Wow, just WOW! (RJ's Notes viewed by Terez)

[Leopoled Boothe]

We do know RJ detailed the ending, it's just that the road to getting there likely bears only a passing resemblance to what we would have gotten had RJ lived.

 

 

 

Very true, and this is comforting since for me the most important thing was that the story would end as RJ intended.

 

 

 

As for Egwene's death, TJ has remained oddly silent one that one. They have refused to commit either way.

 

Again quite true.  Perhaps they intend to go into detail concerning Egwene's death in the encyclopedia and don't want to spoil anything.  

[Orderofolde]

I think BS and TJ made the best out of a bad situation.  I think that there are some things that RJ would have done much better over the course of 5 books for AMOL, (yes, that's five not the three as it became) and BS added a fan-based perspective and certainly the whole Androl/Pevara and Black Tower he had to come up with all by himself was actually pretty good. 

[udbabor520]

We do know RJ detailed the ending,

 

I don't believe the 'detailed ending'. They said that Jordan left detailed notes but Sanderson confirmed that all of Jordan's stuff was max. a few dozen pages with many contradictories. They said that Jordan (on his deathbed) told them the ending, but there was no tape (!), so someone recorded his words with shorthand. Sanderson told us that he 1. did not touch the ending, 2. tinkered a little bit, 3. tinkered a lot, so I assume the 'detailed ending' is just a myth.

[Isabel]

 

We do know RJ detailed the ending,

 

I don't believe the 'detailed ending'. They said that Jordan left detailed notes but Sanderson confirmed that all of Jordan's stuff was max. a few dozen pages with many contradictories. They said that Jordan (on his deathbed) told them the ending, but there was no tape (!), so someone recorded his words with shorthand. Sanderson told us that he 1. did not touch the ending, 2. tinkered a little bit, 3. tinkered a lot, so I assume the 'detailed ending' is just a myth.

 

 

There is a tape. On the first Jordan Con they let us listen to part of the tape in which RJ told us part of the prologue:)

[DemandredFO]

My guess is that had RJ ever progressed to the Last Battle it would have progressed much like Luckers outline(sorry I don't have a link). The Melee at the Field of Merrilor doesn't seem like good strategy and it seemed like we were building to a shadow attack on the Tower

[threadnecromancer]

I am intrigued about the red-hot iron, any hints on what it was supposed to end up hinting at?

 

I suppose now it represents a dark future event for Rand in Moridin's body though.

[Orderofolde]

 

We do know RJ detailed the ending,

 

I don't believe the 'detailed ending'. They said that Jordan left detailed notes but Sanderson confirmed that all of Jordan's stuff was max. a few dozen pages with many contradictories. They said that Jordan (on his deathbed) told them the ending, but there was no tape (!), so someone recorded his words with shorthand. Sanderson told us that he 1. did not touch the ending, 2. tinkered a little bit, 3. tinkered a lot, so I assume the 'detailed ending' is just a myth.

 

You have to remember, the detailed ending was comprised of the ending that he wrote, the audio recording of him explaining the rest of what was supposed to be one simple last book, his revelation to Wilson and family "That there is a VILLAGE in the Blight" among other things, and what he managed to write down when he realized that the end was possibly near and he reversed his decision to allow someone else to finish his great work.  RJ was a Master Storyteller, and the sheer scope of what he outlined was large in itself, but bridging the arcs where Knife of Dreams left off and the end of AMOL required three books for BS to finish.  We all know that RJ would have needed around 4-5 to do it himself properly.  It was abridged in places, lots of plots and sub-arcs were left unfinished, lots of RAFO went unanswered, new characters were needed to be written in such as Androl to explain the how of Logain's glory and the Black Tower freeing itself(Just look at how many of Min's viewings weren't tied up, vague bits among the various prophecies especially the dark prophesies regarding Perrin.  Team Jordan took convincing just to split "AMOL" into two books originally, and then the last was split into TOM and AMOL.  

[Suttree]

RJ was a Master Storyteller, and the sheer scope of what he outlined was large in itself, but bridging the arcs where Knife of Dreams left off and the end of AMOL required three books for BS to finish. We all know that RJ would have needed around 4-5 to do it himself properly.

Sorry but this is just absurd. 4-5 more books!? It's been broken down in great detail elsewhere but it became appallingly clear that there wasn't near enough material. The last three books were filled with a ton of bloat and filler due to the artificial split.It was a publishers decision and a terrible one at that. RJ could have done one book split into two volumes and the structure would have been far superior.

