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Mat's memories


Drewcif
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1) from my point of view it seemed Mr Ares was making a case that Rands situation wasnt unique, but thats not really important.

 

As for the rest there are as many quotes as the ones you provided (Barid Bel) where Rand thought of LTT as himself, from Rands PoV in aMoL thinking on Demandred "I'm to blame for that , too, Rand thought. If i'd offered a hand instead of a smirk, if i'd congratulated instead of competed. If I'D been the man then that I AM now" and not to mention the Rand Sedai moment with cads, but this part is telling not long afterwards in ToM with min "LTT was mad" "At the end" Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate."

He goes on to say he was raised better.

 

As we can see some times he refers to LTT as a different person others as himself, obviously he was a different person physically, as regarding biological childred from his body so in that sense yes hes a different person but i still think it valid for him to think of LTT as himself.

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1) to take the word USUALLY as some kind of evidence that transformations like Rand' have occurred before is very thin. Ok though if we are going to be pendantic about wording , she says voices instead of memories, i suppose its possible to hear voices of past lives without the memories, and if so what did she mean by "reintegration" ? And were the people Graendal helped even effected by the taint? They couldnt of of been in the AoL as there was no taint, and it doesn't seem likely that she found any effected by the taint in the exact same way as Rand in the short time she was free in the third age and cured them, never mind several as the quote seems to suggest.

No i think using that one one sentance as proof that the Rand/LTT merger is not unique makes for a very weak argument.

I asked for your evidence. You have none. "Usually" might be thin, but thin evidence is better than none. As for the taint, it's not really important. It causes madness, but the forms of madness it causes are possible without the taint.

 

2) so Mat has the memories of the men who entered the finnrealm, since they left to the day they died? Do you have any proof of that claim? I am aware that Mat thinks that the finns are in his head, but does he get all of the other mens or just fragments? I know the memories he received were given to him to fill in the blanks in his memory after his sickness, so how many years in total is that? 2? 4? 10? Its a lot less than 400 regardless of how much was forgotten in that time. And Rand' memories came from his soul, which must have retained LTTS memories, though it was the taint that made it possible to remember them, his soul was LTT and after VoG he could access them fully, so i dont know where the fragment comes from.

You've been claiming for a while that Mat's memories are fragments, how about you support that first?

 

3) objective truth of it? One RJ quote that is pre VoG? I can understand having a different opinion, but i hardly think the evidence supplied can be counted as truth. I think in a subject like this there is no one "objective truth" and is more about opinions and i think Rands is more valid than yours.

Rand's opinion is, as Barid shows, not as clear cut as you're trying to make out. And Word of God is from a higher source, so he can contradict the characters - he defines the mechanics of the world, the characters make educated guesses. You've also not shown that VoG is a game-changer in this respect.

 

1) from my point of view it seemed Mr Ares was making a case that Rands situation wasnt unique, but thats not really important.

 

As for the rest there are as many quotes as the ones you provided (Barid Bel) where Rand thought of LTT as himself, from Rands PoV in aMoL thinking on Demandred "I'm to blame for that , too, Rand thought. If i'd offered a hand instead of a smirk, if i'd congratulated instead of competed. If I'D been the man then that I AM now" and not to mention the Rand Sedai moment with cads, but this part is telling not long afterwards in ToM with min "LTT was mad" "At the end" Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate."

He goes on to say he was raised better.

 

As we can see some times he refers to LTT as a different person others as himself, obviously he was a different person physically, as regarding biological childred from his body so in that sense yes hes a different person but i still think it valid for him to think of LTT as himself.

I think it's a little thin to rely on Rand not making the distinction between himself and LTT every single time. The quotes Barid provided show that he does make that distinction, between himself (Rand) and himself-yet-not-actually-himself (LTT). Combine that opinion with RJ's quotes, plus anything else, it's just more and more compelling - all the evidence indicates that they are not one and the same.

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You've been claiming for a while that Mat's memories are fragments, how about you support that first?

 

Let me help him out there.

 

 

Mat's bargain:

 

I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer—!”

Done,” one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.

Done? What was done? What did he mean?

 

 

Why would he get more then he bargained for? He bargained for sections that were lost to be filled up. He get's the fragments he misses in his own memory filled up with bits and pieces of others.

We see further proof of this in KOD from Mat himself:

 

 

"What is this place, Toy?" she said, frowning at the trees. "Or should 1 say, what was it? Do you know?"

What did she mean, what was this place? It was a bloody forest was what it was. But suddenly what had seemed a large boulder right in front of him, nearly obscured by thick vines, resolved into a huge stone head, slightly tilted to one side. A woman's head, he thought; those smooth roundels were probably meant for jewels in her hair. The statue it sat on must have been immense. A full span of the thing showed, yet only her eyes and the top of her head were out of the ground. And that long white stone outcrop with an oak tree's roots growing over it was piece of a spiral column. All around them now he could make out bits of columns and large worked stones that plainly had been part of some grand structure and what had to be a stone sword two spans long, all half buried. Still, ruins of cities and monuments could be found in many places, and few even among Aes Sedai had any idea what they had been. Opening his mouth to say that he did not know, he caught sight through the trees of three tall hills in a row, perhaps another mile on. The middle hill had a cleft top, like a wedge cut cleanly out, while the hill on the'left had two. And he knew. There could hardly be three hills exactly like that anywhere else.

