Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Phylactery

Member
  • Posts

    5
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Phylactery's Achievements

Apprentice

Apprentice (3/16)

  • First Post
  • Conversation Starter
  • Week One Done
  • One Month Later
  • One Year In

Recent Badges

  1. Verin and Moiraine, those women saved the world. The two who would do LITERALLY ANYTHING IT TOOK to keep the wheel turning free of the Dark One's influence. They saved the world, and Nynaeve made it act right 🙂
  2. Barid, thank you! You nailed it. Your post answered pretty much all the questions I needed answered and had good backup for its claims. So, Faith restored! Haha and I can leave this topic alone now. But first, my last points: Thanks for explaining, I do understand that now, though it does annoy me a bit. Haha I mean, I guess I misunderstood the metaphysics of the setting. I believed 'The Pattern' encompassed everything that was, spiritual or physical, therefore when I saw "thread burned from the pattern" I understood that as body, soul, physical, nonphysical, all of it deleted from the pattern. Bah! Ah, maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was a White Ajah Aes Sedai who, like others, wanted to believe in the Pattern and the Light, but whose fall came about because it was "proven to be a lie" logically. I suppose I see a difference between losing your faith in something and having it ripped away from you by a very specific set of circumstances. I always saw Ishamael as a character who never really lost his faith, but had his ability to believe impeded by a technicality (the inevitable falling apart of the pattern). So if he couldn't have eternal security, he felt life was not worth living. There are real life analogous concepts in our world, maybe I was reading into it but I thought that was how it was presented. Bummer dude. It all kind of makes sense now. I had no idea RJ had such a personal investment in the negative perception of the Forsaken. I mean don't get me wrong I love irredeemable scoundrels who make no apologies for their villainy in literature, but I had hoped at least one would have second thoughts. It really does feel like kind of a waste, but that's the way he wanted it, I can't argue with that. On the flip side? I am SO damn glad Lanfear wasn't redeemed. I would have been so annoyed if she somehow magically turned good in the end. Did feel some pity for her though. Damn! Cold! The nail in the coffin for my theory my man. It's a shame but I mean it when I say Thanks! Same dude. I liked the thought (as I started on earlier) of someone who tragically lost their ability to believe having it restored at the last moment. Just that reinforcement of the Light giving redemption until the very end. Would have been great. The Forsaken were LTT's friends first. To see a "homecoming" between millenia old friends would have been beautiful. There's something about that idea that just gives me goosebumps. Truth be told, you're really right. When I say Redemption for Moridin, I don't entirely mean having his deeds washed away and him being completely restored to the Light. I just meant more like him believing in Hope and the Light again. I suppose what I really mean is hope for his soul, when it's reborn (despite his prior wishes that it not be). In the cycle of rebirth in the WoT, really just saying "I'm okay with this" (much less "I believe again") could be the first step in multiple lifetimes of recovery. I suppose with any redemptive act, however minor, I see the potential for full and complete redemption for a soul in the grand scheme of the many lifetimes afforded in one turning of the wheel. Maybe it's a broad scope to look down when in reality in this story the one character died without atoning for anything he did or even verbally confirming his reaffirmed belief in the Light and the Pattern, but I see the potential for that with one "karmically positive" action based on the metaphysics of the Wheel. One thing I've often wondered is if regardless of their reasons, the bad souls are the same every time. I know that the Dragon reborn is the same soul every time. But is his best friend always a traitor and also always the soul of Moridin/Ishamael? I don't believe so, because that didn't happen during Rand's cycle as the Dragon. Granted his "traitor soul" was still alive so that could be a metaphysical caveat on that. Oh well, either way I like to hope everyone in the world takes turns being Matts, Perrins, and Lans (oh God, to be a Lan) and then Ishamaels, Sammaels, and Graendals. I could be way off (and am happy to know it if so) but that's generally how I see it. I guess my little fan theory/hope was that Ishamael could eventually be a Perrin or a Matt again, maybe even a Moiraine given his disposition towards big theological issues. Haha even if this little thought that started this thread didn't pan out, I feel that maybe, just maybe, that last possibility is true: that Ishamael may yet be reborn as a person who can keep to the Light due to the "medication" his soul received at the end of this Wheel's turning.
