"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[WWWwombat]

 

 

 

I'm still not sure I believe that women, as a whole, get catcalled on a regular basis.

The only people I ever hear say this are feminists. I'll take it at face value I guess but it's hard to imagine this happens at all let alone so often.

 

When you say things like this it makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously when you actually have a point.

 

It wasn't a tactful way to say it but it was honest.

Imagine for a moment the amount of instances this is "reported" on the internet.

Now realize that these women are talking about your father, your brothers, your uncles, your grandparents, your cousins, your friends, your friends relatives. Do you think men as a whole are so classless that this happens on a daily basis to so many women? I'm sure it does happen but the amount that people says it does is hard to believe especially since public transport (where it seems to "happen" the most) is what I generally use to get around and have since my early teen years. I've never seen a woman catcalled or harassed. Actually the only time I've ever seen anyone harassed was when me and a friend of mine (a guy) were walking to a store and a couple guys rode buy and honked their horns at us and called us some names. But like I said I'm willing to just accept it at face value for the sake of discussion. If that makes it harder for you to take me seriously that's ok with me.

 

 

 

You live in a relatively nice area iirc. I've never personally seen that sort of thing either, but I've heard reliable accounts of it quite often. For instance, once some idiot groped one of my brother's female friends.

 

 

The fact is that women still have remarkably little power in Western society.

I disagree. They may not hold positions of power (because they don't seek them) but the influence of women as a demographic is tremendous.

They don't need to actually hold power to get what they want in most cases. A perfect example of this is the right to vote. Women were granted that right without the responsibility of defending the nation (US) when called upon.

 

There are plenty of women who do seek positions of power. Their success is largely dependent on the area of industry/government.

 

As for influence, it is indeed important, but in most cases, it's a poor second to authority.

 

And the right to vote was never contingent on military service. It is a right granted to all citizens, including the handicapped, conscientous objectors, and plenty of others who will never serve in the military. It should never have been denied to women in the first place.

[michellem]

About the "casual" sexual harrassment, I can only share my own experiences. Now, I'm not a very pretty or hot and sexy girl. I'm not ugly, but I'm not exactly a stunning beauty men drool after either I do not have a sexy body; I'm slightly overweight, I have small boobs and a flat ass, lol. I don't dress very sexy either; it's usually long thick leggings, loose dresses or long-sleeved shirts. If I have a "short" (mid-thigh) skirt, I have thick leggings underneath. I never have shirts with deep cleavage. Halloween is probably the sexiest I've dressed in a very long time, and I had a floor lenght skirt and long-sleeved blouse, but I was wearing a corset and that adds an instant sexy-touch no matter how the rest of my clothes are.

 

I don't go out at the weekends anymore. If I go to visit friend's houses, I make sure to go home early enough before people start going out if I'm alone. Because after a certain time at night, I can't sit alone and in peace on the bus. There's always some guy thinking to try his luck. In the area I live in, most of the men trying are in their 40s-50s. It's only if I go into the capital that I get bothered by younger men (I'm 25 myself). I also never go out if my husband isn't home to come meet me at the bus stop and walk me home. There's been three rapes and a dozen attempted rapes in our street since we moved in three years ago. We live in a relativly small city, about 60.000 all together, and our street shouldn't be an unsafe one; it stretches between two main roads and it's well lit. But still this happens. And let's not even talk about going out to a pub or bar. If I go, I go with my husband, and I still get groped or touched in ways that make me uncomfortable. I might just be very sensitive, but I don't think it's ok when a person I have never spoken a word to, stands so close beside me at the bar that we're touching from ancle to shoulder, and then puts an arm around my shoulders. It's not ok and it makes me very uncomfortable.

 

I don't want this attention, I'm happily married. I'm not inviting it as far as I can understand; I don't dress provocative and when I'm out in public alone, I try to be as invisible as possible, since I also have a bit of social anxiety. I don't get eye contact with people, I look down at the ground when I walk, when I take the bus I usually have a book, my kindle or my phone that I stare at. I probably look like the least tempting persone in the world, and yet these things would happen. It doesn't now, because like I said, I don't put myself in the situations where I know it will happen.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

If you've seriously never seen a woman harassed in even a fairly low key way then you live in a very, very nice part of the world. I live in London, one of the biggest cities in one of the most western countries in the world, and I have seen women get stared at, approached, spoken to, cat called, and have personally intervened when one has been attacked in the street. So to say it just doesn't happen, or doesn't happen often... I just don't know what world you live in. It's a simple fact that women are at somewhat of a disadvantage in these matters- if a single woman made inappropriate motions toward me in the street, I wouldn't be very intimidated. If I, on the other hand, did so toward a lone woman, I can very well imagine that she would be.

[Ryrin]

I agree with Kwom that equality for all is the goal.  

 

However, ignoring reality will not facilitate change and women have been the targets of oppression and abuse throughout the world, including London and California.   

 

I have a friend (female) that has worked as a director of human resources for very large companies and handles the west coast.  I live in California.  She has told me stories that curl my toes.  The most recent one was how male managers wanted to advise a very physically attractive female employee to not dress "suggestively" because she just might one day and that would then distract the male employees.

