Mat's memories

[damandred]

 

The personalities between Rands and LTT may have been different, but post VoG they had merged into one, with all memories and experiences belonging to the post VoG Rand as though they had happened to himself. Which in a way they had.

 

All true, in relation to "personalities" however that Rand quote about how great the difference is comes from ToM.

 

And? Not sure what your point is, Rand acknowledges LTT arrogance and how different he was from the shepherd, but after VoG the point becomes moot as he becomes a merger of the two and a separate personality evolves, though with the shepherd being the dominant part.

[Suttree]

And? Not sure what your point is, Rand acknowledges LTT arrogance and how different he was from the shepherd, but after VoG the point becomes moot as he becomes a merger of the two and a separate personality evolves, though with the shepherd being the dominant part.

 

My point is the personalities are not, and never were "essentially" the same.

[Finnssss22]

 

And? Not sure what your point is, Rand acknowledges LTT arrogance and how different he was from the shepherd, but after VoG the point becomes moot as he becomes a merger of the two and a separate personality evolves, though with the shepherd being the dominant part.

 

My point is the personalities are not, and never were "essentially" the same.

 

 

Much more so than with Mat though and that's really the point being made here.

[wotfan4472]

Both characters show memories for different reasons. I am actually that Rand's memories did not stretch past Lews Therin. But I am still happy.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

@mr ares,

point taken.

by the way,i didn't turn it into a memory contest,moiraine did!

in my opinion,the situation regarding rand's memories and longevity is

not even remotely similar to mat's,but that's just me,moiraine is entitled

to her own opinions of course.lol.

I don't see that big a difference between Mat's situation and Rand's. They both have the memories of other men in their heads, it's just Mat has memories from more people and they acquired them through different means. So Moiraine is quite right to point out Rand's error in thinking he is 400 years old - for all that they share a soul and some similarities, they are different men. I know Rand feels differently, but his position is just his opinion, something he had to believe in order to stop driving himself insane.

 

 

There's a big difference really.

Rand's memories of LTT are fluid, continual and have the emotional investment just like Birgette's memories of herself are. They are not looking through other people's eyes really, just through another version or versions of themselves. Their personalities while slightly different are still essentially the same.

With Mat there is more of them, no continuity, more fragmented, no where close to the same emotional investment as most of his memories are the end result without the emotional buildup. He is definitely looking through others eyes and not his own and their personalities could be and are far from his own.

 

Mat sees his memories as his own, and he has the emotional investment. The big difference is that Mat acquired naturally the integration that Rand didn't have, and struggled so hard to get.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

@mr ares,

point taken.

by the way,i didn't turn it into a memory contest,moiraine did!

in my opinion,the situation regarding rand's memories and longevity is

not even remotely similar to mat's,but that's just me,moiraine is entitled

to her own opinions of course.lol.

I don't see that big a difference between Mat's situation and Rand's. They both have the memories of other men in their heads, it's just Mat has memories from more people and they acquired them through different means. So Moiraine is quite right to point out Rand's error in thinking he is 400 years old - for all that they share a soul and some similarities, they are different men. I know Rand feels differently, but his position is just his opinion, something he had to believe in order to stop driving himself insane.

 

 

There's a big difference really.

Rand's memories of LTT are fluid, continual and have the emotional investment just like Birgette's memories of herself are. They are not looking through other people's eyes really, just through another version or versions of themselves. Their personalities while slightly different are still essentially the same.

With Mat there is more of them, no continuity, more fragmented, no where close to the same emotional investment as most of his memories are the end result without the emotional buildup. He is definitely looking through others eyes and not his own and their personalities could be and are far from his own.

 

Mat sees his memories as his own, and he has the emotional investment. The big difference is that Mat acquired naturally the integration that Rand didn't have, and struggled so hard to get.

 

 

Not really, Mat feels that they might as well be his own but there's still a separation. Unlike Rand, who feels he actually has lived his from start to finish and is actually LTT.

