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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
elric

who you think can qualify to join the hero of the horn

  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. who u think qualify to join the hero of the horn ?

    • Lan
      12
    • Nynav
      1
    • Galad
      0
    • Tom
      2
    • Egwain
      3
    • Cadsuan
      0
    • Lan + Nynav
      13
    • other
      1
    • Loyal
      0


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Lan : last son of malkier , the lone warrior who wage a one man war against the shadow, a warden of legendery quality, the best fighter of his time (as we know off)

 

Nynev : THE HEALER , the woman who claim and proove that anything save death can be healed , who heal stilling and madness was believed impossible to heal even in AoL

 

Lan + Nyn: the star crossed lover, the 1 man army against shadow who believe there nothing in this world for him except his impossible war and THE HEALER who penetrate and healed his heart

 

Galad: the personalisation of law and morality, the man who single handadly reform the white cloak, the man who never lied and never took the wrong path no matter the cost

 

Tom: the gray fox , the bard of legends , the master of the game, the queen maker and king killer, the force behind the union of Kair and andor (he save morgez and created the civil war in Kair)

 

Egwain: the youngest and strongest Emiralin ever , the savior of the WT , the bane of the black Ajah and the negator of balefire

 

Cadsuan: the legendary AS by which all AS been measured and found wanting, the AS who will never die as long as there advanture to be taken, the dragon advisor and teacher

 

Loyal: the writer /the singer  / the tree sighter the only ogeir traveler of its time , the one who found the green man , the great tree singer who defy his own mother and lead the ogeir in the LB

 

this are the candidate that jump to my mind , i omitted Perrin and Mat becouse i percieve them as part of the Dragon

 

to my believe Nyn and Lan are a lock as a couple , but i'm torn if its only them 2 or them + Galad

 

i believe that to qualify to be a hero of the horn u need more then simply acomplish a lot, i believe u need a fairytale quality to u, that why i put Galad over Eg and cads, who both had much bigger impact then him but lack his thematic power, i think Nyn + Lan meet both the accomplishment and the fairytale criteria and even more so as a couple/love story, i also think Galad themetic/fairytale quality is strong enough to make him candidate.

 

Cads i believe will end as an AS legend but not an hero

Egwain i believe will share Cads fate, the balefire negation is an horn fitting feat but i feel she wasnt epic long enough to become an hero (died to soon) and that she lack a clear cut fairytale defining definition.

Tom i believe have clear cut fairytale definition -> the bard but not enough accomplishment or streangth in the definition, in contrary to Galad who'se definition is VERY STRONG.

 

to use example from the real world:

Einstain : lock in => the crazy/absent minded genious, he personelize these them if not created it  :)

Howking: lock in -> he living personalisation of the mind over body theme

Ofenhaimer: not sure  "the pacifist who create the worst of weapin and is guilt ridden by it " is his theme and decent one but not as strong as them as Einstain of Howking have.

 

i'm sure there are scientist who can rival these three in accomplishment / intellect (FEW but i bet some exist) but none can match their story value.

 

i added Loyal to the poll, since we now know that not only human are heroes and there atleast wolf heroes who origined from the legend/dreaming of wolves..  there stand to reason other races will have their own Heroes with their own tasks, Loyal is one of the greatest traveler of his time , one of the stronget Tree singer, a great scholar and the only teenager who not only speak at the ogeir great meating but actually swept them and won against a VERY strong orator (his mom), it hard for me to minimize Loyal becouse it should be to an Ogeir standard and not human, but i think that tree singing /scholarship / the speach he made/ meeting the green man... fit into the Ogeir

 

(btw name and places spelling is a bane of mine so if i misspell dont get mad just correct me and i or any mod will edit/fix it :))   )

Edited by elric

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None.

 

Though it's all bound up in my personal theory that things like the Last Battle are the only time it's actually relevant someone's a Hero rather than just a normal soul spun out again and again. Rand is only a Hero so the dumb chaps recognise him on sight when the time comes.

 

Mat? Unnecessary, he doesn't die early enough in the weaving of the third age. Plus Rand's there for recognition already.

Perrin? Idem.

Egwene? Possible, though by the time she died the Horn had done its work - and she had an appointment at SG.

Noal? Useful for saving the second Hornsounder.

 

Now, this is an awfully utilitarian view (you only get to be a Hero if you are useful for summoning), but if the Wheel is truly uncaring, how could it be otherwise?

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Though it's all bound up in my personal theory that things like the Last Battle are the only time it's actually relevant someone's a Hero rather than just a normal soul spun out again and again. Rand is only a Hero so the dumb chaps recognise him on sight when the time comes.