Those hills had been called The Dancers when this place had been Londaren Cor, the capital city of Eharon. The road behind them had been paved then and ran through the heart of the city, which had sprawled for miles. People had said that the artistry in stone that the Ogier had practiced in Tar Valon. they had perfected in Londaren Cor. Of course, the people of every Ogier-built city had claimed their own outdid Tar Valon, confirming Tar Valon as the touchstone. He had a number of memories of the city—dancing at a ball in the Palace of the Moon, carousing in soldiers' taverns where veiled dancers writhed, watching the Procession of Flutes during the Blessing of the Swords—but oddly, he had another memory of those hills, from near enough five hundred years after the Trollocs left no stone standing in Londaren Cor and Eharon died in blood and fire. Why it had been necessary for Nerevan and Esandara to invade Shiota, as the land was then, he did not know. Those old memories were fragments however long a time any one covered, and full of gaps. He had no idea why those hills had been called The Dancers, either, or what the Blessing of the Swords was. But he remembered being an Esandaran lord in a battle fought among these ruins, and he remembered having those hills in view when he took an arrow through his throat. He must have fallen no more than half a mile from the very spot where he sat Pips, drowning in his own blood.

Light. I hate to remember dying, he thought, and the thought turned to a coal burning in his brain. A coal that burned hotter and hotter.

He remembered those men's deaths, not just one but dozens of them. He—remembered—dying.

 

.../ /...

 

Maybe they created some sort of link to any human who visited them, a link that allowed them to copy all of a man's memories after that right up to the moment he died. In some of those memories from other men he was white-haired, in some only a few years older than he really was, and everything in between, but there were none of childhood or growing up. What were the odds of that, if they had just stuffed him with random bits and pieces, likely things they considered rubbish or had done with? What did they do with memories, anyway? They had to have some reason for gathering them beyond giving them away again. No, he was just trying to avoid where this led. Burn him, the bloody foxes were inside his head right then! They had to be. It was the only explanation that made sense.

 

 

 

As for Rand and LTT being the same. Don't get me started on that.

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Basically he should of asked for his lost memories back and not the vague "I want those holes filled".  So they did what he asked, they didn't give him his memories but did fill the holes as he asked.  So he doesn't have the persons whole life from the time they went in to the times they died. he might he person A memory from a battle then the same person memory 5 years later dancing but not everything that happened to that person in those 5 years if I am reading that correctly. 

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1) to take the word USUALLY as some kind of evidence that transformations like Rand' have occurred before is very thin. Ok though if we are going to be pendantic about wording , she says voices instead of memories, i suppose its possible to hear voices of past lives without the memories, and if so what did she mean by "reintegration" ? And were the people Graendal helped even effected by the taint? They couldnt of of been in the AoL as there was no taint, and it doesn't seem likely that she found any effected by the taint in the exact same way as Rand in the short time she was free in the third age and cured them, never mind several as the quote seems to suggest.

No i think using that one one sentance as proof that the Rand/LTT merger is not unique makes for a very weak argument.

I asked for your evidence. You have none. "Usually" might be thin, but thin evidence is better than none. As for the taint, it's not really important. It causes madness, but the forms of madness it causes are possible without the taint.

2) so Mat has the memories of the men who entered the finnrealm, since they left to the day they died? Do you have any proof of that claim? I am aware that Mat thinks that the finns are in his head, but does he get all of the other mens or just fragments? I know the memories he received were given to him to fill in the blanks in his memory after his sickness, so how many years in total is that? 2? 4? 10? Its a lot less than 400 regardless of how much was forgotten in that time. And Rand' memories came from his soul, which must have retained LTTS memories, though it was the taint that made it possible to remember them, his soul was LTT and after VoG he could access them fully, so i dont know where the fragment comes from.

You've been claiming for a while that Mat's memories are fragments, how about you support that first?

3) objective truth of it? One RJ quote that is pre VoG? I can understand having a different opinion, but i hardly think the evidence supplied can be counted as truth. I think in a subject like this there is no one "objective truth" and is more about opinions and i think Rands is more valid than yours.

Rand's opinion is, as Barid shows, not as clear cut as you're trying to make out. And Word of God is from a higher source, so he can contradict the characters - he defines the mechanics of the world, the characters make educated guesses. You've also not shown that VoG is a game-changer in this respect.

1) from my point of view it seemed Mr Ares was making a case that Rands situation wasnt unique, but thats not really important.

