[Basic] Clash of the ancients - Mafia Wins!

[Kaylee]

Official Vote Count

 

Dice (1/7): Lewis

Nolder (3/7): Tress, AJ, Thane

Lewis (3/7): Nolder, Dice, Darthe

 

Not Voting (5/12): Despo, Dawn, TG, Krak, Leno

 

 

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140422T19&p0=76

[LewisFriendly]

 

I'm already working on Avengers 2: Age of Ultron.  Since MyndJack is now defunct, I'll have to beg his Modness Verbal the High Exalted One to let me run it here. Thanks though.  I had so much fun modding that game.  I just wished that Deadpool got more play in that game.  I loved writing the Deadpool scenes.

Awesome. Put me on auto sign up when that happens.

 

Cool cool.

 

I'm also doing a Heroes Reborn game soon.  I was so disgusted with that show and how they messed it up from how cool it used to be, I thought I'd never do another Heroes game, but I think I can take a lot of creative liberties now and make it awesome. 

[Andrej]

 

I think he hasn't claimed his fellow Egyptian yet because he is probably worried that the person would be a more consensus town read to the other players over him. I really don't see the advantages of not claiming at this point and the fact that he has sort of avoided it until being forced to should say something.

 

You can speculate all you want but part of being on a team is having some give and take with your partner.

I screwed up with Jack (although he deserved it) I don't want to be known as the jerk who just does whatever they want on teams. Instead of grilling me about a minor detail maybe you could have some patience and wait until easter weekend is over so everyone can check in.

 

What minor detail do you think I am grilling you over?

 

I think you are experienced enough to know and understand that in a set-up like this, with how things are shaping up, that claiming would be important so we can figure out which teams are which and go from there.

 

You not being forthcoming with this kind of information speaks a lot to your mindset in this game, which I don't think is one that a person with a town PM plays with. You mentioned to me earlier when I told you that voting Ice was a bad idea that if I was going to hint that I should claim outright. I have been forthcoming with information as have several others. You, however, seem to want to keep things in the dark.

 

Couple this with how you seem to over simplifying everything and I think we have LOCKSCUM. You moved your vote to Ice for consolidation when there were other wagons present that would've given much more info. You justify this vote with your meta of voting inactives and the age old argument that lurkers hurt town. I can agree to a certain extent, but games aren't cut and dry like that. Your motive for attempting to start a new wagon on a player with a low post count on D1 vs. one of the other wagons that would provide info is pretty telling IMO.

 

That's just one strike, too.

 

Next you hammer your own QT mate. Yes, I think the Jack lynch was inevitable. But instead of saying plainly that you think Jack could be scum, you justify yourself in hammering because he self-voted - another policy vote/lynch type explanation that you could easily hide behind as meta.

 

So after all that happens, Day 2 starts and you want to vote Mynd/Lewis and then try to push some angle that Darthe and I are also scum and that the entire mafia lies within one faction. For one, with the NKs from N1 I think it should be evident against that and you pushing otherwise is pretty bad. It also doesn't match with your actions. If you really thought that all scum were all in one QT, I can't see how you thought hammering someone from your own QT would bring anything but a townie flip.

[amegakure]

 

I always considered that an inactive scum is better than an active one.  An inactive townie is just dead weight, we don't need them to get a majority.  Inactive scum are much more detrimental to the mafia team than town.  They can't coordinate their moves and in some games, have even ruined the mafia's gambit by not paying attention.

Here's the scenario I always consider when it comes to inactives.

It's endgame. Everyone is dead except two townies and 1 scum.

The scum and one townie have been active and one townie hasn't been but he's around now.

The decision rests with our active townie, does he trust the guy who's been active and go for the mysterious man behind door number 1...or does he side with the guy he knows nothing about and kill the active guy.

 

Let's examine those choices.

If he lynches the scum...aren't we going to feel cheated?

The scum put in a lot of work to stay active and pretend to scumhunt, to maneuver himself alive to endgame.

And what beat him and his team? The flip of a coin essentially. It's not based on logic or reason most of the time when this scenario pops up it's based on last minute tells, hints of nervousness or over defensiveness. Things that are really easy to misread. If all three were active they'd be looking at each others voting records and what they said and who did what but because that info isn't available they fall back on D1 type of scumhunting which for most people is very unreliable.