  3. Thanks for the helpful input dude! Two points, here. First, I don't care about the mechanics of balefiring yourself, again it was just a thought on something Moridin could do to delete himself, not another ponderous theorycraft on what happens if you balefire yourself backwards in a mirror while in tel'aranrhiod and aren't wearing any underwear. Frankly, Moridin is demonstrated to be a proficient dreamwalker, and leaving aside balefire entirely, he could very well know that death there if fully manifested there (in the flesh) could be permanent death also. So he could have done that. Please understand that the original context was not theorywork on balefiring yourself or the mechanics of balefire, but the assertion that if Moridin truly wanted to stop existing there were at least two avenues for him to explore regardless of TDO but he did not, therefore I believe he didn't really want to cease to exist, merely postured as if he did because of an existential issue of grievance which was resolved by LTT in the last confrontation. My second point on this issue is just wow. I can't believe RJ said that. It's baffling to me that he would go against the lore of everything he ever said in the books. If your soul is removed from the pattern, as the books say it is when you're balefired, then you don't exist anymore; you're not in the DO's grasp, you're not awaiting being woven back in. I can't even count the number of times all the heroes think "nearly burned from the pattern entirely" or "nearly ceased to exist." I frankly can't understand why RJ would undermine the finality of balefire in some one-off interview. I almost wonder if it was said in a moment of complete lucidity because it just makes no sense in the context of the millions of things throughout the series reiterating the complete and total final removal from existence that balefire is. This quote just baffles me and I don't know what to do with it; I feel like I'm being forced to choose between believing one thing he said in an interview directly and all the things he said through his setting and characters and the books themselves. Why would he make a claim so inconsistent with his own literature? This baffles me and if it's really true, causes me to lose respect for him as a writer despite being absolutely in love with this series. That's fair, and I'm okay with it as an interpretation. Again I don't care about HOW the body swap happened, only that Moridin made a choice to save Rand. It seems to me people are getting hung up on the types of questions that I assume get asked here a lot (how did they swap bodies, what happens when balefire etc) and misunderstanding that these were only tangents that revolved around my main point: I believe Moridin intentionally saved Rand because his belief in the sustainability of the Pattern was restored. If you are going to deal with anything I say, please deal with that statement, and sure, bring in the other stuff as support, if you must, but please link it back to the original proposed idea which was my belief that Moridin intentionally saved Rand because his belief in the sustainability of the Pattern was restored. I don't even care if you disagree with me, I just think you guys don't realize how little I care about the mechanics of balefire and the body swap in light (I'm guessing) of how many people come on here demanding those kinds of answers. Thanks for trying to answer though! Again I'm not proposing a 100% Light-all-the-way conversion for Moridin! Merely that the conflict at the end of AMoL somehow reawakened his belief that the Pattern could be sustained IN SPITE of the Dark One (the original reason he turned to the DO) and therefore he chose to save Rand; he made a choice. Wasn't the ending all about choices? Someone who could check the chapter and confirm if it was Rand's perspective when he carried Moridin out could go a long way in debunking it, if that's really what you're all interested in. Side note: what the hell do the people here have against villains that aren't cardboard cutouts and actually change their minds in the end?
  4. Thank you for moving it, I got a little confused between the main and sub forums. Brown hair can turn blonde sometimes! Yeah, I am more interested in the implications of Moridin choosing to save Rand (if indeed that's what happened) than the mechanics of it. Ultimately I don't care much how it happened, just for my part. I will go back and double check this, though I'm at work at the moment without access to my book =/. It is kind of a conundrum, isn't it? Haha, if you balefire yourself wouldn't you be reversing the actions of person who did the thing that made you disappear? The more strongly you do it to try to overcome this the further back it reverses your removal of yourself. Trippy! I had a friend ask what would happen if you balefired the guy who invented balefire. We debated for a while on if the pattern would simply allow it to exist again through someone else's invention as it was an inevitability. Someone could always discover the weaves. Again though, if he wanted to stop existing, he could have jumped in front of Rand's or any of the Forsaken's balefire's at many points in the series (some where he was physically present for the rest of the fight). That's assuming a fellow Forsaken wouldn't do it for free (probably only due to fear from DO retribution). Such notes and people may exist out there, part of why I