 

As for the rest there are as many quotes as the ones you provided (Barid Bel) where Rand thought of LTT as himself, from Rands PoV in aMoL thinking on Demandred "I'm to blame for that , too, Rand thought. If i'd offered a hand instead of a smirk, if i'd congratulated instead of competed. If I'D been the man then that I AM now" and not to mention the Rand Sedai moment with cads, but this part is telling not long afterwards in ToM with min "LTT was mad" "At the end" Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate."

He goes on to say he was raised better.

 

As we can see some times he refers to LTT as a different person others as himself, obviously he was a different person physically, as regarding biological childred from his body so in that sense yes hes a different person but i still think it valid for him to think of LTT as himself.

I think it's a little thin to rely on Rand not making the distinction between himself and LTT every single time. The quotes Barid provided show that he does make that distinction, between himself (Rand) and himself-yet-not-actually-himself (LTT). Combine that opinion with RJ's quotes, plus anything else, it's just more and more compelling - all the evidence indicates that they are not one and the same.

1) since i am not the one who is disputing the opinion of the character himself, i dont think its really on me to present evidence. The burden of proof falls squarely on you.

And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying? I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.

Edited by damandred
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And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying?

The taint causes different forms of madness. One form of madness is people hearing voices from their past lives. These people were from the AoL as they were being treated by Graendal and when they heard a "real voice" she "usually" failed to heal them. The taint is irrelevant here as the madness is what's important, that and the fact that some achieved reintegration.

 

I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.

 

One must focus on the larger point of  different people not this "unique" goal post shift you've narrowed in on. When one looks at input in thread from Barid and others it's clear Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way.

 

 

Edited by Suttree
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And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying?

The taint causes different forms of madness. One form of madness is people hearing voices from their past lives. These people were from the AoL as they were being treated by Graendal and when they heard a "real voice" she "usually" failed to heal them. The taint is irrelevant here as the madness is what's important, that and the fact that some achieved reintegration.

I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.

One must focus on the larger point of different people not this "unique" goal post shift you've narrowed in on. When one looks at input in thread from Barid and others it's clear Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way.

 

1) OK say Graendal did come across people who heard voices of their past lives in the AoL, there is no evidence that they got the memories as well as those voices, as part of their madness. So it cannot really be used as a case in point president for Rands situation, as we dont really know enough about them. Thats not to say semi wasnt just lying her arse of at the time to unsettle Rand and get his allies to doubt him, which fits perfectly with her character and the attitude she adopted through most of her captivity.

 

2) "i dont think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this" a quote taken out of Barid' post and i asked you multiple times if you thought he was not unique which you failed to answer so i took to mean you thought he was, but maybe that was presumptuous, so i'll ask again, do you think Rand is not unique? Im sorry if i presumed wrong in this but Maybe if you gave a straight answer it would cut the confusion.

And how is this a goal post shift? I have said from the start since the RJ quote was produced that i didnt think it applied to Rand because of his unique situation, in fact its gotten a bit annoying having to repeat myself. And i narrow in on it because i believe it extremely pertinent to my argument especially in regards to the RJ quote where he says that after death the person ceases, when in Rand' case this clearly isn't so, especially after VoG when the LTT persona merges with the Rand persona to create a new personality that also has all of LTT' memories.

 

Now i understand the argument that LTT and Rand are two different people im not stupid, but i would also say their two different versions of the same person, so in a way were both correct, i just think it valid that Rand can think of LTT as himself, but some people have a problem with that, and i also think it wrong to cry foul over someone else doing it, which Mr Ares did to sabio which started this whole debate in the first place.

Edited by damandred
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1) OK say Graendal did come across people who heard voices of their past lives in the AoL, there is no evidence that they got the memories as well as those voices, as part of their madness. So it cannot really be used as a case in point president for Rands situation, as we dont really know enough about them.

That's what a "real voice" means. They are privy to details and such from their past lives.

 

Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be… abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

2) "of course Rand is unique" a quote taken out of Barid' post and i asked you multiple times if you thought he was not unique which you failed to answer so i took to mean you thought he was, but maybe that was presumptuous, so i'll ask again, do you think Rand is not unique? Im sorry if i presumed wrong in this but Maybe if you gave a straight answer it would cut the confusion.

And how is this a goal post shift? I have said from the start since the RJ quote was produced that i didnt think it applied to Rand because of his unique situation, in fact its gotten a bit annoying having to repeat myself. And i narrow in on it because i believe it extremely pertinent to my argument especially in regards to the RJ quote where he says that after death the person ceases, when in Rand' case this clearly isn't so, especially after VoG when the LTT persona merges with the Rand persona to create a new personality that also has all of LTT' memories.

So he isn't unique in having access to a past life and achieving reintegration. We also have Birgitte's situation, she wasn't the same person as all of those past lives she had access to. So were back to well "I'm going to ignore the cosmology, it doesn't apply because he is the DR".

