Some thoughts on Moridin (A Memory of Light)

[Phylactery]

So I've just finished the series for the first time, and I have some thoughts about Moridin (and also posting here for the first time; I think I did it right)

 

RJ played a fair bit with people being turned to the shadow, even very nearly our dear protagonist.

 

But there was a continuous refrain throughout the series of redemption - that even the most fallen could come back to the Light. This played out in a few minor ways, but at first glance I think it may seem it was never really touched, especially with the big bads, the Forsaken. I had two I desperately wanted redemption for: Moridin and Graendal. Moridin because I understood and sympathized with his reasons for joining the shadow, and Graendal because despite the fact that she ended very badly, there were a good several books where I could see some of that ascetic, altruistic priestess coming through just a little bit despite her superficial insistence nothing of the kind remained inside her. Seriously, look closely and you'll see it - yes she dicks over loads of Forsaken (she was probably the worst in that regard) but with Sammael specifically, and a few instances I remember noticing but regret I didn't write down for reference, frequently helps other Forsaken at personal cost/risk. Anyway, she didn't turn out that way. Haha fine, sure. 

 

I have a theory though. I think the entire ending of Memory of Light (last chance for anyone who's not read it) actually confirms that Moridin was redeemed, or at the very least committed a redemptive act. Moridin, in Rand's body, carries Rand in Moridin's out, ensuring that he can live even though they presumably have already transferred consciousnesses (I'm still not clear on the exact details about that, but I'm chalking it up to crossed streams and an ultimately benevolent Pattern/Creator). Now I've read through and seem some people post here about how this is some setup or xanatos gambit for the next cycle, whatever. But I disagree with that analysis.

 

I think Moridin genuinely found some degree of redemption in the end and intentionally saved his friend. I say it specifically that way, because as we all know once upon a time, they were. Here are some of my reasons:

 

Moridin came to the shadow out of genuine despair over, essentially, the philosophical inevitability of entropy. I don't think I need to hammer this home, but I think it's the key point in his redemption in the end. The Dark One, by Rand's own observation while in the non-pattern place (Void?) was never going to grant Moridin the oblivion he wanted, and it's entirely possible that Moridin, in that moment, may have been experiencing, or at least somehow privy to the interactions between the two. That may be a stretch but it's not essential to my theory, it's really just a reason he may have even had confirmation that the Dark One was never going to grant him oblivion. Regardless if he knew or not, this brings me to my major point:

 

Moridin, despite the constant, raging hard on he seems to have for non-existence, really did not want to cease to exist; he merely thought he must as a philosophical outworking of the inevitability of the Dark One's victory. Think about this, and tell me if this is a completely juvenile observation, but if Moridin really wanted oblivion, he could have balefired himself at any time! It's not that hard, just bend the weave back, or hell if it's that complicated, make a gateway back to yourself. Even in that last big dark side rally the Forsaken had in Moridin's lovely hellscape, there was this hesitation inside him - something I frequently saw (I admit I could have been reading into it, and again, I've just finished the series so pardon if my lack of supporting quotes looks lazy, I'm just still digesting) in other appearances. At times it's like he's going overboard to prove just how nihilistic he is, because deep down he wants someone to prove him wrong. What he really desires is everything he believed the Light and the Pattern to be, he just hit a hitch in logic that kept him from that. I even remember him seemingly demanding an answer from Rand when he's pulled into his Dreamshard - I distinctly remember getting the impression he was demanding some kind of justification, some reason to believe again. Again, tell me if I'm just reading into this.

 

My bottom line, though, is that I feel Moridin, in the end, on some level, realized what Rand did: that the Dark One isn't really the enemy; he's really nothing. It's about choice. I think somewhere deep down, that realization combined with the understanding of the Dark One's "image" for the world bridged that millennia old gap and spoke to that hole inside of him. This is why I genuinely believe that Moridin, despite all outward evidence to the contrary, found a redemptive moment, a choice for the Light in the very end. Do you remember what Rand said about him while in that Void? "You want peace, and the Dark One will never give you peace." Maybe his 'peace' was surrendering to the concept that although the Dark One will always come against the Pattern, the Light can ultimately prevail if men choose for it to. It was a combination of renewed faith in the Light and in his friend (and by extension, humanity). 

 

This is how I interpreted his character and the things I saw; again specific examples can be dug up but boy do I ever not relish the thought of going back for those tidbits just now haha. Please tell me what I'm missing (if anything) or that I'm a deranged fanboy that just wants to believe in happy endings =P (Or that I'm right, you know that's cool too!)

[Bannakaffalatta]

I think you are a deranged fanboy that likes happy endings, but that's okay because you aren't wrong entirely. Personally I come to my own conclusions all the time on things like this, and then someone will get a look at RJ's notes and tell everyone "well it actually meant this". But I hardly ever pay attention to that because it isn't what I made it in my head when I read these books, and even though this is RJ's creation my own mind and experiences shape how I interpret the actions taken in the book.

That being said, I don't think you're far off base on almost your whole theory, except for the part about Moridin in Rand's body carrying out his "friend" in what you see as his final redeeming moment. Saving someone you hate or at odds with is a very Rand/Two Rivers thing to do. I believe Rand was the one that carried Moridin out because he had interpreted something from prophecy that may have sounded like a dream Egwene had 

 

"Logain laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet" (CoS pg250 paper back)

 

 

Or he may have interpreted this vision Min shared with him

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and...I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't" (CoS pg675 paper back)

 

That's the main reason I believe Rand was the one to walk out of the Pit, and that mind meld or brain transfer or whatever it was took place after. Anyway that is the only place I actually disagreed, but honestly it is your story as much as it is mine or RJ's, interpret it however you like and whatever completes the Epic tale for you is what is correct.

