"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Songstress]

At the risk of being facetious, Tsuki, your goldfish, the cow you ate for dinner, and your cat will not, if left without interference, develop into a human infant within a matter of weeks.

[Tsukibana]

be facetious, I often am :)

Like I said, though, I don't believe a fetus - or even an infant - gains it's "soul" until it becomes self-aware. *shrug* But that is simply a personal matter, and one that has no bearing on my main point - 

By making abortion the sole right of the mother, fathers who WANT the child have no say, just like fathers who DON'T want the child. I knew a guy who comitted suicide when he found out his wife

had had THREE abortions, after they had married, simply because she didn't want children. She was not held responsible in any way.

[Tsukibana]

And also, an additional point that I thought of whilst sweating profusely doing lawn work - it seems to me, that by saying that the choice of the abortion is the sole provence of the mother, it gives many people an excuse

to villify and harrass these woman, perhaps feeding mysogenistic (sic?) tendencies. You don't see pro-lifers calling the father a murderer.

Granted, I can't think of a perfect solution, one that could allow court proceedings to delay the abortion until it is too late, but I believe that the father should be involved, somehow, even if it is only signing a consent or disagreement form.

Has anyone here been, or known, a "womb donor"? (Host mother? Not sure of proper term). I'd be interested in hearing the viewpoint on being pregnant from someone who had absolutely no interest in keeping the child.

(I am under the impression that most women who opt for adoption have doubts and mixed feelings, but I welcome their viewpoint as well).

[WildTaltos]

i know som women who have had childrren with no intentionn of raisin them themslves and insted let fatherr or some relative take carre of them but i dont know if that is who you mean. 

 

i feell like fathers shuold be alowed to opt out of carinng for a child thhey didnt want but the woman had anywys or say if the woman kils his future child and they aer married, he shuold be allowed to at lest divorcce her withuot giving her a singgle solitary thing that belong to him, somethinng like that. seems fair when a woman has th righht to kill it or not, father should have right to walk away if he doesnt want it. not sure how muchh fairer you can make it than something like that, since alowing the father to force woman to hav child or force her to killl it doesnt seem right to me. 

[Tsukibana]

Oh, the father should never be able to force her to have the child, but the Auto-divorce would be a start.

[nicana]

Personally I'm a pro-lifer. I don't picket abortion clinics but I still don't believe in them. There are only a couple of reasons I believe it's okay for a woman to have an abortion. If the pregnancy was the result of molestation or rape, or if by having the child it would cost the lives of BOTH woman and child. If a woman doesn't want a child she should be using one of many contraceptives or the old tried and true of keeping your pants up and your legs closed. If a woman does still get pregnant after using contraceptives there is the alternative of letting the father have the baby if he wants it. Yes, I do believe the father should have some input on this. It takes two to have a baby. There is also the alternative of putting the baby up for adoption. I think it's so sad that women are out there having abortions when there are so many women that desperately want a child and can't have one.

 

 

Also The Iraqi Council of Representatives are going to vote to legalize forced child marriage. If this law passes it will force young girls and women into a lifetime of domestic and sexual slavery. Here is the link to sign a petition to stop it. You will have to register for the site.

 

www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/906/729/633/?z00m=21016989

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

And also, an additional point that I thought of whilst sweating profusely doing lawn work - it seems to me, that by saying that the choice of the abortion is the sole provence of the mother, it gives many people an excuse

to villify and harrass these woman, perhaps feeding mysogenistic (sic?) tendencies. You don't see pro-lifers calling the father a murderer.

Granted, I can't think of a perfect solution, one that could allow court proceedings to delay the abortion until it is too late, but I believe that the father should be involved, somehow, even if it is only signing a consent or disagreement form.

Has anyone here been, or known, a "womb donor"? (Host mother? Not sure of proper term). I'd be interested in hearing the viewpoint on being pregnant from someone who had absolutely no interest in keeping the child.