 

 

This is a huge assumption.  When you take the entirety of the Wheel of Time into consideration there is a lot about this world that we do not know.  We do of course know a lot about the third age, we have been given some insight into The Age of Legends (the second age) and Robert Jordan sated that our world is meant to be one of the spokes of The Wheel.  This means that there are four ages, the majority of the ages, that we know absolutely nothing about.  Therefore, it is very possible that the Horn of Valere may be relevant at other times during the turning of the wheel.  The utilitarian hypothesis does not work because Lews Therin Telemon and Gadial Cain are known to be Heroes of the Horn and yet both souls occupy bodies during The Last Battle.  If qualifying as a Hero of the Horn is completely dependent upon being useful in the Last Battle then why are LTT and Cain Heroes of the Horn?  

 

PS.  I did note that you said things LIKE the Last Battle and not the Last Battle only, but by saying this you have opened up infinite possibilities for times when any of the aforementioned characters might be useful for summoning.

 

Mat? Unnecessary, he doesn't die early enough in the weaving of the third age

 

 

We know that Mat aka The Gambler does meet the qualifications to be a Hero but has chosen not to be bound to The Horn.

Edited by Leopoled Boothe

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as i said i view Rand + Mat + Perin as diffrent aspect of the same person /motive -> the Dragon

for me these 3 are actually 1 whole  split into 3.

 

one of my test to check for horn availability is to c if u can minimilize the candidate into 1 charectaristic/aspect he personify.

 

like Leopoled did with : Mat aka The Gambler  :)

 

btw if u have candidate i didnt mentioned or if u disagrea with few of the options i offer please post your opinion :)

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The purpose of the Heroes of the Horn is to function as a corrective mechanism to the drift of the Pattern. In fact, Heroes of the Horn is probably a misnomer - the Horn summoning them is a fringe benefit, not their intended purpose. As to who qualifies, bear in mind that there are very few Heroes (around a hundred or so), so it is unlikely that any significant number of people qualify to be bound, and it is stated that it takes more than just heroism. What has Egwene done to be bound? Discovered some weaves, been a young Amyrlin - remarkable achievements, yes, but what real use would she have as a tool for correcting the drift of the Pattern? Same with any of the people listed, and virtually all the other characters besides. As for reducing the character to a single label, you can do that with any character and any human being, provided you're willing to cut away enough of their personality to make them fit. Mat couldn't be reduced to just "the Gambler" - he was referred to as Son of Battles, Gambler and Trickster, and even those don't account for a lot of him. Perrin isn't just the Wolf King, Thom is more than just a Bard, or a Gleeman, or a player of the Game of Houses. And Rand and Rand alone is the (current) incarnation of the Dragon, not some amalgamation of Rand Mat and Perrin. His two friends were useful, in this turning, but that's not to say they would always be needed, and plenty of other people were needed besides. The Dragon is an incarnation of one soul, and souls cannot be split.

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@elric,

i agree with mr ares, rand/lews therin telamon is one soul,perrin and mat are useful childhood friends,

he cares about them and they care about him,but the three of them are not one entity.

the pattern is balance,and if corrective deeds are the sole criteria needed for maintaining this balance,

surely nynaeve is more suitable to be rand's soulmate than either of them.

Edited by jack of shadows

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minimizing the heroes into a dominant characterisation is just one test of several, and its not just a thing the character excel at but that it reach a level that they are percieved as literally the living avatar of that charecteristic.

 

look at the heroes that mentiond:

Bridgest : she describe herself as Archer , nothing more or nothing less just Archer , we all know she has a LOT MORE to her, but she can be minimized

Paedrig: The PeaceMaker

Mikel : of the PURE HEART (cant Galad lay claim to such a tytle)

Shivan: the HUNTER

Calian: the Chooser

Arthur: can easily be minimized as the Uniter or the conquerer

Amaresu: wielder of the sun sword

Jain Charin :  Farstrider

Rogush: Eagle Eye

Hend : The Striker (and to emphasize it he appear holding an hammer)

 

10 out of the 14 mentioned heroes answer this test , and the other 4 we simply dont know anything about

heroes of the horns are ppl who can survive the trest of time, they are herows that are remembered in troughout milenias , u need a driving force /chareteristic that is strong enough to survive that, it dont imply that they are 1 dimensional character , but that they have atleast 1 uniqe ability/pashion/somethin that make them unforgatable

 

about Rand+ Mat+Perin:

the dragomn prophecy refer to them as well as to rand

Mat is the one who chain the dougther.