 

P.S. I had those references from a spread sheet for the books that I put together here is the link if you want to take a look.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oOHhxV1MkcV_Rzk30Uwcky_TuxfPDgZRuTvJJiOfn5M/edit?usp=sharing

[Sabio]

Big issue with this is at the end Moridin was pretty insane from the constant use of the true power, and we saw he had no  intention of doing the right  thing.  He wanted to die.  Balefiring himself would killed him but he would still exist as one day he would of been reborn and start the process all over.  He wanted total non existence as in DO removing his soul from the pattern type stuff.  He  didn't want to be reborn to start the external struggle with LTT again.  You make a lot of good points that I agree with, but I also agree with Banna and the thinking  it was Rand who carried Moridin out then started the body transfer thing there.  I just didn't see anything from Moridin to make me think he found redemption.  He seemed like a crazy man who wanted to die but wanted to take his arch foe LTT down with him.

[mb]

Only moderators and administrators are allowed to start threads in the Structured section (where this thread currently is).

 

I recall at least one other thread speculating the moment of the body swap.

 

From what I skimmed, it was Rand who did the carrying; not sure whose body he was in at that point.  Last Moridin POV I think was in Path of Daggers.

 

balefire self; the only way I think would be to do a gateway to somewhere behind self.  Though the Pattern (or possibly the Wheel) might somehow prevent (or stop) anyone from doing self balefire.

 

As for Moridin gaining redemption before he died, it might have been.  Only way to know for sure is if someone who had access to the notes tells one way or the other.

[Phylactery]

Only moderators and administrators are allowed to start threads in the Structured section (where this thread currently is).

Thank you for moving it, I got a little confused between the main and sub forums. Brown hair can turn blonde sometimes!

 

 

 

I recall at least one other thread speculating the moment of the body swap.

Yeah, I am more interested in the implications of Moridin choosing to save Rand (if indeed that's what happened) than the mechanics of it. Ultimately I don't care much how it happened, just for my part.

 

 

it was Rand who did the carrying

I will go back and double check this, though I'm at work at the moment without access to my book =/.

 

 

balefire self; the only way I think would be to do a gateway to somewhere behind self.  Though the Pattern (or possibly the Wheel) might somehow prevent (or stop) anyone from doing self balefire.

It is kind of a conundrum, isn't it? Haha, if you balefire yourself wouldn't you be reversing the actions of person who did the thing that made you disappear? The more strongly you do it to try to overcome this the further back it reverses your removal of yourself. Trippy! I had a friend ask what would happen if you balefired the guy who invented balefire. We debated for a while on if the pattern would simply allow it to exist again through someone else's invention as it was an inevitability. Someone could always discover the weaves. Again though, if he wanted to stop existing, he could have jumped in front of Rand's or any of the Forsaken's balefire's at many points in the series (some where he was physically present for the rest of the fight). That's assuming a fellow Forsaken wouldn't do it for free (probably only due to fear from DO retribution).

 

 

As for Moridin gaining redemption before he died, it might have been.  Only way to know for sure is if someone who had access to the notes tells one way or the other.

Such notes and people may exist out there, part of why I asked on here. I'm not huge on 'word of god' answers to questions in fiction, but it is ultimately the best resource. Anyone who can confirm an absolute RJ/BS answer to this would be greatly appreciated, even if it will probably shit on my dreams =).

 

 

Balefiring himself would killed him but he would still exist as one day he would of been reborn and start the process all over.  He wanted total non existence as in DO removing his soul from the pattern type stuff.

I uhh... will try not to sound like a smartass in answering this but, that's exactly what Balefire is? It removes you from the Pattern forever. That's exactly what he wanted. Again, I don't see why he couldn't have done it (or arranged for it to happen) if he really wanted complete and total, "quantum" existential annihilation.

 

I just didn't see anything from Moridin to make me think he found redemption.  He seemed like a crazy man who wanted to die but wanted to take his arch foe LTT down with him.

Again, this is the backbone of my theory that what he really wanted was to be proven wrong, but he went about demanding better answers from people like a sulky teenager, huffing around and spewing angst on anything that got in a 1 mile radius of him. I know we saw nothing of desiring redemption throughout the whole series, that was the angsty teenager bit. My theory revolves around the idea that at the very very last minute, he got the one thing he was dreaming of ever since he hit his hitch in logic back in the First Age: A way to reconcile hope and a belief in the perpetual preservation of the Pattern under the Light.

 

 

I think you are a deranged fanboy that likes happy endings

Haha well someone had to do it.

 

and then someone will get a look at RJ's notes and tell everyone "well it actually meant this"

Here again, would be okay with this, if someone has such information. I'm asking to see if it can be found if this issue hasn't been tackled yet, though again ultimately I don't need author confirmation, nor would I necessarily abide strictly by it even if I had it.

 

That being said, I don't think you're far off base on almost your whole theory, except for the part about Moridin in Rand's body carrying out his "friend" in what you see as his final redeeming moment. Saving someone you hate or at odds with is a very Rand/Two Rivers thing to do. I believe Rand was the one that carried Moridin out because he had interpreted something from prophecy that may have sounded like a dream Egwene had

Well, there are two things to say here.

