Matt spin off

[Mr Ares]

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.

 

I agree that the Perrin stuff should've been moved to TGS, but most of the stuff in ToM I enjoyed.

 

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

[realspkr]

TL;DR and back to OP:

 

Nothing written about these characters could ever satisfy at this point. The truly epic nature of the series wouldn't allow books detailing the following of specific characters without leaving questions like "Why didn't _____ go to help?" or "What's the rush?" Short stories might work because they can be extremely limited in scope.

 

If there were to be new books in the universe they need to either be about how the wheel prepared the universe for Rand's story, or it needs to be in an age that speaks of Rand's story as legends. Perhaps one Aes Sedai could survive as an ancient that interacts somehow, but generations would needs to have passed.

 

Personally, I would rather the whole last book turn into a bad dream sequence and be re-written; especially the last chapters. Although I greatly preferred RJ's story telling to BS's in the WoT series, I think what RJ left behind didn't fit his own story lines and characters as they evolved since he wrote it.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

 

 

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.It wasn't an issue for you, or for me. It was still an issue for quite a few people, so it's entirely justified to highlight it as an issue, and "it wasn't an issue for me" is not a valid rebuttal. It was an issue for people because of an underlying structural problem - even if you know what's going on it doesn't detract from there being an underlying structural problem.

 

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

In KoD we get the ending to several lingering plotlines - the Succession ends, Mat marries Tuon and is reunited with the Band, Perrin rescues Faile. While the characters might not have joined up, the plotlines that were stopping them from joining up are done with, in many cases (it's worth noting that I said "RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out". Storylines, not characters, and numerous as well as spread out - pointing out that KoD ended several plotlines, which you did, only validates my point). Things are moving towards an endgame. However, that momentum is then squandered. Subplots are given far more time than they really warrant, at a time when the series should be (and was) cutting down on those same subplots (look at the economy with which RTJ dealt with Ituralde's plotline in CoT and KoD - a couple of prologue POVs and we here about how his campaign is going from the Seanchan near the end. Then Brandon gives it greater focus and page time, when it didn't need it). RJ had a slow middle, and began picking up the pace as he approached the end - Brandon might have paced his books faster than, for example, CoT, but you're still comparing the pace of the middle to that of the end, rather than just the pace of RJ against that of Brandon. Even if RJ's pace was objectively slower, it was slower at a time when the pace was naturally going to be slower, so it isn't necessarily slower in relative terms.

[WWWwombat]

That point of Dom's about the 3-way split is a good one, although I don't know why it's an indictment of Brandon so much as TOR.  The structural issues severely lessened the potential for eucatastrophe, which is a very important part of epic fantasy.

Edited November 27, 2014 by WWWwombat

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

 

 

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.It wasn't an issue for you, or for me. It was still an issue for quite a few people, so it's entirely justified to highlight it as an issue, and "it wasn't an issue for me" is not a valid rebuttal. It was an issue for people because of an underlying structural problem - even if you know what's going on it doesn't detract from there being an underlying structural problem.

 

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

In KoD we get the ending to several lingering plotlines - the Succession ends, Mat marries Tuon and is reunited with the Band, Perrin rescues Faile. While the characters might not have joined up, the plotlines that were stopping them from joining up are done with, in many cases (it's worth noting that I said "RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out". Storylines, not characters, and numerous as well as spread out - pointing out that KoD ended several plotlines, which you did, only validates my point). Things are moving towards an endgame. However, that momentum is then squandered. Subplots are given far more time than they really warrant, at a time when the series should be (and was) cutting down on those same subplots (look at the economy with which RTJ dealt with Ituralde's plotline in CoT and KoD - a couple of prologue POVs and we here about how his campaign is going from the Seanchan near the end. Then Brandon gives it greater focus and page time, when it didn't need it). RJ had a slow middle, and began picking up the pace as he approached the end - Brandon might have paced his books faster than, for example, CoT, but you're still comparing the pace of the middle to that of the end, rather than just the pace of RJ against that of Brandon. Even if RJ's pace was objectively slower, it was slower at a time when the pace was naturally going to be slower, so it isn't necessarily slower in relative terms.

 

 

I did not have a problem with the pace. And might confusion about the 'two Tams' say more about the reader than the writing? The story sped up in the last three because it needed to, and it did. Brandon was going at a relatively faster pace. I actually though AMoL should be LONGER because we didn't see enough of Perrin. 

[DemandredFO]

EotW, GH & tDR would be fairly easy but then it gets more difficult as the inner monologues and failures of communication increase.

As for the OP, I don't think the red sails belonged in the series since there will never be any more. I also think a foresaken level channeler needed to remain free to fight the reconquest and the cleansing of the blight lands.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

 

 

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.It wasn't an issue for you, or for me. It was still an issue for quite a few people, so it's entirely justified to highlight it as an issue, and "it wasn't an issue for me" is not a valid rebuttal. It was an issue for people because of an underlying structural problem - even if you know what's going on it doesn't detract from there being an underlying structural problem.

