Matt spin off

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I do not recall Mat becoming a court jester or he being dressed in motley.

 

mb you crack me up mate.

 

What were the exact words of Sanderson's admission?

 It's been quoted numerous times but once again:

 

However, in going back to Mr. Jordan's writing and delving into it, I realized I'd missed large parts of what made Mat into Mat—the tension between what he says and does, the constant little quips in narrative (which tend to be more clever than the actual things he says out loud), the complaining that isn't really complaining. I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

 

In my first sentence of the post, I was speaking about the literal sense.

No-one else was.

[WWWwombat]

Yeah, BS just didn't get Mat.  I also didn't like how daft and un-Aiel Aviendha seemed when he wrote her.  In Brandon's defense, though, I think he got much better at writing Mat by AMoL.  Regardless, there is no question that Harriet made the right decision wrt the outriggers.  It is what RJ would have wanted.

[WWWwombat]

 

No-one else was.

 

 

Story of mb's life?  <3 mb.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

The problem is Mat became something less. He went from a rogue to a court jester prancing around in motley. Combine that with the various mistakes, Brandon's cringe worthy dialogue/attempt at jokes and per his own admission it didn't turn out well.

 

I disagree, not only with you, but with Brandon Sanderson about his own writing. We are our own harshest critics. It is interesting to see that this is still the case in an established and relatively successful author.

 

 

@jak

 

Forgot about this from earlier in thread. Care to add your thoughts?

 

Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

Of course it's an opinion, but regardless of that, one can objectively point out a number of  quality issues in the last three books such as timeline errors and the numerous mistakes. More so the breaking of the the third wall and unpolished prose(TJ literally changed BS's writing process and asked for more time to deal with the quality problem) are fairly easy to identify. The bloat is also easy to identify. In terms of Mat himself we have BS admitting how badly he botched the character.

 

I mean you do understand literary analysis is not entirely subjective yes? I guess the proper question would bbe what exactly do you object to in my statement? I can provide concrete examples for each.

 

I thought Barid was shutting down the back and forth on Mr. Sanderson so I wasn't sure whether to continue. 

 

As for literary criticism... I agree. It is not ENTIRELY subjective. I know Brandon's writing wasn't perfect, but the fact is I enjoyed the last three books tremendously. You may have Brandon admitting that he botched something but that doesn't make him right. I don't remember anyone breaking the third wall, nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

[mb]

to wombat (post #28)::

I generally do speak/type about literal sense; regardless of the topic.

 

 

to no-one in particular:

the title of this thread is somewhat confusing.  spin-off to me implies that it would take place roughly around the same time of the main series.

[WWWwombat]

I know you do, mb :)

[Suttree]

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

Edited November 16, 2014 by Suttree

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

[Finnssss22]

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

[Ewin]

I was fine with how Sanderson portrayed Mat. I had more of a problem with his portrayal of Perrin. He came across as gruff/no-nonsense/let's just get the job done, when I thought he was the most sensitive and philosophical of the Rand/Mat/Perrin triad. I don't think the Perrin of the Sanderson books would have asked Moiraine her thoughts on good and evil as he did in The Dragon Reborn.

[mb]

Chapter 33?

It seems to me that Perrin was complaining about the Pattern and that Moiraine corrected him.

[Cosmic Champion]

I was fine with how Sanderson portrayed Mat. I had more of a problem with his portrayal of Perrin. He came across as gruff/no-nonsense/let's just get the job done, when I thought he was the most sensitive and philosophical of the Rand/Mat/Perrin triad. I don't think the Perrin of the Sanderson books would have asked Moiraine her thoughts on good and evil as he did in The Dragon Reborn.

.

Same here too.

 

My issue with him was in ToM where his belief that he is all of a sudden a horrible leader went waaay overboard IMO.  I don't mind Perrin having to deal with a little self doubt, but it became a bit absurd with this awful line: "It's my fault Gill and the others were captured, Faile," he said "My failures continue to mount. It's a wonder anyone continues to follow me."  Ugh!   That was the ONLY time in the whole series that I rolled my eyes and reached for an airsick bag.