Perin is the wolf kng from the senchean prophecies

and i'm sure there other references i dont remember currently.

the shadow consider them as a 3 legged stand , and take great effort in trying to kill either Mat or Perin and by so INSURING his win.

sending his best weapon against Mat (the Golem), not the WT and Emiralin , not Logain but against Mat

Edited by elric

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minimizing the heroes into a dominant characterisation is just one test of several, and its not just a thing the character excel at but that it reach a level that they are percieved as literally the living avatar of that charecteristic.

 

look at the heroes that mentiond:

Bridgest : she describe herself as Archer , nothing more or nothing less just Archer , we all know she has a LOT MORE to her, but she can be minimized

Paedrig: The PeaceMaker

Mikel : of the PURE HEART (cant Galad lay claim to such a tytle)

Shivan: the HUNTER

Calian: the Chooser

Arthur: can easily be minimized as the Uniter or the conquerer

Amaresu: wielder of the sun sword

Jain Charin :  Farstrider

Rogush: Eagle Eye

Hend : The Striker (and to emphasize it he appear holding an hammer)

 

10 out of the 14 mentioned heroes answer this test , and the other 4 we simply dont know anything about

heroes of the horns are ppl who can survive the trest of time, they are herows that are remembered in troughout milenias , u need a driving force /chareteristic that is strong enough to survive that, it dont imply that they are 1 dimensional character , but that they have atleast 1 uniqe ability/pashion/somethin that make them unforgatable

But, as stated, you can do that for literally everyone if you're willing to ignore enough about them, and Mat doesn't fit the bill because he was never just "the Gambler" - that was just the middle one of three phrases the Finns threw at him, and I fail to see how it sums him up better than "Son of Battles" or "Trickster". All you've shown is that a lot of the Heroes (or at least a lot of the ones we know about) have nicknames. That's fairly meaningless. Consider how silly some of these are: Amaresu is the "living avatar" of wielding the sun sword. In that case, Siuan Sanche qualifies as a Hero on the grounds of being the living avatar of riding Bela at some point in the series. Rogosh Eagle Eye tells us literally nothing about who he is and why he is famous. Artur Paendrag Tanreall could be summed up as the Uniter or Conqueror, but his nickname was Hawkwing - again, it tells us nothing. You even point out that "of the Pure Heart" could be applied to Galad, so we have no way to show that Mikel qualifies more strongly for being the "living avatar" than Galad does (and it does rather undermine Galad's chance to be a Hero if his role is already taken).

 

about Rand+ Mat+Perin:

the dragomn prophecy refer to them as well as to rand

Mat is the one who chain the dougther.

Perin is the wolf kng from the senchean prophecies

and i'm sure there other references i dont remember currently.

the shadow consider them as a 3 legged stand , and take great effort in trying to kill either Mat or Perin and by so INSURING his win.

sending his best weapon against Mat (the Golem), not the WT and Emiralin , not Logain but against Mat

The Dragon Prophecies refer to more people besides. Hurin, Ingtar, the Aiel, Tuon, etc. So are they also a part of the same being as Rand? And the gholam wasn't sent against Mat, it went rogue - after Mat became the first person to ever hurt it, it took to hunting him, but it wasn't at the storehouse to kill Mat. Also, the Shadow makes various attempts to kill other characters, and other times cares rather less. Note that Semi is put out to learn that Mat is now a priority target, because she had the opportunity while he was in Ebou Dar and had she known then she would have taken it. In AMoL the Shadow tries to turn the Light's generals against the Light in an effort to ensure the win. So, again, does that make them part of the same person as Rand, or does it show that there are a number of people who have proved essential to the Light's victory? Without Egwene or Moiraine things would be as lost as if Mat or Perrin had been absent.

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  The utilitarian hypothesis does not work because Lews Therin Telemon and Gadial Cain are known to be Heroes of the Horn and yet both souls occupy bodies during The Last Battle.  If qualifying as a Hero of the Horn is completely dependent upon being useful in the Last Battle then why are LTT and Cain Heroes of the Horn?  

 

 

It's weak, in their cases - but getting Birgitte to die at the right time requires Gaidal Cain, and getting Hawkwing to joke around with Rand at Falme requires him to be one too.

 

As to the heroes as corrective mechanism, that seems a duplicate and thus (in my opinion) dubious use. Ta'veren serve said function, and much less specifically. We know of at least 3 of them around in the current time, and given that many people know of the skill and how it's supposed to work, more must have been alive recently (could all be Noal/Jain, I suppose).

 

There are two things we know require heroes: preserving knowledge, such as Birgitte gave to Nynaeve et al., and being summoned by the Horn of Valere. And the former is dubious, since both Rand (via LTT) and old books provide a similar function, though nowhere near as precise in general.

