"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Tsukibana]

*knuckles forehead* One must step lightly when surrounded by this many Aes Sedai.

 

On the term "Feminist" - like PsychologIST, BiologIST, racIST... is the term itself not doing inherent harm to the cause? The ending "-ist" indicates a focus, an elevation of one specific thing

(race, creed, field of study) above other equally valid options. Not sure what else it can be called, but the thought is there...

Abortion has been beaten with a stick. Shall we move on?

 

"It would be silly to deny that equality-by-the-numbers researchers can deliver figures that could alarm even anAnn Romney. There’s the puny 4.2% of female Fortune 500 CEOs, the mere 23.7% of female state legislators, the paltry 19% of women in Congress. But while “numbers don’t lie,” they can create mirages that convince us we see something we don’t. Take, for example, the JAMA study about the pay gap between male and female doctors. The study seems to capture yet another example of discrimination against women. But because it fails to consider differences in medical specialty or type of workplace, that appearance may well be an illusion. Surgeons and cardiologists, who have long been in the ranks of the top-earning specialties, remain predominantly male. Meanwhile, as women flooded the profession, they disproportionately chose to becomepsychiatrists and pediatricians, specialties that have always been among the least lucrative.

There are reasons for this particular wage gap that are gender-blind. Surgeons need more years of training, perform riskier work (at least that’s how malpractice insurers see it) and put in more unpredictable hours. Unsurprisingly, according to surveys, women who become doctors approach their work differently than men. They spend more time with each patient; when choosing jobs, they are far more likely to cite time for family and flexible hours as “very important” and to prefer limited management responsibilities. Male doctors, on the other hand, are more likely to think about career advancement and income potential.

This hints at the problem with the equality-by-the-numbers approach: it presumes women want absolute parity in all things measurable, and that the average woman wants to work as many hours as the average man, that they want to be CEOs, heads of state, surgeons and Cabinet heads just as much as men do. But a consistent majority of women, including those working full time, say they would prefer to work part time or not at all; among men, the number is 19%. And they’re not just talking; in actual practice, 27% of working women are on the job only part time, compared with 11% of men."

 

Thoughts, women? Do those of you who are feminists truly want to see "numerical equality", which is my first assumption based on how often numbers are cited, or is the goal simply the desire to CHOOSE?

[Ryrin]

This ^ is the reason people need to be able to critically look at research. :)

 

I think more of equal opportunity rather than equal numbers.

[michellem]

Abrortion is kinda beside the original topic, in my opinion.

 

Did anyone read the last link I posted? I think it's a prefect example of why feminism still is needed.

[Tsukibana]

MIsh, the assault on the female marine? Pretty messed up.

I ask if the main issue is anti-female sentiment in the military as a whole, or the mysogenistic crap that specific people put her through?

The codoning behaviour of the commander paints him as a piece of slime, and the rapists should be castrated... but her previous

commands did not have this environment. If feminists wait for NO men to be bastards, they shall be waiting until the sun dies.

[Tsukibana]

No, you meant the girl on the bus. Scary crap...

But again... I get the issues, but here's one - Be a white, geeky kid in the slums of Detroit. Same stuff. Scared, out-numbered, no-one helping you...

granted, the threat of sexual assault is not one that i've ever dealt with, and I'm sure it makes the fear that much stronger... the problem is

not with women, or men, it's with HUMANS.

But I the same way a researcher must focus on one disease, rather than the whole spectrum, it is just easier to narrow down to "women's rights" 

rather than "civil rights" or "human rights".

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

Interesting - Placing him in the unenviable position of letting the woman he loves die, and risking him being a crap parent because he's reminded of how his son killed his wife. I do not envy either of you the situation, and am so glad you lived to see your son grow.

 

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

Whoa! Who said that??

 

Ryrin, I understand the "risk and be able to carry children" argument, but what about my brother's friend. Ate both barrels of a 12-guage, .00 buck, when he found out his wife had THREE abortions during their marriage, simply because she didn't want kids. Not for health reasons, or bad financial situation, or rape, or incest. She just didn't want kids... His note said he was going to find his kids... Yeah, the father, who is

willing to spend the rest of his LIFE helping to guide this new life, the FATHER that might watch his wife DIE giving birth to their son, has no right to try to save that child before it is born??

My husband wasn't "letting" anything happen. He was going to respect my choice. My life, my choice. Had I passed, I can assure you he would have been an excellent father to our youngest son, as he is to our oldest son. He isn't that immature to blame an infant because his mother died in childbirth. I would have never married or had a child with someone that shallow.

 

"Who said that?" You need to read all of the posts. I have no issue with adoption as long as a woman has all options open to her including termination.

 

There is no one to blame for suicide but the person who commits it. Of course there are often extenuating circumstances such as mental

Illness. There were options available other than putting a shotgun under his chin.

 

If one is against abortion, don't have one. It's really simple. However, you don't get to make reproductive choices for other people.

 

 

But couldn't abortion be seen as trying to force death on an innocent human being? Could it be that it's not just a question of a woman's body but also of a child's? Your life, your choice, but it seems to me that abortion is making the child's choice for them. Now that we have the technology, we can see that the child is no 'lump of tissue.' (Ultrasound)

Logic shows us that the child is not 'part of the mother.' So.... please consider the possibility that the children are not being treated fairly. People talk about 'rights of the mother' but I don't think that time, place or development has anything to do with being a person. 

[nicana]

Love this ^. I agree with you 100%.

 

Tal, babies have a much greater chance to be adopted than older children. There are quite a few infertile couples that want a baby and can't have one of their own.

So it is a very good chance they will end up in a good loving home. It is wrong to keep a baby if you don't plan on taking care of them and making them feel loved. That is why adoption is a good alternative.