 

As for Mat, I do see where he had some difficulty in writing him, but I was able to pretty much accept it and move along, as Perrin's storyline was my major focus then. When I reach this part of Mat's story in my reread, I will see how I feel about it then.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Cosmic Champion

[jack of shadows]

@ewin,

i thought it was the other way around,in my opinion,brandon sanderson portrayed

perrin even better than robert jordan.

one of the main differences between robert jordan's mat and brandon sanderson's mat

is their different sense of humor.

robert jordan sense of humor(regarding mat) is mature and subtle,while brandon sanderson

sense of humor is infantile and crass,one transformed mat into a daredevil,the other into a clown.

just re-read the confrontation between rand and tuon,on one side we have the leader of forces of

light,on the other side the seanchan empress,both of them ready for a showdown,it could and shound

have been an epic clash,but no,we of course have mat,(literally)standing between these two and behaving like

a bad stand-up comedian,i am sorry to say this but his words and demeanor utterly ruined the scene.

Edited November 22, 2014 by jack of shadows

[Ewin]

@mb, Yes, Chapter 33, but my impression was that Perrin was confused about the Pattern, rather than complaining about it.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

 

I'm not sure how more books makes things appear harder for our heroes. Surely it's the content of the books that does that? Also, is there any particular reason why you don't think that VoG and the Last Battle should be in the same book? The split as it was created certain structural issues. Perrin's scene on Dragonmount, for example, is made redundant by us knowing the outcome. It doesn't change our understanding of what happened, it just lets us know someone was watching. The Two Tams confused a lot of people. That's just two examples off the top of my head. While TGS was well structured as a book, ToM and AMoL weren't.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

 

I'm not sure how more books makes things appear harder for our heroes. Surely it's the content of the books that does that? Also, is there any particular reason why you don't think that VoG and the Last Battle should be in the same book? The split as it was created certain structural issues. Perrin's scene on Dragonmount, for example, is made redundant by us knowing the outcome. It doesn't change our understanding of what happened, it just lets us know someone was watching. The Two Tams confused a lot of people. That's just two examples off the top of my head. While TGS was well structured as a book, ToM and AMoL weren't.

 

 

So they are being thwarted and played by the Shadow at every turn for 11 books and they somehow turn it around and finish it in one? Ridiculous. That would a ridiculously rushed ending. Also: Two Tams? 

 

Reason is that 1: the ending would have been too rushed and because it was in the same book as the last battle would have detracted from it. It was the climax of book 12 and if it was in AMoL then it wouldn't have gotten its due. 

 

 

[Suttree]

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'.

Except the decision came from Tor, not from the author and not based on what would have been best for the story heck even Brandon has called the timeline and structural issues a "casualty" of the split. He wanted to release one book split into two volumes.

 

It's been discussed a number of times before but just a few of the issues that came from this were detailed here.

 

The way Brandon split the material totally undermined what RJ had in mind, with the four main stories becoming dark and bugged down together, piling up to great effect on the reader, the Shadow advancing and the Light totally stuck, in the ropes. Perrin's story and Mat's story, told after the reader knew the "knot" was split open by Rand's epiphany lost much interest and purpose. The whole thing read as "they're making time before Merrilor". That Moiraine might be needed in relation to Rand's darkness stopped working as the red herring it was intended to be (to hide the fact Mat's not coming to Merrilor either, possibly). Aviendha's vision stopped making much sense... Having the epiphany happen in TGS was bad enough (ideally the book wouldn't have been split, but the next best thing to stay closer to the intended dramatic effect was to end it on the Seanchan attack and Rand vanishing from Tear...) , but Brandon made it worse by opening TOM with the announcement of Merrilor and in a month. Again that was done to match the timelines Brandon had desynchronized, and to leave room for pretty useless (and even detrimental) Egwene episodes.