 

Let's flip it now.

He lynches the townie and scum win.

Well crap that sucks too doesn't it? Who's to say if that townie hadn't been active and towntelling that the other guy wouldn't have realized the scum was scum? By endgame unless a scum has played an excellent game they've showed their ass in at least one way or another so if you're looking at voting records and whatnot you can usually catch them if you're perceptive.

 

But let's flip the whole scenario and make the scummer inactive, does that really change anything? When someone who's been barely playing wins does anyone feel satisfied? Or likewise when he loses does it feel like an accomplishment, to beat a player who wasn't really playing? No it's lame all in all and most mafia players are going to be upset with how that game ends even if they're nice enough people not to gripe about it afterwards.

 

This is what can happen when you let inactives slide to the endgame but what that also does is leave a door open to use inactivity as a tactic. I don't blame mafia for using this tactic. The less mafia says the better oftentimes. It's townies job to keep everyone talking and to keep poking and prodding and getting everyone's position on the game. If you let people slide mafia WILL take advantage of it.

 

Hell just lazy people will. Then you have games like we see often now with 3-4 people inactive or barely active, 2-3 replacements, etc. And no one even considers how much extra work that puts on the mod and how rude it is to everyone. I know we're all friends, generally speaking, but we let each other get away with being very disrespectful to each other in that way. Excuse the language but if I called someone a bitch or an asshole in a serious manner everyone would freak out and tell me off but no one says anything to someone who chronically joins games and always has a very low post count. I'm not sure if you guys just don't understand how rude that really is or what but maybe you can take a second to think about how you feel as a mod when you have to replace someone you were counting on to play or how you feel as mafia when your teammate with an important role is just no where to be found. What about when you finally do lynch someone for inactivity and it was the cop or doc? Don't you guys ever feel cheated by this stuff? I know I do.

 

Stop letting these people go to end game. Stop rewarding the lazy players.

 

I had more to say but it got way too preachy.

But anyway that's my spiel on inactives more or less.

 

infinity respect points!

 

Official Vote Count

 

Dice (1/7): Lewis

Nolder (3/7): Tress, AJ, Thane

Lewis (3/7): Nolder, Dice, Darthe

 

Not Voting (5/12): Despo, Dawn, TG, Krak, Leno

 

 

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140422T19&p0=76

you are the best!

 

 

 

Anyone watching GOT?

[amegakure]

p.s. TOG comes out tomorrow im pumped and felt like sharing :)

[Darthe]

Nol isn't incredibly practical but he is really consistent with his overall views about the game etc.

 

Mynd is trying extremely hard to win me over to his way of thinking both on thread and in the QT, to take a step back and to sell me on the idea that I should consider that I have things wrong.  It seems that he has realized that he can't get me lynched and so now has to fight the uphill battle of attempting to convince me that we are all three town.

 

 

 

Lol Mynd that only works if we ignire that youve done everything in your power to sow 20 different ways that this thing is setup.

 

Spell-check is a thing.  (Says the guy who spells his name with a "y")

 

Darthe, as I said in the QT, if you are indeed town, take a step back and look at the game set-up objectively.  You've modded games before.  Wouldn't it make sense to place the scum on the teams with power roles?  It's pretty interesting that Nervo got whacked on N1.  Likely that he was ratted out.

 

Also, as you admitted on the QT, you are all but certain that Tress is town "obviously" - so, why are we not lynching Dice?  Even if I am scum, lynching Dice will either prove or disprove the setup. 

 

Please, for the town, stop this BIG GAME HUNTING obsession and step back.  Be objective.  Look at the game setup. 

 

 

Would it make sense to place scum on the teams with PRs?  Overall no, it wouldn't make sense to exclusively do so.  Perhaps some groups have both a mafia and a PR but exclusively doing one allows your setup to be gamed.  Agreed that he was more than likely ratted out though, that seems fairly basic logic.