The first is that, Rand saving Moridin because he figured out the tricky riddle of Egwene's dreams/Min's vision seems a bit cheap to me. It reduces the "two rivers" heroic virtue you mentioned of saving the life of someone who was your enemy to "remembering to grab your spare body on your way out the door." I feel this is a bit of a cheap interpretation, even if it's the truth, because it makes Rand, essentially, into less of a hero and more of a functionary that fulfilled his job and wanted to have his cake and eat it too - at the expense of another being's consciousness, I might add. That just doesn't sound very genuinely heroic to me. Clever? Sure, but I feel that snatching up the unconscious body of his enemy on his way out of the final fight in order to ensure he gets a free body swap per dreams/visions he's heard is not in keeping with Rand's trajectory as a hero (not to mention the fact that as much as Rand changes in book 12, I still don't put it within his capacity to properly and accurately interpret those dreams/visions).

Now the second part: I'm not saying Moridin suddenly got full of butterflies and roses and his heart grew to 10 times its original size. I'm saying there's a very thin line between love and hate. Sometimes, when you've loved someone for a long time, and are hurt by them, your love can become a similar magnitude of hate in the blink of an eye. That doesn't mean you cease to love them - in a way it's a testament to how much you do. They meant so much to you, that for them to let you down or betray you in that way, it's that much worse a violation of what you believed was true. All this to say, while LTT never betrayed Ishamael, I do think he felt his friend's inability to convince him of the eternal feasibility of the Light's plan and the Pattern's solidity as a failure, and his own faith in the Pattern as misplaced. Ultimately the theological story he'd been fed from childhood seemed a lie, and the loss of his ability to believe in it (the realization of the inevitability of entropy) was a kind of betrayal, and as his closest friend LTT was his "face" for that. My point here is, the breaking of Ishamael's faith and his hatred for LTT are both linked, ultimately, to the root issue of the untenability of the Pattern remaining eternally whole and being ultimately worth preserving. So to clarify, I know Moridin didn't suddenly go "I love LTT again, bros for life, Light forever!" - but I do think a number of things may have snapped into place while he (potentially) heard the exchanges between the Dark One and Rand, and he realized the truth of Rand's revelation: that the DO was not really the enemy, mankind was its own. The Dark One is just an enabler, and a power source, but humans have always had the power to choose their destiny. Rand's reason for not obliterating the Dark One could have been what made Moridin finally get it, that the pattern could last eternally, it only required that people make that choice. So all of this - like I said, millenia of deeply rooted issues for Moridin - came to a head in one specific instant, and maybe, just maybe, he said to himself I'm going to make a choice to preserve the pattern, which also happens to reconcile my ages-long hatred of a friend I once loved, and which also happens to rectify the hitch in logic I hit thousands of years ago.

 

Just a thought! 

 

Sorry this is long, but I like to respond to as many people as try to post to be fair.

[Bannakaffalatta]

 

Only moderators and administrators are allowed to start threads in the Structured section (where this thread currently is).

Thank you for moving it, I got a little confused between the main and sub forums. Brown hair can turn blonde sometimes!

 

 

 

I recall at least one other thread speculating the moment of the body swap.

Yeah, I am more interested in the implications of Moridin choosing to save Rand (if indeed that's what happened) than the mechanics of it. Ultimately I don't care much how it happened, just for my part.

 

 

it was Rand who did the carrying

I will go back and double check this, though I'm at work at the moment without access to my book =/.

 

 

balefire self; the only way I think would be to do a gateway to somewhere behind self.  Though the Pattern (or possibly the Wheel) might somehow prevent (or stop) anyone from doing self balefire.

It is kind of a conundrum, isn't it? Haha, if you balefire yourself wouldn't you be reversing the actions of person who did the thing that made you disappear? The more strongly you do it to try to overcome this the further back it reverses your removal of yourself. Trippy! I had a friend ask what would happen if you balefired the guy who invented balefire. We debated for a while on if the pattern would simply allow it to exist again through someone else's invention as it was an inevitability. Someone could always discover the weaves. Again though, if he wanted to stop existing, he could have jumped in front of Rand's or any of the Forsaken's balefire's at many points in the series (some where he was physically present for the rest of the fight). That's assuming a fellow Forsaken wouldn't do it for free (probably only due to fear from DO retribution).

 

 

As for Moridin gaining redemption before he died, it might have been.  Only way to know for sure is if someone who had access to the notes tells one way or the other.

Such notes and people may exist out there, part of why I asked on here. I'm not huge on 'word of god' answers to questions in fiction, but it is ultimately the best resource. Anyone who can confirm an absolute RJ/BS answer to this would be greatly appreciated, even if it will probably shit on my dreams =).

 

 

Balefiring himself would killed him but he would still exist as one day he would of been reborn and start the process all over.  He wanted total non existence as in DO removing his soul from the pattern type stuff.

I uhh... will try not to sound like a smartass in answering this but, that's exactly what Balefire is? It removes you from the Pattern forever. That's exactly what he wanted. Again, I don't see why he couldn't have done it (or arranged for it to happen) if he really wanted complete and total, "quantum" existential annihilation.

 

I just didn't see anything from Moridin to make me think he found redemption.  He seemed like a crazy man who wanted to die but wanted to take his arch foe LTT down with him.

Again, this is the backbone of my theory that what he really wanted was to be proven wrong, but he went about demanding better answers from people like a sulky teenager, huffing around and spewing angst on anything that got in a 1 mile radius of him. I know we saw nothing of desiring redemption throughout the whole series, that was the angsty teenager bit. My theory revolves around the idea that at the very very last minute, he got the one thing he was dreaming of ever since he hit his hitch in logic back in the First Age: A way to reconcile hope and a belief in the perpetual preservation of the Pattern under the Light.