[WildTaltos]

 

 

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

Interesting - Placing him in the unenviable position of letting the woman he loves die, and risking him being a crap parent because he's reminded of how his son killed his wife. I do not envy either of you the situation, and am so glad you lived to see your son grow.

 

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

Whoa! Who said that??

 

Ryrin, I understand the "risk and be able to carry children" argument, but what about my brother's friend. Ate both barrels of a 12-guage, .00 buck, when he found out his wife had THREE abortions during their marriage, simply because she didn't want kids. Not for health reasons, or bad financial situation, or rape, or incest. She just didn't want kids... His note said he was going to find his kids... Yeah, the father, who is

willing to spend the rest of his LIFE helping to guide this new life, the FATHER that might watch his wife DIE giving birth to their son, has no right to try to save that child before it is born??

My husband wasn't "letting" anything happen. He was going to respect my choice. My life, my choice. Had I passed, I can assure you he would have been an excellent father to our youngest son, as he is to our oldest son. He isn't that immature to blame an infant because his mother died in childbirth. I would have never married or had a child with someone that shallow.

 

"Who said that?" You need to read all of the posts. I have no issue with adoption as long as a woman has all options open to her including termination.

 

There is no one to blame for suicide but the person who commits it. Of course there are often extenuating circumstances such as mental

Illness. There were options available other than putting a shotgun under his chin.

 

If one is against abortion, don't have one. It's really simple. However, you don't get to make reproductive choices for other people.

 

 

But couldn't abortion be seen as trying to force death on an innocent human being? Could it be that it's not just a question of a woman's body but also of a child's? Your life, your choice, but it seems to me that abortion is making the child's choice for them. Now that we have the technology, we can see that the child is no 'lump of tissue.' (Ultrasound)

Logic shows us that the child is not 'part of the mother.' So.... please consider the possibility that the children are not being treated fairly. People talk about 'rights of the mother' but I don't think that time, place or development has anything to do with being a person. 

 

 

whenn a child is born, its not part of mothre anymore, but whenn its in womb its entirely dependnt on mothre for nutrition andd respiration - its esentialy similar to an organ, part of the mothre, and withuot the mother, it will die unles its developpd enuogh at thatt point to be removd safely. think in thatt way warants that mother has some righht to decidde what to do with it becuse its part of her body in that time. but like you said, abortion can be seen as tryin to force death on an inocent human being - just as abortionn can be seen as just geting rid of a lump of fleshh that is potentil future resource and time-burden. key word ther is see - evryone has their own perception, own way of seein things,som arguebly more or less logicall than others, and realy isnt much to say whos ultimately more righht than other.

 

 

Love this ^. I agree with you 100%.

 

Tal, babies have a much greater chance to be adopted than older children. There are quite a few infertile couples that want a baby and can't have one of their own.

So it is a very good chance they will end up in a good loving home. It is wrong to keep a baby if you don't plan on taking care of them and making them feel loved. That is why adoption is a good alternative.

isnt realy question abuot whether its goood alternative or not. its abuot whethre realisticaly anyon who evre conceives whn they didnnt want to goin put potentiall child up for adoption if thhey give birth to it. answr is no, for wahtever reason - somtimes they may think its thir responsbility to raise it evn if they hate it, sometimes becuse they get social benefitts by having kid in house, sometimes they dont know abuot how to put kid up for adoption, sometimes thhey develop som form of attachment for child evn if they at the same time treatt it teribly, etc.. if adoptionn in evry instance isnt viable option becuse parents wont or cant takke it, then i dont see a probllm if parentts just abort faotus if they both in agreement of it, and it shoulldnt be anyone elses busines unlesss they are family.

[Tsukibana]

I thought we were trying to focus on the point of the thread, not abortion.

[Ryrin]

Jak,

 

We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. :) I don't think a fetus that is not viable and cannot live outside of the woman is a "child."

 

Taltos, good post, IMO.

 

Everyone else,

 

I do think the right to choose is a woman's issue but agree with Mish that it could really be a stand alone topic. Since it looks like we are not going to convince each other to change our views regarding choice, should we move on to other women's rights issues?

 

Yes? No?

[michellem]

No, you meant the girl on the bus. Scary crap...

But again... I get the issues, but here's one - Be a white, geeky kid in the slums of Detroit. Same stuff. Scared, out-numbered, no-one helping you...

granted, the threat of sexual assault is not one that i've ever dealt with, and I'm sure it makes the fear that much stronger... the problem is

not with women, or men, it's with HUMANS.

But I the same way a researcher must focus on one disease, rather than the whole spectrum, it is just easier to narrow down to "women's rights" 

rather than "civil rights" or "human rights".

 

I understand, and I'm not saying men are always safe. But, there are way more areas that are unsafe for women. I live in a small town in Norway, about 50.000 people counting the areas outside the city center. This is mainly a quite quiet town. There's a lot of drug related crime, more than anywhere else in the country, but otherwise most of the crimes are people beating up each other outside bards in the weekends. But, last summer, a girl was attacked and attempted raped right underneath my livingroom windows. I live in the middle of the center of town, third story of a building. There was blood stains on the sidewalk after the girl had fell and hit her head. Yes, she managed to get away and not get raped. But this is a street I never felt scared off before. It's very central, well lit, but outside of where people go between the bars. Right next to a main car road. I don't dare go outside our building alone when it's dark anymore.

