who you think can qualify to join the hero of the horn

[Barid Bel Medar]

I would bet on Egwene being a Hero - she is the strongest candidate (and it explains the little 'conversation' she had with Rand after she had died), but it's not certain. 

 

There are a lot of other options. They don't need to have done much - since Mat did a whole lot and is not a hero - but enough to distinguish themselves in some way. 

 

So I can see Suian, Gareth, Bashere, Rhuarc or Gawyn being Heroes. 

 

The 'more than one' Hero dead is uncertain. I don't know if Maria was taking Birgitte to be alive the whole way through (and as she died and was reborn in the one book, it would not add to the number of heroes). So that's uncertain. 

 

However, I believe that the best bet would be Egwene and Gawyn being Heroes. 

 

 

Edit: There is also the possibility that there are over 3 heroes dead. Calian and Shiva are supposed to be heralds of the new age. If those two were born to herald the new age, they could have been spun out. However, it's difficult to tell if they have (there is nothing besides 'heralds of the new age' to tell when they are born. Are they born before the age turns? The exact moment? Afterwards? And when exactly does the age turn? Not expecting answers, just questions we can't be sure when looking at the two) , and I am not sure if there would be 3-4 Heroes dead at the Last Battle. It's possible, all of those listed above plus more could have been Heroes - but I find it unlikely. 

[elric]

thank you barid :)

as i said spelling name is a bane of mine :))

 

Venin may be an option -> THE THIEF ! :))

Rhuarc might be-> we dont know how great his reutation and history was among the Aial

 

or probably someone we dont know about :)

could even been a Senchean or a Shara person who did great and grand deads that our P.O.V wasnt aware off :)))

or an Ogair or a wolf :)))

[elric]

disagrea on Gawyn, idont c what make him stand a part

 

i think horn heroes should have something that make them stand out, dont c it in Gawyn

 

btw: u dont need to die in the LB to become an hero :))),  we simply know thanks to Badir that atleast 1 of the LB casulties become 1 . but that dont say that the survivors wont be inducted later :))

[Barid Bel Medar]

I can see why people wouldn't think Gawyn is fit to be one, but I think it's more possible than it looks. 

 

Gawyn did a lot throughout the series - even if he didn't accomplish anything like Rand Mat or Perrin. It also doesn't necessarily need to be an earthshaking change. His presence was vital for keeping Egwene alive (ie- the viewings etc.. with Egwene and Seanchan). His death also prompted Egwene's own actions which arguably saved the world. 

 

Brigitte and Gaidal didn't necessarily triumph over all evils. In fact, Egwene and Gawyn's end is very much like Birgitte and Gaidal. 

 

Birgitte says she often died fighting against impossible odds. Not necessarily succeeding in whatever she attempted to achieve (see her story about the Finns.). 

 

Both Egwene and Gawyn of course mirror  Eldrene and her husband (was that Aemon? I can't remember). 

 

Furthermore, Gawyn has a solid 'characteristic' as talked about earlier. I don't think it needs to be so clear cut as everyone needs a defining name/attribute. Nonetheless, Gaywn has always been the "Fallen Prince" archetype - which both RJ and Brandon have clarified in interviews. 

 

He is akin to Lancelot and has some parallels with other heroic figures. 

 

Lancelot and Guinevere would certainly be worthy of HotH status.  

[avernite]

There is that.

 

But I am a bit wary of these pairings; from the books, it seemed somewhat 'special' that Birgitte and Gaidal were together always. There's Shiva and Calian, and they may be those (seeing as Egwene has obvious ties to Rand, who has a rather important role in ending the age too)...

 

Sadly I still don't quite see what would distinguish Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, etcetera... so without that, I feel we're stuck with mostly guesswork. Hurin was explicitly mentioned as a possibility, which almost implies everyone else present there is a rather obvious figure Hawkwing already recognised (being, IIRC, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Verin... who would also qualify for consideration on other grounds).