(I am under the impression that most women who opt for adoption have doubts and mixed feelings, but I welcome their viewpoint as well).

 

Ugh, I DETEST when pro-lifers call the mothers murderers. I believe they are just the victims of ignorance. Not totally their fault. They did make a 'choice' but women are often pushed and pressured into having abortions. And whether or not you believe it's okay, THAT is not okay.  

 

 

Personally I'm a pro-lifer. I don't picket abortion clinics but I still don't believe in them. There are only a couple of reasons I believe it's okay for a woman to have an abortion. If the pregnancy was the result of molestation or rape, or if by having the child it would cost the lives of BOTH woman and child. If a woman doesn't want a child she should be using one of many contraceptives or the old tried and true of keeping your pants up and your legs closed. If a woman does still get pregnant after using contraceptives there is the alternative of letting the father have the baby if he wants it. Yes, I do believe the father should have some input on this. It takes two to have a baby. There is also the alternative of putting the baby up for adoption. I think it's so sad that women are out there having abortions when there are so many women that desperately want a child and can't have one.

 

 

Also The Iraqi Council of Representatives are going to vote to legalize forced child marriage. If this law passes it will force young girls and women into a lifetime of domestic and sexual slavery. here is the link to sign a petition to stop it. You will have to register for the site.

 

www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/906/729/633/?z00m=21016989

 

Totally going to sign. Thanks for posting. :)

[Tsukibana]

Very tragic, Nicana, but what will a petition signed by infidel westerners do? I think a bullet is a better solution. Systems like this need to be ended forcefully.

"People who say violence never solves anything have never been hit in the face with a baseball bat."

 

On a similiar note - April was Child Abuse Awareness Month - What did YOU do to make a difference?

(General Question for all, not an attack at NIcana :))

[nicana]

The petition is our bullet. It's the way we can fight this. I do agree with you that something like this needs to be stopped forcefully but how you propose to go about it? The petition is a start.

 

As far as your last question. I didn't take it personally. No worries. But I have been supportive for quite awhile now of a family member getting full custody of his son from his neglective and abusive ex girlfriend. It's not doing something worldwide but as they say "charity starts at home".

[Tsukibana]

Good for you, and I hope that kid gets somewhere he's safe.

 

Perhaps the petition is a bullet, but it's like using a .22 against an armored Warthog. Honestly, and in all fairness and respect to those who sign, things like

that are mainly ways for people to "do something" to make themselves feel better without ACTUALLY doing anything. It's sad, Nic, but there is only one thing 

that can truly stop things like that - The West needs to unite, conquer fractious territories, establish controlled governments, and put an end to these things 

forcefully. Yes, I'm an Imperialist, and No, a culture has no inherent right to exist. (I submit NAMBLA, and the culture they would like to see exist.)

We may have a LONG way to go, as this thread points out, but at least the West is moving FORWARD, not backwards into 7th-century Religious Laws.

And NO, this is not an attack on Islam - This is an attack on specific fundamentalist mindsets that can exist anywhere, and in any religion. It just so happens

the Middle East is the current hot-bed of this type of extremism (Southern Indonesia comes to mind, ass well).

[Ryrin]

I really dislike women being placed in the role of children, unable to make decisions for themselves. They are "victims" and "ignorant" if they chose to terminate a pregnancy. Hmmm. So someone else has to make the decision for her? I think not.

 

So far, there are no laws forcing women to have abortions but there are those who advocate laws forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.

 

I also disagree with those who say that a woman not wanting a child should "use contraceptives or keep her legs closed." In a perfect world there would be no unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, contraceptives are not 100% effective. We could say the same for men. If you don't want to become a parent, keep it in your pants or use condoms. Condoms aren't 100% effective either and expecting adults to be celibate is not realistic, IMO.

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

 

Until men are able to carry children, give birth and take all of the health risks involved, the decision should remain in the hands of the woman.

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

 

I do not tell you this to glorify myself, only to demonstrate that the choice should be in the hands of those who take the most risk/responsibility. Biologically speaking, it is the female.