 

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

In KoD we get the ending to several lingering plotlines - the Succession ends, Mat marries Tuon and is reunited with the Band, Perrin rescues Faile. While the characters might not have joined up, the plotlines that were stopping them from joining up are done with, in many cases (it's worth noting that I said "RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out". Storylines, not characters, and numerous as well as spread out - pointing out that KoD ended several plotlines, which you did, only validates my point). Things are moving towards an endgame. However, that momentum is then squandered. Subplots are given far more time than they really warrant, at a time when the series should be (and was) cutting down on those same subplots (look at the economy with which RTJ dealt with Ituralde's plotline in CoT and KoD - a couple of prologue POVs and we here about how his campaign is going from the Seanchan near the end. Then Brandon gives it greater focus and page time, when it didn't need it). RJ had a slow middle, and began picking up the pace as he approached the end - Brandon might have paced his books faster than, for example, CoT, but you're still comparing the pace of the middle to that of the end, rather than just the pace of RJ against that of Brandon. Even if RJ's pace was objectively slower, it was slower at a time when the pace was naturally going to be slower, so it isn't necessarily slower in relative terms.

 

 

I did not have a problem with the pace. And might confusion about the 'two Tams' say more about the reader than the writing? The story sped up in the last three because it needed to, and it did. Brandon was going at a relatively faster pace. I actually though AMoL should be LONGER because we didn't see enough of Perrin. 

 

"I didn't have a problem with it" doesn't constitute a defence. You do actually need to provide an argument. As for the Two Tams, bear in mind that the structure used created the opportunity for confusion. EotW has an incident with a nested flashback, where we apparently have the same scene twice (the second time is actually a flashback to the first time, which is itself shown in flashback) - while a close reading makes clear what's going on (so the reader can be blamed, if one chooses), the author has still chosen to put things across in an unnecessarily confusing way. The same is true here. When the various storylines weren't interacting with one another it didn't matter if they were in sync or if one was rushing ahead. But when you have the storylines crossing over you need to take care. It seemed like they were written to be read a certain way, and then they changed the chapter order around without changing the chapters. So structurally it remains a problem even if it's an intelligible one to most readers.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

[Suttree]

It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

 

Why on earth would you compare the last book/climax of the series to a point in the narrative arc where there was a planned slow down and story lines are still expanding? The pace sure as hell better pick up. That doesn't change the fact that there was a ton of bloat and filler at a time in which there should have been none.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Suttree

[Mr Ares]

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

[Finnssss22]

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

 

 

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined.

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

Literally no one has made that argument. It's like people should just start copy and pasting false equivalence ad infinitum.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

 

Why on earth would you compare the last book/climax of the series to a point in the narrative arc where there was a planned slow down and story lines are still expanding? The pace sure as hell better pick up. That doesn't change the fact that there was a ton of bloat and filler at a time in which there should have been none.

 

 

It did pick up. So what are you complaining about? The 'ton of bloat and filler'? Clearly you are exaggerating. You say bloat and filler, but provide no examples. Please explain yourself.

[Suttree]

You say bloat and filler, but provide no examples.

Yeah I mean all those Gawyn scenes were totally necessary, someone should have brought that up...oh wait.

 

Go back and read the quotes provided or go back and read through the old quality thread. It's been discussed in great detail.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Suttree

[Sabio]

Almost every scene involving Gawyn was unnecessary. 

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

You say bloat and filler, but provide no examples.

Yeah I mean all those Gawyn scenes were totally necessary, someone should have brought that up...oh wait.

 

Go back and read the quotes provided or go back and read through the old quality thread. It's been discussed in great detail.

 

 

'Those scenes with Gawyn'.... Which scenes and how were they unnecessary?

 

Sorry if I don't feel like reading a different thread right now. :P 

[Mr Ares]

 

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

 

 

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

 

The pacing problems of the middle books and the pacing problems of the last books are different problems. They are not dependant on one another, they do not excuse one another, regardless of which is worse. CoT might be worse than AMoL, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with AMoL. And it doesn't mean you can shut down discussion of the problems with AMoL just by pointing to CoT. I'm not saying the pacing of the end was a problem compared to the middle. I'm saying the pacing of the end was a problem, regardless of the pacing in the middle.

 

[Removed]

Edited December 5, 2014 by Barid Bel Medar
reply to removed quote

[Sabio]

What was this topic about again?

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

 

 

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

 

The pacing problems of the middle books and the pacing problems of the last books are different problems. They are not dependant on one another, they do not excuse one another, regardless of which is worse. CoT might be worse than AMoL, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with AMoL. And it doesn't mean you can shut down discussion of the problems with AMoL just by pointing to CoT. I'm not saying the pacing of the end was a problem compared to the middle. I'm saying the pacing of the end was a problem, regardless of the pacing in the middle.