There are things we know heroes also do, such as serving as corrective mechanism, but is that a need, or simply something the Wheel does because it is storing these souls anyway?

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  The utilitarian hypothesis does not work because Lews Therin Telemon and Gadial Cain are known to be Heroes of the Horn and yet both souls occupy bodies during The Last Battle.  If qualifying as a Hero of the Horn is completely dependent upon being useful in the Last Battle then why are LTT and Cain Heroes of the Horn?  

 

 

It's weak, in their cases - but getting Birgitte to die at the right time requires Gaidal Cain, and getting Hawkwing to joke around with Rand at Falme requires him to be one too.

 

As to the heroes as corrective mechanism, that seems a duplicate and thus (in my opinion) dubious use. Ta'veren serve said function, and much less specifically. We know of at least 3 of them around in the current time, and given that many people know of the skill and how it's supposed to work, more must have been alive recently (could all be Noal/Jain, I suppose).

 

There are two things we know require heroes: preserving knowledge, such as Birgitte gave to Nynaeve et al., and being summoned by the Horn of Valere. And the former is dubious, since both Rand (via LTT) and old books provide a similar function, though nowhere near as precise in general.

There are things we know heroes also do, such as serving as corrective mechanism, but is that a need, or simply something the Wheel does because it is storing these souls anyway?

It is a need. Ta'veren are a corrective mechanism, but having one tool in your toolbox doesn't preclude you having others, as one tool doesn't do all jobs. The Heroes are not for passing on knowledge - communicating in T'a'r is all but unheard of outside of Birgitte, thanks to the Precepts, and in the flesh they lack their memories (Birgitte was thrown out bodily in a freak event and lost most of her memories anyway, and Rand was born without his and only got them due to his insanity, plus there's an RJ quote that confirmed Hawkwing didn't know he was a Hero). As for the Horn, it is a human-created artefact that doesn't always exist, isn't always to hand when it does exist, and isn't always believed to work even when it is in existence and to hand (sure it's said to do miraculous things, but there's all sorts of folklore and superstition out there). Plus, of course, they're said to be a corrective mechanism: "But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms." Plus, that quote does rather imply (with the "not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues" bit) that showing up at the Last Battle to "kick ass and take names" is not something they are designed for and not something they would all be particularly well suited for.

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thank you for the phrase "living Avatar" i struggle to find the right term to describe my point and that phrase nail it :)

 

about Rand+ Mat+ Perin

the SHADOW itself refer to them as the 3 legged stand !

meanning that they are 3 part of the SAME CONSTRACT

cut 1 leg and the stand will fall....

and btw where the Dragon Prophecy refer to anyone but the dragon ?

 

 

yes you can minimize anyone to a single definition , but not anyone can be the living avater (again thank you for this phrase) of that definition.

look at our fables and myths:

there are MANY heroes who can be minimize as "the strong" but only 1 is the living Avatar of that term -> Hercules

there been many just and good kings but only 1 Arthur

there been many uber athletic basketball player but only 1 "His Airness" -> Jordan

Ty cob was the best baseball player the the BIG BABY (babe ruth) is THE PLAYEr and his legend grow as time go on

an hero of the horn need a time defying Archtype, to be a living Avatar of something (ability/skill/artifect...) that will make ppl remember him as the eons go by

Edited by elric

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  The utilitarian hypothesis does not work because Lews Therin Telemon and Gadial Cain are known to be Heroes of the Horn and yet both souls occupy bodies during The Last Battle.  If qualifying as a Hero of the Horn is completely dependent upon being useful in the Last Battle then why are LTT and Cain Heroes of the Horn?  

 

 

It's weak, in their cases - but getting Birgitte to die at the right time requires Gaidal Cain, and getting Hawkwing to joke around with Rand at Falme requires him to be one too.

 

As to the heroes as corrective mechanism, that seems a duplicate and thus (in my opinion) dubious use. Ta'veren serve said function, and much less specifically. We know of at least 3 of them around in the current time, and given that many people know of the skill and how it's supposed to work, more must have been alive recently (could all be Noal/Jain, I suppose).

 

There are two things we know require heroes: preserving knowledge, such as Birgitte gave to Nynaeve et al., and being summoned by the Horn of Valere. And the former is dubious, since both Rand (via LTT) and old books provide a similar function, though nowhere near as precise in general.

There are things we know heroes also do, such as serving as corrective mechanism, but is that a need, or simply something the Wheel does because it is storing these souls anyway?