 

Now would be a good time to point out that simply "repeating" doesn't in any way help your argument. You've done little to nothing in backing up your opinion and shifted things a good deal throughout the conversation. Now would be a good time for you to define what makes up a person. Something you have studiously avoided. If in your mind personality and the body are also part of what makes a person and it isn't simply the soul, than this discussion is essentially over.

 

Edit: Also when referring to Rand being unique, let's put what Barid said in context. So again, as it to the topic we are discussing Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way.

 

1. I don't think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this. It is possible that all went mad (although Mr. Ares points to there having been some who have experienced the same). Whether or not Rand is the first or only isn't the point. It still doesn't make him and Lews Therin the same person.
Edited by Suttree
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So we know Rand's situation isn't unique since others have been through the same thing.  The issue is lives are different each time you live them, even next last battle whoever LTT is things won't happen the same.  But can you take credit for what has happened in past lives since the soul is the same.  Its just who you are is different

 

I also was thinking is what happened to brigette is sort of the same thing that happens when the DO stuffs a dead forsaken in a new body.  Osan'gar and Asan'gar were told the longer they inhabit the new body they would forget what they were and eventually it would seem as if they always had the new body.  Brigette at the end was forgetting all of her past lives so eventually would of seemed as if she always had this body. 

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@ Suttree

No matter how you want to spin it, that little speach by Semi is not evidence that the people Graendal had come across had the same illness as Rand. As i have already pointed out we dont know enough about them, were the voices accompanied by visions of the past or was it just information they supplied? Were they benevolent or raging mad like LTT? And what was reintegration exactly? Was it the same deal as after VoG? Or did the voice just fade? The quote you supplied seems to imply that reintegration can be made even if it wasnt a real voice, how does that work? And even if all them questions are answered, you still fail to acknowledge that Semi could be lying, Barid Bel pointed out be me that we Couldn't trust Rands words to Egwene as he was trying to manipulate her, well i site the same reasons for not trusting Semi who had more reason and is not as nice.

 

2) You keep coming out with this " well if your gonna ignore the cosmology" crap, when im not ignoring it at all. The quote by RJ said that when a person dies they cease, all well and good i take that to mean that when a person is reborn, they have no memory of the person they were before, therefore that person is effectively gone, ceased. Now with Rand this is clearly not the case, what started of as having a madman in his head fighting for control, ended up a realization that that was just another part of himself that the madness had made crazy. Heres a quote from VoG. "Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew -somehow - that he would never hear again Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were NOT two men and NEVER had been". Now i know people can say he could be wrong, but i think one crucial piece of evidence supports his claim, the fact he has NEVER HEARD LTT AGAIN, if he was right about that, why not about this? All i can see as evidence for you to say hes wrong is one author quote taking about what normally happens in regards to past lives, way before a event that defies that norm. I personally believe that if RJ ws alive today and asked about Rands case imparticular his answer would be different.

 

And i dont really know what makes a person, but im sure having the same soul, memories and goals, not to mention loves, ( Rand still has love for ilyena ) and his personality merged into his own goes a long way. Now why dont you explain how that doesnt make him LTT, without author quotes that bare no relevance to this situation. And if you mention the physical body this convo is over, see what i did there?

 

Lastly no matter what context Barids quote is in he says quite clearly no one thought Rand was not unique, something Mr Ares has been going out of his way to disprove, why else the Semi quote ?

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1) to take the word USUALLY as some kind of evidence that transformations like Rand' have occurred before is very thin. Ok though if we are going to be pendantic about wording , she says voices instead of memories, i suppose its possible to hear voices of past lives without the memories, and if so what did she mean by "reintegration" ? And were the people Graendal helped even effected by the taint? They couldnt of of been in the AoL as there was no taint, and it doesn't seem likely that she found any effected by the taint in the exact same way as Rand in the short time she was free in the third age and cured them, never mind several as the quote seems to suggest.

No i think using that one one sentance as proof that the Rand/LTT merger is not unique makes for a very weak argument.

I asked for your evidence. You have none. "Usually" might be thin, but thin evidence is better than none. As for the taint, it's not really important. It causes madness, but the forms of madness it causes are possible without the taint.

2) so Mat has the memories of the men who entered the finnrealm, since they left to the day they died? Do you have any proof of that claim? I am aware that Mat thinks that the finns are in his head, but does he get all of the other mens or just fragments? I know the memories he received were given to him to fill in the blanks in his memory after his sickness, so how many years in total is that? 2? 4? 10? Its a lot less than 400 regardless of how much was forgotten in that time. And Rand' memories came from his soul, which must have retained LTTS memories, though it was the taint that made it possible to remember them, his soul was LTT and after VoG he could access them fully, so i dont know where the fragment comes from.

You've been claiming for a while that Mat's memories are fragments, how about you support that first?