 

 

I think you are a deranged fanboy that likes happy endings

Haha well someone had to do it.

 

and then someone will get a look at RJ's notes and tell everyone "well it actually meant this"

Here again, would be okay with this, if someone has such information. I'm asking to see if it can be found if this issue hasn't been tackled yet, though again ultimately I don't need author confirmation, nor would I necessarily abide strictly by it even if I had it.

 

That being said, I don't think you're far off base on almost your whole theory, except for the part about Moridin in Rand's body carrying out his "friend" in what you see as his final redeeming moment. Saving someone you hate or at odds with is a very Rand/Two Rivers thing to do. I believe Rand was the one that carried Moridin out because he had interpreted something from prophecy that may have sounded like a dream Egwene had

Well, there are two things to say here.

The first is that, Rand saving Moridin because he figured out the tricky riddle of Egwene's dreams/Min's vision seems a bit cheap to me. It reduces the "two rivers" heroic virtue you mentioned of saving the life of someone who was your enemy to "remembering to grab your spare body on your way out the door." I feel this is a bit of a cheap interpretation, even if it's the truth, because it makes Rand, essentially, into less of a hero and more of a functionary that fulfilled his job and wanted to have his cake and eat it too - at the expense of another being's consciousness, I might add. That just doesn't sound very genuinely heroic to me. 

 

 

I didn't call anything about the Two Rivers heroic, they are simply good people who aren't going to let people suffer just because they can. That's not heroic that's humane.  Lets assume Rand hadn't interpreted the visions, and he just dragged Moridin out so a human being wouldn't die or be trapped in that pit, now you have your "hero", I still see humane. But I think where we largely differ is in the title you are giving Rand. You called him a hero and/or heroic, I don't see Rand as a hero, I see him strictly as a protagonist, when he descended into his darkness I would call him an anti hero, and that's only because I don't feel antagonist would be appropriate to use there since he was still doing what he felt was best for the rest of the world. And don't forget early on in the series Rand was completely trying to find out how to survive the last battle (that cake saying is dumb) when he asked the Aelfinn/Eelfinn how he could survive his fight with the Dark One. So from the jump he was looking for a way beyond the Last Battle.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Balfire isn't the eternal death of a soul. You are still reborn, you just cannot be resurrected by the DO, unless only a tiny amount is used, besides the fact that it would probably be impossible to balefire yourself. RJ liked to stay away from the 'balefire yourself' situation: 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

ROBERT JORDAN

Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn't matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - John Novak (Paraphrased)

JOHN NOVAK

[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]

ROBERT JORDAN

If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

Sabio is correct, Moridin wouldn't just kill himself, because only the Dark One can bring total oblivion. If he could have done it himself, he would have. 

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately, the body-swap wasn't explained in the notes, so we won't get an answer, but I think that Brandon's conclusion is the best, 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 16th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Mageen (Paraphrased)

MAGEEN

Can you shed any light on how the Rand/Elan body swap happened? I'm wondering whether it was like the Dark One's transmigration of souls, if it's tied to Rand's apparent new abilities, or something else.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's not outlined in the notes, but I think of it as the soul that wanted to live found a body, and the one that wanted to die, did.

 

 

Moridin just grew tired of living.

 

His punishment for his failures was to be transmigrated into Moridin. Moridin wanted to end ALL lives, but when Rand defeated the Dark One and it became impossible, there was no reason to keep living. Ishamael knew the concept of the Wheel, and he knew that he would once again be re-born. 

 

Rand didn't do anything different than his predecessors, he simply sealed the DO away, and the DO will once again be freed in the next turning. He simply gave up in this Age, knowing that the conflict will arise again, and one day, the Dark One may win. If he somehow managed to share Rand's thought that the DO can never win, it would further serve the theory. He would have much less to live for if he conceded that the Dark One could never bring him the oblivion he wanted.

 

So in a way, he may have given up on the Dark One, but I doubt 'redeemed' is the right word. He didn't suddenly turn back to the Light. At most he abandoned the Shadow and gave up. 

[Zander?]

First Mr. Jordan lol to the answer to the balefire question!!!

 

 

Balfire isn't the eternal death of a soul. You are still reborn, you just cannot be resurrected by the DO, unless only a tiny amount is used, besides the fact that it would probably be impossible to balefire yourself. RJ liked to stay away from the 'balefire yourself' situation: 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

ROBERT JORDAN

Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn't matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - John Novak (Paraphrased)

JOHN NOVAK

[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]

ROBERT JORDAN

If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

Sabio is correct, Moridin wouldn't just kill himself, because only the Dark One can bring total oblivion. If he could have done it himself, he would have. 

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately, the body-swap wasn't explained in the notes, so we won't get an answer, but I think that Brandon's conclusion is the best, 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 16th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Mageen (Paraphrased)

MAGEEN

Can you shed any light on how the Rand/Elan body swap happened? I'm wondering whether it was like the Dark One's transmigration of souls, if it's tied to Rand's apparent new abilities, or something else.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's not outlined in the notes, but I think of it as the soul that wanted to live found a body, and the one that wanted to die, did.

 

 

Moridin just grew tired of living.

 

His punishment for his failures was to be transmigrated into Moridin. Moridin wanted to end ALL lives, but when Rand defeated the Dark One and it became impossible, there was no reason to keep living. Ishamael knew the concept of the Wheel, and he knew that he would once again be re-born. 