It is a need. Ta'veren are a corrective mechanism, but having one tool in your toolbox doesn't preclude you having others, as one tool doesn't do all jobs. The Heroes are not for passing on knowledge - communicating in T'a'r is all but unheard of outside of Birgitte, thanks to the Precepts, and in the flesh they lack their memories (Birgitte was thrown out bodily in a freak event and lost most of her memories anyway, and Rand was born without his and only got them due to his insanity, plus there's an RJ quote that confirmed Hawkwing didn't know he was a Hero). As for the Horn, it is a human-created artefact that doesn't always exist, isn't always to hand when it does exist, and isn't always believed to work even when it is in existence and to hand (sure it's said to do miraculous things, but there's all sorts of folklore and superstition out there). Plus, of course, they're said to be a corrective mechanism: "But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms." Plus, that quote does rather imply (with the "not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues" bit) that showing up at the Last Battle to "kick ass and take names" is not something they are designed for and not something they would all be particularly well suited for.

 

 

Passing on knowledge is not a standard part of the Hero toolbox - but it is something that noone else can really do the same way. Even if it's only done in violation of the precepts, it's still done.

 

Now, my argument indeed relies on one uncertain assumption, that having two tools for more or less the exact same function is odd. We have, however, a possible extra argument: we know the two most forcibly correcting people of the Third Age (Rand and Hawkwing) are both Heroes and Ta'veren. That, to me, seems rather excessive if Heroes are already a corrective mechanism... but if Heroes have the Horn of Valere as primary function, it makes sense a Hero out to correct the world would also be Ta'veren.

 

Put another way, I think in terms of conserving detail; if the Wheel only needs to correct itself and/or keep itself on the right path, and Ta'veren have that as essentially their sole function, I'd use those. Heroes also serve as corrective mechanism, but what makes them special are their extra functions (such as the Horn). Seeing as I argue most of the current crop of characters cannot perform those extra functions (at least, not in the third age), it makes sense the Wheel would keep them for simple Ta'veren operation while hiring other recruits (souls stuck waiting for reincarnation at Tarmon Gai'don) for the extra functions.

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thank you for the phrase "living Avatar" i struggle to find the right term to describe my point and that phrase nail it :)

 

about Rand+ Mat+ Perin

the SHADOW itself refer to them as the 3 legged stand !

meanning that they are 3 part of the SAME CONSTRACT

cut 1 leg and the stand will fall....

and btw where the Dragon Prophecy refer to anyone but the dragon ?

 

 

yes you can minimize anyone to a single definition , but not anyone can be the living avater (again thank you for this phrase) of that definition.

look at our fables and myths:

there are MANY heroes who can be minimize as "the strong" but only 1 is the living Avatar of that term -> Hercules

there been many just and good kings but only 1 Arthur

there been many uber athletic basketball player but only 1 "His Airness" -> Jordan

Ty cob was the best baseball player the the BIG BABY (babe ruth) is THE PLAYEr and his legend grow as time go on

an hero of the horn need a time defying Archtype, to be a living Avatar of something (ability/skill/artifect...) that will make ppl remember him as the eons go by

Firstly, "living avatar" was your own phrase (see your opening sentence of post #8). Secondly, you're attempting to use a metaphor as a literal truth - killing one was considered akin to removing one leg of a tripod, and while it's true that removing one of them would have been disastrous the same could be said of other characters too. Thirdly, there are several references to other characters, some more oblique than others. "When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown." The fox being Mat, the raven being Tuon. If it's not a reference to Tuon, it's not a reference to Mat either, and the Wolf King is not a reference to Perrin. "Five ride forth, and four return". Rand, Mat, Perrin, Hurin, and the non-returning Ingtar. "The People of the Dragon" are the Aiel. "The Reborn One, marked and bleeding, dances the sword in dreams and mist, chains the Shadowsworn to his will", references to both Rand and Asmodean. It also, obviously, has references to Shai'tan. So you can't have it both ways - either all these people are Rand, or just Rand is.[Removed] Some people probably jump to Solomon rather than Arthur as an example of a just and wise king. If you asked someone in China, or Saudi Arabia, or South Africa for their examples of a personification of "the strong" or "the just king", they aren't necessarily going to jump to English and Greek legends over their own. Baseball and basketball are references with little relevance outside America, and comparing the actions of sports stars from within living memory is a little different to that of mythical or historical figures whose exploits, genuine or otherwise, are told of centuries later.

 

 

 

 

  The utilitarian hypothesis does not work because Lews Therin Telemon and Gadial Cain are known to be Heroes of the Horn and yet both souls occupy bodies during The Last Battle.  If qualifying as a Hero of the Horn is completely dependent upon being useful in the Last Battle then why are LTT and Cain Heroes of the Horn?  