[Sabio]

I am sure that because Rand only has LTT in his head and Mat seems to have dozens of memories from different times and ages helps explains their views, but the big thing is Mat is was never those people, he just has the memories of them.  Rand is LTT reborn so there is more of a bond between LTT and Rand so Rand rightfully can think of himself as LTT and that he did those actions.  Since in some ways he did..  Mat was never those people, so he doesn't always consider those his deeds.  He just has the memories of various people stuffed in his head. 

[mb]

Actually, there might be some chance of some of the men being past incarnations of Mat's soul.  But not all, since the lives overlap.

 

And Mat did consider some of the deeds his.

on the top of my head::

-the writing of a song.  Lord of Chaos.

-reading and/or writing a book.  I think either Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams.

[Dagon Thyne]

Mat's memories are from all of the greatest generals and tacticians of all time.  Based on the idea that our world and time is supposed to be the 1st age, I wouldn't be surprised if he had memories from Alexander the Great, and other historical generals. 

[mb]

Some scene told that the earliest of the memories were the end of the Trolloc Wars and that the latest of the memories were Hawkwing's time.

[Finnssss22]

Some scene told that the earliest of the memories were the end of the Trolloc Wars and that the latest of the memories were Hawkwing's time.

 

Close but as I mentioned earlier, they're from long before the Trolloc Wars until the final battle of Hawkwing's rise and the scene in question is from LoC-5 "A Different Dance".

The very same place the second quote in my sig is from.

[Orderofolde]

 

And? Not sure what your point is, Rand acknowledges LTT arrogance and how different he was from the shepherd, but after VoG the point becomes moot as he becomes a merger of the two and a separate personality evolves, though with the shepherd being the dominant part.

 

My point is the personalities are not, and never were "essentially" the same.

 

Rand even mentions that as himself, not as LTT, he has a better chance in regards to having been raised better.

[Mr Ares]

I am sure that because Rand only has LTT in his head and Mat seems to have dozens of memories from different times and ages helps explains their views, but the big thing is Mat is was never those people, he just has the memories of them.  Rand is LTT reborn so there is more of a bond between LTT and Rand so Rand rightfully can think of himself as LTT and that he did those actions.  Since in some ways he did..  Mat was never those people, so he doesn't always consider those his deeds.  He just has the memories of various people stuffed in his head. 

And in another, more accurate way he didn't. They share a soul but that doesn't make them the same person. Rand might feel an ownership for LTT's actions that Mat doesn't feel for the actions of the guys in his head, but that's a matter of personal feeling, nothing more. They both remember another guy doing things, but Mat doesn't have a problem with it and Rand does until he is able to forge an accommodation with those memories, and then he acts as if he is the guy who did them just because he is the guy who remembers doing them. There's no reason to think that Rand is more right, or that their situations are fundamentally different in terms of who did these things and how long they have lived. Rand and LTT are not the same person, for all that Rand is willing to take ownership of LTT's memories and actions and call them his own.

 

Mat's memories are from all of the greatest generals and tacticians of all time.  Based on the idea that our world and time is supposed to be the 1st age, I wouldn't be surprised if he had memories from Alexander the Great, and other historical generals. 

No, Mat's memories are from guys who went to see the Finns. These are the sorts of people who tend to be the adventurous type, so probably have a higher than average chance of ending up in battles. He's not always the commander of a battle in his memories, he just sees ow the battle went and is able to extrapolate form that.

[Mr Ares]

.

[mb]

About personality, part of it the person was born with and part of it comes from the person's experiences/memories.

[damandred]

Of course Rand is the same person as LTT, that's the whole point of the series, that he IS the dragon reborn. To dismiss that just " because they share a soul" they are not the same person is wrong. While I understand while why Mr Ares made that comment, I have to say I don't agree, otherwise what's the point of him even being the dragon? Why does Lanfear still want him? And how can she recognize him no matter what face he wears? I am nothing like the way I was at ten does that mean my memories as a ten year old are not my own? Rand was reborn, but was still the same person as before at his core, the fact he couldn't remember and so developed a new personality is irrelevant, the whole premise of WoT is the idea of the same people being reborn again and again.