[jack of shadows]

@avernite,

kudos to you avernite for the way you appraised nynaeve.

min only saw rand al'thor the person,she never really cared about all the rest,aviendha only saw a wetlander warrior and a lover,

elayne only saw a lover and a ruler,lan only saw a younger version of himself and aes sedai only saw a dragon reborn,a man who

was born to lead the forces of light in the last battle(preferably under their control of course!!).

personally,i never considered nynaeve as a mother figure to rand,she was more like an annoying big sister,particularly in the first

3-4 books.indeed,winter heart was the turning point in their relationship(baby steps turning point) culminating in the towers of

midnight's wonderful conversation,a conversation between two firm and trusting friends.

in my opinion,nynaeve was the only one who saw and to a great extent also understood the complete rand, i.e. the person,the dragon reborn,the warrior,the ruler and the lover(to some).

taishar nynaeve,in my book,you earned your place as a hero of the horn.

[elric]

Barid:

good points , if u will ost a short explanation and 1 title sentence i will add Gawyn to the candidates, like the sentence in the poll and the small reasoning in the opening post that each candidate have (he is your candidate so u shoyld sell him best :)  ).

still not sold on Gawyn as an hero but i c now why he is a candidate :)

 

Ave

Birg and Gaid have "true love" love strong enough to survive trough death (strongly recomend seeing Princess Bride for a true love story).

most of the char found love , which is kind of the way the pattern reward them, do what the pattern want -> find happiness

but from all the coupling i think only Nyn + Lan / Per+ Fail may be true love, the other coupling dont seem as strong to me :Rand had other love in prior life, Eg calm reaction to Gawyn death...

 

about what make the candidate i offer stand out -> i think i kind of answer it allready in the thread , but i be happy to address any speicific disagreament u have :)

[Rhienne]

 

ROBERT JORDAN

In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a Hero linked to the Wheel.

 

 

 

 

I would bet on Egwene being a Hero - she is the strongest candidate (and it explains the little 'conversation' she had with Rand after she had died), but it's not certain.

 

Just a query as I'm not sure I understand the afterlife mechanism for the WoT.  I thought characters were reborn when they died so I guess this means that they spend a bit of time in a (TAR like?) afterlife before being reborn.  If this is the case for everyone then I wouldn't necessarily think Egwene talking to Rand has any bearing on whether she might be a Hero of the Horn.  Unless you have a special awareness from being a Hero?  Otherwise it could just be her familiarity in TAR helping her in the afterlife before she's reborn.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm not sure what the ordinary afterlife is like, or if it is possible to do what you suggest. We don't have much IIRC about the afterlife other than 'it exists' and is a soul pool for those waiting to be reborn. 

 

So yeah, I didn't mean to imply that her chat with Rand (if it even was her, it hasn't been confirmed.) was proof of HotH status, just that it would be one explanation of how it happened. 

[Mr Ares]

as i said i nevr argue with the Author :)

 

another fav theory (and defendable one) down the drain :(

btw  u have link to this saying ?

You know, I did say that right back in my first post...

AAN'ALLEIN

A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the Worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.

Found here.

 

Arthur is not remembered for wisdom he is remembered for justice and the ideal of the knight -> protect the innocent...

Moving goalposts again.

 

the living Avatar is one of SEVERAL tests! that i put my candidate trough.

But, again, is it a relevant test? It doesn't matter how many others you have if this one serves no useful purpose.

 

 

 

Something to keep in mind when discussing this is that Maria recently said there were LESS Heroes in the flesh than there were pre-aMoL.

 

Interesting; the most obvious hero types (Moiraine, Perrin, Mat, Lan, Nynaeve) didn't die. Egwene might be one, which would make the proper less (if only by one), but what other options do we have?

 

I am assuming, of course, the Heroes are on the side of good. Otherwise, Moridin and Demandred would be decent choices for dead ones, too.

 

Well, Ishamael/Moridin did believe he was spun out again and again to face the Dragon, and I believe Brandon has indicated there is some truth there. I don't think him being a Hero is something we can rule out just yet.