3) objective truth of it? One RJ quote that is pre VoG? I can understand having a different opinion, but i hardly think the evidence supplied can be counted as truth. I think in a subject like this there is no one "objective truth" and is more about opinions and i think Rands is more valid than yours.

Rand's opinion is, as Barid shows, not as clear cut as you're trying to make out. And Word of God is from a higher source, so he can contradict the characters - he defines the mechanics of the world, the characters make educated guesses. You've also not shown that VoG is a game-changer in this respect.

1) from my point of view it seemed Mr Ares was making a case that Rands situation wasnt unique, but thats not really important.

 

As for the rest there are as many quotes as the ones you provided (Barid Bel) where Rand thought of LTT as himself, from Rands PoV in aMoL thinking on Demandred "I'm to blame for that , too, Rand thought. If i'd offered a hand instead of a smirk, if i'd congratulated instead of competed. If I'D been the man then that I AM now" and not to mention the Rand Sedai moment with cads, but this part is telling not long afterwards in ToM with min "LTT was mad" "At the end" Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate."

He goes on to say he was raised better.

 

As we can see some times he refers to LTT as a different person others as himself, obviously he was a different person physically, as regarding biological childred from his body so in that sense yes hes a different person but i still think it valid for him to think of LTT as himself.

I think it's a little thin to rely on Rand not making the distinction between himself and LTT every single time. The quotes Barid provided show that he does make that distinction, between himself (Rand) and himself-yet-not-actually-himself (LTT). Combine that opinion with RJ's quotes, plus anything else, it's just more and more compelling - all the evidence indicates that they are not one and the same.

 

1) since i am not the one who is disputing the opinion of the character himself, i dont think its really on me to present evidence. The burden of proof falls squarely on you.

And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying? I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.

 

Actually, you are disputing the opinion of the character himself - look at the quotes Barid provided, and how they contradict your view. Further, I have met my burden of proof. And I did answer where other people with voices came from. By now, Suttree has answered that as well, but I still said it and you still quoted it.

 

 

 

And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying?

The taint causes different forms of madness. One form of madness is people hearing voices from their past lives. These people were from the AoL as they were being treated by Graendal and when they heard a "real voice" she "usually" failed to heal them. The taint is irrelevant here as the madness is what's important, that and the fact that some achieved reintegration.

I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.

One must focus on the larger point of different people not this "unique" goal post shift you've narrowed in on. When one looks at input in thread from Barid and others it's clear Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way.

 

1) OK say Graendal did come across people who heard voices of their past lives in the AoL, there is no evidence that they got the memories as well as those voices, as part of their madness. So it cannot really be used as a case in point president for Rands situation, as we dont really know enough about them. Thats not to say semi wasnt just lying her arse of at the time to unsettle Rand and get his allies to doubt him, which fits perfectly with her character and the attitude she adopted through most of her captivity.

 

Firstly, there is evidence, as already provided. That evidence might not be conclusive, but I never said it was conclusive proof, just that a weight of evidence suggests it. Given the quotes provided in the thread from RJ, Semi and Rand all pointing towards them not being the same person that's a weight of evidence. And while it's true that Semi might be lying, there's no evidence of it. She speaks true on some matters after her capture, including admitting who she is. While she would want to unsettle Rand and get his allies to doubt him, that in itself is not suggestive of untruth on her part - because we know for a fact she used the truth for at least some things she said, and did so for the same reason. Where has she lied? I remember all the debates on this from between KoD and TGS, and no-one could put forward anything to even strongly suggest she was lying. Maybe she does a fair bit more lying in TGS (I only recall her lying to herself after Cadsuane breaks her), but, again, no evidence has been put forward.

 

2) "i dont think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this" a quote taken out of Barid' post and i asked you multiple times if you thought he was not unique which you failed to answer so i took to mean you thought he was, but maybe that was presumptuous, so i'll ask again, do you think Rand is not unique? Im sorry if i presumed wrong in this but Maybe if you gave a straight answer it would cut the confusion.

And how is this a goal post shift? I have said from the start since the RJ quote was produced that i didnt think it applied to Rand because of his unique situation, in fact its gotten a bit annoying having to repeat myself. And i narrow in on it because i believe it extremely pertinent to my argument especially in regards to the RJ quote where he says that after death the person ceases, when in Rand' case this clearly isn't so, especially after VoG when the LTT persona merges with the Rand persona to create a new personality that also has all of LTT' memories.

In Rand's case it certainly was true, though - LTT did cease. And while Rand might incorporate aspects of him, it still isn't LTT come again. LTT did cease and he never came back, for all that bits of him did. So the RJ quote is very pertinent.

 

Now i understand the argument that LTT and Rand are two different people im not stupid, but i would also say their two different versions of the same person, so in a way were both correct, i just think it valid that Rand can think of LTT as himself, but some people have a problem with that, and i also think it wrong to cry foul over someone else doing it, which Mr Ares did to sabio which started this whole debate in the first place.