 

It's about everyone needing to realize that although women have voting rights and whatnot, society still isn't equal, even in the best parts of the world. Norway is a great country; we have very little pverty, equal rights for poor and for rich, free health care for everyone, good roads, bla bla bla. And still there are women who randomly get jumped and assaulted or raped all over the country. Women get raped by their friends if they are overly drunk and might have been a bit flirty at the party. If they fall asleep, they risk being raped. Because they dared drink too much and have fun, so some guy will think because she flirted with him, it's well within his right to have sex with her while she's sleeping. Wifes get raped by husband, except very few call it rape because they are in a sexual relationship after all, he was just a bit rough with her... "Everyone knows when a girls says no, she really means yes, she's just playing hard to get", I heard a guy sneer at his friend once in a bar. I have been hit on in the most bizarre of situations. I'm happily married, and the only people I flirt with are my friends for fun. I'm chubby, I don't look at people when I'm outside because of my anxiety, and yet I seem to attract guys like flies if I dare venture out into a bar with friends (or even with my husband). I've been groped on my chest, my butt and between my legs by random strangers. I've been told that in a few hours I would be doing this or that sexual favour for a guy. I've been trapped against a wall by a guy who thought it was quite alright to corner me in, touch my hair, speak right into my face , barely five centimeters from my mouth. I've had guys sit next to me on a bus with alot of empty seats, "accidentally" leaning their hands on my thigh. Heck, I've had a gynecologist lean his armon my leg when I was in the chair, my legs up in stirrups, while he was showing me something on the ultrasound screen he leaned on my leg with his other arm, his hand resting right over m knee. I don't think any man can understand how helpless and terrified a girl feels in situations like this. And the worst part is, so much is just brushed away by others. "I'm sure the doctor didn't mean it like that". "He was just drunk," "You gotta expect some extra attention when you dye your hair red", "he probably saw you flirting with *gay friend* and thought you were single", and so on. So in other words, to not get into these situations, I will have to stay away from drunk men, stop dressing and having my hair how I like it, and stop having fun with my friends. Or in other words, just stop going outside, because there's always something I do that invites men to give me unwanted attention.

 

Rape doesn't only happen to women. In fact I read a great article the other day, about men being forced to prenetate (aka have sex against their will). I'll see if I can find it again and post it here, because it truly was a great article about the subject, and female-to-male rape isn't talked about enough. But the fact is, when you walk through the streets of Detroit, or a punk guy in Oslo wanders into a chav bar to provoke people on purpose, you are very, very rarely in danger of getting sexually assaulted. I've experienced people trying to beat me up and attack me. I've seen someone pull a knife at a friend of mine. But none of that scares me half as much as the threat of sexual assault.

 

I hope it comes across that I am not saying your fears are not valid. I'm just saying I don't think men can understand how terrifying it is to be a woman, even in the very best parts of the world.

[Tsukibana]

Oh, I definitely do not think that I can understand that fear, and I am deeply sorry that you experienced those things. I am active in charities helping (child) victims of sexual assault, and 

in anti-trafficking work. I see the horror of it every day, and I despise that we do it to each other.

 

But still, Norway's SOCIETY doesn't promote this behaviour. This is the worst of individual men coming out, combined with global cultures that are losing the "evil Western Imperialistic" MORAL imperatives that

have been in place for 1,000 years or so. When you have a society SO focused on humanism, nihilism, and secularism, what do you expect? I fear the issue is not men vs. women. It is moral vs. immoral...

and so long as we tolerate the immoral because of "free speech" and "equal rights", It's just gonna get worse.

[michellem]

Yes, that is a very good.

[michellem]

Here is the article I talked about about male rape:

 

http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/

 

There's some description of assaults, so it's not PG-13.

[michellem]

This is also a great blog post: "Boys will be boys" is no excuse for bad behaviour:

http://www.rolereboot.org/family/details/2012-10-boys-will-be-boys-is-no-excuse-for-bad-behavior

 

A mother realizing she's basically given the "don't get raped"-speech to her toddler.

 

 

I also recommend reading all the things linked in that blog post, I find most of them very interesting.

[Ryrin]

I really dislike that phrase "boys will be boys." Parents with that kind of attitude create abusers/criminals.

[Rekinu Alasayaar]

I will be the FIRST to say that the 'unwanted attention" given to women is so NOT 50/50 in responsibility.

 

Like was stated earlier, I think it is more an issue of immoral/moral that encourages men to be more "forward"(for lack of a better word, though perhaps perverted would work better).  Pornography does NOT help the situation, making scenes and situations seem like they are normal (and wanted attention BY the girls), and then those that watch it get desensitized to that kind of 'watching participation' and they want to 'enact it themselves'. (in addition it is reported that each round of watching and then acting it out gets more and more violent)  There is LOTS of research on the negative effects that pornography is having on people AND even relationships and it is only getting worse as long as people watch it.

 

On to whose fault it is for a tense situation that a girl might be in when a guy comes on too strong, i think it is AT LEAST 75% his fault, and in no way am i saying that it means 25% of it is the girls fault.  SOMETIMES the girl's manner of dress, place she is at, things she says, or does might provoke it, but the male, as the larger (usually) person, and the stronger (again usually) is the culprit.  He is the one forcing himself, taking advantage, using his strength ect.

 

ALSO: THERE IS NO "boys will be boys".  That is BULL CRAP.  THEY can do better than pass their bad behavior off on some lame  "i cant help it, i am a guy" excuse.  Part of the responsability to teach the kit to keep his pants zipped up and his hands in decent places is to the parents.  They WILL learn from their peers, it is a matter of if YOU taught them first/more repeatedly.  LOVING interaction with your SO (hopefully spouse, but that is another topic for a different day) is best experienced by seeing your parents involved.  Dont get too mushy with the kids around, but show them the proper way to treat their mother/husband.  Yelling at your SO will only teach them that yelling is ok, fighing violently (like throwing things or hitting) will teach them that violence is the answer to their frustrations... they get enough of that kind of teaching from TV/movies/video games/their peers, they dont need to learn it in the home.