 

RJ's midbook, prior to Merrilor was to pack one hell of a punch. The built up frustration lead to an explosion...The Shadow invaded the Borderlands, Rand vanished after nearly killing his father...Egwene, just released, paid for Rand's failure at Falme and got attacked by the Seanchan, Perrin was about to face a stupid trial and wouldn't be there for Rand (another red herring, but foreshadowed), Mat destroyed the gholam and left for Ghenji, the expedition made bleaker by Birgitte's last minute revelation she found no way out and died in there. Egwene reunited the Tower, destroyed the BA but Mesaana remained and would strike soon.Then the avalanche... Mat in Ghenji, Elayne rising to the Sun Throne, Rand's epiphany, Egwene defeating Mesaana, Perrin witnessing Rand and forging his Hammer, fought to save Galad and his Asha'man able to channel again left for Andor.

 

A few chapters earlier, we were heading for a wall, the Light finished as the LB started, and suddenly we landed in a wholly different book. Time had run out, Rand was fully aware of the Light's weakeness and determined to put an end to dithering. He left himself but a few days to fix what urgently needed fixing... starting by a visit to Egwene, then the Bordermen, a brief visit to AD...

 

But painted in his corner, Brandon needed Rand to give Egwene a whole month to do what she had the resources to do in a week. A mere week before he broke the seals. The month is another thing that ended up diluting the little that was left of the feeling of urgency and the drama. Rand feels pulled to the break the seals and move for SG and yet he goes and gives Egwene a month before Merrilor. That's a month of useless side events with Bloodknives and scenes that suddenly turned a side player RJ used sparingly into a main player (Gawyn, of course), a month of Tuon doing nothing, a month of Rand doing not much.

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

Indeed but I'm not sure why there is a need to bring up this false equivalence, which is why I specified in "climax" of the story. Personally I think RJ's slow down gamble failed and we have seen any number of talented authors(GRRM) get tripped up by that portion of a long series. Regardless the two are separate issues which is why it always comes across as somewhat baffling that you feel the need to fly in with the 'but RJ' angle every time it's brought up. Start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Suttree

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

 

I'm not sure how more books makes things appear harder for our heroes. Surely it's the content of the books that does that? Also, is there any particular reason why you don't think that VoG and the Last Battle should be in the same book? The split as it was created certain structural issues. Perrin's scene on Dragonmount, for example, is made redundant by us knowing the outcome. It doesn't change our understanding of what happened, it just lets us know someone was watching. The Two Tams confused a lot of people. That's just two examples off the top of my head. While TGS was well structured as a book, ToM and AMoL weren't.

 

 

So they are being thwarted and played by the Shadow at every turn for 11 books and they somehow turn it around and finish it in one? Ridiculous. That would a ridiculously rushed ending. Also: Two Tams? 

 

Reason is that 1: the ending would have been too rushed and because it was in the same book as the last battle would have detracted from it. It was the climax of book 12 and if it was in AMoL then it wouldn't have gotten its due. 

The Two Tams is the confusion caused by Tam being with Rand in TGS and then reappearing with Perrin in ToM - there have been quite a few posts here asking what was going on, and suspicions of some sort of Darkfriend plot before it was pointed out it was due to the timelines crossing over despite being out of sync (the ToM scenes are set before TGS). Even if most people did get it right, I'm not seeing any benefit to it that would outweigh the confusion it caused to others - it just comes across as bad structure.

 

Also, that's not really a defence of your point - regardless of the number of books, there are still the same number of plot points, and potentially the same number of words even, between VoG and TG. Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached? Even though the structure to support those books being separate just isn't there? Let's say, as an experiment, that you cut up the last three books and interspersed the chapters into order, then bound it all together as one book - would it be too rushed? Also, in a one book narrative, VoG would have still been significant as the turning point. You don't have to change one word of it to fit it into a one book finale. How does it detract from it? Many people here list moments other than climaxes as their favourites, so how would it not get its due?

[jack of shadows]

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'.

Except the decision came from Tor, not from the author and not based on what would have been best for the story heck even Brandon has called the timeline and structural issues a "casualty" of the split. He wanted to release one book split into two volumes.

 

It's been discussed a number of times before but just a few of the issues that came from this were detailed here.