[Tsukibana]

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

Interesting - Placing him in the unenviable position of letting the woman he loves die, and risking him being a crap parent because he's reminded of how his son killed his wife. I do not envy either of you the situation, and am so glad you lived to see your son grow.

 

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

Whoa! Who said that??

 

Ryrin, I understand the "risk and be able to carry children" argument, but what about my brother's friend. Ate both barrels of a 12-guage, .00 buck, when he found out his wife had THREE abortions during their marriage, simply because she didn't want kids. Not for health reasons, or bad financial situation, or rape, or incest. She just didn't want kids... His note said he was going to find his kids... Yeah, the father, who is

willing to spend the rest of his LIFE helping to guide this new life, the FATHER that might watch his wife DIE giving birth to their son, has no right to try to save that child before it is born??

[WildTaltos]

Very tragic, Nicana, but what will a petition signed by infidel westerners do? I think a bullet is a better solution. Systems like this need to be ended forcefully.

"People who say violence never solves anything have never been hit in the face with a baseball bat."

 

On a similiar note - April was Child Abuse Awareness Month - What did YOU do to make a difference?

(General Question for all, not an attack at NIcana :))

 

iv rarrely known violennce to end much of anything in any wayy that doesnt cause sh-t storm befor thinngs settle (if they evre do). lot of problms in worlld today i see as havin been caused in partt by peple resortin to violence and threts instead of reasonin with each other. iv been hit in face plennty of times; didnt stop me from actin up or retaliatingg imediately or planing on geting them back later, and thatts mostly what i see in mostt cases violence or threatts ever used - eithre doesnt stop people from acting out (may stopp thm from doin it so visiblly but theyl still do it privatly), theyl retaliate immediaty or in whille and cauuse huge mess that causes culturall/social damage thats worse than th originall problem, etc. reasoninng takes lot more work - somtimes it takes decades, sometime even longer, as its matterr of culture you aer trying to reason to change in a stable fashion and thats difficult, but by the endd of it youve made alterations that willl actuallly endure and not cause much resemblin damage.

[Ryrin]

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

 

Interesting - Placing him in the unenviable position of letting the woman he loves die, and risking him being a crap parent because he's reminded of how his son killed his wife. I do not envy either of you the situation, and am so glad you lived to see your son grow.

 

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

 

Whoa! Who said that??

 

Ryrin, I understand the "risk and be able to carry children" argument, but what about my brother's friend. Ate both barrels of a 12-guage, .00 buck, when he found out his wife had THREE abortions during their marriage, simply because she didn't want kids. Not for health reasons, or bad financial situation, or rape, or incest. She just didn't want kids... His note said he was going to find his kids... Yeah, the father, who is

willing to spend the rest of his LIFE helping to guide this new life, the FATHER that might watch his wife DIE giving birth to their son, has no right to try to save that child before it is born??

My husband wasn't "letting" anything happen. He was going to respect my choice. My life, my choice. Had I passed, I can assure you he would have been an excellent father to our youngest son, as he is to our oldest son. He isn't that immature to blame an infant because his mother died in childbirth. I would have never married or had a child with someone that shallow.

 

"Who said that?" You need to read all of the posts. I have no issue with adoption as long as a woman has all options open to her including termination.

 

There is no one to blame for suicide but the person who commits it. Of course there are often extenuating circumstances such as mental

Illness. There were options available other than putting a shotgun under his chin.

 

If one is against abortion, don't have one. It's really simple. However, you don't get to make reproductive choices for other people.

[Tsukibana]

Oh, I am not anti-abortion.

I just believe, as I said earlier, that the father should HAVE to be involved. Don't delay the abortion, no legal BS where he can file delays until a deadline passes, but the father should be

able to have his voice known. If he wants a kid, and she doesn't, he has to be informed, register his objection. If she goes through with it, then if they are married, Instant grounds for divorce. Clearly she wasn't the

right spouse. If he DOESN'T want the kid either, gravy. Either way, she makes the decision, but know the father's wishes can be known. And the same way a mother has the right to KILL her potential child, a father

should have the right to "abort" his rights before the kid is even born. She wants to HAVE the kid, great, but don't come to HIM looking for child support. And if he makes contact with the child before age 18, sue his

ass for breach of contract.