 

Rand didn't do anything different than his predecessors, he simply sealed the DO away, and the DO will once again be freed in the next turning. He simply gave up in this Age, knowing that the conflict will arise again, and one day, the Dark One may win. If he somehow managed to share Rand's thought that the DO can never win, it would further serve the theory. He would have much less to live for if he conceded that the Dark One could never bring him the oblivion he wanted.

 

So in a way, he may have given up on the Dark One, but I doubt 'redeemed' is the right word. He didn't suddenly turn back to the Light. At most he abandoned the Shadow and gave up. 

 

And 2nd Barid very nicely put!!!  And that he didn't defeat was the right way to go in my opinion from what I got out of it the enternal battle is 4ever unless the Dark One can win.

 

Well thats what I figure anyway!

[Phylactery]

(that cake saying is dumb)

Thanks for the helpful input dude!

 

Balfire isn't the eternal death of a soul. You are still reborn, you just cannot be resurrected by the DO, unless only a tiny amount is used, besides the fact that it would probably be impossible to balefire yourself. RJ liked to stay away from the 'balefire yourself' situation:

Two points, here. First, I don't care about the mechanics of balefiring yourself, again it was just a thought on something Moridin could do to delete himself, not another ponderous theorycraft on what happens if you balefire yourself backwards in a mirror while in tel'aranrhiod and aren't wearing any underwear. Frankly, Moridin is demonstrated to be a proficient dreamwalker, and leaving aside balefire entirely, he could very well know that death there if fully manifested there (in the flesh) could be permanent death also. So he could have done that.

Please understand that the original context was not theorywork on balefiring yourself or the mechanics of balefire, but the assertion that if Moridin truly wanted to stop existing there were at least two avenues for him to explore regardless of TDO but he did not, therefore I believe he didn't really want to cease to exist, merely postured as if he did because of an existential issue of grievance which was resolved by LTT in the last confrontation.

My second point on this issue is just wow. I can't believe RJ said that. It's baffling to me that he would go against the lore of everything he ever said in the books. If your soul is removed from the pattern, as the books say it is when you're balefired, then you don't exist anymore; you're not in the DO's grasp, you're not awaiting being woven back in. I can't even count the number of times all the heroes think "nearly burned from the pattern entirely" or "nearly ceased to exist." I frankly can't understand why RJ would undermine the finality of balefire in some one-off interview. I almost wonder if it was said in a moment of complete lucidity because it just makes no sense in the context of the millions of things throughout the series reiterating the complete and total final removal from existence that balefire is. This quote just baffles me and I don't know what to do with it; I feel like I'm being forced to choose between believing one thing he said in an interview directly and all the things he said through his setting and characters and the books themselves. Why would he make a claim so inconsistent with his own literature? This baffles me and if it's really true, causes me to lose respect for him as a writer despite being absolutely in love with this series.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's not outlined in the notes, but I think of it as the soul that wanted to live found a body, and the one that wanted to die, did

That's fair, and I'm okay with it as an interpretation. Again I don't care about HOW the body swap happened, only that Moridin made a choice to save Rand.

 

It seems to me people are getting hung up on the types of questions that I assume get asked here a lot (how did they swap bodies, what happens when balefire etc) and misunderstanding that these were only tangents that revolved around my main point: I believe Moridin intentionally saved Rand because his belief in the sustainability of the Pattern was restored. 

 

If you are going to deal with anything I say, please deal with that statement, and sure, bring in the other stuff as support, if you must, but please link it back to the original proposed idea which was my belief that Moridin intentionally saved Rand because his belief in the sustainability of the Pattern was restored.

 

I don't even care if you disagree with me, I just think you guys don't realize how little I care about the mechanics of balefire and the body swap in light (I'm guessing) of how many people come on here demanding those kinds of answers. 

 

Thanks for trying to answer though! Again I'm not proposing a 100% Light-all-the-way conversion for Moridin! Merely that the conflict at the end of AMoL somehow reawakened his belief that the Pattern could be sustained IN SPITE of the Dark One (the original reason he turned to the DO) and therefore he chose to save Rand; he made a choice. Wasn't the ending all about choices?

 

Someone who could check the chapter and confirm if it was Rand's perspective when he carried Moridin out could go a long way in debunking it, if that's really what you're all interested in. Side note: what the hell do the people here have against villains that aren't cardboard cutouts and actually change their minds in the end? 

[Barid Bel Medar]

1) The mechanics of balefire here is an important issue in context of the question you are posing. As evidence you suggested Moridin should have gotten himself balefired if he wanted total oblivion. The answer is that balefire doesn't prevent someone from being reborn. Totally contextual. The second part about balefiring yourself was obviously humorous, and suggests RJ didn't care much for technicalities either.

 

Since you have expressed doubt about the consistency of RJ's statement and character believe, I'll clarify.  

 

First of all, RJ was very clear from the start that characters are not always trustworthy sources of information. Specifically, things that Moiraine says as truth are not actually true, they are simply what she believes to be true. As such, RJ on multiple occasions answered questions that contradicted what characters believed.

 

.Balefire erases the Threads in the Pattern, they are burned away completely and vanish this is true. When someone is balefired, they are dead, completely removed. However, their soul is not. It goes back into the 'soul pool' as it is described as, to be reborn again. Something like a stone which doesn't have a soul is completely erased and totally removed. The body of a person killed by balefire is gone completely from the Pattern as if it were never there. The soul can't be balefired though, thus, both are true. 

