The only way for Rand to win permanently

[nashdude]

I wonder about this... the Wheel turns, and what once was comes back again. Everything is set in the Pattern. That's the way it's always been.

 

But Birgette was spun out of the Pattern prematurely, wasn't she? That seems to indicate that nothing is truly permanent. But the continued cycling of the Wheel of Time depends on the same general outcomes occurring. What happens if you "break the Wheel", so to speak? If you were to destroy the Dark One, wouldn't that break the cycle? Likewise, if the Dark One defeated Rand, wouldn't that break the cycle as well? It seems to me that the reason the Wheel continues to spin is because of an eternal stalemate, neither side ever winning.

 

Thoughts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

So long as the Wheel exists, there can never be a "Final Victory" for either side.

 

Once the Creator fashioned the Wheel and gave it the power to control events and shape men's lives, it became a third independent actor in the cosmic drama. Like any other entity, The Wheel's only concern is its continued existence. Thus it will always shape events such that neither side ever totally wins.

 

In order for man to be free from the interference of any of the Big Three, it will be necessary to first break the Wheel, and then destroy both the Creator and the Dark One. Only then will mankind be free to shape its own destiny.

[Jellybelly]

Well, you have to realize that there is no wheel. It is merely a symbol of the cyclic nature of Time. Time functions that way in the Randland universe, it is not a player of its own.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The wheel could be broken, theoretically, if a way was found that would either completely use up Saidin and Saidar, or cause them to fail completely. This assumes that there is some truth to all the statements about Saidin and Saidar being the powers that drive the Wheel.

[Kadere]

The whole point of the battle between the Dragon and the DO is that the DO wants to break the wheel. Also the whole point is that if you get rid of evil it destroys the wheel. The stalement has to happen otherwise time dies. This is the point of the series. This is what Jordan's been saying for years. Glad you noticed.

[TaeaDawn]

Just a thought... can you kill the DO?

 

I mean... destroying the DO will not kill all evil. Evil and Good are inherant in all things, therefore, if the DO was killed someone else would just pop up and take his place.

 

Maybe that's what's always happened. Perhaps the Dragon always wins... and destroys the current represtentation of the DO. And thats why it always takes time for the DO to regain his power. He is a new incarnation of the DO and thus must grow and learn his powers each time.

 

Just a thought as I was reading the debate :P

[nashdude]

Not sure if the DO can be killed or not, but perhaps he can be cancelled out somehow, the same way the taint and the evil in the dagger cancelled eachother out.

[Kadere]

I really don't think they kill the dark one at the end of every age, otherwise they would have killed him at the end of the last age instead of imprisoning him. RJ has said that the DO really can't be destoryed, because he's part of the universe. He'll exist forever, or until he wins. It's the down side of free will.

[Blade]

Yeah, you remember Rand's little trip through the rhuidean rings? It shows the dark one's prison being broken open by lanfear who thought it would allow both men and women to channel the same power...which it sort of did, however it loosed the dark one. In order to properly seal the dark one away, it's got to take a combined force of both men and women linked since as it says, the greatest feats of the age of legends were done by both.

[JediMaster]

Isn't it possible just to, say, the outcome of the last battle will adjust the wheel. Say Rand wins and utterly and forever destroys the DO. The wheel will continue to turn, "the Great battle done, but the world not done with battle (LOC:Dreams & Nightmares)," but now the DO will have no swing. The pattern will be ripped apart for awhile before it settles down to create another sort of stalemate between good and evil, only no DO since Rand destroyed him. Cause if the DO breaks free he destroys the pattern and the wheel. If Rand wins the WOT will probably just adjust in response to free will right? It doesn't make sense that the wheel will be destroyed no matter what Rand does, win or lose. It doesn't make sense for the wheel to be destroyed by the defeat of evil and by the victory of it at the same time.