 

@Taltos - No disrespect, man, but my quote didn't say "hit in the face". It said "hit in the face with a BASEBALL BAT". You definitely would NOT be acting up or retaliating after that. You'd be lucky to be alive.

The people in this world have the habit of UNDER using it. They stop too soon. Japan took a baseball bat to the face with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How many "shit storms" have they been involved with since?

[Ryrin]

Oh, I am not anti-abortion.

I just believe, as I said earlier, that the father should HAVE to be involved. Don't delay the abortion, no legal BS where he can file delays until a deadline passes, but the father should be

able to have his voice known. If he wants a kid, and she doesn't, he has to be informed, register his objection. If she goes through with it, then if they are married, Instant grounds for divorce. Clearly she wasn't the

right spouse. If he DOESN'T want the kid either, gravy. Either way, she makes the decision, but know the father's wishes can be known. And the same way a mother has the right to KILL her potential child, a father

should have the right to "abort" his rights before the kid is even born. She wants to HAVE the kid, great, but don't come to HIM looking for child support. And if he makes contact with the child before age 18, sue his

ass for breach of contract.

 

@Taltos - No disrespect, man, but my quote didn't say "hit in the face". It said "hit in the face with a BASEBALL BAT". You definitely would NOT be acting up or retaliating after that. You'd be lucky to be alive.

The people in this world have the habit of UNDER using it. They stop too soon. Japan took a baseball bat to the face with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How many "shit storms" have they been involved with since?

 

Every man should be aware that intercourse can result in a child and there is no 100% contraception.

 

Do you really think a child should be punished financially?

 

There is no need for "grounds for divorce." No fault divorce is legal.

[Tsukibana]

Tal, I definitely meant no dispespect. I wasn't just saying it to be trite. I DO respect you. I remember reading your blog when you were going through a bunch of crap with your father, and

reading about how much you enjoyed spending time with your son... So please don't make assumptions based on my world experience, tell me I'm "delusional", and tell me to "wisen" up.

I am a 30 year old man who has lived threw some sh-t most people wouldn't come out of the other side of. 

 

I was not intending to derail this thread. A part from my side comments, I have been respecting the issue at hand and tried to avoid following my tangents too far.

[Tsukibana]

No fault divorce is NOT always no fault. Have you never heard of alimony?

 

I guess growing up in the inner city, I have seen more career "baby's momma's" than most...

[nicana]

I really dislike women being placed in the role of children, unable to make decisions for themselves. They are "victims" and "ignorant" if they chose to terminate a pregnancy. Hmmm. So someone else has to make the decision for her? I think not.

 

So far, there are no laws forcing women to have abortions but there are those who advocate laws forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.

 

I also disagree with those who say that a woman not wanting a child should "use contraceptives or keep her legs closed." In a perfect world there would be no unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, contraceptives are not 100% effective. We could say the same for men. If you don't want to become a parent, keep it in your pants or use condoms. Condoms aren't 100% effective either and expecting adults to be celibate is not realistic, IMO.

 

I know on a first hand basis that contraceptives are not 100% effective. I got pregnant with my daughter while I was on the pill. But  abortion never crossed my mind. As far as men go, I rather be responsible myself. Use concraceptives and carry my own condoms so there are no excuses. If a woman doesn't want a child then she shouldn't get pregnant. If she is afraid the contraceptives won't work then don't have sex. I totally believe in the saying "if you play, you pay". It's so much easier for a woman to have sex, get pregnant, then have an abortion instead of taking responsiblity for their mistakes. What does that say to our children?

 

In addition, women should not be forced to carry pregnancies for infertile couples. Women are more than wombs.