 

The way Brandon split the material totally undermined what RJ had in mind, with the four main stories becoming dark and bugged down together, piling up to great effect on the reader, the Shadow advancing and the Light totally stuck, in the ropes. Perrin's story and Mat's story, told after the reader knew the "knot" was split open by Rand's epiphany lost much interest and purpose. The whole thing read as "they're making time before Merrilor". That Moiraine might be needed in relation to Rand's darkness stopped working as the red herring it was intended to be (to hide the fact Mat's not coming to Merrilor either, possibly). Aviendha's vision stopped making much sense... Having the epiphany happen in TGS was bad enough (ideally the book wouldn't have been split, but the next best thing to stay closer to the intended dramatic effect was to end it on the Seanchan attack and Rand vanishing from Tear...) , but Brandon made it worse by opening TOM with the announcement of Merrilor and in a month. Again that was done to match the timelines Brandon had desynchronized, and to leave room for pretty useless (and even detrimental) Egwene episodes.

 

RJ's midbook, prior to Merrilor was to pack one hell of a punch. The built up frustration lead to an explosion...The Shadow invaded the Borderlands, Rand vanished after nearly killing his father...Egwene, just released, paid for Rand's failure at Falme and got attacked by the Seanchan, Perrin was about to face a stupid trial and wouldn't be there for Rand (another red herring, but foreshadowed), Mat destroyed the gholam and left for Ghenji, the expedition made bleaker by Birgitte's last minute revelation she found no way out and died in there. Egwene reunited the Tower, destroyed the BA but Mesaana remained and would strike soon.Then the avalanche... Mat in Ghenji, Elayne rising to the Sun Throne, Rand's epiphany, Egwene defeating Mesaana, Perrin witnessing Rand and forging his Hammer, fought to save Galad and his Asha'man able to channel again left for Andor.

 

A few chapters earlier, we were heading for a wall, the Light finished as the LB started, and suddenly we landed in a wholly different book. Time had run out, Rand was fully aware of the Light's weakeness and determined to put an end to dithering. He left himself but a few days to fix what urgently needed fixing... starting by a visit to Egwene, then the Bordermen, a brief visit to AD...

 

But painted in his corner, Brandon needed Rand to give Egwene a whole month to do what she had the resources to do in a week. A mere week before he broke the seals. The month is another thing that ended up diluting the little that was left of the feeling of urgency and the drama. Rand feels pulled to the break the seals and move for SG and yet he goes and gives Egwene a month before Merrilor. That's a month of useless side events with Bloodknives and scenes that suddenly turned a side player RJ used sparingly into a main player (Gawyn, of course), a month of Tuon doing nothing, a month of Rand doing not much.

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

Indeed but I'm not sure why there is a need to bring up this false equivalence, which is why I specified in "climax" of the story. Personally I think RJ's slow down gamble failed and we have seen any number of talented authors(GRRM) get tripped up by that portion of a long series. Regardless the two are separate issues which is why it always comes across as somewhat baffling that you feel the need to fly in with the 'but RJ' angle every time it's brought up. Start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it.

 

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody. 

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?' 

 

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

[Cosmic Champion]

.

Being a huge Perrin fan I was also disappointed in his sparsity in AMoL. However, that seems to be due to Min's viewing of Rand & Perrin, which suggested that his main purpose was to be Rand's bodyguard, thus unfortunately limiting his activities in the concluding Final Battle.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Cosmic Champion

[Finnssss22]

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'.

Except the decision came from Tor, not from the author and not based on what would have been best for the story heck even Brandon has called the timeline and structural issues a "casualty" of the split. He wanted to release one book split into two volumes.

 

It's been discussed a number of times before but just a few of the issues that came from this were detailed here.

 

The way Brandon split the material totally undermined what RJ had in mind, with the four main stories becoming dark and bugged down together, piling up to great effect on the reader, the Shadow advancing and the Light totally stuck, in the ropes. Perrin's story and Mat's story, told after the reader knew the "knot" was split open by Rand's epiphany lost much interest and purpose. The whole thing read as "they're making time before Merrilor". That Moiraine might be needed in relation to Rand's darkness stopped working as the red herring it was intended to be (to hide the fact Mat's not coming to Merrilor either, possibly). Aviendha's vision stopped making much sense... Having the epiphany happen in TGS was bad enough (ideally the book wouldn't have been split, but the next best thing to stay closer to the intended dramatic effect was to end it on the Seanchan attack and Rand vanishing from Tear...) , but Brandon made it worse by opening TOM with the announcement of Merrilor and in a month. Again that was done to match the timelines Brandon had desynchronized, and to leave room for pretty useless (and even detrimental) Egwene episodes.