 

Yes, Tress is quite clearly town.  That doesn't mean that Dice is scum or that lynching him will prove anything about the setup.  We can be almost 100% certain that this setup doesn't have 5 mafia.  Thus at least 1 QT likely is all town.  Ultimately that thins Dices chances by a fair margin but two points still stand.  They are that *lynching him will not 100% prove anything about the setup* and *ultimately a persons play is more important than what you can maybe glean from any setup*.  Based on these two truths I can safely conclude that the Dice lynch is a distraction and a waste of my time and that you are also aware of this because I know you're not new or dumb.

 

As for the big game hunting remark, I would say that it doesn't apply to me.  1) I tend to play like I am Gods gift to mafia so who could possibly be bigger game than myself?  2) I would be making the same arguments to anyone who thought they could slip by such weak remarks. 3) You're not playing like big game.

 

 

In my own defense, let me ask this:

 

Translating is one of the best ways to get to root intentions.  We use it a lot in psych.  Allow me to translate the above.  "I need to defend myself.  Allow me to present something for you to consider that may change your opinion."  I think I could lynch someone on this line alone.  

 

Since the scum team are the only ones aside from the Mods who know how the scum team is set up, wouldn't you agree that they will do everything in their power to try and confuse us and distract us from figuring this out?  It only serves them to keep their secret hidden and distract the town from figuring them out.  If the QTs are indeed compromised, they will be the ones who (at least initially) down play that idea and pooh-pooh anyone who brings it up. 

 

That's extremely basic logic.  Yes, the scum team will want to confuse people.  As a matter of fact, you're trying pretty hard.  However it only serves them to confuse people so long as people generally can be confused.  Once the basic premise of the setup is obvious this tactic ceases to be effective.  If I didn't know you better it would beg the question of why you are continuing.  As it stands I am well aware that the reason is that you can't back down without not only getting speedlynched but also losing the opportunity to WIFOM your words.  

 

The last thing the mafia wants to do is to ring the alarm.  This is exactly what I did when I saw Nolder hammer JackD and then JackD post about the QTs being compromised.  I figured that if Nolder was a scum traitor on JackD's civilization QT, then one of my fellow Vikings had to be scum to. 

 

You rang the alarm about something that was self evident.  All that you're doing by bringing this up is fishing for credibility.

 

Throw in Nolder's questionable push for Ice the Inactive's lynch, I began to think that of course Nolder would go after the guy on his own scum team who is inactive.  This would make him look like an angel. 

 

I argue with him about it constantly but he has done it in every single game for over a year now.  Beyond that this is basic WIFOM and highly suggestive but doesn't say anything which also makes it IIoA.  

 

I also got Darthe a bit spun up on the QT when I was pretty sure he was scum.   He's still reacting to this and I hate to say, he seems to be using emotion as his guide rather than logic.  Pity because all three of us Vikings are probably town. 

 

AtE and backpedaling

 

3 scum make up for the vig being in the game.  If there were 4, then having a vig in a game could end the whole thing in favor of the mafia with a town lynch on day 3. 

 

1 scum on each of the civs that have power roles.

 

the other two teams are all vanilla townies. 

 

I think that would be the best setup. 

 

Nothing to say about the rest of this that I haven't already.

 

 

This one I responded to in the passage.  

[Darthe]

@AJ, Tress, Thanke

 

Is Mynd scum or not?  

 

Am I town or not?

 

If your answers are

 

yes/Idk

 

Yes

 

 

I need you to move your vote to mynd.  Nol is not our lynch today and I am tired of looking at three town on his train for behavior that is really consistent with who he is as a player and with his clear motives on thread all game.  

 

I shouldn't have to argue on his behalf but I think this whole thing is really clear right now and you're not helping by getting sidetracked by that mislynch.  Read the things I am saying to and about Mynd and critically consider them.  I want your votes with mine.

[dawnflower8]

##Vote Lenlo

[Darthe]

I think I'm going to end up shouting at you eventually.

[Nolder]

 

 

I'm already working on Avengers 2: Age of Ultron.  Since MyndJack is now defunct, I'll have to beg his Modness Verbal the High Exalted One to let me run it here. Thanks though.  I had so much fun modding that game.  I just wished that Deadpool got more play in that game.  I loved writing the Deadpool scenes.

Awesome. Put me on auto sign up when that happens.

 

Cool cool.