asked on here. I'm not huge on 'word of god' answers to questions in fiction, but it is ultimately the best resource. Anyone who can confirm an absolute RJ/BS answer to this would be greatly appreciated, even if it will probably shit on my dreams =). I uhh... will try not to sound like a smartass in answering this but, that's exactly what Balefire is? It removes you from the Pattern forever. That's exactly what he wanted. Again, I don't see why he couldn't have done it (or arranged for it to happen) if he really wanted complete and total, "quantum" existential annihilation. Again, this is the backbone of my theory that what he really wanted was to be proven wrong, but he went about demanding better answers from people like a sulky teenager, huffing around and spewing angst on anything that got in a 1 mile radius of him. I know we saw nothing of desiring redemption throughout the whole series, that was the angsty teenager bit. My theory revolves around the idea that at the very very last minute, he got the one thing he was dreaming of ever since he hit his hitch in logic back in the First Age: A way to reconcile hope and a belief in the perpetual preservation of the Pattern under the Light. Haha well someone had to do it. Here again, would be okay with this, if someone has such information. I'm asking to see if it can be found if this issue hasn't been tackled yet, though again ultimately I don't need author confirmation, nor would I necessarily abide strictly by it even if I had it. Well, there are two things to say here. The first is that, Rand saving Moridin because he figured out the tricky riddle of Egwene's dreams/Min's vision seems a bit cheap to me. It reduces the "two rivers" heroic virtue you mentioned of saving the life of someone who was your enemy to "remembering to grab your spare body on your way out the door." I feel this is a bit of a cheap interpretation, even if it's the truth, because it makes Rand, essentially, into less of a hero and more of a functionary that fulfilled his job and wanted to have his cake and eat it too - at the expense of another being's consciousness, I might add. That just doesn't sound very genuinely heroic to me. Clever? Sure, but I feel that snatching up the unconscious body of his enemy on his way out of the final fight in order to ensure he gets a free body swap per dreams/visions he's heard is not in keeping with Rand's trajectory as a hero (not to mention the fact that as much as Rand changes in book 12, I still don't put it within his capacity to properly and accurately interpret those dreams/visions). Now the second part: I'm not saying Moridin suddenly got full of butterflies and roses and his heart grew to 10 times its original size. I'm saying there's a very thin line between love and hate. Sometimes, when you've loved someone for a long time, and are hurt by them, your love can become a similar magnitude of hate in the blink of an eye. That doesn't mean you cease to love them - in a way it's a testament to how much you do. They meant so much to you, that for them to let you down or betray you in that way, it's that much worse a violation of what you believed was true. All this to say, while LTT never betrayed Ishamael, I do think he felt his friend's inability to convince him of the eternal feasibility of the Light's plan and the Pattern's solidity as a failure, and his own faith in the Pattern as misplaced. Ultimately the theological story he'd been fed from childhood seemed a lie, and the loss of his ability to believe in it (the realization of the inevitability of entropy) was a kind of betrayal, and as his closest friend LTT was his "face" for that. My point here is, the breaking of Ishamael's faith and his hatred for LTT are both linked, ultimately, to the root issue of the untenability of the Pattern remaining eternally whole and being ultimately worth preserving. So to clarify, I know Moridin didn't suddenly go "I love LTT again, bros for life, Light forever!" - but I do think a number of things may have snapped into place while he (potentially) heard the exchanges between the Dark One and Rand, and he realized the truth of Rand's revelation: that the DO was not really the enemy, mankind was its own. The Dark One is just an enabler, and a power source, but humans have always had the power to choose their destiny. Rand's reason for not obliterating the Dark One could have been what made Moridin finally get it, that the pattern could last eternally, it only required that people make that choice. So all of this - like I said, millenia of deeply rooted issues for Moridin - came to a head in one specific instant, and maybe, just maybe, he said to himself I'm going to make a choice to preserve the pattern, which also happens to reconcile my ages-long hatred of a friend I once loved, and which also happens to rectify the hitch in logic I hit thousands of years ago. Just a thought! Sorry this is long, but I like to respond to as many people as try to post to be fair.