Here is the description of balefire: 

 

 

The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is.

 

Here is the a clarification that threads and souls are different things: 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 17th, 2011

JordanCon 2011 - Terez (Verbatim)

MARIE CURIE

Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern, right? You said so...

BRANDON SANDERSON

As I understand it, Robert Jordan specifically said that even inanimate objects have a thread.

......

MARIE CURIE

She pointed out that inanimate objects...their threads are burned back. But that also explains why a person who has one thread tied to their soul would be completely eliminated by balefire.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Mmmhmm.

 

In short, the Soul is 'born' into the world being tied to a 'Thread'. Balefire burns away that Thread, which destroys the connection between the Soul and life. Thus, the person is completely erased from the Pattern. However, the Soul is not, it can be reborn again tied to another thread in the future. 

 

However, there was indeed some confusion and many people thought the same thing until RJ clarified multiple times - not just in that interview. Brandon Sanderson was surprised himself until he read the notes. The problem stemmed from - I think - the description of a Thread and a Soul, which are two different things. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 16th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - kcf (Paraphrased)

  BRANDON SANDERSON

It was also mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone can't be reborn into the Pattern.

Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this—so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.

 

 

 

 

 

If you are going to deal with anything I say, please deal with that statement, and sure, bring in the other stuff as support, if you must, but please link it back to the original proposed idea which was my belief that Moridin intentionally saved Rand because his belief in the sustainability of the Pattern was restored.

 

I don't even care if you disagree with me, I just think you guys don't realize how little I care about the mechanics of balefire and the body swap in light (I'm guessing) of how many people come on here demanding those kinds of answers. 

 

Thanks for trying to answer though! Again I'm not proposing a 100% Light-all-the-way conversion for Moridin! Merely that the conflict at the end of AMoL somehow reawakened his belief that the Pattern could be sustained IN SPITE of the Dark One (the original reason he turned to the DO) and therefore he chose to save Rand; he made a choice. Wasn't the ending all about choices?
 

Someone who could check the chapter and confirm if it was Rand's perspective when he carried Moridin out could go a long way in debunking it, if that's really what you're all interested in. Side note: what the hell do the people here have against villains that aren't cardboard cutouts and actually change their minds in the end? 

 

 

 

 

1) I'm not sure what you mean by 'sustainability of the Pattern'. Unless you suggest that Ishamael's reason for turning to the Shadow was because he thought it was inevitable that the Dark One would eventually win at some point. It is true to an extent, but it was not his only reason for doing so. Ishmael hated the idea of the endless battles and WANTED the Pattern to end. Realising the DO could never win wouldn't make him happy. 

 

2) In essence, I think you have it right, and that Moridin made the choice. If he shared the same realization that Rand did, in that the DO couldn't win and the Pattern was sustainable, he chose to die because he knew he couldn't accomplish what he wanted. If he didn't share the realisation, then he chose to die because he knew he couldn't win in this life, and therefore there was no reason to live. Thus you could say he 'allowed' Rand his victory, since there was nothing he could do, he gave up, and didn't try and take Rand with him for the hell of it. 

 

3) It is in fact, quite the opposite. It was RJ who was opposed to the idea of any of the Forsaken even being mildly redeemable. One of the many criticisms is that he treated them with almost personal disdain, and that they were thoroughly irredeemable, evil caricatures. He said Sammael wasn't worthy of having his death shown in book, which speaks volumes.  

 

People - myself included - preferred to believe the contrary. I believed Demandred was not truly evil, and that he could have been redeemed. Pre-AMOL I wrote up a whole thing about the change in Demandred's nature. Brandon - who wrote a lot of Demandred's arc himself - hinted at this also, how Demandred had changed, but that wasn't in the story RJ set for him. 

 

More than a few people thought Lanfear, Asmodean and Moridin were all candidates for being redeemed. It's not that people are against the idea, I know personally I would have liked it if at least one did, but the way the story transpired, it seems that none were. 

 

Edit: As for the chapter coming out of Shayol Ghul, the PoV is Rand. 

 

 

With a gasp, Rand reached open air as the rocks slammed down behind him, locking together like clenched teeth.

 

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. 

[Ismail Elezi]

As others said, balefiring yourself isn't really an option. Moridin would have died (assuming that it is possible to balefire himself) and if the balefire was strong enough (likely yes, cause Moridin was powerful) then the Dark One wouldn't be able to resurrect him.

But Moridin, would have been reborn on an another Age (strictly speaking, it could be even in the same age) and The Dark One (if it needed Moridin) could have got him again. And the story would be repeated. Remember, Moridin himself thought that he was in the middle of fight of Dark One and Dragon for eternity, not only currently.

The only way for Ishamael (let's call him like that, it is his original name and sounds better) to die for eternity was for Dark One to take over the world and basically destroy that. So, Ishamael was a truly nihilistic - but also tragic - character.

I liked him a lot.

[Sabio]

I would of hated had any of the Forsaken been redeemed.  After all every forsaken had done some majorly evil stuff, thousands of murders on their hands, etc.   For one of them to be redeemed it would of taken something rather massive to counter all the evil they have done. 

[Bannakaffalatta]

Quote

(that cake saying is dumb)

Thanks for the helpful input dude!

 

 

I like that that is the only thing you saw as input. And seriously the cake saying is dumb, what the hell else are you gonna do with cake?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, let's move on from the cake, please. 

[Phylactery]

Barid, thank you!