 

 

It's weak, in their cases - but getting Birgitte to die at the right time requires Gaidal Cain, and getting Hawkwing to joke around with Rand at Falme requires him to be one too.

 

As to the heroes as corrective mechanism, that seems a duplicate and thus (in my opinion) dubious use. Ta'veren serve said function, and much less specifically. We know of at least 3 of them around in the current time, and given that many people know of the skill and how it's supposed to work, more must have been alive recently (could all be Noal/Jain, I suppose).

 

There are two things we know require heroes: preserving knowledge, such as Birgitte gave to Nynaeve et al., and being summoned by the Horn of Valere. And the former is dubious, since both Rand (via LTT) and old books provide a similar function, though nowhere near as precise in general.

There are things we know heroes also do, such as serving as corrective mechanism, but is that a need, or simply something the Wheel does because it is storing these souls anyway?

It is a need. Ta'veren are a corrective mechanism, but having one tool in your toolbox doesn't preclude you having others, as one tool doesn't do all jobs. The Heroes are not for passing on knowledge - communicating in T'a'r is all but unheard of outside of Birgitte, thanks to the Precepts, and in the flesh they lack their memories (Birgitte was thrown out bodily in a freak event and lost most of her memories anyway, and Rand was born without his and only got them due to his insanity, plus there's an RJ quote that confirmed Hawkwing didn't know he was a Hero). As for the Horn, it is a human-created artefact that doesn't always exist, isn't always to hand when it does exist, and isn't always believed to work even when it is in existence and to hand (sure it's said to do miraculous things, but there's all sorts of folklore and superstition out there). Plus, of course, they're said to be a corrective mechanism: "But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms." Plus, that quote does rather imply (with the "not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues" bit) that showing up at the Last Battle to "kick ass and take names" is not something they are designed for and not something they would all be particularly well suited for.

 

 

Passing on knowledge is not a standard part of the Hero toolbox - but it is something that noone else can really do the same way. Even if it's only done in violation of the precepts, it's still done.

 

Now, my argument indeed relies on one uncertain assumption, that having two tools for more or less the exact same function is odd. We have, however, a possible extra argument: we know the two most forcibly correcting people of the Third Age (Rand and Hawkwing) are both Heroes and Ta'veren. That, to me, seems rather excessive if Heroes are already a corrective mechanism... but if Heroes have the Horn of Valere as primary function, it makes sense a Hero out to correct the world would also be Ta'veren.

 

Put another way, I think in terms of conserving detail; if the Wheel only needs to correct itself and/or keep itself on the right path, and Ta'veren have that as essentially their sole function, I'd use those. Heroes also serve as corrective mechanism, but what makes them special are their extra functions (such as the Horn). Seeing as I argue most of the current crop of characters cannot perform those extra functions (at least, not in the third age), it makes sense the Wheel would keep them for simple Ta'veren operation while hiring other recruits (souls stuck waiting for reincarnation at Tarmon Gai'don) for the extra functions.

You're ignoring that the authors - both of them - explicitly said they were a corrective mechanism. The quote from RJ is there, in the post you quoted. You don't address it at all in your post. That's not relying on one uncertain assumption, that's flat out ignoring evidence to the contrary. As for that "more or less the same function", I don't find it at all odd. Even something as simple as tightening a screw could require one of several different screwdrivers, because not all screws are the same. So people already have multiple tools to do virtually the same job. When you consider a task as complex as "correcting the drift of the Pattern", it's not unreasonable that two tools might be required because they fix different problems, or fix the problem in different ways (and so one might be more appropriate than another).

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
unnecessary

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didnt remembered i used it first :)

 

"

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.

"

how it NOT referring to Perrin ?????

 

if the tripod was only a metaphor why wasnt it used against ANY other char ?

with all due respect to Perrin till the very end he had very minor impact, all he did was rouse 1 valley (2 river) and then go around and deal with the prophet and the remain of the Shayido, not even close to Egy deeds and much less impactfull then even Darlin and Dubreme who help very volatil position for Rand.

yet from all P.O.V (Point of View) we are presented by both from the light AND the shadow Mat and Perin are the TOP priority. and they are the only character the shadow gave a world wide kill on sight order about.

personaly i believe that:

"

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

"

this is about Perrin (the right hand) who falters when Pail was taken and was willing to sacrifice the world for her/ or about Perrin battle with slayer in the WT where he lost and hopper died

and Mat (the left hand) who strayed into Ghanjy tower when in the dark prophecies he suppose to be lost forever