 

 

I personally have a problem with that one.  it takes a LOT to make me mad, but when i do, boy i just want to pound the CRAP out of something.  I have hidden a pillow in the master bathroom (my daughter collects the pillows in the house and makes pillow forts all day long) and when i am getting close to that point (screaming kids, you know, life happens) I go to the bathroom and pound on it (its less costly than breaking the wall, lol) until I have worked out my issues.  I need to find a better way to vent my anger, but for now, I have chosen to do that until i find something else to ensure that i do NOT hit anyone else while i am mad.  EVERY TIME when i return (3-10 minutes usually) i tell the kids that i was sorry i left, but i was mad, not at them, just mad, and needed to calm down.  We use time out for them for the same thing (yelling screaming, ect)

[WildTaltos]

Oh, I definitely do not think that I can understand that fear, and I am deeply sorry that you experienced those things. I am active in charities helping (child) victims of sexual assault, and 

in anti-trafficking work. I see the horror of it every day, and I despise that we do it to each other.

 

But still, Norway's SOCIETY doesn't promote this behaviour. This is the worst of individual men coming out, combined with global cultures that are losing the "evil Western Imperialistic" MORAL imperatives that

have been in place for 1,000 years or so. When you have a society SO focused on humanism, nihilism, and secularism, what do you expect? I fear the issue is not men vs. women. It is moral vs. immoral...

and so long as we tolerate the immoral because of "free speech" and "equal rights", It's just gonna get worse.

i only have vague idea of what secularism is, and i hav very low opinion of it from whatt i think it is (but agin, what i thinkk it is may not be waht it actualy is but i dont think im wrong) but humanism refers to the philosopphy that humans are valuablle in and of themselves justt becuse they are human and promotess empirical and logicall thought ovre what is consideredd non-rationall/non-empirical. i think thir logic is skewed on a numbre of points but most peoplle who actualy practice this philosophhy are som of the kindestt and most "moral" people i know, sinc they base theiir ethics on all peoplle are valuablle, which is a powerfull notion, and go from there, whethre trying to practic a philosophy of impartiall care or working as sociall activisits. i think i know what you are criticisin about nihilism being immorall, but in my opinion nihilistic behaviours and philosophies in modern society, as well as secularism, is a directt result of 'imperialistic moral imperatives" [which aparently began 1000 yers ago so i can onlly asume thos are defined as medievvall chrsitian superstiotion and abhorence of nature and the human self, which I agree is one of th fuondations of imperialisticc thought] - as othre sociologists have noted and as my own theory wuold agree, christinity and its morals yuo seem to be extoling, in one way or anothre, created deep culturall dissastisfaction and discord with the people and the environmentt due to its vigorous condemnnation of "heathenn" beliefs (which all represennt the natural cultural evolution of human beings in their respective habitats) and human nature itsellf, creating a psychologicall dichotomy of what is physicall, mundane, "lesser" or "unworthy" with waht is suposedly spiritual, religous, exalted, (which in som othre societies, especialy in indigenous societies, ther is no diference between these) which eventualy gave rise to the notion of whatt is "secular" and waht is "religous" in today's modern world, while the psychological and cultural disastisfaction promoted those institutions taht have slowly given rise to nihilism, a skepticism and condemnnation of christian european tradition, and othre things that resullt in immoral behaviour, such as social anomie and estrangment  (what thos institutions are is a diferent discusion but max weber points out one). humanism, wich yuo are caling immoral, could probably be called a result of this phenonmenon as well, a reaction to th historic, frequent, irrational intolerance and persucution of othre humans by the complex yuo are praising. seems all the things you are condemning - immoral behaviour as a result of cultural dissolution atributed to those three aspects - is actualy a result o the thing yuo are praising, and again yuo are atacking othre peoples in implying that aparently the only moral way is to live by th "imperialistic moral imperatives." disolution of the clan, dissolution of the tribe, dissolution of the familly, the basic human social unit, in any society has moer to do with increasin loss of moralls and social stability than givin up a culturall scheme that has actualy helpd along this dissolution.

[WildTaltos]

Here is the article I talked about about male rape:

 

http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/

 

There's some description of assaults, so it's not PG-13.

thiis kind of confuonded me only a little in becuase of the paragaph: 

 

According to the Center for Disease Control’s national survey on sexual violence, more than 5 million men in the United States have been “made to penetrate” someone else in their lifetime, whether by coercion, intimidation, or because they were incapacitated. In a largely overlooked study focusing exclusively on college males, 51.2 percent of participants reported experiencing a least one incident of sexual victimization, including unwanted sexual contact (21.7 percent), sexual coercion (12.4 percent) and rape (17.1 percent).  Of course, most men assume they’ll be ostracized for reporting such emasculating violations, so the real numbers are likely at lot higher.

 

i folowed the link to th study and read a bit into andd so far i havent seen precisly they were ooking at female-on-male rape, seemms it was mostly just sexual assaullt/rape in general (im only two pages in thuogh so might be speking too soon).

 

edit: ok i read the rest of the study and they didd tak into account male-female vs male-male.

 

iv heard some peoplle say that if women want to stop being sexualy-abused/asaulted so much, they need to be more like men. iwhat do people think about that statment?

 

i once read somthing about feministt theory that adresed that statement and the person opinionn was that women shuoldn have to be like men to stop bein abuse, and i tihnk it raises intersting points abuot how people conceive gender in society.

[Rekinu Alasayaar]

*Shrug* i know we see differently on many topics Tal, but IMO a woman is a woman, and a man is a man, you dont have to be a woman to be a good teacher, or be a man to be a good CEO(both gender assumptions in the workforce in the past).  We all have strengths and weaknesses towards ANY JOB one way or another, irregardless of our gender.  I know lots of both genders that are ideal for any number of jobs, be it "cross gender" jobs or not (out of the ordinarily expected, like Librarian/teachers are generally thought of as woman's roles, or miner/hard laborer for men's roles) some are more isolated incidences (i can think of only one woman that would ]actually, HAS done hard laborer, logging) but there are exceptions to the rules).