 

You nailed it. Your post answered pretty much all the questions I needed answered and had good backup for its claims.

 

So, Faith restored! Haha and I can leave this topic alone now. But first, my last points:

 

 

 

Balefire erases the Threads in the Pattern, they are burned away completely and vanish this is true. When someone is balefired, they are dead, completely removed. However, their soul is not.

Thanks for explaining, I do understand that now, though it does annoy me a bit. Haha I mean, I guess I misunderstood the metaphysics of the setting. I believed 'The Pattern' encompassed everything that was, spiritual or physical, therefore when I saw "thread burned from the pattern" I understood that as body, soul, physical, nonphysical, all of it deleted from the pattern. Bah!

 

 

Unless you suggest that Ishamael's reason for turning to the Shadow was because he thought it was inevitable that the Dark One would eventually win at some point. It is true to an extent, but it was not his only reason for doing so. Ishmael hated the idea of the endless battles and WANTED the Pattern to end. Realising the DO could never win wouldn't make him happy. 

Ah, maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was a White Ajah Aes Sedai who, like others, wanted to believe in the Pattern and the Light, but whose fall came about because it was "proven to be a lie" logically. I suppose I see a difference between losing your faith in something and having it ripped away from you by a very specific set of circumstances. I always saw Ishamael as a character who never really lost his faith, but had his ability to believe impeded by a technicality (the inevitable falling apart of the pattern). So if he couldn't have eternal security, he felt life was not worth living. There are real life analogous concepts in our world, maybe I was reading into it but I thought that was how it was presented.

 

 

 

It is in fact, quite the opposite. It was RJ who was opposed to the idea of any of the Forsaken even being mildly redeemable

Bummer dude. It all kind of makes sense now. I had no idea RJ had such a personal investment in the negative perception of the Forsaken. I mean don't get me wrong I love irredeemable scoundrels who make no apologies for their villainy in literature, but I had hoped at least one would have second thoughts. It really does feel like kind of a waste, but that's the way he wanted it, I can't argue with that. On the flip side? I am SO damn glad Lanfear wasn't redeemed. I would have been so annoyed if she somehow magically turned good in the end. Did feel some pity for her though.

 

 

 

He said Sammael wasn't worthy of having his death shown in book, which speaks volumes.

Damn! Cold!

 

 

 

Edit: As for the chapter coming out of Shayol Ghul, the PoV is Rand. 

The nail in the coffin for my theory my man. It's a shame but I mean it when I say Thanks!

 

 

 

So, Ishamael was a truly nihilistic - but also tragic - character. I liked him a lot.

Same dude. I liked the thought (as I started on earlier) of someone who tragically lost their ability to believe having it restored at the last moment. Just that reinforcement of the Light giving redemption until the very end. Would have been great. The Forsaken were LTT's friends first. To see a "homecoming" between millenia old friends would have been beautiful. There's something about that idea that just gives me goosebumps.

 

 

 

After all every forsaken had done some majorly evil stuff, thousands of murders on their hands, etc.   For one of them to be redeemed it would of taken something rather massive to counter all the evil they have done. 

Truth be told, you're really right. When I say Redemption for Moridin, I don't entirely mean having his deeds washed away and him being completely restored to the Light. I just meant more like him believing in Hope and the Light again. I suppose what I really mean is hope for his soul, when it's reborn (despite his prior wishes that it not be). In the cycle of rebirth in the WoT, really just saying "I'm okay with this" (much less "I believe again") could be the first step in multiple lifetimes of recovery. I suppose with any redemptive act, however minor, I see the potential for full and complete redemption for a soul in the grand scheme of the many lifetimes afforded in one turning of the wheel. Maybe it's a broad scope to look down when in reality in this story the one character died without atoning for anything he did or even verbally confirming his reaffirmed belief in the Light and the Pattern, but I see the potential for that with one "karmically positive" action based on the metaphysics of the Wheel. 

 

One thing I've often wondered is if regardless of their reasons, the bad souls are the same every time. I know that the Dragon reborn is the same soul every time. But is his best friend always a traitor and also always the soul of Moridin/Ishamael? I don't believe so, because that didn't happen during Rand's cycle as the Dragon. Granted his "traitor soul" was still alive so that could be a metaphysical caveat on that. Oh well, either way I like to hope everyone in the world takes turns being Matts, Perrins, and Lans (oh God, to be a Lan) and then Ishamaels, Sammaels, and Graendals. I could be way off (and am happy to know it if so) but that's generally how I see it. I guess my little fan theory/hope was that Ishamael could eventually be a Perrin or a Matt again, maybe even a Moiraine given his disposition towards big theological issues. Haha even if this little thought that started this thread didn't pan out, I feel that maybe, just maybe, that last possibility is true: that Ishamael may yet be reborn as a person who can keep to the Light due to the "medication" his soul received at the end of this Wheel's turning.

[mb]

to me there was at least some chance of at least these dead Forsaken to be redeemable when they lived::

-Moridin/Ishamael; Moridin possibly having a higher chance after the balefire-caused bond.

-Lanfear/Cyndane; since she was attracted to a Light sided character.

-Asmodean; since he was teaching saidin to Rand.

-Arangar/Bathamel; Arangar seemed to spend a considerable amount of time among Light sided characters.

 

of the Forsaken that survived Tarmon Gaidon, Hessalam I guess would have the highest chance of being redeemable since she now serves a Light sided character.

of the other 2, not sure which would be second.  Moghedien is now a damane to a Seanchan, and suldam in general seem skilled in breaking channelers.  Mesaana now has a child's mind and lives among Light sided characters; children (in any fiction) seem to be most mold-able.