 

new characters were needed to be written in such as Androl to explain the how of Logain's glory and the Black Tower freeing itself

Curious as to why you think the above? Brandon Sanderson wanted a character and TJ decided that Androl would do. He certainly was not "needed" for anything.

 

Team Jordan took convincing just to split "AMOL" into two books originally, and then the last was split into TOM and AMOL.

That's not how it happened.

[Orderofolde]

4-5 books as in the 3 that BS ended up doing for the original AMOL, to clarify.

[Mr Ares]

 

RJ was a Master Storyteller, and the sheer scope of what he outlined was large in itself, but bridging the arcs where Knife of Dreams left off and the end of AMOL required three books for BS to finish. We all know that RJ would have needed around 4-5 to do it himself properly.

Sorry but this is just absurd. 4-5 more books!? It's been broken down in great detail elsewhere but it became appallingly clear that there wasn't near enough material. The last three books were filled with a ton of bloat and filler due to the artificial split.It was a publishers decision and a terrible one at that. RJ could have done one book split into two volumes and the structure would have been far superior.

 

new characters were needed to be written in such as Androl to explain the how of Logain's glory and the Black Tower freeing itself

Curious as to why you think the above? Brandon Sanderson wanted a character and TJ decided that Androl would do. He certainly was not "needed" for anything.

Also, apparently a lot of the things Androl did were in the notes to be done by someone unspecific - rather than dividing things up between more minor Asha'man or focusing on one we've already come to know he just had Androl do everything.

[csarmi]

Someone even wrote down in detail what the plan likely was. On some other site.

[Orderofolde]

I'm confused...someone wrote in detail a likely plan?  I was simply comparing RJ's penchant for being long-winded and decidedly detailed.  What it took BS to do in 3 books I was simply saying that it would have taken RJ about 4-5 being generous.

[Orderofolde]

 

 

RJ was a Master Storyteller, and the sheer scope of what he outlined was large in itself, but bridging the arcs where Knife of Dreams left off and the end of AMOL required three books for BS to finish. We all know that RJ would have needed around 4-5 to do it himself properly.

Sorry but this is just absurd. 4-5 more books!? It's been broken down in great detail elsewhere but it became appallingly clear that there wasn't near enough material. The last three books were filled with a ton of bloat and filler due to the artificial split.It was a publishers decision and a terrible one at that. RJ could have done one book split into two volumes and the structure would have been far superior.

 

new characters were needed to be written in such as Androl to explain the how of Logain's glory and the Black Tower freeing itself

Curious as to why you think the above? Brandon Sanderson wanted a character and TJ decided that Androl would do. He certainly was not "needed" for anything.

Also, apparently a lot of the things Androl did were in the notes to be done by someone unspecific - rather than dividing things up between more minor Asha'man or focusing on one we've already come to know he just had Androl do everything.

 

Where can I find the notes on this?  BS quote, etc?

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

RJ was a Master Storyteller, and the sheer scope of what he outlined was large in itself, but bridging the arcs where Knife of Dreams left off and the end of AMOL required three books for BS to finish. We all know that RJ would have needed around 4-5 to do it himself properly.

Sorry but this is just absurd. 4-5 more books!? It's been broken down in great detail elsewhere but it became appallingly clear that there wasn't near enough material. The last three books were filled with a ton of bloat and filler due to the artificial split.It was a publishers decision and a terrible one at that. RJ could have done one book split into two volumes and the structure would have been far superior.

 

new characters were needed to be written in such as Androl to explain the how of Logain's glory and the Black Tower freeing itself

Curious as to why you think the above? Brandon Sanderson wanted a character and TJ decided that Androl would do. He certainly was not "needed" for anything.

Also, apparently a lot of the things Androl did were in the notes to be done by someone unspecific - rather than dividing things up between more minor Asha'man or focusing on one we've already come to know he just had Androl do everything.

 

Where can I find the notes on this?  BS quote, etc?

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27androl%27

 

QUESTION

Is there a character you took in a different direction from what Jordan had intended?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

In terms of a character, and what would happen to them ultimately, no, not really. However, there were times when some things had to be adjusted, specifically some plot points, in order to make the narrative as a whole flow better. Brandon did mention that he wanted a character that he felt was his own, which he got to do the most development on. That character became Androl. A lot of what Androl did were things which Jordan said had to happen. Brandon picked Androl to do them, and gave the character his own touch more than any other.

