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Matt spin off


H1ammer24
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So not sure if this has come up anywhere else, but does anyone think that there could be a matt/tuon spin off.  I remember reading that there wasn't any notes for BS to continue the WOT(moors the pity of course), but what about going back to Tuons home land and work that angle and new prophecies and battles and intrigue?

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BS has his own career and I think he got more than enough grief for aMol, even though some of it belongs to RJ for overextending certain plotlines at the expense of others.

 

None of the above has a single thing to do with why the Outriggers are not being made. The fact is there was no source material and RJ was extremely uncomfortable with other authors writing in his world. It wasn't until the very end that he even allowed the main series to be finished. Based on that Harriet made the decision to not allow anything else to be written and it's the correct call. The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.

 

As for any "grief" critical analysis(is there a single author anywhere that would expect to put a work out and not have it be judged on merit?) BS received in regards to his work, that is more than offset by the massive sales boost and career momentum he received from working on the series. Tor planned it almost perfectly n setting him up to be there next star. Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax. It's a pretty feeble excuse and once again has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Edited by Suttree
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Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

As for the thread topic, one sentence just isn't enough for a whole book to spring out of. I, for one, loved the last three books of the series and thought them a fitting conclusion, even if I have some criticisms about a lack of utilization where Perrin is concerned. But even if there were fairly fleshed out plans for outrigger novels, I would support the wished of our beloved RJ and if he doesn't want other people playing in his sandbox, that is his business.

 

Though I do agree with Suttree on one point. Shared world/universes written by many authors do have quality issues. Ex: Star Wars. 

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First I thought the last 3 books fit the series as best as possible.  In my own world I wish the ending was a little more concrete, I never like seeing an ending that is so open as Rands and his 3 ladies nor the adventures Matt and Tuon will have.  I know people have a hard time accepting other writers to write in the worlds they love so much but there are so many good writers out there, that someone would do a great job describing the world Matt would find himself in trying to reclaim is errr Tuon's throne.  Just as long as its not GRRM, everyone we like would die.

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Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

Of course it's an opinion, but regardless of that, one can objectively point out a number of  quality issues in the last three books such as timeline errors and the numerous mistakes. More so the breaking of the the third wall and unpolished prose(TJ literally changed BS's writing process and asked for more time to deal with the quality problem) are fairly easy to identify. In terms of Mat himself we have BS admitting how badly he botched the character.

 

I mean you do understand literary analysis is not entirely subjective yes? I guess the proper question would but what exactly do you object to in my statement? I can provide concrete examples for each.

Edited by Suttree
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but what about going back to Tuons home land and work that angle and new prophecies and battles and intrigue?

the main series told in the perspective of the Seanchan continent?

Robert Jordan told that there would be no more on screen scenes than Rand's & Aviendha's visit there.

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So I understand how people are protective of the series against other writers but there are a lot of good writers out there and despite what people think I liked hoe BS finished the series. But I think that there is a lot of material in the Matt-Tuon direction. It's almost a new series but has enough tie in it the wot works.

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Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

As for the thread topic, one sentence just isn't enough for a whole book to spring out of. I, for one, loved the last three books of the series and thought them a fitting conclusion, even if I have some criticisms about a lack of utilization where Perrin is concerned. But even if there were fairly fleshed out plans for outrigger novels, I would support the wished of our beloved RJ and if he doesn't want other people playing in his sandbox, that is his business.

 

Though I do agree with Suttree on one point. Shared world/universes written by many authors do have quality issues. Ex: Star Wars. 

This is probably the best solution.  After all, the fans know that the outriggers were planned, and we can enjoy thinking to ourselves what adventures Mat and Tuon, Perrin and Faile would have, as well as cobble the bits and pieces together about Tam's adventures when he left the Two Rivers to entertain ourselves with when we think fondly back on the series.  Having it actually written will rob us of our own versions of possibility.  

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BS pretty much said in the River of Souls prologue that it was the last WOT story.  RJ simply didn't leave enough to work with even BS and Harriet wanted to write about it.  From some of the things BS has said it didn't sound like even had RJ left enough to consider writing the series that he was really interested in starting another WOT project.