But I think Rand himself explains it best in Tom " I am both. Egwene. I remember him LTT. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. MY OWN DREAM. ITS A PART OF ME."

[Suttree]

Of course Rand is the same person as LTT, that's the whole point of the series, that he IS the dragon reborn. To dismiss that just " because they share a soul" they are not the same person is wrong. While I understand while why Mr Ares made that comment, I have to say I don't agree, otherwise what's the point of him even being the dragon? Why does Lanfear still want him? And how can she recognize him no matter what face he wears? I am nothing like the way I was at ten does that mean my memories as a ten year old are not my own? Rand was reborn, but was still the same person as before at his core, the fact he couldn't remember and so developed a new personality is irrelevant, the whole premise of WoT is the idea of the same people being reborn again and again.

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

[Finnssss22]

 

Of course Rand is the same person as LTT, that's the whole point of the series, that he IS the dragon reborn. To dismiss that just " because they share a soul" they are not the same person is wrong. While I understand while why Mr Ares made that comment, I have to say I don't agree, otherwise what's the point of him even being the dragon? Why does Lanfear still want him? And how can she recognize him no matter what face he wears? I am nothing like the way I was at ten does that mean my memories as a ten year old are not my own? Rand was reborn, but was still the same person as before at his core, the fact he couldn't remember and so developed a new personality is irrelevant, the whole premise of WoT is the idea of the same people being reborn again and again.

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

 

The problem though is no matter how many quotes you have from RJ or BS about them being different personalities, the underlying issue is that Rand actually believes he is LTT in many ways and even believes he lived LTT's life though he himself knows they're different.

Like is there any question what so ever that his "merge" with LTT changed Rand's personality? That his personality from the end of tGS was neither Rand's nor LTT's but a combo of both?

Mat does not believe he actually lived any of his other lives. They are separate to him, "other men's memories" and Mat's personality has not changed, he's still the very same guy jumping in the water at all costs to prevent a drowning, the same Mat that stole pie's and the same Mat that floured dogs. 

[Mr Ares]

 

 

Of course Rand is the same person as LTT, that's the whole point of the series, that he IS the dragon reborn. To dismiss that just " because they share a soul" they are not the same person is wrong. While I understand while why Mr Ares made that comment, I have to say I don't agree, otherwise what's the point of him even being the dragon? Why does Lanfear still want him? And how can she recognize him no matter what face he wears? I am nothing like the way I was at ten does that mean my memories as a ten year old are not my own? Rand was reborn, but was still the same person as before at his core, the fact he couldn't remember and so developed a new personality is irrelevant, the whole premise of WoT is the idea of the same people being reborn again and again.

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

 

The problem though is no matter how many quotes you have from RJ or BS about them being different personalities, the underlying issue is that Rand actually believes he is LTT in many ways and even believes he lived LTT's life though he himself knows they're different.

Like is there any question what so ever that his "merge" with LTT changed Rand's personality? That his personality from the end of tGS was neither Rand's nor LTT's but a combo of both?

Mat does not believe he actually lived any of his other lives. They are separate to him, "other men's memories" and Mat's personality has not changed, he's still the very same guy jumping in the water at all costs to prevent a drowning, the same Mat that stole pie's and the same Mat that floured dogs. 

 

Rand believes he is LTT, but that doesn't make it true. And Rand was being driven insane, while Mat wasn't. The fact that Rand's personality changed in ways Mat's didn't doesn't indicate that there is some fundamental difference in terms of personhood with regards to the memories, because they were different people, with other factors at work, and so the outcomes are different due to the differences between Rand and Mat to begin with and the differences in how they got their memories (insanity and a gift from the Finns), not because Rand really is LTT and Mat really isn't the guys in his memories. To make the argument that Rand=LTT work you basically have to accept without question that Rand is right in his assessment and toss away a lot of contradictory evidence. On the other hand, to make the Rand!=LTT argument work, all you need to do is assume that Rand is wrong in his assessment - which is not unreasonable, given that he is only human and thus capable of making mistakes.