If people hold mistaken opinions, it is not unreasonable to correct them. There's nothing wrong with helping others to get a better understanding of the series.

 

@ Suttree

No matter how you want to spin it, that little speach by Semi is not evidence that the people Graendal had come across had the same illness as Rand.

Yes, it is. Evidence is exactly what it is. At the very least it is strongly suggestive. Now, you might say we don't know enough, but, again, that doesn't make this not evidence. It's not conclusive proof, it's just more evidence to add to the pile.

 

2) You keep coming out with this " well if your gonna ignore the cosmology" crap, when im not ignoring it at all. The quote by RJ said that when a person dies they cease, all well and good i take that to mean that when a person is reborn, they have no memory of the person they were before, therefore that person is effectively gone, ceased. Now with Rand this is clearly not the case,

No, in Rand's case it clearly is still true. Consider the point RJ makes - that for all a part of you continues, you still cease, and therefore you still have reason to fear death. A part of LTT came back, but he still ceased.

Now i know people can say he could be wrong, but i think one crucial piece of evidence supports his claim, the fact he has NEVER HEARD LTT AGAIN,

That doesn't really support his claim, though, it merely elaborates his opinion. Also, "never heard him again" covers a span of a couple of months - how telling is that in truth? Further, as Barid has already shown, Rand still thinks of a separation between himself and LTT. They are the same yet not.

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1) OK say Graendal did come across people who heard voices of their past lives in the AoL, there is no evidence that they got the memories as well as those voices, as part of their madness. So it cannot really be used as a case in point president for Rands situation, as we dont really know enough about them.

That's what a "real voice" means. They are privy to details and such from their past lives.

 

Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be… abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

2) "of course Rand is unique" a quote taken out of Barid' post and i asked you multiple times if you thought he was not unique which you failed to answer so i took to mean you thought he was, but maybe that was presumptuous, so i'll ask again, do you think Rand is not unique? Im sorry if i presumed wrong in this but Maybe if you gave a straight answer it would cut the confusion.

And how is this a goal post shift? I have said from the start since the RJ quote was produced that i didnt think it applied to Rand because of his unique situation, in fact its gotten a bit annoying having to repeat myself. And i narrow in on it because i believe it extremely pertinent to my argument especially in regards to the RJ quote where he says that after death the person ceases, when in Rand' case this clearly isn't so, especially after VoG when the LTT persona merges with the Rand persona to create a new personality that also has all of LTT' memories.

So he isn't unique in having access to a past life and achieving reintegration. We also have Birgitte's situation, she wasn't the same person as all of those past lives she had access to. So were back to well "I'm going to ignore the cosmology, it doesn't apply because he is the DR".

 

Now would be a good time to point out that simply "repeating" doesn't in any way help your argument. You've done little to nothing in backing up your opinion and shifted things a good deal throughout the conversation. Now would be a good time for you to define what makes up a person. Something you have studiously avoided. If in your mind personality and the body are also part of what makes a person and it isn't simply the soul, than this discussion is essentially over.

 

Edit: Also when referring to Rand being unique, let's put what Barid said in context. So again, as it to the topic we are discussing Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way.

 

1. I don't think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this. It is possible that all went mad (although Mr. Ares points to there having been some who have experienced the same). Whether or not Rand is the first or only isn't the point. It still doesn't make him and Lews Therin the same person.

 

 

The problem with comparing Birgitte to Rand is that when she was "yanked" into being as Elaine's Warder, she had full knowledge of herself and her past lives already. There was no conflict. Rand on the other hand lived 18 years previous to any LTT memories and fought those memories for pretty close to 2 years before "integration".

 

Again, this was supposed to be about Mat and to be honest, all three of them (Rand, Birgitte and Mat) are different.

At one end, Mat always separates his given memories from his own and never feels that he actually lived them, there is never a question in that and it never adversely affects Mat because of that separation. There is no need to fight those memories because he simply knows they're not his in the first place. He accepts that both his own memories and those of those other men can exist at the same time.

Birgitte on the other hand is at the other end of the spectrum, she has lived all those lives and was that person 100%. There is no separation at all and because of that, there is also no need to fight them. She accepts both/all. That they can all exist at the same time.

Rand is unlike either of them and comes in in the middle. He doesn't accept LTT's memories which leads to him fighting them and having the issues with them. It's not until he accepts them, that he was LTT but is now Rand that his issues with them go away.

Rand's issue wasn't even that he had LTT's memories, the issue was his refusal to believe those memories could co-exist with his own. 

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@ Mr Ares

"Look at the quotes Barid provided and how they contradict your view"

 

As i said to Barid, for as many quotes as there is of Rand referring to the AoL self as LTT, there is as many in ToM and aMoL of him thinking of LTT as himself, Maybe more. As i said to Suttree both are correct, he is thinking of another version of himself.