 

I'm also doing a Heroes Reborn game soon.  I was so disgusted with that show and how they messed it up from how cool it used to be, I thought I'd never do another Heroes game, but I think I can take a lot of creative liberties now and make it awesome. 

 

Never watched Heroes.

[Nolder]

 

 

I think he hasn't claimed his fellow Egyptian yet because he is probably worried that the person would be a more consensus town read to the other players over him. I really don't see the advantages of not claiming at this point and the fact that he has sort of avoided it until being forced to should say something.

 

You can speculate all you want but part of being on a team is having some give and take with your partner.

I screwed up with Jack (although he deserved it) I don't want to be known as the jerk who just does whatever they want on teams. Instead of grilling me about a minor detail maybe you could have some patience and wait until easter weekend is over so everyone can check in.

 

What minor detail do you think I am grilling you over?

Who my teammate is. I told you I've asked on QT whether they'd like to claim and they can clearly read the thread if you think I'm lying about that.

I'm waiting for a response so why don't you take a chill pill? I'm sure you'll have an answer one way or another by tomorrow.

[Nolder]

I think I'm going to end up shouting at you eventually.

 

 

[amegakure]

the lead singer of that band is a child rapist... 

[Kaylee]

Official Vote Count

 

Dice (1/7): Lewis

Nolder (3/7): Tress, AJ, Thane

Lewis (3/7): Nolder, Dice, Darthe

Leno (1/7): Dawn

 

Not Voting (4/12): Despo, TG, Krak, Leno

 

 

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140422T19&p0=76

[Kaylee]

Happy Easter and good night!

[amegakure]

night kaylee!

[Thane Vakarian]

@Darthe: so, you would think that Mynd is the better choice, since he's pushing for Nolder and dice... and here you are, equal counts on Nolder and Mynd, pushing for Mynd.... Either you are thoroughly convinced that Mynd is scum and nolder is town, or you want to lynch Mynd to protect Nolder (fellow scum)

 

For me, you're trying a bit too hard to get Mynd lynched. This makes me a tad suspicious about you, so you know. Should Mynd flip town, then you'd be higher up my scum reads.....

[Nolder]

You may be suspicious of Darthe but go back and read some of my replies to Mynd.

It still doesn't make sense that he thinks Darthe and I are scum...and yet he's voting Dice.

Actions are not matching words. Come on it couldn't be any more obvious if he outright said he was scum.

[Nolder]

the lead singer of that band is a child rapist... 

Yeah I read about that a couple months ago or something.

[Thane Vakarian]

so, who other than Lewis would you see as scum?

[hazelkrs1]

So, I've decided to ##Vote Nolder.

 

Imo, there's really no other lynch worth considering. Nolder's flip can potentially break this game WIDE open. If he flips scum, then that will give so much info on others it's insane. To start off with, I'd pretty much be ready to put AJ in my LOCK CLEAR category. He's pointed out a lot of the same things I have seen regarding Nol, and when AJ is town we seem to mindmeld a lot, and has consistently applied pressure to Nol, doesn't look even close to a bus move. Nol flipping scum would also give more evidence for Lewis/Mynd being scum imo, since he talks over and over about how scummy Nol is, yet isn't voting Nol and is the SOLE vote on Dice. Yikes. A scumflip on Nol and Mynd would pretty much make Dice LOCK CLEAR as well, since I don't see Mynd as scum trying to sacrifice TWO teammates to make himself look better.

 

If Nol flips town, then Darthe is LOCK CLEAR, since it would make no sense at all for Darthe to hard defend a townie in these circumstances. Mynd would still look bad, mebbe even worse if Dice was town in fact. A townflip on Nol would also pretty much CONFIRM that the other partner in their QT was scum, since they apparently haven't given the okay for Nol to reveal themselves on thread, and if they let Nol get lynched without trying to defend them it would make them look AWFUL. This is sort of assuming some kind of uniform distribution of scum, but even if it's random imo it would still look terrible that they didn't want to be outed on thread.

 

It's not often that someone's flip can give this much info. This is who we're lynching today.