  5. So I've just finished the series for the first time, and I have some thoughts about Moridin (and also posting here for the first time; I think I did it right) RJ played a fair bit with people being turned to the shadow, even very nearly our dear protagonist. But there was a continuous refrain throughout the series of redemption - that even the most fallen could come back to the Light. This played out in a few minor ways, but at first glance I think it may seem it was never really touched, especially with the big bads, the Forsaken. I had two I desperately wanted redemption for: Moridin and Graendal. Moridin because I understood and sympathized with his reasons for joining the shadow, and Graendal because despite the fact that she ended very badly, there were a good several books where I could see some of that ascetic, altruistic priestess coming through just a little bit despite her superficial insistence nothing of the kind remained inside her. Seriously, look closely and you'll see it - yes she dicks over loads of Forsaken (she was probably the worst in that regard) but with Sammael specifically, and a few instances I remember noticing but regret I didn't write down for reference, frequently helps other Forsaken at personal cost/risk. Anyway, she didn't turn out that way. Haha fine, sure. I have a theory though. I think the entire ending of Memory of Light (last chance for anyone who's not read it) actually confirms that Moridin was redeemed, or at the very least committed a redemptive act. Moridin, in Rand's body, carries Rand in Moridin's out, ensuring that he can live even though they presumably have already transferred consciousnesses (I'm still not clear on the exact details about that, but I'm chalking it up to crossed streams and an ultimately benevolent Pattern/Creator). Now I've read through and seem some people post here about how this is some setup or xanatos gambit for the next cycle, whatever. But I disagree with that analysis. I think Moridin genuinely found some degree of redemption in the end and intentionally saved his friend. I say it specifically that way, because as we all know once upon a time, they were. Here are some of my reasons: Moridin came to the shadow out of genuine despair over, essentially, the philosophical inevitability of entropy. I don't think I need to hammer this home, but I think it's the key point in his redemption in the end. The Dark One, by Rand's own observation while in the non-pattern place (Void?) was never going to grant Moridin the oblivion he wanted, and it's entirely possible that Moridin, in that moment, may have been experiencing, or at least somehow privy to the interactions between the two. That may be a stretch but it's not essential to my theory, it's really just a reason he may have even had confirmation that the Dark One was never going to grant him oblivion. Regardless if he knew or not, this brings me to my major point: Moridin, despite the constant, raging hard on he seems to have for non-existence, really did not want to cease to exist; he merely thought he must as a philosophical outworking of the inevitability of the Dark One's victory. Think about this, and tell me if this is a completely juvenile observation, but if Moridin really wanted oblivion, he could have balefired himself at any time! It's not that hard, just bend the weave back, or hell if it's that complicated, make a gateway back to yourself. Even in that last big dark side rally the Forsaken had in Moridin's lovely hellscape, there was this hesitation inside him - something I frequently saw (I admit I could have been reading into it, and again, I've just finished the series so pardon if my lack of supporting quotes looks lazy, I'm just still digesting) in other appearances. At times it's like he's going overboard to prove just how nihilistic he is, because deep down he wants someone to prove him wrong. What he really desires is everything he believed the Light and the Pattern to be, he just hit a hitch in logic that kept him from that. I even remember him seemingly demanding an answer from Rand when he's pulled into his Dreamshard - I distinctly remember getting the impression he was demanding some kind of justification, some reason to believe again. Again, tell me if I'm just reading into this. My bottom line, though, is that I feel Moridin, in the end, on some level, realized what Rand did: that the Dark One isn't really the enemy; he's really nothing. It's about choice. I think somewhere deep down, that realization combined with the understanding of the Dark One's "image" for the world bridged that millennia old gap and spoke to that hole inside of him. This is why I genuinely believe that Moridin, despite all outward evidence to the contrary, found a redemptive moment, a choice for the Light in the very end. Do you remember what Rand said about him while in that Void? "You want peace, and the Dark One will never give you peace." Maybe his 'peace' was surrendering to the concept that although the Dark One will always come against the Pattern, the Light can ultimately prevail if men choose for it to. It was a combination of renewed faith in the Light and in his friend (and by extension, humanity). This is how I interpreted his character and the things I saw; again specific examples can be dug up but boy do I ever not relish the thought of going back for those tidbits just now haha. Please tell me what I'm missing (if anything) or that I'm a deranged fanboy that just wants to believe in happy endings =P (Or that I'm right, you know that's cool too!)
×
×
  • Create New...