 

Now, when you say "Be more like men" are you saying they should be more vocal about their needs? Or the roles they choose to fill in the workforce?

 

 

BEYOND the fact, that I dont think that Women wanting to avoid sexual abuse should have to change... again, like i said above, IMO 75+% of the blame is with the male agressors (if not 100%), so it is the MEN we should be educating and changing if we truly wish women to be safe.  (recognizing that you will likely NEVER get rid of all of it, but educating and teaching should [im no psycologist, but seems a reasonable assumption] decrease the quantity, allowing the police more time to deal with the ones that still happen.

[Tsukibana]

Tal, I was not implying CHRISTIAN moral imperatives, I was implying WESTERN moral imperatives. It is Western Thought (Greek Philosophy, for example)

that gives us the first inklings of Equality. It is Western Philosophy (Nietsze (sic), Marx, Descartes, etc) that give us foundation that man is not to be owned,

capable of moral judgement without religion making us, that we can be better than animals, or sinful, fallen men. It is Western Thought that advances

civil rights, places women in schools, and establishes law based on reason, not religion. Yes, there are abuses. They exist everywhere, in every culture -

even "noble savage" cultures that get glorified in our high-tech, corporate world.

But the doesn't negate my belief that the greatest advancements in human rights and dignity have NOT come from Asia or the Middle East, or Africa. They

came from the West.

I understand the idea of wanting to preserve a traditional way of life... but forced child-marriage is a traditional way of life for some... you cannot cherry pick.

Either ALL cultures, regardless of repugnant actions, are allowed to exist, and be protected, and be considered "equal"... Or NONE are.

I say my culture is best - I am biased. However, I do NOT say that my culture should be preserved simply  because it exists. Social Darwinism.

[Tsukibana]

first off, 1000 years gives us the printing press (1041, China) the beginning of making thoughts available to everyone else through the written word....

but here's more

 

 

1000

• Austronesian Expansion's last phase comes to end; every Polynesian and Micronesian island capable of supporting humans is colonized
• All of Earth's landmasses settled by humans (except Antarctica) ; God's command fulfilled?
• Leif Ericson, son of Eric the Red, is the first from the Old World to "discover" America (Nova Scotia)
• Indian mathematician Sridhara recognizes the importance of the zero
• Mention of several abortive attempts to fly or to float in air
• Arabs and Jews become court physicians in Germany

Human population at AD 1000: 200 million

• India Kingdoms = 50 million
• Holy Roman Empire = 35 million
• Byzantine Empire = 20 million
• Viking Kingdoms = 2 million
• Constantinople (Turkey) = 900,000
• Cordova (Spain) = 450,000
• Kaifeng (China) = 400,000
• Angkor (Cambodia) = 200,000
• Kyoto (Japan) = 175,000
• Cairo (Egypt) = 125,000
• Baghdad (Iraq) = 125,000

1000-1350 | Norse repeatedly visit northeastern North America

1016 | Supernova, unnamed, in Chinese records; second closest at about 4000 light-years away

1044 | Chinese recipe for gunpowder

c1050 | Geographer Adam of Bremen believes the Baltic Sea to be an ocean open to the east ; Important astronomic instruments (astrolabes) arrive in Europe from Eastern countries

1054 | Crab supernova, 6500 light-years away ; recorded by Chinese astronomers and Anasazi Amerindians

1054 | Eastern Schism: sepatation of Christendom into two halves, the western Roman Catholic Church and the eastern Orthodox Church

1066 | Battle of Hastings. Stirrup enables William the Conqueror to lead the House of Normandy to conquer the Saxons. William rules 1066 to 1087 as the first of the three Norman Kings

1071 | Constantine the African (c1020-1087) brings Greek medicine to Western World

1080 | Toledan table of positions of stars

1090 | The first water-driven mechanical clock constructed in Peking

1091 | Walcher of Malvern notes eclipse of the moon in Italy

1095 | First Crusade organized to gain control of the Holy Land from the Muslims

1096 | Teaching begins at Oxford University

1098 | Nicholas Prevost of Tours: Antidotarum, a collection of 2650 medical prescriptions from Salerno

c1100 | Decline of Islamic science begins ; Horizontal loom brought into Europe by the Arabs ; Mayan civilization in Central America in decline toward collapse ;

1105 | Europeans capture Toledo and its library; First table fork introduced into use in Italy

1119 | Bologna University founded

1125 | Alexander Neckam: De utensilibus (earliest account of a mariner's compass)

c1150 | Chinese seaman and caravan leaders use crude magnetic compasses for navigation ; Medical faculty at Bologna University

1151 | Civitas Hippocratica founded by 20 Salerno physicians

1154 | Mohammed al-Idrisi: Geography published at Palermo

1194 | Chichen Itza, the great Mayan City in Mexico is abandoned

1202 | Knowledge of Arabic Numerals and "Zero" reach Europe

1215 | Magna Carta signed by King John and rebelling nobles of England at Runnymede

1217 | Cambridge University founded

c1217 | Ghengis Khan conquers Persia

c1250 | Baltic traders improve ship designs

1251 | Crusaders introduce the decimal number system into Europe; but it is not widely adopted

1266 | Marco Polo's first visit to Court of Kublia Khan in China

1298 | Scottish forces of William Wallace (Braveheart) defeated by English with long bows at Battle of Falkirk

c1300| In Europe, armored knights recognized as nobility; 1st cannon smash castles

1300-1500 | Little Ice Age cools North Atlantic; Norse colony in Greenland disappears mysteriously

1327 | Aztec Empire arises in Central America; builds capital, Tenochtitlan (modern Mexico City), an architectural marvel of brick houses, palaces, canals, aqueducts and pyramids.

c1332 | Starvation in China leads to outbreak of Bubonic Plague which spreads westward

1334 | Bubonic "Black" Plague, transmitted by fleas from rats, breaks out in Constantinople and spreads into Europe. In 20 years it will have killed up to three quarters of the populations in Europe and Asia. Crusaders and those returning from China assisted in carrying the decease back to Europe.

