"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[WildTaltos]

If I may, I would like to give you something to think about. I'm not trying to 'convert' anybody. (As if I could if I tried right?  ) I would say that the fetus is never part of the mother. For if we follow that train of thought we would have to conclude (if the child was a male) that the mother had a.... male parts... (how do I make this less awkward?!) 

 

Another thing to think about is babies CAN be viable outside the womb with the aid of an incubator. But if you were in the wilderness when you started giving birth (I know its a stretch but lets pretend  ) then a child that was viable in the city would be in the wilderness. And as logic dictates, personhood cannot be dependent on place. 

 

Another necessary thought is 'what is life?' How do we define life and personhood? A heartbeat? (Six weeks gestation) A unique genetic code? (at the moment of conception) The ability to feel pain? (as early as eight weeks) 

 

I dunno, I guess I want people to know where I'm coming form. That I have my reasons for thinking what I think and believing what I believe. 

 

There are those that say that I have gone off topic and I respectfully disagree. My reason for bringing up abortion is that I believe that in this instance, Feminism has gone too far.

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

[Tsukibana]

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

 

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

[Ryrin]

Both of my sons spent months in incubators.

 

Something the size of a kidney bean, whether it has a Y chromosome or not is not a "child" in my opinion nor can it sustain itself outside of the womb.

 

89-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).

[Ryrin]

 

 

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

No need to "yell." (All caps.)

 

If a moderator has not requested those present to change the subject, the discussion can continue.

[WildTaltos]

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

 

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

they aer in th contextt that both deall with animall needin to kill yuong for oen reson or anothre, whethttre its becuse yuong is unfit or lack of resuroces that make the parennt unfit - only diference is stage at whichh hapens annd methoods on how it caried out.  but sinc yuo askd for exmple of animall performin "abortionn" thers many instnces where animals can delayy egg implantattion in thmselves untill facuorable conditions occur (and if thhey dont, fertilised egg is absorbedd back into body) or els induce miscariage under hardshipp or danger to helpp themselves -  googgle for easy starting point if yuo are actualy interested. if yuor defininng abortion as specificaly usin technollogy to kil the foetus, than obviusly not the same but thats bein obtuse or els delibrately troling. take it to pm if yuo lookin for argument ovre that

[Tsukibana]

@Ryrin - Not yelling. Caps for emphasis.

 

@Taltos - Actually, I WAS thinking of using technology, but in this case "animal technology" - herbs to induce ending pregnancy. I'm perfectly capable of using Google, thanks, no reason to hold my hand

- but since it was you making the point in the conversation, I figured I'd let you provide evidence. Hmm... must be an "Imperialist" thing, being civil to someone you disagree with.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

 

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

 

But that was the reason they gave. Women's rights, Women's privacy. 

[Ryrin]

@Ryrin - Not yelling. Caps h.

@Ryrin - Not yelling. Caps for emphasis.

Whether it was "yelling" or for "emphasis" the second part of my statement stands.

 

"If a moderator has not requested those present to change the subject, the discussion can continue."

 

Therefore, no "emphasis" is necessary.

[Ryrin]

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

 

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

But that was the reason they gave. Women's rights, Women's privacy.

Hi, Jak. I'm not sure what you mean??

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

But that was the reason they gave. Women's rights, Women's privacy.

Hi, Jak. I'm not sure what you mean??

 

 

About the supreme court thing.

Tsukibana said that since the supreme court were all men, it wasn't a feminism issue. I though that that was incorrect so I responded.   

[Ryrin]

"I wish to remind everyone that it's fine to disagree with what someone else has said, but please do so in a civilised matter. That means no personally attacking the other poster, no name calling, no flaming. Reread the WT/W 101 sticky, if you've forgotten what our rules are."

 

Let's go forward with this in mind.  Everyone.

[Ryrin]

 

 

 

 

i know wher yuor coming from and respect that, i just cant have same view - iv thuoght abobut these questions before for diferent resons and answrs i reached gives me no reason to be aginst abortion, particulurly since abortion has nevre been som big controversiall thing to me. abortionn/infanticide hapens in natural worlld, humans to me no diferent than animals, so its somthing not very horrible to me, just is and i diont care much unles hapens to be somone i know invollved.