 

they both also mention in the dark prophecies

"

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,8 and
the First Among Vermin9 lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who
will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.
Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

"

(brian sanderson remarked that the broken wolf is Perrin spirit guide)

when the prophecies reffer to other char it was with connection to the Dragon, asmodean as someone the dragon chain , the 5 and 4 as ppl who ride with the dragon....

only Mat and Perrin are mentioned by themselve and not as part of the dragon actions

 

living Avatar as a test for horn heroes:

 

Salomon is in NO way an Avatar of just king :))) , of WISE sure !!! of just one -> nope :)), a better non europe example would be Celach A Din (known as Seladin to native english speaker)

and remember that the heros are reborn so Hercules and Samson can be the same soul/ Hero century apart

if i ask someone in China he may say the monkey is the trickster while an African will say Ananasy and nordic will say Loky , which create NO contradiction couse the heroes are reborning and recreating their legend trough the age. it just 3 diffrent name/incranation of the same hero.

Anla the wise is: "ask Deby " advise column auther , ask around the world and c which is more known Ask Debby or Pelle or Muhamad Ali... (i used sport figures from roughly the same time she was published)

 

 

and a side note :i'm not american, english aint my native toungue and i read most of serie translated (which is why i have such trouble in spelling names :))   ).

Edited by elric

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"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known."

how it NOT referring to Perrin ?????

That's exactly my point - the reference to Perrin is as clear as the references to any other character, so the idea that the Prophecies refer only to the Dragon is inaccurate.

 

if the tripod was only a metaphor why wasnt it used against ANY other char ?

Why would it be? It was used, what, once? And it's not like you can remove seven of the twenty three legs and still call it a tripod (or even expect it to fall).

with all due respect to Perrin till the very end he had very minor impact, all he did was rouse 1 valley (2 river) and then go around and deal with the prophet and the remain of the Shayido, not even close to Egy deeds and much less impactfull then even Darlin and Dubreme who help very volatil position for Rand.

That doesn't help your point. Either Perrin is necessary for victory (in which case, stopping him makes sense - even stopping him before he does anything), or he has a minor impact and so it makes no sense that killing him would topple the tripod. 

when the prophecies reffer to other char it was with connection to the Dragon, asmodean as someone the dragon chain , the 5 and 4 as ppl who ride with the dragon....

only Mat and Perrin are mentioned by themselve and not as part of the dragon actions

Firstly, we must bear in mind that we have seen only snippets of a document that, according to RJ, would be some 3-400 pages typed out in full. Secondly, while true, that's also something you hadn't asked for before. It's called moving the goalposts.

 

living Avatar as a test for horn heroes:

 

Salomon is in NO way an Avatar of just king :))) , of WISE sure !!! of just one -> nope :)), a better non europe example would be Celach A Din (known as Seladin to native english speaker)

What injustice is Solomon remembered for? Moreover, what justice or wisdom is King Arthur remembered for?

and remember that the heros are reborn so Hercules and Samson can be the same soul/ Hero century apart

Sure, but that argument doesn't really go anywhere. Fundamentally, the question is whether the "living avatar" test is a relevant one to apply, and this is made redundant if any multiple of the same concept is dismissed - especially as the reverse, not being a clear cut avatar can also be dismissed due to lack of evidence (see: those Heroes we know nothing about). It cannot be shown that the Heroes do not fit these moulds, it cannot be shown that they do. It is both unfalsifiable and unverifiable.

 

and a side note :i'm not american, english aint my native toungue and i read most of serie translated (which is why i have such trouble in spelling names :))   ).

I didn't say you were, nor did I intend to imply it.

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The idea of Rand, Mat and Perrin all being aspects of the the same individual and each containing a portion of The Dragon's soul is an interesting idea and it is one that I, myself considered when I began reading the Wheel of Time.  However, Robert Jordan, himself has debunked this theory in stating that a soul cannot be divided.  Therefore, it would be impossible for all three boys to be The Dragon.  So while it is an interesting idea the author of the series has confirmed that it just isn't so.  

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as i said i nevr argue with the Author :)

 

another fav theory (and defendable one) down the drain :(

btw  u have link to this saying ?

 

1000 wife /let cut the baby ruling /my father torment u with wheeps i will toment u with scorpions (his son speach to the ppl)..., but Solomon is NOT remembered for just or injust he is remembered for wisdom.

Arthur is not remembered for wisdom he is remembered for justice and the ideal of the knight -> protect the innocent...