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.

I assumed that Tuon telling Mat that: she was expecting at the end of aMoL was just RJ's way of confirming that there would be NO spin offs, or no more adventures for the couple, as we saw with the plot device of Faile being childless for MORE than a year of being with Perrin. And you know that he must of been trying like a dickens to get her pregnant, so she would stay at home away from danger to raise their children.

 

Which now makes me wonder......

 

Did the wrong wife somehow mistakenly end up written as being with child?  Hmm.....

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Don't see how her having  child would be RJ's way of saying no spinoff.  The Mat/Tuon series was going to be about retaking their homeland.  So  it easily could of been 5/10/15 years in the future.  After the last battle the Seachean (even though I felt they were made too powerful) aren't in any condition to launch a quick invasion off their homeland for awhile anyway.  Even though with the new technology they have such as gateways you would think they would have a great advantage over their foes bacj home.

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BS pretty much said in the River of Souls prologue that it was the last WOT story.  RJ simply didn't leave enough to work with even BS and Harriet wanted to write about it.  From some of the things BS has said it didn't sound like even had RJ left enough to consider writing the series that he was really interested in starting another WOT project.

There were contracts in place both for his Seanchan/shipwrecked sailor/shogun series, encyclopedia, and one or two others which were all renegotiated into the contract for the upcoming companion so as not to financially ruin Harriet.  Contracts worth more than their house iirc that were not yet fulfilled but had been paid out.  Being a writer with no other income except maybe a stipend from his Vietnam service...bills are bad enough, so add in all the medical bills...he had a lot of promised works forthcoming.  The ideas were there, enough bones to flesh out for someone wanting the project.  BS had his minor career launched and has his own books to write.  This is where a ghost writer would have come in handy should the decision have been made to do the outriggers and prequels. 

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This is where a ghost writer would have come in handy should the decision have been made to do the outriggers and prequels.

 

There is not even remotely enough material for a ghost writer to write those books. Heck, there wasn't even enough material for a ghost writer to finish the main series.

 

o it was also daunting in that, yes there are two hundred pages written, which actually nice, because as I've said before, if the book had been 80% of the way done, they wouldn't have needed to hire me, they wouldn't have needed to bring me in. When a book is 80% of the way done, that's when you get a ghostwriter, or Harriet just does it herself. She really could have done it in-house herself and finished that and said "Look, here we're going to do a few patches and stuff, but the book is mostly done."

When I was handed this project by Harriet [Harriet McDougal, Robert Jordan's wife and editor], she handed it to me as a collaborator, not as a ghost writer. It's not like building a shelf from Ikea, which is good, because otherwise my creativity wouldn't have been engaged. She handed me full creative control for the first draft, and then we went into the editing phase where we really worked on it to make sure that it fit her vision and Robert Jordan's vision for the series. But going into it, nothing was off-limits. So I wrote them like I write any novel. Nothing is taken for granted, nothing is sacrosanct.

I do think I've been able to do some fun things with the series, as a fan, that I've been wanting to do, from reading it since I was a kid, but that's actually a weird things because, as a fan coming on, I had to be careful. You don't always want to do what the inner fan wants you to do; otherwise it just becomes like a sequence of cameos and inside jokes. So I had to be very careful, but there are some things that I've been wanting to have happen, and the notes left a lot of room for me to explore. I did get to have a lot of creative involvement in it; it wasn't just an outline, which has been awesome. You know, if it had been mostly done, they would have been able to hire like a ghostwriter to clean it up, and they didn't have that. They needed an actual writer, and so there are lots of plots I got to construct, and as a fan, that's awesome.

 

Brandon created a significant part of the story from scratch with zero guidance from the notes.

Edited by Suttree
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  • 2 weeks later...