 

2) You say the Semi speach is evidence to suggest that people have had the same sort experience as Rand. I disagree, it is evidence to suggest other people have heard voices of past lives, and it is far from conclusive, semi could of been lying. To say because she admitted who she was is a indication of truthfulness is with respect a bit naive, as all know the best lies are often mixed with truth and she did have very limited time on screen in the series to lie, though she did pose as someone else and is a forsaken, so we can hardly call her a paragon of truth. But even if she was telling the truth, i repeat it is only evidence people heard voices and gained information through them, there is nothing to suggest these people had actual memories and in some cases tastes and habits, and post VoG it becomes redundant anyway as Rand no longer hears LTT.

 

3) "LTT did cease and he never came back, for all that bits of him did"

 

"A part of LTT came back, but he still ceased"

 

Two quotes from your last post that not only contradict themselves, but each other.

So your saying that only part of LTT ceased? That seems to be at odds with the RJ quote you present as evidence for your case, plus if thats the case isnt that part of Rand entitled to regard LTT as himself? Or are you saying he did cease, but a part of him came back? IMO its a pretty big part and Wouldn't that part also have the right to regard LTT as himself?

For make no mistake, the memories had to have come from somewhere. Wouldn't you say rather, that during VoG Rand become fully aware of his previous life, he got not only his memories, but also his loves and regrets, so in effect LTT came back and and incorporated himself into Rand and if not LTT himself then most of him that matters. Rand remembered HIS own past life, a different version of himself to be sure, but still himself.

 

4) "If people hold mistaken opinions, it is not unreasonable to correct them, There's nothing wrong with helping people get a better understanding of the series"

 

But your not helping them get a better understanding of the series, your forcing your opinion on them and presenting it as truth. No matter how strongly you believe in what you say it is your opinion only and is not cannon. As I've already said i Think your argument has a lot of merit, Rand is not LTT and LTT is not Rand, their two different versions of the same person, but after VoG i think it perfectly valid for Rand to think of LTT as himself and for other people to do so also.

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@ Mr Ares

"Look at the quotes Barid provided and how they contradict your view"

 

As i said to Barid, for as many quotes as there is of Rand referring to the AoL self as LTT, there is as many in ToM and aMoL of him thinking of LTT as himself, Maybe more. As i said to Suttree both are correct, he is thinking of another version of himself.

Doesn't address the point.

 

2) You say the Semi speach is evidence to suggest that people have had the same sort experience as Rand. I disagree, it is evidence to suggest other people have heard voices of past lives, and it is far from conclusive, semi could of been lying. To say because she admitted who she was is a indication of truthfulness is with respect a bit naive, as all know the best lies are often mixed with truth and she did have very limited time on screen in the series to lie, though she did pose as someone else and is a forsaken, so we can hardly call her a paragon of truth. But even if she was telling the truth, i repeat it is only evidence people heard voices and gained information through them, there is nothing to suggest these people had actual memories and in some cases tastes and habits, and post VoG it becomes redundant anyway as Rand no longer hears LTT.

None of that is a reason to claim it is not evidence. Saying that the evidence is unreliable and inconclusive - which is what you are doing - doesn't stop it being evidence. Could Semi have been lying? Yes. I admitted as much. Is there any evidence to suggest that she is? No. "Oh, the best lies are mixed with truth"... So what? That in itself might be true, but is irrelevant, as it is in no way an indicator that she used any degree of untruth in what she said. Her motivation remains the same for telling the truth or lying, so you can't say she has reason to lie. What you need is evidence to suggest that she is lying, which you don't have. Also, note the prescience of what she said - Rand did reintegrate LTT, which is exactly what she said the cure was. So post-VOG doesn't make her statements redundant, it makes them even more demonstrably true than before. So if everything we could conclusively say was true or not at the time she said it was indeed true, and if subsequent developments continued to bear her story out, then we see a mass of truth and no indication of a grain of lie. And saying that her statements are inconclusive due to a lack of information in the same paragraph you point out that she only had very limited screen time doesn't help your case in the slightest. You can say there is ambiguity, but I just shrug. I've admitted that already, and it doesn't stop her statements being evidence. It might stop them being proof, as I have already admitted, but something can be evidence without being proof. If someone was stabbed to death and the bloody knife with your fingerprints on the handle was found in your possessions, is that conclusive proof that you are the killer? No. Is it evidence? Yes. While it is true that the knife might be planted, that doesn't change the fact that it was in your possessions, with your fingerprints. So it is here - I held Semi's statements up as evidence, not as a smoking gun. You try to claim that because it doesn't conclusively settle the matter beyond a shadow of a doubt means it can't be evidence, but that is wrong. Not my opinion, simple fact.

 

3) "LTT did cease and he never came back, for all that bits of him did"

 

"A part of LTT came back, but he still ceased"

 

Two quotes from your last post that not only contradict themselves, but each other.

Not seeing the contradiction. If you died and your heart was transplanted into me, you have still died, you have still ceased, for all that a part of you has continued. And it would be wrong of me to claim to be you, even though I had a part of you - some might say a fairly big one, one you couldn't live without - inside me.