[damandred]

 

Of course Rand is the same person as LTT, that's the whole point of the series, that he IS the dragon reborn. To dismiss that just " because they share a soul" they are not the same person is wrong. While I understand while why Mr Ares made that comment, I have to say I don't agree, otherwise what's the point of him even being the dragon? Why does Lanfear still want him? And how can she recognize him no matter what face he wears? I am nothing like the way I was at ten does that mean my memories as a ten year old are not my own? Rand was reborn, but was still the same person as before at his core, the fact he couldn't remember and so developed a new personality is irrelevant, the whole premise of WoT is the idea of the same people being reborn again and again.

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

The difference being no one else in the history of randland (except birgitte) remembers their old lives.

[Suttree]

In your last post you said in the WoT the same people are reborn over and over again. When provided with a quote that directly contradicts that, you the move the goal posts to no one in the history of Randland has had access to past memories(a dubious claim given cyclical time).

 

Interesting that you bring up Birgitte as well. She was of the opinion that she didn't deserve those memories as they were not her own. What might be helpful is for you to define what makes a person. Your original stance seemed to be the soul is all of personhood in totality. Now you seem to have added memories as well. What of the body, what of the personality? Does that not enter in to the totality of a person?

[damandred]

In your last post you said in the WoT the same people are reborn over and over again. When provided with a quote that directly contradicts that, you the move the goal posts to no one in the history of Randland has had access to past memories(a dubious claim given cyclical time).

 

Interesting that you bring up Birgitte as well. She was of the opinion that she didn't deserve those memories as they were not her own. What might be helpful is for you to define what makes a person. Your original stance seemed to be the soul is all of personhood in totality. Now you seem to have added memories as well. What of the body, what of the personality? Does that not enter in to the totality of a person?

Moving the goal posts ? Well maybe a little, but the point remains, it is not just a casual reference in WoT that people are reborn, it is pretty much rammed down the readers throat, especially when it comes to Rand. I understand RJ' point it would be cold comfort for me to no that my soul was going to be reborn but without the memories that make me, me. But of course its more than that, why else belabour the point he is who he is if not? I think it has to do with a persons basic nature. Is Mat always a prankster ? I think so, though thats just a personal belief i cant prove it.

You ask me to tell you what i think constitutes a person, well what more than his memories and soul, he even has his cares, loves and desires. Even in the midst of madness he laments Ilyena , grieved Demandred' turning, he still desired lanfear untill his last meeting with her. I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

[Suttree]

 I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

 

That's not how the burden of proof works. It's your claim, so make the case.

 

To be clear I'm of the opinion that there is more to a person than the soul and memories for that matter. I also have word of god on my side in relation to personalities and that in each rebirth "while bearing the same soul they will not be the same person".

[Finnssss22]

 

 I think rather you and Mr Ares should be the ones to lay down what does NOT constitute a person and why Rand is not LTT despite him having all his memories, cares and very soul.

 

That's not how the burden of proof works. It's your claim, so make the case.

 

To be clear I'm of the opinion that there is more to a person than the soul and memories for that matter. I also have word of god on my side in relation to personalities and that in each rebirth "while bearing the same soul they will not be the same person".

 

 

Except we're not really arguing about that, we are arguing the difference between Mat and Rand.

 

Fact: Rand's memories changed his personality to something other than just Rand or just LTT, he is now a combo of both.

Fact: Mat's memories didn't change his personality at all.

[Sabio]

Again the biggest difference as to why Rand thinks LTT = Rand at times and Mat considers his head full of other men's memories is Mat knows that's not him doing those things stuffed in his head so there is no attachment to them. Where Rand knows LTT did those deeds and he is LTT reborn.  So I don't really consider Rand right or wrong since if you feel a reborn soul is the same person and since its the same person you did those deeds or if one feels each rebirth is basically a new person and new life.  Most people this never comes into play since few people remember past lives and those who do semirhage hinted at usually go insane.