There might be a sentence and some hints in the notes but it is fairly obvious as to what will happen.  Mat and Tuon return to Seanchan.  Probably they travel there with their Deathwatch Guards and a huge army gathered from their holdings with just enough crack Seanchan troops to stiffen them up, done in this way much as Alexander the Great did so that soldiers returning to Seanchan with hidden loyalties won't be so much of a factor.  And we can't forget the masses of Wise Ones paired with Suldam and voila, you have a massive force that can take the Crystal throne and the Imperial Palace easier than sneezing, the entire city of Seandar without much effort.  The people rejoice that Tuon is alive, others send assassins.  Galgon gains more respect for Mat, maybe even gives his life saving him from an assassin as not everyone among the Blood is happy to have the Empress home with an Heir and a Prince of the Ravens.  The immersion into the Seanchan culture, the new cities and lands to explore, people and places, the red-sail ships, the murderer that rules in Seandar, an explanation on the source of the Bloodring Ter'angreal would be fun for a writer to explore, there are tidbits scattered all over the books.  

 

Just because there is one sentence detailing Mat dicing in an alley as the actual start to the book...well, RJ liked to use the term "intuitively obvious" and there are many things that obviously would be in the book.  The problem is, you are looking at someone needing to take a map of Seanchan and the few pages of remarks made by the Seanchan characters and produce over 95% of the new characters and storyline.  It is too big a project, which would require too much of Harriett and Team Jordan's time, and probably is nowhere near financially feasible as everyone needs to get paid and the book might only draw a small numbers of fresh readers into the series and some from the fanbase who haven't cut all ties in regards to new material.

 

it is fun to think about and to ponder, but that is about all that is going to happen, unless the tangled mass of kinks get worked out and the movie(s) gets done which will kickstart a fresh infusion into the fanbase, and then a demand for new and fresh material will require some reevaluation on the unwritten prequels and outriggers.  I would have loads of respect for Harriett at that point if she still declined if it was ever an option again.  I would just be happy with the WOT getting the attention it finally deserves from the mass media. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The problem is Mat became something less. He went from a rogue to a court jester prancing around in motley. Combine that with the various mistakes, Brandon's cringe worthy dialogue/attempt at jokes and per his own admission it didn't turn out well.

Edited by Suttree
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I do not recall Mat becoming a court jester or he being dressed in motley.

What were the exact words of Sanderson's admission?

 

 

Am I the only one who liked how Brandon Sanderson wrote Mat? He had some of the funniest lines in the entire series. 

I also liked Mat in the Sanderson books.

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I do not recall Mat becoming a court jester or he being dressed in motley.

:biggrin:

 

mb you crack me up mate.

 

What were the exact words of Sanderson's admission?

 It's been quoted numerous times but once again:

 

However, in going back to Mr. Jordan's writing and delving into it, I realized I'd missed large parts of what made Mat into Mat—the tension between what he says and does, the constant little quips in narrative (which tend to be more clever than the actual things he says out loud), the complaining that isn't really complaining. I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

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@jak

 

Forgot about this from earlier in thread. Care to add your thoughts?

 

Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

Of course it's an opinion, but regardless of that, one can objectively point out a number of  quality issues in the last three books such as timeline errors and the numerous mistakes. More so the breaking of the the third wall and unpolished prose(TJ literally changed BS's writing process and asked for more time to deal with the quality problem) are fairly easy to identify. The bloat is also easy to identify. In terms of Mat himself we have BS admitting how badly he botched the character.

 

I mean you do understand literary analysis is not entirely subjective yes? I guess the proper question would bbe what exactly do you object to in my statement? I can provide concrete examples for each.

Edited by Suttree
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I do not recall Mat becoming a court jester or he being dressed in motley.

:biggrin:

 

mb you crack me up mate.

 

What were the exact words of Sanderson's admission?

 It's been quoted numerous times but once again:

 

However, in going back to Mr. Jordan's writing and delving into it, I realized I'd missed large parts of what made Mat into Mat—the tension between what he says and does, the constant little quips in narrative (which tend to be more clever than the actual things he says out loud), the complaining that isn't really complaining. I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

 

In my first sentence of the post, I was speaking about the literal sense.

"different" seems more accurate than "less".  some might consider a court jester higher ranking than a rogue.

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