 

 

 

 

[Removed}

 

Why did you think that the pacing was a problem? Did you get bored? I did not have a problem with the pace because I was NOT bored. Maybe that says more about me than the book. 

 

The reason I made the comparison to the middle was that I thought that people were acting like RJ never had any problems with pace and in doing so, were treating Mr. Sanderson unfairly. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Barid Bel Medar
removed preveviously removed quotes

[Suttree]

The reason I made the comparison to the middle was that I thought that people were acting like RJ never had any problems with pace and in doing so, were treating Mr. Sanderson unfairly. 

 

People have explicitly made clear that isn't the case throughout this thread.  On the flip you've offered nothing other in return aside from "it didn't bother me" which isn't exactly a compelling argument.

 

Regardless pace etc. can be discussed in the "quality thread", as Sabio noted we've gone rather far afield.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Suttree
unnecessary, getting back on topic without the rest of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry, back from LoA. 

 

Anyway, Sabio is correct, it seems that this thread has gone out of control. 

 

I'm not interested in who did what, plenty of tit-for-tat going on by everyone. I was away, and things developed before I could intervene. So I will leave it at that and not pursue it further. 

 

One last chance to get back on topic and stop with the personal remarks, or the thread will be locked and appropriate action may be taken. 

[TheGOAT]

This is going to be a massively unpopular opinion but I would absolutely love if they wrote more spin offs, I would love a rand spin off now he has those awesome creatorish powers and a Matt spin off, even Perrin and faile, I could fully see tenobia giving her the saldean throne.

As for Egwene I have a theory, she is a dreamer so I believe she will exist in the world of dreams, probably as a hero of the horn like Birgitte because let’s face it Egwene accomplished more in her few years as an aes sedai than anyone in the age of legends. For one thing she discovered a lot of their lost talents, not to mention the things she accomplished like becoming a dreamer, fitting off the seanchan and defeating the forsaken left right and centre, and if Birgitte can be reborn or pulled out because of her archery then why can’t Egwene ;) so many unanswered questions.

I think as long as readers accepted that it was going to be different to Jordan’s style and it may not be the same, far from it then it wouldn’t be a problem.

I understand Jordan’s feelings of not wanting anyone to contaminate his world but that is just unrealistic, there will always be people who write spin offs for this series regardless even if they are not official, and from my point of view the series stands to be contaminated more by that than anything, to assume otherwise is naive. if they gave permission for a spin off series and made it official at least they would have some measure of control over it.

[Harldin]

3 hours ago, TheGOAT said:

 

I think as long as readers accepted that it was going to be different to Jordan’s style and it may not be the same, far from it then it wouldn’t be a problem.

I understand Jordan’s feelings of not wanting anyone to contaminate his world but that is just unrealistic, there will always be people who write spin offs for this series regardless even if they are not official, and from my point of view the series stands to be contaminated more by that than anything, to assume otherwise is naive. if they gave permission for a spin off series and made it official at least they would have some measure of control over it.

Well why hasn’t it happened already? why aren’t we seeing unauthorised GOT or LOTR or Cosmere spinoffs? I suspect they are simply to well protected legally for anyone to even try and no Publishing House would touch it with a 10ft Barge Pole.

[Thrasymachus]

They have control over it now.  Licensing authors to write spin-offs doesn't give them any greater control over the canon, it makes controlling the canon that much harder, to make sure the new author doesn't contradict the original author.  Fan-fiction is always going to exist, and there's a metric fuckton of WoT fan-fiction already.  But fan-fiction doesn't affect the canon.

 

As for why Harriet doesn't want to cash in and create a WoT Expanded Universe, I suspect it comes down to two things.  First, she's already financially comfortable, so there's no real need to cash in.  Second, expanding the universe to fill in the gaps, answering questions like "what happens after the Last Battle?" or, "How was channelling discovered in the First Age and how did that lead to the Age of Legends?" or, "How is channelling ultimately lost?" all misunderstands the draw of the world-building Jordan had accomplished.  His world-building is not like Tolkien's or Roddenberry's, where there's an elaborate effort to make a full and coherent universe, with a canonical explanation for everything that happens or could happen.  Jordan's world-building is vague and mysterious, with blatant gaps and apparent contradictions and even, if considered carefully, conceptual impossibilities.  The concepts that undergird his world are vague, metaphorical and more like riddles than answers.  This invites the reader into a different kind of wonder at his world, one full of speculation and diverging points of view, that would be dispelled if actual answers to those questions were provided.  "How did Rand light his pipe at the end of MoL," and "Who is Nakomi," are the epitome of the kinds of questions WoT leaves us with, and refuses to answer.  That refusal is important to capturing the reader's imagination.  Actually answering those questions in future spin-offs would deflate that invitation, dispell the compelling mystery, and keep readers from returning to the originals in the hopes of finding some hidden clue, some subtle foreshadowing, that would work to either support or defeat some fan-theory or head-canon.  Just wait for the next licensed sequel or spin-off.  At least until you get an answer you don't like.  And then you'll move on.