 

Yes women are more than wombs. But that goes back to what I said earlier. It's about taking responsibility. If a woman has sex and gets pregnant then she should take responsibility for it instead of killing the fetus off. One of these ways is by adoption. 

 

Until men are able to carry children, give birth and take all of the health risks involved, the decision should remain in the hands of the woman.

 

Did the woman get pregnant by miraculous conception? No she did not. It takes two to have a pregnancy. It should be a decision between the man and the woman. Everyone wants to scream equality for women but to leave the father out of this decision is not equal at all.

 

Yes, there are health risks. I almost died having my youngest son and was flown by a trauma helicopter to a large medical center. Right before I was loaded in the helicopter, I told my husband if there needed to be a choice between the two of us, he was to let me go. I told him "I choose."

 

I do not tell you this to glorify myself, only to demonstrate that the choice should be in the hands of those who take the most risk/responsibility. Biologically speaking, it is the female.

 

I posted my responses in your post above.

I love you sis but we will never see eye to eye on this.

[Ryrin]

Love you back, Nic. :)

 

"If you play, you pay."

 

I don't think a child should be viewed as some type of punishment/tariff. Ideally, a child should be wanted and anticipated with joy.

[Tsukibana]

..., a child should be wanted and anticipated with joy.

 

This, all day long.

[nicana]

Love you back, Nic. :)

"If you play, you pay."

I don't think a child should be viewed as some type of punishment/tariff. Ideally, a child should be wanted and anticipated with joy.

I didn't mean the child as punishment. What I meant is if your adult enough to get pregnant then be adult enough to take responsibility. Either by taking care of them or giving them to someone that wants a child. Abortion is the easy way out.

[Ryrin]

I'm not sure why people think the choice to terminate a pregnancy is "easy?"

[WildTaltos]

abortion i gues is relativly easier than givinng bith to child and raisin it or givinng it away but dont know how it folows that giving birthh is the onlly responsible thing to do adter geting pregnant, unles saying that the hardest thing is the only responsible. thats true in many cases but i dont see it true in thiis case feell like its mor relative in thiis case. i feell lik unles you have someone fullly willing to take care of a chilld you dont want or yuor still wiling to be a competennt/good parent even if you dontt realy want chilld at leas at first, its more responsble to not have it; it hapens to many times that parennts mihgt not be ablle to affford abortion and they diont seem to have somone else to take chilld, not at first at least, and so have a kid that theyy both or one of them hate and treatt horible until (and this lot of timess dosnt happen I bet), somonne takes kid away of them, like relative or sociall service. othre times parents giv them up but no one wantts them - ther isnt as many peoplle lookin to adopt apparently as would think (maybe there are but maye th adoption processs in lot of places is hard, who knowss), or els there wuold not be so many orphans and foster homes, and so thenn kid might spend whol life being buonced around places or growin up in orphanage whichh can be realy horible places. gues comes down to whethre consider havin a child tortured or neglected and potentialy growin up into very damage adult is morre responsble than just not lettin it exist to begin with, and of cuorse that question dealls with lot of what ifs - what if chilld manages to find beter parents? what if h grow up into prety 'normal' person even after hes beenn through so much? what if it hass soul and so will go to beter place/have betterr life than whatt would have if let it live life where wuold have been unloved? etc. feel like its hard with al thos factors to just say this is ireponsible and thats that. I feel like ther are at least some cases wher would have been bettr for most people involvved if chilld had not been alowed to exist; feell like the respnsible thing to have done in my case fior example is get rid of me like my father had wantted once fuond out i had birthh defects and that would have beenn better fior most people involved, i lot of times wishh i didnt exist aftre all ive been through and both of my parentts and lot of my familly didnt like me that much because i embarass them so would be beter for them too, especialy my mother, if had goten rid of me. im sure im not the onlly case like that.

[Elgee]

Welcome to the White Tower & Warders, and thank you for restrained and considerate contribution to the discussion, Tsukibana :)