1348 | Black plague reaches its zenith in Europe, halves population in 100 years

1350 | Human population: 300 million

1362 | English is language of the English Courts, while French is used in legal documents

1364 | Gunpowder introduced into Europe and heavy firearms (cannons) come into use. Gunpowder will be the only explosive in wide use until the mid-1800s, when it was replaced by nitroglycerine based explosives.

1368 | Fall of Kahn Dynasty in China; Ming Dynasty begins in China - Mongol rule ends

c1370 | Great "Ming" Wall of China comes into being with new construction and rebuilding of the "Ch'in" and "Han" Walls, extending 4500 miles from the Korean border into the western Gobi Desert

1377 | First reference to use of Playing Cards

1378-1417 | The Great Schism or Schism of the West - a division and disagreement within the Roman Catholic Church as to which Pope was valid and where the "Seat" of the Church was located, Rome or Avignon, France

1386 | Heidelburg University founded; plays a leading part in the coming era of humanism and reformation and the conflict between Lutheranism and Calvinism in the 15th and 16th centuries. A few months after the proclamation of the 95 theses, in April 1518, Martin Luther was received in Heidelberg, with high honours where he defended the theses.

1389 | Ottoman Turks under Murad I bring an end to Serb Empire at Battle of Kosovo on June 15

c1395 | Knitting

c1400 | Little Ice Age freezes Europe in the 1400s and kills off Viking settlements in Greenland.

1415 | Longbow allows English Henry V to defeat French at Battle of Agincourt, Hundred Years War

c1420 | Numeral "Zero" comes into use in Europe

1430 | Prince Henry of Portugal (1394-1460) active in supporting development of navigational skills and reconnaissance of West African coast

1441 | Portuguese navigators find Africans near Cape Blanc, western Africa, and start slave trade again

1447 | Founding of Palermo University

1453 | The "Hundred Years War" (1337-1453) between England and France comes to an end

1457 | Printing press in western Europe: Gutenburg prints Psalter with moveable type in Germany.

1477 | Ptolemy's Geographica published in Italian; among first printed books after Bible; contained maps with NS/EW coordinates

1482 | Europe has 110+ printers; Aldus of Venice creates pocket classics.

1483 | Leonardo di Vinci makes first known design for a heliocopter, along with other designs for various flying machines. Lack of a sufficient source of power made them impractical.

1492 | European explorers encounter Native Americans - first American settlement established, in the West Indies

1498 | European explorers encounter South Africans - Portuguese arrive in the Moluccas and truncate Indonesia's separate train of developments

1499 | Amerigo Vespucci and Alonso de Ojeda leave Spain on voyage of discovery to S. America

c1500 | Hieronymus Brunschwig: "Liber de arti distillandi," the first herbal medicine | Pedro Alvarez Cabral (1468-1526) discovers Brazil, claiming it for Portuga | Juan de la Cosa's map of the New World (part of his Mappa Mundi | De Ojeda and Vespucci return from their voyage during which they discovered the mouth of the Amazon River | Portuguese navigator Bartolomeo Diaz drowns near Cape of Good Hope (b. 1450) | Vicente Yaez Pinzan lands on Brazilian coast at Cape Santo Agostinho | First commercial colleges founded in Venice

c1500 | Western Europeans come into direct contact with peoples of the Americas for the first time. Native Americans killed mostly (up to 99%) by epidemics for which they have no immunity. Decreased immunity due to lack of domestication of large mammals, since their ancestors drove them to extinction 13,000 years ago.

1502 | Columbus made 4th and last voyage to Caribbean; still persuaded he had reached Asia (later, Columbus arrested, put in irons, brought to Spain, and rehabilitated?)

1502 | Spanish begin importing African slaves into New Spain

1507 | Martin Waldseemuller map published with new world identified as "America," after Amerigo Vespucci

1508 | European settlers arrive on American mainland, at the Isthmus of Panama

1511 | European explorers encounter Austronesians - Portuguese arrive in the Moluccas and truncate Indonesia's separate train of developments

1513 | Vasco Balboa sighted Pacific Ocean around Panama

1516 | Spanish Peter Martyr published De Orbe Novo (Of the New World), on discoveries of Spanish, Portuguese and English in western Atlantic

1517 | Protestant Reformation begins when monk Martin Luther begins protests against Catholic Church; nails his 95 thesis list on the door of Wittenburg Cathedral; protest quickly spread throughout Northern/Central Europe, will flower into a schism that fractures the Christain World

1519-23 | Spaniard Ferdinand Magellan sailed from Spain around S. America's Cape Horn into Pacific; killed in Philippines;Vittoria completed first circumnavigation and returned to Spain

1519-1521 | Conquest of Aztec empire by Spain

• 1521 Spanish conquistidor Hernando Cortez besieges Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) with the last recorded use of a "trebuchet" siege engine and subjugates Aztec Empire in Central Mexico, which is soon ravaged by European intrusion and disease

1532-1533 | Conquest of Inca empire by Spain

• 1533 Pizarro Kills Inca Chief - Spanish governor, Francisco Pizarro, killed the Inca Indian Chief Atahualpa. Atahualpa was executed, despite the fact that his people had paid Pizarro a $15 million ransom for his freedom.