[Sabio]

@Phylactery, BS made one mention of LTT and Ishy souls being woven together in the pattern often like Brigette and Gaidal. but nothing to suggest one is always destined to be good and the other evil (A topic called Forsaken Reborn I think its on page 4).  Sometimes they may work together, sometime we know the dragon has gone to evil, so stands to reason some times Ishy stayed good.   But souls aren't good or evil so next time Dems soul might stay good while other souls decide to go evil.  So the forsaken this time aren't necessarily destined to be forsaken again.

 

There was a good thing in the BWB about why so few Darkfriends ever sought redemption.  This could explain why no forsaken really truly sought to redeem themselves.  "Renunciation of the Dark didn't mean automatic forgiveness for the crimes done while in the service to the Shadow.  Friends of the Dark could find redemption, but they would probably also fins punishment, often death for their crimes.  For most Darkfriends the thought of gaining redemption only to go to the grave usually left them deciding to stay sworn to the Dark.  Life under the Shadow was still life."  Also they saw what Asmo's fate was when he decided to join Rand.  Verin's insight on what the DO look for in his followers, especially the forsaken could also explain this.  Selfishness, Envy, etc.  aren't traits that will make one sacrifice their lives for the greater good.  Lanfear and Ishy when presented with a good case why they should forsake the DO still couldn't overcome their base nature and do it.  Why help Rand win when you will still face execution, and on the chance the DO won now this Forsaken who changed sides would be in BIG trouble.

[MarkDiLillo]

In the ending that BS wrote, Moridin was not redeemed in any way shape or form.  He was pure evil and there was nothing unclear about that.

 

The theme of redemption is throughout the series though and I do suspect that RJ had originally planned for some form of redemption for one of the forsaken.  Moridin is a likely candidate because of the reasoning behind his choices for turning to the dark and due to the link between Rand and him.  I would not have been surprised to see a last minute redemption if RJ had written the ending himself.  That being said...it is a fact that throughout the series that the bad guys are bad and the good guys are good.  As much as RJ had lead up to a possible redemption scenario, the primary characters are pretty black and white in their disposition throughout the series.

 

Outside of Moridin, I think the only other forsaken that would have been a good redemption candidate would have been Moghedien.  Lanfear also had a very strong case for redemption, but the way BS finished her story seemed to follow a predetermined path from the notes so I think it was more of wishful thinking on my part.

 

Possible bolstering to the thought that Moridin may have originally been intended for redemption:  RJ wrote the ending in advance.  Rand carried out Moridin's body.  Why would he do this?  Unless he really knew a great deal about what needed to happen in the end and wanted Moridin's body purely to trick everyone into believing he was dead, there was no reason not to leave the guy in there to rot.  Perhaps Rand thought to save him?  We'll never know.

[jack of shadows]

@mark d,

"unless he really knew a great deal about what needed to happen in the end..."

i think he did,rand probably figured the body swap out,let me summarise what rand already knew before

he entered the pit of doom:

1."something has to touch him,something to close the gap,but he was able to taint it,"(from lews therin 

whispering,tgs), so sealing the bore using only saidin or saidar  was out of the question.

 

2.rand learned about moridin's ability to draw upon the true power due to their balefire-forged bond.

 

3.rand knew that callandor was also a true power sa'angreal  "the sword final secret lay bare to him now,

it was a trap,and a clever one,for this weapon was a sa'angreal not for just the one power but for the true

power as well" mol.

 

4."he shall hold the blade of light in his hands,and the three shall be one.tgs. min figured this one out, i.e.

the three are true power,saidar and saidin,rand couldn't draw upon the one power and true power simultaneously,

another channeler  was needed.note that the prophecy said "in his hands"(plural),not in his hand,indicating that

someone else would hold callandor,not necessarily the dragon reborn.

 

5.min's vision"i saw you and another man.i couldn't make out either face,but i knew one was you,you touched 

and seemed to merge into one another.." cos.

 

the only missing piece from  the body swap puzzle was moridin himself,and rand took care of this "tell your master!

rand commanded.tell him this fight is not like the others.tell him i'm tired of minions,that  i'm finished with his

petty movement of pawns.tell him that i'm coming for him!".

poor moridin,he took the bait,hook,line and sinker.

we cannot ignore rand's tendency to think outside the box,he proved it time and time again, e.g.,black tower,

cairhienin academy,cleansing,dragon peace,so if anyone could piece it all together it's rand.

[Sabio]

Which was a big flaws of the forsaken, they never thought of Rand as being Rand.  They always thought of Rand as LTT so assumed he would do what LTT did.  It never occurred to them Rand would think outside the box and do things his own way.

 

As for not leaving him in there to rot, the cave was closing.  Rand probably wouldn't of had the time to do what was needed to do in the cave.  Not to mention swapping bodies in there would of left him in no condition to escape.  So you carry him out, do what needs to be done outside, and wait for rescue.  You saw how weak he was in the tent, so swapping bodies in the cave and coming out on his own would of been impossible.  Only flaw would of been had one of the few people who could identify Moridin upped and killed him on the spot.  I could see Moriane coming up and being like "ohh one of the forsaken *channels a small stream of balefire at the unconscious Moridin."  I wish it was written how Rand figured it out, but since the three ladies weren't surprised and he had items left for him somewhere along the line he knew it would of at least been possible.  Could of been LTT memories also helped him.