 

Darthe, I too see Lewis as really dirty looking, and if he's now trying to placate you after earlier talking about you "diarrheaing" across the thread, I find that even more incriminating. However, look at how much Mynd is posturing regarding the Nolder lynch. Doesn't it fit scum distancing from a teammate to a T? Even if Nol flips town, Lewis will still have stuff to answer for, only we'll have that much more info on everyone else. Don't see any big drawbacks here.

[dicetosser1]

##Vote Lenlo

 

why?

 

thoughts on the other trains?

[hazelkrs1]

 

I always considered that an inactive scum is better than an active one.  An inactive townie is just dead weight, we don't need them to get a majority.  Inactive scum are much more detrimental to the mafia team than town.  They can't coordinate their moves and in some games, have even ruined the mafia's gambit by not paying attention.

Here's the scenario I always consider when it comes to inactives.

It's endgame. Everyone is dead except two townies and 1 scum.

The scum and one townie have been active and one townie hasn't been but he's around now.

The decision rests with our active townie, does he trust the guy who's been active and go for the mysterious man behind door number 1...or does he side with the guy he knows nothing about and kill the active guy.

 

Let's examine those choices.

If he lynches the scum...aren't we going to feel cheated?

The scum put in a lot of work to stay active and pretend to scumhunt, to maneuver himself alive to endgame.

And what beat him and his team? The flip of a coin essentially. It's not based on logic or reason most of the time when this scenario pops up it's based on last minute tells, hints of nervousness or over defensiveness. Things that are really easy to misread. If all three were active they'd be looking at each others voting records and what they said and who did what but because that info isn't available they fall back on D1 type of scumhunting which for most people is very unreliable.

 

Let's flip it now.

He lynches the townie and scum win.

Well crap that sucks too doesn't it? Who's to say if that townie hadn't been active and towntelling that the other guy wouldn't have realized the scum was scum? By endgame unless a scum has played an excellent game they've showed their ass in at least one way or another so if you're looking at voting records and whatnot you can usually catch them if you're perceptive.

 

But let's flip the whole scenario and make the scummer inactive, does that really change anything? When someone who's been barely playing wins does anyone feel satisfied? Or likewise when he loses does it feel like an accomplishment, to beat a player who wasn't really playing? No it's lame all in all and most mafia players are going to be upset with how that game ends even if they're nice enough people not to gripe about it afterwards.

 

This is what can happen when you let inactives slide to the endgame but what that also does is leave a door open to use inactivity as a tactic. I don't blame mafia for using this tactic. The less mafia says the better oftentimes. It's townies job to keep everyone talking and to keep poking and prodding and getting everyone's position on the game. If you let people slide mafia WILL take advantage of it.

 

Hell just lazy people will. Then you have games like we see often now with 3-4 people inactive or barely active, 2-3 replacements, etc. And no one even considers how much extra work that puts on the mod and how rude it is to everyone. I know we're all friends, generally speaking, but we let each other get away with being very disrespectful to each other in that way. Excuse the language but if I called someone a bitch or an asshole in a serious manner everyone would freak out and tell me off but no one says anything to someone who chronically joins games and always has a very low post count. I'm not sure if you guys just don't understand how rude that really is or what but maybe you can take a second to think about how you feel as a mod when you have to replace someone you were counting on to play or how you feel as mafia when your teammate with an important role is just no where to be found. What about when you finally do lynch someone for inactivity and it was the cop or doc? Don't you guys ever feel cheated by this stuff? I know I do.

 

Stop letting these people go to end game. Stop rewarding the lazy players.

 

I had more to say but it got way too preachy.

But anyway that's my spiel on inactives more or less.

 

 

Posts eight paragraphs about his meta that most already know.

 

Doesn't spend a single word talking about anything that is relevant to THIS game.

 

[Nolder]

Posts eight paragraphs about his meta that most already know.

 

Doesn't spend a single word talking about anything that is relevant to THIS game.

I was explaining my position to Mynd, who hasn't been around since I've taken a hard stance on the issue.

 

Don't be a jerk in the pursuit of a lynch.

[Nolder]

so, who other than Lewis would you see as scum?

I'm not sure anymore.

I kind of turned my game upside down when I decided to believe Darthe was town.

If there's scum on multiple teams it could be almost anyone.

I think my next best guess after Mynd would be AJ.

He's coming at me with the same arguments, just echoing Mynd really.