1534 | England Breaks With Church in Rome - After the Church of Rome canceled his annulment to Catherine, and had Henry VIII excommunicated for marrying Anne Boylen, Henry breaks with Rome. He has the parliament pass the Act of Supremacy which states that the King is the supreme head of the English church, and he is the one to appoint all clergy. Henry goes on to break up England monstaries. This results in unforseen economic consequences with more land is enclosed and less common land for peasants to graze their animals.

1543 | Nikolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) defies church doctrine by publishing his theory of a sun centered universe in De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, On the revolutions of heavenly bodies (1543) -- diagram of Copernicus's solar system

c1550 | The work of Copernicus ushers in the modern scientific revolution(?) in Europe: the systematic, collaborative study of nature.

1572 | Supernova observed by Tycho Brahe

c1578 | Population of China reaches 60 million

1582 | Russia, a small Slavic state centered on Moscow, begins its expansion beyond the Ural Mountains, swallowing up dozens of non-Slavic peoples

1588 | British Empire arises. Battle of the English Channel. Spanish Armada defeated. Seat of Empire moved from Madrid to London

c1592 | Compound microscope developed by Zacherias Jansson of Denmark which lead to study of microorganisms

c1594 | Principles of Algebra developed by mathematician Francios Viete of France

c1600 | Tobacco and coffee consumption skyrockets in Europe.

1604 | Supernova recorded by Johannes Kepler, the last such event observed in our galaxy. He wrote about the New Star of 1604, now usually called 'Kepler's supernova', rejecting numerous explanations, and remarking at one point that of course this star could just be a special creation 'but before we come to (that) I think we should try everything else' (On the New Star, De stella nova, Prague, 1606).

1608 | Lippershey invents telescope; Galileo Galilei makes astronomical observations.

1609 | Johannes Kepler shows that a planet moves round the Sun in an elliptical orbit which has the Sun in one of its two foci. He also showed that a line joining the planet to the Sun sweeps out equal areas in equal times as the planet describes its orbit. Both these laws were first formulated for the planet Mars, and published in Astronomia Nova (1609) (Kepler's elliptical orbit for Mars) Kepler's third law, that the squares of the periods of planets are proportional to the cubes of the mean radii of their orbits, appeared in Harmonice mundi (1619) and, perhaps surprisingly in view of the above comments, was widely accepted right from the time of its publication.

1611 | Authorized King James Version of the Bible produced under reign of King James of England

1630 | The first Slide Rule calculators are developed independently by William Aughtred and Edmund Wingate, based on the principle of Logarithm's created by Edmund Gunter in 1620

c1635 | Pope Clement VIII approves the drinking of coffee, previously considered a heathen's drink

1648 | Peace of Westphalia established, ending the Thirty Years war, involving many European countries, including Germany, the Hapsburg Empire, France, Sweden, Bohemia, and Denmark; First time that a European community of sovereign states was established. And it was only possible because all of its members recognized each other as having equal legal standing, and guaranteed each other their independence. They had to recognize their international legal treaties as binding, if they wanted to be an international community of law.

1652 | European settlers arrive at Cape of Good Hope, south Africa

1653 | Taj Mahal completed after 22 years of construction, at a cost of $700 million in today's money

1660 | Frederick de Whit's world atlas

1666 | First English language newspaper is published in London

c1668 | Coffee introduced into North America, where it becomes popular after the Boston Tea Party, when the drinking of tea became unfashionable.

1690 | First newspaper in the United States is published in Boston

1700-2000 | Golden Age of Invention. Development of the locomotive, car, radio, television, atomics, rocketry, genetics, the computer, and telecommunication.

 

 

 

As for getting my facts straight... Sorry I didn't make it clear enough, but that doesn't say they are wrong.

 

Nietszche might be the father of nihilism, which I dislike, but that does not negate the advancements in what men can be. I can approve of some of his work, without approving of what the work led to... (I approve of Jesus, but not the Crusades - Am I a hypocrite for that, too??)

 

No reason for you to react, huh? Is a petition re-acting? Why do you give a crap about woman's rights? You aren't a woman, why react...

*deep breath*

I am seriously trying not to take what you say personally, but it's kind of hard not to when I am being called an "arrogant, western, busy-body egoist". You disagree with me... cool. I think that you despising the culture that allows you to disagree with me, or with your king, or to actually live your life how you

choose, to be crap. But you CAN disagree with me. And I will NOT explain why I am an imperialist... but let it be said that if my Imperialistic Nation (along with

half the West) didn't care about Human Rights, the Middle East would be a sheet of glass; Korea, Germany, Japan, Indonesia, (anywhere with any kind of

armed conflict that interfered with "our agenda") would all be under protectorate governments, Islam would be banned... Not to mention the fact that us

"Western Imperialists" are the only things stopping you from saying Salat five times a day and putting "your woman" in a Burkha!! Hate what gives you the

freedom to hate, it's cool, and we are used to it.

[WildTaltos]

*Shrug* i know we see differently on many topics Tal, but IMO a woman is a woman, and a man is a man, you dont have to be a woman to be a good teacher, or be a man to be a good CEO(both gender assumptions in the workforce in the past).  We all have strengths and weaknesses towards ANY JOB one way or another, irregardless of our gender.  I know lots of both genders that are ideal for any number of jobs, be it "cross gender" jobs or not (out of the ordinarily expected, like Librarian/teachers are generally thought of as woman's roles, or miner/hard laborer for men's roles) some are more isolated incidences (i can think of only one woman that would ]actually, HAS done hard laborer, logging) but there are exceptions to the rules).