 

Edit: There is also the possibility that there are over 3 heroes dead. Calian and Shiva are supposed to be heralds of the new age. If those two were born to herald the new age, they could have been spun out. However, it's difficult to tell if they have (there is nothing besides 'heralds of the new age' to tell when they are born. Are they born before the age turns? The exact moment? Afterwards? And when exactly does the age turn? Not expecting answers, just questions we can't be sure when looking at the two) , and I am not sure if there would be 3-4 Heroes dead at the Last Battle. It's possible, all of those listed above plus more could have been Heroes - but I find it unlikely.

There is, of course, the theory that Elayne's children are the reincarnation of Calian and Shivan. As for the changing of Ages, the impression I got is that it takes some time, rather than being a single moment you can point to.

[Frogtastic]

I Think Thom could qualify as a hero since he's led a pretty interesting life kind of like Noal. Traveled the world as a gleeman, been a royal court bard, romanced a queen, killed a king and stopped an assassination by killing the would-be usurper. He was also a master at manipulating people and events in the game of houses. If you can have heroes characterized by being adventurers, conquerors, est... why not someone that can fit the role of a bard or spy like Thom can.

[Orderofolde]

I liked the Loial option.  But there was nothing that showed an Ogier or a non-human among the HOH.  More interestingly enough, Mat was told that he more than had earned a place among them, but something kept him from being able to join them.  Wonder what that was.  Also, Noal came back to the Light, as did Ingtar.  Would have been cool to see Ingtar among the HOH, or someone fitting his description.  Maybe a Snake or a Fox that was a shrewd bargainer.

[elric]

Order

 

there are wolves HOTH that Perrin meet and release/send/lead... (not sure how to describe it exactly :)  ) into the last battle.

so if wolves get the honor.... why not other sentient beeing :)

 

 

Barid

 

i wont be able to do Gawin justice since i dont think he is horn worthy.

i do believe U made a good case for him.

i still await your arguments so i could post them :) 

 

Ares

i never moved the goalpost, i brought Arthur as an example to a dominating quality , u somehow imagine him in a diffrent way then i brought him and u also ignore its only an example and that this thread IS NOT about Arthur.

 

if u disagrea wih my test , mind sharing how u decide if a char is Horn worthy ?

[Mr Ares]

if u disagrea wih my test , mind sharing how u decide if a char is Horn worthy ?

I don't. The low numbers of Heroes mean that new Heroes joining their ranks must surely be a vanishingly rare event (or there's a lot of turnover in their ranks we don't know about). Given that rarity, it is unlikely that any of our characters would fulfil the requirements.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

[Mr Ares]

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

Consider that Birgitte knows that even in her oldest memories, there are lives uncounted before that that she cannot remember. She's been around a long time. Yet there are only around a hundred or so Heroes. So, given what we know, old Heroes continue to serve, and new Heroes being added must be exceedingly rare. It's highly doubtful that even one person from the books will be added, let alone half a dozen.

[avernite]

 

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

Consider that Birgitte knows that even in her oldest memories, there are lives uncounted before that that she cannot remember. She's been around a long time. Yet there are only around a hundred or so Heroes. So, given what we know, old Heroes continue to serve, and new Heroes being added must be exceedingly rare. It's highly doubtful that even one person from the books will be added, let alone half a dozen.

 

 

Of course, we might equally ask 'which people were Heroes in disguise'? We know Hawkwing recognized Rand, but he was the most bloody obvious Hero the Age had to offer (plus Hawkwing certainly implied titles for Mat/Perrin, and his remarks to Hurin might imply Verin was a Hero, too). So having come in contact with Hawkwing isn't even a good test to bar people from already having been a Hero.

 

We know at least 4 Heroes that were around at the same time, too: Jain Farstrider, Rand Altor, Gaidal-Cain-the-baby, and Birgitte-the-aberration (by the time Birgitte was reborn normally, Jain was dead). This might imply there might as well be more (again, Mat is confirmed as not an official Horn Hero, and Perrin is also dubious).

