut up. (It's okay if you don't make sense, just start making sense... :x *shuts up*)

I asked Celeste for a little help on my nulls. Hope you don't mind. She guts them.

1.   Razen  : I like the points Razen makes. He makes lots of sense. Low amount of posts, but high content, imo.

2. Wombat/Ocicat: Wombat seems like a gut/tone player. At first, noticed a lot of fluff from him, but he seems to have cooled off and is starting to be more analytical. As for Ocicat, never saw a single post. Did notice him lurking my profile though!

3. Seph/Zander: I think Zander going after Kivam is in earnest. Don't think he's trying to fake that and don't think it's distancing. Seph I have less information about and would like to interact more with him (we only interacted in the fluff stage :'( )

4. Hallia: Hasn't posted much, and I haven't interacted with her, but again, as with Razen, I like what she has to say.

5. Sili: Very aggressive townie. Going after anyone who has any weirdness to their posting.

6. Kivam/Mish: Kivam seems earnest, though going for boosting his own ego in Day 1 is a bit off-putting (with the emo game). Still town. Mish not as sure, but very detailed reasoning and can back up her reads.

7. Laine: Haven't seen much from her except for her "kill all hydras post". At least, that's all I can remember. She's gotta contribute more content.

8. Shad: Eh...I don't even know. I like the content, but I'm unsure about the general lurkiness. Celeste thinks she/he is null/townish (she also doesn't remember the gender XD).

9. Talya: Also unsure...I only remember her being nice to Celeste and me. Not sure if she has much in the way of posting. Celeste likes her. :3

10. Pralaya: Being the much-talked about subject of Kivam and Clov's fighting, I wanted to see an appearance. Posts very little. Celeste is also unsure about

11. Lenlo: Uh....Posts very little... No clue. Not going to attempt to meta read him. Celeste's gut read on him is scum.

12. Yates: Very helpful player. Makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, he makes the most sense to me in this game. <3

13. Nyn/Dice: Think that Nyn is town. Seems like the same kind of attitude that Sili has. Dice? Have skimmed his/her (?) posts and honestly, nothing stuck.

14. John Snow: Reads list was pretty scanty and he hasn't posted much since then. Would prod him lots for information.

15. Clov/BFG: I like both of them. Clov answers my questions and is very helpful with explaining his reasoning, and I get what he's trying to say, though I think some of it is a little too nit-picky and he's probably focusing on the wrong points. I get that BFG has real life reasons for not being here, and I don't have a problem with them, because she's still contributing.

16. Beck Csarmi: I don't even remember seeing him posting. If I'm not hallucinating, he may have complimented me, but that's the only thing I remember. lol XD Beck was also a null for me, but Celeste thinks he was scummy because they have played together before.

17. Cory/Keyholder: Cory is funny. I think his tiff with Clov isn't contrived at all, and I think that they're both town. I like Key's posts a lot.

18. wish-tree/Celeste: My most solid reads ever.

19. Nolder/Darthe: Nolder is semi-lurkish. I think he has the same issue with this game as I do. I don't really have the strongest impression of some of the players, and he doesn't either. Darthe posts little, and 50% of it is fluff.

20. AJ: Uhh? People seem to think he's scummy. I don't have a problem with him, but Celeste says that her gut read on him is scum.

 

I'm not really a gut/tone player, I just use them more early on because we have less to work with.  Also, not liking your scum reads.  They seem primarily based on inactivity and/or enigmatic behavior.  Why does that indicate scum?

 

Because I really can't see any of the actives as very scummy. I actually can't see anyone who makes sense and isn't afraid of speaking their mind as scummy.

I also notice that scum tend to lurk a lot...so? This is a pretty weak reads list as I've already mentioned. I think that atm the conflicts among the active players are silly imo and that the real scum are taking advantage of the confusion. We have 20 players and a lot of those are fairly lurky.

[Zander?]

 

@ Yates who is on your POE?

Easier question to answer is who is NOT...