 

RJ's midbook, prior to Merrilor was to pack one hell of a punch. The built up frustration lead to an explosion...The Shadow invaded the Borderlands, Rand vanished after nearly killing his father...Egwene, just released, paid for Rand's failure at Falme and got attacked by the Seanchan, Perrin was about to face a stupid trial and wouldn't be there for Rand (another red herring, but foreshadowed), Mat destroyed the gholam and left for Ghenji, the expedition made bleaker by Birgitte's last minute revelation she found no way out and died in there. Egwene reunited the Tower, destroyed the BA but Mesaana remained and would strike soon.Then the avalanche... Mat in Ghenji, Elayne rising to the Sun Throne, Rand's epiphany, Egwene defeating Mesaana, Perrin witnessing Rand and forging his Hammer, fought to save Galad and his Asha'man able to channel again left for Andor.

 

A few chapters earlier, we were heading for a wall, the Light finished as the LB started, and suddenly we landed in a wholly different book. Time had run out, Rand was fully aware of the Light's weakeness and determined to put an end to dithering. He left himself but a few days to fix what urgently needed fixing... starting by a visit to Egwene, then the Bordermen, a brief visit to AD...

 

But painted in his corner, Brandon needed Rand to give Egwene a whole month to do what she had the resources to do in a week. A mere week before he broke the seals. The month is another thing that ended up diluting the little that was left of the feeling of urgency and the drama. Rand feels pulled to the break the seals and move for SG and yet he goes and gives Egwene a month before Merrilor. That's a month of useless side events with Bloodknives and scenes that suddenly turned a side player RJ used sparingly into a main player (Gawyn, of course), a month of Tuon doing nothing, a month of Rand doing not much.

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

Indeed but I'm not sure why there is a need to bring up this false equivalence, which is why I specified in "climax" of the story. Personally I think RJ's slow down gamble failed and we have seen any number of talented authors(GRRM) get tripped up by that portion of a long series. Regardless the two are separate issues which is why it always comes across as somewhat baffling that you feel the need to fly in with the 'but RJ' angle every time it's brought up. Start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it.

 

 

Because you apparently feel the need to bash BS at every turn (with Dom's words, not even your own) over something he only had limited control over, took 3 books to do what should have maybe been done in 2 very large books.

Meanwhile, RJ took 5 books to tell what should have taken 2 large books while having full control.  

[Suttree]

False equivalence.

 

Start a seperate thread if you wish. Happy to discuss the mid part of the series there. As for this lets stay on topic with pros/cons of a Mat spin off(for which the quality of Brandon's work is very much relevant.) As you well know I've discussed both topics in great detail and frequently source Dom, 13th depository, Theoryland etc. Anything that bolsters the case really. Interested to see your starting take on that section of RJ's work though. Cheers.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Suttree

[Sabio]

Sort of pointless as BS stated, there was simply not enough to even think about making the series.  But for the off topic stuff, I don't see BS work as being anymore bloated then RJ work was towards the end.  Both are guilty of it.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

False equivalence.

 

Start a seperate thread if you wish. Happy to discuss the mid part of the series there. As for this lets stay on topic with pros/cons of a Mat spin off(for which the quality of Brandon's work is very much relevant.) As you well know I've discussed both topics in great detail and frequently source Dom, 13th depository, Theoryland etc. Anything that bolsters the case really. Interested to see your starting take on that section of RJ's work though. Cheers.

 

I don't want a Matt spinoff, not because Brandon is bad or anything, but because RJ didn't leave any notes. If he had I would still be apprehensive, since RJ only grudgingly let someone finish the series. This would be outside of that and, therefore, outside of the RJ stamp of approval. His world, his rules.