[Tylins Toy]

I really don't think they kill the dark one at the end of every age' date=' otherwise they would have killed him at the end of the last age instead of imprisoning him. RJ has said that the DO really can't be destoryed, because he's part of the universe. He'll exist forever, or until he wins. It's the down side of free will.[/quote']

 

This is correct. Do you guys remember in The Great Hunt when Rand is going through the alternate worlds as a means of travel, it shows Randland in a different way. It is different because of events and the way they took place.

 

Let us say that the Dark One beats the Dragon this age, then the next few ages will have a very dark influence, until the Dragon rises again to try again. I don't think that either faction can be deleted, but can be muted in a sense.

 

It is still important to win against the Dark One, but I don't think a win constitutes a killing, more like a banishing.

[alCal]

Let us say that the Dark One beats the Dragon this age' date=' then the next few ages will have a very dark influence, until the Dragon rises again to try again. [/quote']

 

That is not possible. If the DO wins (breaks free) he'll destroy the Wheel forever, kill time itself. There will be no more Ages, no more Dragons. That is why it's so important to win: if the DO wins, he'll win forever.

[nashdude]

See, here's my thinking on this. When Birgette was spun out of the Pattern prematurely, she became an anomaly, so much so that she was afraid that this was her last go round on the Wheel. If that is so, than ANYONE who's taken a spin on the Wheel can be spun off it permanently.. DO, Rand, anyone.

[alCal]

The DO however isn't really tied to the Wheel. He exists outside the Pattern. (I think?)

[Deathblade]

Um... If someone is balefired, are they Reborn... ever? If not, if Rand or Moridin is balefired, Light or Shadow will forever be without their champion...

[Dionysus]

In order for man to be free from the interference of any of the Big Three' date=' it will be necessary to first break the Wheel, and then destroy both the Creator and the Dark One. Only then will mankind be free to shape its own destiny.[/quote']

 

How very Nietzschian of you :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nahhhhhh...

 

Niettzche had a MUCH BIGGER brain.

 

I've heard stories that he couldn't even hold his head up.

[Dionysus]

Probably why he kept falling off horses.

[dalic]

Warning: CoS spoiler.

 

 

 

In CoS when Moghedian gets her mindtrap she wakes up in that strange room with no openings. She think about how it is a vacuole. She thinks about how they exist outside the pattern somehow and can collapse or break off and drift away from the pattern. Once this happens whatever is in the vacuole is lost to the pattern forever. What if the DO somehow got placed in one of those vacuoles and it collapsed or broke away? You wouldn't have to kill him but he would be no danger anymore.

[Tylins Toy]

Let us say that the Dark One beats the Dragon this age' date=' then the next few ages will have a very dark influence, until the Dragon rises again to try again. [/quote']

 

That is not possible. If the DO wins (breaks free) he'll destroy the Wheel forever, kill time itself. There will be no more Ages, no more Dragons. That is why it's so important to win: if the DO wins, he'll win forever.

 

I don't believe for a second that the dark one would destroy everything. This would include himself. He would just destroy what is of the free world.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Don't forget that we already have an example of a world in which the Dark One wins. (He actually hadnt won yet, but would do so by default since no one was left to oppose him.) This occurred they are tracking Fain after he steals the Horn and Dagger and Lanfear portal stones Rand, Hurin and Loial to another world. The Trollocs won the wars that time, and the result is that everything living (except for grolm and possibly raken) have been killed off. Whether he destroys it directly, or not, a win for him would still result in the death of everything.

[alCal]

 

That is not possible. If the DO wins (breaks free) he'll destroy the Wheel forever' date=' kill time itself. There will be no more Ages, no more Dragons. That is why it's so important to win: if the DO wins, he'll win forever.[/quote']

 

I don't believe for a second that the dark one would destroy everything. This would include himself. He would just destroy what is of the free world.

 

I didn't say he'd destroy everything. But if he breaks free, he will destroy the Wheel. If the Wheel doesn't exist, there will be no more rebirths of the Dragon, meaning eternal victory for the shadow.

I don't know if he would have to create a new thing to "run the universe", or if he could do it himself, but there would (as I said) be no Wheel.

 

I believe this is actually said by someone somewhere in the books, but I can't remember. Possibly Ishy.