Abortion and infanticide are not the same thing - the fetus is not an infant until it is born.

 

Example of animal kingdom abortion, please.

 

 

Aside from that, can we LET IT GO? Abortion is not the issue. Feminism, specifically whether it hurts or tries to put men down, is. Also, Jak, the Supreme Court that upheld Roe v Wade was ALL MEN. I don't think

that claiming "feminism went too far" works...

 

But that was the reason they gave. Women's rights, Women's privacy.

Hi, Jak. I'm not sure what you mean??

 

 

About the supreme court thing.

Tsukibana said that since the supreme court were all men, it wasn't a feminism issue. I though that that was incorrect so I responded.   

 

 

I'll let him elaborate but that wasn't his point, I think.  

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Oh, you're right, He said that I cannot claim that feminism went too far. My bad  ... But I still think that that is incorrect for the reasons I mentioned. 

[Ryrin]

Now that we are clear on that, it's ok to disagree. :)

[michellem]

Ok I'll be stepping out now since this has turned away from what I feel the purpose of the thread is and into an area I don't feel comfortable discussing. Thanks for all input, everyone, it's been a good discussion.

[Ryrin]

Vintage Ad's for and about Women.  How far we have come!

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

[Elgee]

Those just fill me with horror. I think it's a good think we're reminded of how far some areas of the world HAVE become better. It also reminds us that in many places, women are treated much worse than that today still.

[Daruya]

Good point, Elgee. 

[Tsukibana]

If I may ask, which is considered worse, in your opinions - 

The brutal oppression that some women face - such as women in central Africa;

Or the insidiousness of cultural oppression that these ads, and certain religions, represent?

 

To me, it seems, that the brutal oppression is "more honest" (dare I use that phrase) - it is in your face, demands something is done (though sadly...), and can only be truly justified

(in my mind) by sociopaths. Even the ones committing these types of atrocities HAS to know they are wrong..

The cultural oppression is more dangerous, to me, simply because it leads to acceptance of inferiority - this is the way it is, and it isn't so bad - as well as allowing the oppressors to

rest comfortably in their judgements.

I'm not sure that I am being clear, but hopefully what I mean comes through...

 

Another question, related to the original topic, is whether or not "Feminism", in it's drive, not for equality (my opinion, and I certainly don't mean to imply all people who are "For Women"

are "Against Men") but to cast down that which oppressed, creates a insidious mindset where a masculine, chivalrous, intelligent man can instead be painted as Brutish (I fight to defend

what I love), Over-Bearing (was called this for opening doors, and offering to walk a female co-worker to her car, at night, in Detroit, Michigan - suburbia, it wasn't), Patronizing (for

pulling out a chair   O.o  ), War-Monger (because I believe US troops deserve support even if I disagreed with the war...), Patriarchal (Christian)... 

It seems to me that the more the "Front-page Feminists" "strike blows" for the cause, the easier it is to cast men as stereotypes - unless, of course you are gay, in which case you are

welcomed into the fold (despite personally knowing a few chauvanistic homosexuals).

[Elgee]

If I may ask, which is considered worse, in your opinions - 

The brutal oppression that some women face - such as women in central Africa;

Or the insidiousness of cultural oppression that these ads, and certain religions, represent?

 

To me, it seems, that the brutal oppression is "more honest" (dare I use that phrase) - it is in your face, demands something is done (though sadly...), and can only be truly justified

(in my mind) by sociopaths. Even the ones committing these types of atrocities HAS to know they are wrong..

The cultural oppression is more dangerous, to me, simply because it leads to acceptance of inferiority - this is the way it is, and it isn't so bad - as well as allowing the oppressors to

rest comfortably in their judgements.

I'm not sure that I am being clear, but hopefully what I mean comes through...

 

 

I understand what you mean, but I have to disagree. From the outside looking in it might appear so, but trust me - it's a hell of a lot worse to get beaten and raped on a daily basis, than to have some old fart call you "my dear" and pat you on the head.