 

So, I think the question 'who qualifies for being a Hero' is likely to scoop up a lot of people who actually were Heroes already. Given Hawkwing's remark about Rand/LTT/... always having trouble with women, and given the relatively minor impact the other women had in the official ending, Egwene is certainly a good candidate (I am not sure that necessarily means Gawyn is too). Moiraine has a decent shot at secretly being a Hero from being so darn archetypical (as the Gandalf/Merlin/... figure) while also saving the world a few times over. Etcetera.

[The Fisher King]

Rambo

 

Magnum P.I.

 

Captain Kirk.

 

Cookie Monster.

 

 

 - Fish

[Dagon Thyne]

 

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

Consider that Birgitte knows that even in her oldest memories, there are lives uncounted before that that she cannot remember. She's been around a long time. Yet there are only around a hundred or so Heroes. So, given what we know, old Heroes continue to serve, and new Heroes being added must be exceedingly rare. It's highly doubtful that even one person from the books will be added, let alone half a dozen.

 

[Dagon Thyne]

 

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

Consider that Birgitte knows that even in her oldest memories, there are lives uncounted before that that she cannot remember. She's been around a long time. Yet there are only around a hundred or so Heroes. So, given what we know, old Heroes continue to serve, and new Heroes being added must be exceedingly rare. It's highly doubtful that even one person from the books will be added, let alone half a dozen.

 

But how many of those lives were after the last battle battle of the last rotation?  You have to remember that there are 21000 years between each 'last battle'.  She was prpabably reborn many of those lives between them.  She could easily have become a hero of the horn after fighting the shadow last time the Dark One's prison was broken, 

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I think Egwene and Gawyn will be the eternal couple of the new generation of heros, like Birgette and Gaidal Cain, and be lovquestrioers whenever they are reborn. 

 

Mat will be one definately.  And Perrin, with his Hammer.   And Galad.  and Lan.  I think most of the heros of the last battle will be heros when the next last battle happens. 

 

Then there are ones who join after the last battle.  I mean, there are 4 more ages to go before the wheel begins it's next rotation.  You can not tell me that no one else will earn their places in that time.  Plus, do the old heros still serve or are they released? 

Consider that Birgitte knows that even in her oldest memories, there are lives uncounted before that that she cannot remember. She's been around a long time. Yet there are only around a hundred or so Heroes. So, given what we know, old Heroes continue to serve, and new Heroes being added must be exceedingly rare. It's highly doubtful that even one person from the books will be added, let alone half a dozen.

 

But how many of those lives were after the last battle battle of the last rotation?  You have to remember that there are 21000 years between each 'last battle'.  She was prpabably reborn many of those lives between them.  She could easily have become a hero of the horn after fighting the shadow last time the Dark One's prison was broken, 

Sure, you could add any amount of baseless speculation. But you need evidence if you want your theory to have even the slightest shred of credibility. Look up Russell's Teapot.

[Dagon Thyne]

 

 

You're ignoring that the authors - both of them - explicitly said they were a corrective mechanism. The quote from RJ is there, in the post you quoted. You don't address it at all in your post. That's not relying on one uncertain assumption, that's flat out ignoring evidence to the contrary. As for that "more or less the same function", I don't find it at all odd. Even something as simple as tightening a screw could require one of several different screwdrivers, because not all screws are the same. So people already have multiple tools to do virtually the same job. When you consider a task as complex as "correcting the drift of the Pattern", it's not unreasonable that two tools might be required because they fix different problems, or fix the problem in different ways (and so one might be more appropriate than another).

 

 

Ah, well, I ignored it because my post expanded from the conclusion you were probably right in that they are a corrective mechanism; maybe I should've been more explicit about it.

 

The question then is what makes them different from Ta'veren, because that might help decide who becomes a Hero.

 

 

 

Well Rand most likely will end up along with the heros.  Perhaps all Ta'varen do.  Perhaps Mat and Perrin's souls are like Rand's.  They are special and are reborn to aid the COL in the last battle.

[Suttree]

Well Rand most likely will end up along with the heros. 

 

Per RJ, Rand already is a HotH.