 

To recognize that we need to work on equality for all is one thing, to deny reality is another.

[Ryrin]

What I have found unjustifiable is the denial/dismissal of suffering at whatever level it occurs. There is plenty of available evidence to document the extent of this problem should one choose to look.

I would think, that statistically speaking, there are women here who have been subjected to such exploitation, molestation and sexual assault simply because they were born female.

It is difficult for me to conceptualize how it must feel to read statements negating and trivializing such abuse simply because it has not occurred within one's own limited sphere of existence.

[Elgee]

It is difficult for me to conceptualize how it must feel to read statements negating and trivializing such abuse simply because it has not occurred within one's own limited sphere of existence.

 

It's difficult to believe, but unfortunately it exists. It's exactly the same as people who claim slaves weren't mistreated (or that slavery wasn't evil, to begin with), that the Nazis never murdered or experimented on Jewish or disabled people, that the earth isn't round ... there's no limit to stupidity.

 

But back on topic.

 

I'm not sure I can call myself a feminist. I believe that all people should be allowed the chance to do what they are capable of, without qualifiers.  (Obviously within the law and without harming innocents - we're talking living and studying and working opportunities, etc, here, not someone's right to abuse puppies or whatever.) Someone shouldn't get a study opportunity or a job just because they're female, or black, or disabled, or whatever "previously disadvantaged group" you can think of. Further, they shouldn't NOT get that opportunity because they're female, or black, or white, or asian, or disabled, or gay, or have "too many" piercings or tattoos, or whatever prejudice you can think of.

 

The ONLY thing that should count is whether or not that person is qualified to and can do the job. Period.

 

I dream of a time in the future when the only thought on anyone's mind will be whether or not person X can do the thing. Person X's gender, colour, race, sexual orientation, whatever, should never even be thought of. It shouldn't enter anyone's mind that it could have any possible bearing on the matter.

[michellem]

I think we will get there eventually; just look at the progress the world has made in the last 100 years!

[Ryrin]

While I too advocate for the rights and freedoms of all, I still think of myself as a feminist.  IMO, to effect change, there are times when the focus must be directed to a particular group/issue.  For example, there are people who work on behalf of the disabled.  Some may direct their efforts to accessibility for the physically challenged while others may work on employment opportunities for the hearing impaired.  

 

I see feminism the same way, targeting one suffering group to effect change.  

 

Feminism is not about expanding women's rights at the expense of men's rights.  It's about equality and being free from gender related restrictions, stereotyping and abuse for all people.

[michellem]

Well said Ryrin :)

[MattheHat]

lol.. you do realize that the text you posted in the OP is only halfways true in most cases? its just yet another exploitation of stereotypes... =-)

[MattheHat]

I want yall to know im definetly not a sexist. Quite the contrary im happy to see women getting the rights that were for so long kept from them Before I elaborate could someone please tell me if this discussion is about the US, or the rest of the 'western' (modern) world included? Or the whole world?

[Ryrin]

Hey, Mat!!! You can talk about anywhere in the world.

[MattheHat]

ok

cos from what has been discussed so far i noticed only USA has been included really... im not pretending to be a big traveller but ive been around a bit (except the US), and about 95% of the girls/women i know have a passionate hate against Maths or anything techy lol. a quick search in wikipedia will bring many sites that would contradict this fact but if you look a bit it all seems to come out as studies from the US... I repeat that I dont know anything about the situation in North America but I can quite safely say that the OP does not include the european countries such as Norway, German, Spain etc

[Ryrin]

Ok, Mat. I mentioned this which is worldwide:

 

 

Education, Health Care Denied.

 

The “State of World Population Report 2000” said girls and women the world over are still routinely denied access to education and health care — including control over their reproductive activity — and to equal pay and legal rights.

 

The report by the U.N. Population Fund said discrimination and violence against women “remain firmly rooted in cultures around the world,” stopping many from reaching their full potential.

 

 

The report added that at least one in three women has been beaten, coerced into sex, or abused in some way. One in four is abused during pregnancy.

 

 

 

I'm not exactly sure where you are going with "math" other than math based careers tend to pay more?

 

When research is conducted on rate of pay, they do not compare a male architectural engineer with a female kindergarten teacher or a female physician to a male janitor. They compare the rate of pay between a male and female in the same occupation with equivalent education and experience.

 

Lol. By the way, I hate math and I am a social worker. I went into this career knowing full well the average salary.

[Sunrise Lord]

I think he meant that math in general is a subject/field that is predominantly male. And which most women have little liking for.

[Daruya]

I never liked math in school, never thought I was good at it.  When I started working where I work now in the clerical field, I realized I'd never make decent money.  So, I went back to school, told myself, "I'll get this or die trying!" (wrt math) and ended up with an engineering degree.  