 

It might, however, be easier to make someone realise that beating and raping someone (as an example) is wrong, as opposed to having that dear old fart (as an example) realise how incredibly sexist he actually is.

 

 

Another question, related to the original topic, is whether or not "Feminism", in it's drive, not for equality (my opinion, and I certainly don't mean to imply all people who are "For Women"

are "Against Men") but to cast down that which oppressed, creates a insidious mindset where a masculine, chivalrous, intelligent man can instead be painted as Brutish (I fight to defend

what I love), Over-Bearing (was called this for opening doors, and offering to walk a female co-worker to her car, at night, in Detroit, Michigan - suburbia, it wasn't), Patronizing (for

pulling out a chair   O.o  ), War-Monger (because I believe US troops deserve support even if I disagreed with the war...), Patriarchal (Christian)... 

It seems to me that the more the "Front-page Feminists" "strike blows" for the cause, the easier it is to cast men as stereotypes - unless, of course you are gay, in which case you are

welcomed into the fold (despite personally knowing a few chauvanistic homosexuals).

 

 

 

That was a very long sentence and I'm not sure I followed it correctly all the way to the end. Are you of the opinion that Feminism has become sexist, rather than equalitarian?

 

If so, I understand where you're coming from. I would say that there is always the danger of individuals becoming exactly that which they fought against (case in point, the racism which is now rife in South Africa, but which is black on white instead of white on black). That does not make the "movement" or "philosophy" or "idiology" itself that, just some individuals.

[Tsukibana]

Oh, I definitely wasn't trying to say that being told "to get in the kitchen" is worse than being dragged into the kitchen.

Far from it. I was just wondering if that kind of brutality is considered "easier" to fight, and to change, than a culture

where the woman isn't raped daily, but instead is never allowed to go to school, or have a career, etc. I have never

taken any sort of women's study course, so I am not sure which one is (if in fact either is) harder to change, to fight

against.

 

Also, you hit the meaning on the head, to the second statement. Just trying to get more people involved in the conversation. :)

[Elgee]

Oh, I definitely wasn't trying to say that being told "to get in the kitchen" is worse than being dragged into the kitchen.

Far from it. I was just wondering if that kind of brutality is considered "easier" to fight, and to change, than a culture

where the woman isn't raped daily, but instead is never allowed to go to school, or have a career, etc. I have never

taken any sort of women's study course, so I am not sure which one is (if in fact either is) harder to change, to fight

against.

 

I guess it depends on who does the fighting. Most 1st world countries really couldn't give a toss about most 3rd world countries (or whatever the politically correct terms are this week) unless there's oil involved, and therefore are never going to push hard enough to stop attrocities against women, or any other oppressed people.

 

Also, you hit the meaning on the head, to the second statement. Just trying to get more people involved in the conversation. :)

 

 

Coolios :)

[Tsukibana]

 

Oh, I definitely wasn't trying to say that being told "to get in the kitchen" is worse than being dragged into the kitchen.

Far from it. I was just wondering if that kind of brutality is considered "easier" to fight, and to change, than a culture

where the woman isn't raped daily, but instead is never allowed to go to school, or have a career, etc. I have never

taken any sort of women's study course, so I am not sure which one is (if in fact either is) harder to change, to fight

against.

 

I guess it depends on who does the fighting. Most 1st world countries really couldn't give a toss about most 3rd world countries (or whatever the politically correct terms are this week) unless there's oil involved, and therefore are never going to push hard enough to stop attrocities against women, or any other oppressed people.

 

 

Do you believe that the strong would have the right to intervene to stop these atrocities, if it required the use of force and the destruction of a oppressive government/culture?

[Elgee]

In two words: hell yes. I really am not interested in the niceties when peoples' lives are at stake.

[Sunrise Lord]

And of course, the more developed nations won't "officially" do anything to change what goes on in less developed nations unless there's something to their benefit such as oil or some political advantage. It seems like the only ones from top tier nations that care and actually try to help out of the goodness of their hearts are the small organizations or individuals that go to these places and try to change them for the better.

 

 

Edit: not trying to detail the thread I promise Ry.