 

- I've had Hally and Nyn green from early on.

 

Ya me too

 

- I love Key's posts but she's paired up with Cory so it's hard to give them an early green. In any case, they aren't in my Day 1 lynch pile.

 

Agreed

 

- I actually kind of like Razen. He's easy to follow, anyway. Reminds me of the other Alanna. In a good way.

 

Only played once with him,  not a lot of Meta to go on

 

- I feel like Kivish was taking some heat early, got defensive, and got stuck in that defensive mode. That heat seems to have cooled off so I'm waiting to see what direction they go in now that they aren't against the ropes.

 

Can you touch on this slot for me.  Ive not been liking it at all but perhaps you have some meta or insight to share.  I havent played with either,

 

- I'm a little concerned about NolDerf keeping such a low profile. I don't think this game/activity is bigger than either of them so I won't buy that as an excuse.

 

Yes this ^^^^

 

- I haven't seen anything from BFG worth a whole lot and Clov has been hard to follow so I'm keeping an eye open there.

 

Mentioned the same myself

 

- Also not sure how I feel about the wish/celeste hydra - though some of that might just be me not knowing them.

 

Ive like the tone and relaxed gameplay thus far

 

- I'm kind of cautious about you guys. I'm not seeing a lot of reads development. Maybe expect that less from you but certainly from Seph.

 

Fair enough tbh i havent spoken much to him.

 

- I was also expecting a lot more content from Lainey and Talya. Like, even though Talya was scum in Bellicheat? I want to see that kind of effort and probing.

 

Alanna pretty towny imo.  Tayla null this far to me.

 

Mostly, there's just this huge swath of nulls.

 

 

FYI- Red is me.

[Zander?]

Catching up at work, I feel like I like how Wombat is posting, I like the energy, but I don't like his reads. Primarily on Zander/Kiv. Yates is so so town. I dunno yet on Laine, but she feels relaxed to me.

 

Can you please touch on this a bit Hallia.

 

 

@everyone unhappy with my lack of proof in my reads list:

It was more of a PSA, I'm not trying to convince anyone they're town. I'm more interested in trying to find mafia, then convincing you that said person is mafia. 

If a train starts up on one of my town reads without a good reason, I'll be backing them up. 

 

That's swell, but It's less about you convincing anyone that the people on your list are town and more about being able to get a read on you by understanding your thought process and be able to follow up on your progression. You could at least provide a short explanation on your reads.... otherwise it's equivalent to not posting a read list at all, in my book.

 

 

Nyn pretty towny imo. Also want to see more from John Snow.

[Darthe]

I have read many parts of the thread but not all of it. Despite this I am fully aware that none of you know what the **** is going on either so I am electing to begin from right here.

 

Right now.

 

Hello.

[Yates]

Can you touch on this slot for me.  Ive not been liking it at all but perhaps you have some meta or insight to share.  I havent played with either,

I think I've only played with Kivam twice and haven't played with Mish in a loooong time. The game I remember with Kiv was when he first started playing again and rolled scum with me. He's an "old school" type of player. I think there are others here with a lot more experience with him, like Wombat, who might be able to tell you more. I liked Wombat's one observation here:

Kiv ain't sloppy dude.  There's always a purpose.  Usually multiple purposes.  If he's scum, it's not because of this.  The best way to catch a scum Kiv imo is to see if he's ignoring inconvenient facts.  His logic is always spot on, but in order to get that to work, he has to ignore premises that could lead to troublesome conclusions.

This is what I'm going to be keeping my eye out for because this sounds like good advice for catching even really CONVINCING scum. At some point, it becomes impossible to ignore inconvenient facts. That's how Seph ultimately caught us when Cloudflare cheated and gave you too much time to actually look at what I was saying in Star Wars.

[Darthe]

Oh look there are things. Zander quote of Js above I concur with, it looks good. It's also very vanilla. but in a good way.

 

What are wombats reads? I agree with his statement quoted by Yates above but am not sure if it's being used to advocate for or against him.