 

Of course, I grew up hearing "boys are better at math and science, girls are better at english and history" (not from my parents, though; my dad told me I could do/be anything I wanted, even though he does joke with me sometimes about being a "dumb ole' girl" - and no he doesn't mean it one IOTA!).  Anyway, I believed it for awhile and then decided to try to prove that I could do it.  And I did.  Do I make what male counterparts do, salary-wise?  Without having access to pay records I don't know, but I believe I do for the most part.  That said, I do know I've missed out on opportunities that were given to males, but they were either minorities or retired military with a master's degree.  Master's degree beat out on-the-job experience in those cases . . .  Hubby told me tonight I should go back to school . . .

[Brandie]

I personally love math, mainly algebra. I've always excelled at math and science because it just makes sense to me. Unfortunately, I didn't really pursue this interest but I still have time. I've been a stay at home mom for almost 4 years now, and I don't regret that decision one bit. My husband makes more money that I was able to so it made sense. I was brought up in a home where my step-dad was a stay at home dad so gender roles have little meaning to me. Eventually I will pursue a career in something I'm interested in, I've been trying to figure out what to go back to school for and something sciency sounds good to me!

 

As far as the argument goes, I think that the modern world has come a long way in recent history. We still have a ways to go but we're moving in the right direction. I think that once we can get past assigning gender and racial roles and simply look at everyone as just people, we'll have made it. It will probably take another generation or so because those running the world right now were born in the 1940s and 50s so their views are different from those of younger generations. We should learn from their experience and value their wisdom but also learn from their mistakes. 

[Ryrin]

I'm not sure that those born in the 40's and 50's would have radically different views from those who are younger today. People born in the 40's and 50's were the one's in the 60's breaking down racial and gender stereotypes.

 

I'm somewhat more pessimistic on changes if we are taking a world view.

[nicana]

I am not a feminist. I do believe that both genders should be treated equally. Do I believe that we are? No I don't. I have experiended catcalling and street harassment since I was 13 years old. The worse part is when it happens at work. Working retail constantly has me working in the public and we get all kinds of nasty talk from some of our male customers. It is pretty bad when you are checking a customer out and they tell you that you smell like strawberries and would like to put whip cream on you and lick it off. At the registers you can't just walk away and you can't be rude either. So I just hurry the person out of the store. Seriously, women should not be put in that position. Also, I worked for this company 5 and a half years as an assistant manager. I have over 20 years of retail experience behind me. I quit working a year ago and came back last March as the head stocker. About a week after I came back I found out that a guy who was hired in a week before I was with no retail experience whatsoever and under me was making 50 cents more an hour than I was. So yes, it still happens here in the states even if you don't see it personally.

[Elgee]

That is absolutely horrendous, nicana! It's absolutely unbelievable that in this day and age, things like this happen on a daily basis, to millions of women.

[Ryrin]

Nic, I'm sorry this kind of stuff has happened and is still going on.

[blank]

Wow Nica, that is horrendous.

 

And you should be feeling some feministy rage about it.

 

Feminism means different things to different people. Like people who label themselves as liberal or religious all have slightly different meanings behind their label. You 

 

If you think that it is outrageous that you get treated differently because you are a woman put on your Feminist pants and tell people about it.

 

It's ridiculous in this age.

[nicana]

A lot of the southern United States is behind when it comes to equality. Be it gender equality or race equality. It is still acceptable for men to rule the roost and their spouses. It's not right but it still happens. As far as work goes. I told my boss exactly what I thought about the guy making more than me and even quit being the head stocker. I let that guy have it. Lol funny that he didn't even last a full month at work. Even funnier watching my boss find his replacement. I refused to take it.

[nicana]

I'm thinking about doing something similar to what NYC women do. Instead of a website I would post their picture on Facebook.

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ce28GKbR0A&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2Ce28GKbR0A

[Ryrin]

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/face-gender-based-discrimination-australian-workplaces

 

The different faces of gender discrimination in Australian workplaces and how national legislation and oversight institutions are contributing to address them in Australia.

 

 

"..highlighted the many ways in which gender-based discrimination manifests in Australian workplaces – and these include:

• - The gender pay gap – women continue to receive 17.5 per cent less in average weekly earnings than men;
• - The gender gap in retirement incomes and savings, which occurs largely as a result of the unpaid care women are required to do for their family or household members, including children, people with a disability, people with a chronic illness or older people due to frailty;
• - And of course, violence against women – particularly domestic and family violence and sexual harassment.

 

The Australian Human Rights Commission received over 1000 complaints under the Sex Discrimination Act in 2011-2012 - of which 15 per cent were complaints of pregnancy discrimination, 25 per cent were sexual harassment and six per cent were complaints of discrimination in relation to family responsibilities.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2012/10/24/gender-pay-gap/1652511/

 

 

AAUW took a closer look at the difference between men and women who enter the same occupation. The apples-to-apples comparison found that women still earned about 7% less than their male counterparts. Give their similarities, this pay gap is unexplained, and gender discrimination is one potential factor, the study says.

 

"A lot of people think that stereotypes are a thing of the past," says Catherine Hill, director of research at AAUW. "But we see that these things are continuing and real."

 

If a young man and woman fresh out of college with the same degree walk into a large firm, typically, the man can get placed in higher-wage jobs than the woman, says Heidi Hartmann, president of the Institute for Women's Policy Research.