 

Now, when you say "Be more like men" are you saying they should be more vocal about their needs? Or the roles they choose to fill in the workforce?

 

 

BEYOND the fact, that I dont think that Women wanting to avoid sexual abuse should have to change... again, like i said above, IMO 75+% of the blame is with the male agressors (if not 100%), so it is the MEN we should be educating and changing if we truly wish women to be safe.  (recognizing that you will likely NEVER get rid of all of it, but educating and teaching should [im no psycologist, but seems a reasonable assumption] decrease the quantity, allowing the police more time to deal with the ones that still happen.

thinkk that was part of somthing to consider withh orginal question, what does it meann to be a man and waht does it mean for somone say to woman hav to be moer like a man thereby and is it right to say that. some of th peoplle ive heard say the statment explaind it by smoething like "women shuold stop wearin 'sluty' clothes and make-up, etc." and othres have said womenn need tio adopt more of the mannerisms of a man if wannt to be viewed withh mor respect, which i gues esentialy equates to saying the onlly way to get respectt is act in wahtevre qualities aer asociated with masculinity in the society in question. i thought it raisess interesting questions becuse makes yuo consider how much of what we considere man or woman is inherant or learned; my sister, for examplle, acts very "manly" - thuogh i wuld just call it strong - but is it result of her experiennce which promotted her to act that way or is somthing biological abuot her that makes her bit differrent from what might be called typical woman? just makes think about that.

[Elgee]

I've deleted several posts by 1 member here (and sorry for editing your last post, Tsuki - nothing wrong with what YOU posted, I just deleted the other member's post which you quoted0.

 

I wish to remind everyone that it's fine to disagree with what someone else has said, but please do so in a civilised matter. That means no personally attacking the other poster, no name calling, no flaming. Reread the WT/W 101 sticky, if you've forgotten what our rules are.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

 

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

Interesting - Placing him in the unenviable position of letting the woman he loves die, and risking him being a crap parent because he's reminded of how his son killed his wife. I do not envy either of you the situation, and am so glad you lived to see your son grow.

 

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

Whoa! Who said that??

 

Ryrin, I understand the "risk and be able to carry children" argument, but what about my brother's friend. Ate both barrels of a 12-guage, .00 buck, when he found out his wife had THREE abortions during their marriage, simply because she didn't want kids. Not for health reasons, or bad financial situation, or rape, or incest. She just didn't want kids... His note said he was going to find his kids... Yeah, the father, who is

willing to spend the rest of his LIFE helping to guide this new life, the FATHER that might watch his wife DIE giving birth to their son, has no right to try to save that child before it is born??

My husband wasn't "letting" anything happen. He was going to respect my choice. My life, my choice. Had I passed, I can assure you he would have been an excellent father to our youngest son, as he is to our oldest son. He isn't that immature to blame an infant because his mother died in childbirth. I would have never married or had a child with someone that shallow.

 

"Who said that?" You need to read all of the posts. I have no issue with adoption as long as a woman has all options open to her including termination.

 

There is no one to blame for suicide but the person who commits it. Of course there are often extenuating circumstances such as mental

Illness. There were options available other than putting a shotgun under his chin.

 

If one is against abortion, don't have one. It's really simple. However, you don't get to make reproductive choices for other people.

 

 

But couldn't abortion be seen as trying to force death on an innocent human being? Could it be that it's not just a question of a woman's body but also of a child's? Your life, your choice, but it seems to me that abortion is making the child's choice for them. Now that we have the technology, we can see that the child is no 'lump of tissue.' (Ultrasound)

Logic shows us that the child is not 'part of the mother.' So.... please consider the possibility that the children are not being treated fairly. People talk about 'rights of the mother' but I don't think that time, place or development has anything to do with being a person. 

 

 

whenn a child is born, its not part of mothre anymore, but whenn its in womb its entirely dependnt on mothre for nutrition andd respiration - its esentialy similar to an organ, part of the mothre, and withuot the mother, it will die unles its developpd enuogh at thatt point to be removd safely. think in thatt way warants that mother has some righht to decidde what to do with it becuse its part of her body in that time. but like you said, abortion can be seen as tryin to force death on an inocent human being - just as abortionn can be seen as just geting rid of a lump of fleshh that is potentil future resource and time-burden. key word ther is see - evryone has their own perception, own way of seein things,som arguebly more or less logicall than others, and realy isnt much to say whos ultimately more righht than other.

 

 

Love this ^. I agree with you 100%.

 

Tal, babies have a much greater chance to be adopted than older children. There are quite a few infertile couples that want a baby and can't have one of their own.

So it is a very good chance they will end up in a good loving home. It is wrong to keep a baby if you don't plan on taking care of them and making them feel loved. That is why adoption is a good alternative.

 

 

If I may, I would like to give you something to think about. I'm not trying to 'convert' anybody. (As if I could if I tried right?  ) I would say that the fetus is never part of the mother. For if we follow that train of thought we would have to conclude (if the child was a male) that the mother had a.... male parts... (how do I make this less awkward?!) 

 

Another thing to think about is babies CAN be viable outside the womb with the aid of an incubator. But if you were in the wilderness when you started giving birth (I know its a stretch but lets pretend  ) then a child that was viable in the city would be in the wilderness. And as logic dictates, personhood cannot be dependent on place. 

 

Another necessary thought is 'what is life?' How do we define life and personhood? A heartbeat? (Six weeks gestation) A unique genetic code? (at the moment of conception) The ability to feel pain? (as early as eight weeks) 

 

I dunno, I guess I want people to know where I'm coming form. That I have my reasons for thinking what I think and believing what I believe. 

 

There are those that say that I have gone off topic and I respectfully disagree. My reason for bringing up abortion is that I believe that in this instance, Feminism has gone too far.