 

 

I will say that, early on, when I first met with them, I did say, "I would like to have a character that I can just kind of do whatever I want with," so that I have, you know...it was kind of, maybe hubristic of me or whatever—I wanted to do that, I'm like, "Can I have one to play with? I want an Asha'man to play with." And it was actually Maria who suggested Androl, and said "Go look at him; there's not a lot written about him. The personality, Robert Jordan doesn't have much written down for who he is, and he seems like he's well-poised to do this. That would be a very good one." So Androl, almost everything that's happening with him, Robert Jordan didn't say "Do it with him." There are things I have him doing that Robert Jordan said, in this notes, "This has to happen." But I specifically took Androl as a character and went places with him.

[csarmi]

I'm confused...someone wrote in detail a likely plan?  I was simply comparing RJ's penchant for being long-winded and decidedly detailed.  What it took BS to do in 3 books I was simply saying that it would have taken RJ about 4-5 being generous.

Evidence seems to indicate that it could have been done in 2 books easily. Dom wrote a nice article on it (maybe on RAFO?).

[DemandredFO]

I am confident it would never have been finished left to RJ. I enjoy all the books, except certain spots but after CoS it went off the rails. PoD-KoD span two in-world weeks or something. Any clue what the dark prophecy in tGH meant when it indicated the shining walls would kneel to Lanfear. Did RJ change his mind because Lanfear never did anything in her trips to the tower.

[DemandredFO]

When RJ said the DO could snatch someone if a minuscule amount of Balefire was used, that he thought of bringing back Be'lal? 

[Barid Bel Medar]

When RJ said the DO could snatch someone if a minuscule amount of Balefire was used, that he thought of bringing back Be'lal? 

 

Personally, I don't believe so. I think he said Be'lal was gone for good at one stage (don't quote me on that). 

 

I think that it was a dynamic that he developed after Be'lal's death when he further explored the DO's capabilities. This probably would have emerged when he thought of the resurrection of the Gars, so around book 6 (probably a few years before), and when he expanded on Transmigration and how it works, he realised that to be consistent in the explanation, it would mean that balefire could be gotten around if it was a tiny amount.

 

Of course, he could have known it all along and had that planned (although personally I believe that he would have brought him back much sooner, at least near the same time as Moridin and certainly Lanfear. However, there is some evidence in the LoC prologue that at the time, he had not thought of the balefire loopehole when the DO believes that balefire is the final death, and not even he could step outside of time.  

[Suttree]

I am confident it would never have been finished left to RJ.

 

Based on what? A statement like the above doesn't seem to be in touch with reality.

 

I enjoy all the books, except certain spots but after CoS it went off the rails. PoD-KoD span two in-world weeks or something.

 

It was three months and KoD pretty clearly shows he had things pointed in the correct direction.

[Werthead]

My guess is that had RJ ever progressed to the Last Battle it would have progressed much like Luckers outline(sorry I don't have a link). The Melee at the Field of Merrilor doesn't seem like good strategy and it seemed like we were building to a shadow attack on the Tower

 

One of the things it says clearly in the notes is that the Last Battle was to be fought at Caemlyn. At some point - and it is unclear if this was pre or post-RJ's passing - it was realised that this wouldn't make sense based on the distance from the Blight to Caemlyn and it was changed to the Field of Merrilor.

 

My summary of the notes - which I also got to see, albeit far more briefly - can be found here. I do steer away from the elements we were specifically asked not to talk about, and talk more about the proto-WoT Robert Jordan had in mind back in 1984.

 

Here's the crazy thing: the village in the Blight is present from the very earliest, mid-1980s notes, yet it was one of the last things to be revealed in the books.

[threadnecromancer]

That's too bad he changed it from Caemlyn, I don't think Andor is too far from the Blight really, one of my problems was that the Shadow did not advance far enough south in my opinion, having them push deeper, with a  longer war would have been interesting.

[DemandredFO]

Aside from more of the South needing to be destroyed, there is the name Camelyn = Camlaan of Arthurian mythology or however you spell it.

[DemandredFO]

Probably one of the reasons the location had to be changed to Merrilor was because the Last battle started too late in the series for any kind of Siege of Tar Valon or anywhere else.

[threadnecromancer]

I agree, which is too bad really, Jordan got too mired in southern politics to get the climactic battle rolling as soon as he ought to have, I think he originally planned for a longer final war (those early books have maps of the White Tower under siege from both the Seanchan and the Shadow, but we only got the one attack after all). This ending does have some interesting implications regarding the world through the Accepted Test, presumably that was after Rand lost the Last Battle.