So your saying that only part of LTT ceased?

No, I'm saying all of him ceased. Hence saying "he still ceased" and "LTT did cease and he never came back". He was dead for about 4,000 years. That seems pretty definitively ceased to me. He is a late Dragon, he has ceased to be. Bereft of life he rests in peace, he expired and when to meet his maker, he is an ex-Dragon. The only reason he wasn't pushing up the daisies is because he was nailed to his perch (and his body was destroyed as well).

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"Doesnt address the point"

Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand.

2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat.

3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious.

You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own.

4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me"

So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.

 

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Please stick to the subject matter at hand. 

 

I'd say this topic has become redundant now. Of course you can continue on, but both sides have stated their opinions, both have responded and there is really not much more to say. Agree to disagree on the matter, as it is not a 100% conclusive subject. Both opinions are valid, nobody is going to change their minds, and people who read this discussion can make their own minds up about the topic as both sides have been presented. 

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Please stick to the subject matter at hand.

 

I'd say this topic has become redundant now. Of course you can continue on, but both sides have stated their opinions, both have responded and there is really not much more to say. Agree to disagree on the matter, as it is not a 100% conclusive subject. Both opinions are valid, nobody is going to change their minds, and people who read this discussion can make their own minds up about the topic as both sides have been presented.

Yeah ok, apologies on my part if you feel this topic has hijacked the thread.

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"Doesnt address the point"

 

Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand.

But not the point. You're talking about something else.

 

2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat.

A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions?

 

3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious.

That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy.

 

You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own.

An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did.

 

4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me"

 

So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.

Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life...

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Guess this is where the confusion for me come into play on whether or not Rand can claim to be LTT and say he did those deeds.  At the end of Gathering Storm it says:

 

He knew--somehow--that he would never again hear Lewis Therin's voice in his head.  For they were not two men, they never were. 

 

So my question is was LTT really in his head?  Was LTT really trying to take control of the power?  Was LTT ever truly in his head?

 

The forsaken were always wrong about Rand because time after time when they try to predict what Rand would do in terms of what would LTT do.  Not realizing it might be LTT's soul but its Rand and he won't act like LTT.  Grendal I think is the only one who truly figured that out after he balefired her fortress.  Dem couldn't imagine LTT would leave command of the battle to someone else, LTT would be in charge, LTT would want to be the hero.  When the soul might of been LTT's but doesn't mean it was LTT and would act the same as LTT did.  They never took into consideration his upbringing etc were all different.  For them Rand was LTT plain and simple. 

 

I still say it all comes down to how you view a reborn soul.  Brigette knew her different lives and many times says she did this or she did so she seems to think even though they were different lives she still claims she did it.  Normally during a normal rebirth she would have no memory of any past lives until she died and was chilling in the world of dreams. 

 

Mat has none of those issues since he know he never lived those lives and he gets just fragments and not their whole lives.

 

Rand has all of LTT memories and can basically remember LTT's entire life.  Rand knows LTT was a separate person but seems to sometimes bounce from them being separate and sometimes claiming he did that stuff.  Like when he claims to be 400 years old. 

 

I think there is no right or wrong way to look at this since it simply comes down to how an individual person views souls and being reborn.  Its the same soul but is each life a different person or is a soul a combination of lives?

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"Doesnt address the point"

 

Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand.

But not the point. You're talking about something else.

2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat.

A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions?

3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious.

That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy.

You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own.

An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did.

4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me"

 

So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.

Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life...

Have already gone through most of this, and have to agree with Barid we are just repeating ourselves. I think your wrong but respect your opinion. Question though. When you say "even then he didn't come back entirely" apart from his body what else didnt come back?

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"Doesnt address the point"

 

Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand.

But not the point. You're talking about something else.

2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat.

A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions?

3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious.

That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy.

You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own.

An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did.

4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me"

 

So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.

Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life...

Have already gone through most of this, and have to agree with Barid we are just repeating ourselves. I think your wrong but respect your opinion. Question though. When you say "even then he didn't come back entirely" apart from his body what else didnt come back?

 

Most of his mind and personality.

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"Doesnt address the point"

 

Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand.

But not the point. You're talking about something else.

2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat.

A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions?

3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious.

That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy.

You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own.

An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did.

4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me"

 

So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.

Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life...
Have already gone through most of this, and have to agree with Barid we are just repeating ourselves. I think your wrong but respect your opinion. Question though. When you say "even then he didn't come back entirely" apart from his body what else didnt come back?

Most of his mind and personality.

What evidence do you have to support that?

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

 

Most of his mind and personality.

What evidence do you have to support that?
The evidence for personality has been provided a number of times in thread.
Yeah, missed that, would you mind pointing it out to me?

 

 

You and me both and I wish you luck getting a straight answer to as where they are  :wink:

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