 

the living Avatar is one of SEVERAL tests! that i put my candidate trough.

the strongest living Avatar is Galad but notice he aint my 1st  pick, it a combination between accomplishment and personality

an hero of the horn in my opinion is an hero who can stand the test of time!, a legend to be remembered, beeing a living Avatar is 1 of the tools that help u accomplish that.

 

took Vlad Tpach the Impaler the Dracul for example

great leader, great general, defender of east europe against the Othomsn invasion.... i bet there been atleast few more european leaders of probably equal feats.

but Vlad become a living Avatar of cruelty (unjustified in my opinion) but he become one.

and now hundreds year after his death he still leave in our mind and memory, and his legend keep growing and becoming stronger.

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You're ignoring that the authors - both of them - explicitly said they were a corrective mechanism. The quote from RJ is there, in the post you quoted. You don't address it at all in your post. That's not relying on one uncertain assumption, that's flat out ignoring evidence to the contrary. As for that "more or less the same function", I don't find it at all odd. Even something as simple as tightening a screw could require one of several different screwdrivers, because not all screws are the same. So people already have multiple tools to do virtually the same job. When you consider a task as complex as "correcting the drift of the Pattern", it's not unreasonable that two tools might be required because they fix different problems, or fix the problem in different ways (and so one might be more appropriate than another).

 

 

Ah, well, I ignored it because my post expanded from the conclusion you were probably right in that they are a corrective mechanism; maybe I should've been more explicit about it.

 

The question then is what makes them different from Ta'veren, because that might help decide who becomes a Hero.

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As for Arthur's remembrance; he is considered the medieval source for chivalry, courage, honour and duty. He fought the corrupt, the callous, the cruel, the vicious; he protected the old, the young, the rich, the poor alike. He is the bench mark for all Western leaders since his time, and is also the lesson that even the most generous, and wise can make mistakes, and that nothing lasts forever.

 

By the way, my pick is Lan. It is he whom deserves to be a new Hero of the Horn; his story arc and performance in the Last Battle is precisely what I knew was foreshadowed all the way back in book 5, when he charged Lanfear. 

Edited by wotfan4472

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I don't know if any of them would be likely candidates.  My pick would have been Mat probably, especially as he seems to be known as gambler/trickster/son of battles from his past lives already.  But as we know he doesn't become a Hero of the Horn, I would choose Lan with Nynaeve.  I think Lan is a better candidate than Nynaeve, but their story together does have that fairytale quality (which I think someone else already commented on), and I think it would be especially nice for them, as otherwise they are only going to have a relatively short time together before Lan grows old and dies.

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I don't know if any of them would be likely candidates.  My pick would have been Mat probably, especially as he seems to be known as gambler/trickster/son of battles from his past lives already.  But as we know he doesn't become a Hero of the Horn, I would choose Lan with Nynaeve.  I think Lan is a better candidate than Nynaeve, but their story together does have that fairytale quality (which I think someone else already commented on), and I think it would be especially nice for them, as otherwise they are only going to have a relatively short time together before Lan grows old and dies.

 

I do agree it makes some sense; I would add that they had fairly similar and strong bonds with Rand.

 

The only people who, for significant amounts of time, seemed concerned with teaching Rand to be the best for himself (rather than being good enough while saving the world properly, which seems Cadsuane's schtick, or just concerned with Rand being alright without necessarily trying to be a teacher, which Min did).

In other words, Nynaeve seemed the most explicit in combining loving Rand with wanting to teach him the right thing (rather mother-like; even progressing from telling baby-Rhand in teotw what not to do, to helping him make his dreams true from about WH). And Lan, of course, seemed to give the advice of a similar type as Tam finally managed to do properly in TGS, about how to face his destiny with head held high (my link to Tam, of course, implying his father-like properties).

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after some rereading i'm adding 1 more option and editing the starting post ( to add his qualification).

 

if u have candidate u want me to add simply post them and the reasoning /qualification for the title.

 

Mat is out (was told he not an hero)

personally i feel Perrin should fall under Mat category , but i'm open to argument claiming diffrently .

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I just edited the Poll with the correct spelling :) 

 

Something to keep in mind when discussing this is that Maria recently said there were LESS Heroes in the flesh than there were pre-aMoL. 

 

That means at least one Hero died at the Last Battle. 

 

As Birgitte was also reborn out at the end, it suggests that possibly two or more Heroes died. 

 

Also, since people seem to think so: Mat didn't CHOOSE not to be a Hero. He just...isn't. (I don't know why he isn't, but there we have it.)

 

You don't choose to be a Hero or not, it just happens. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 2000
 
BETH SILVER FROM AUSTIN, TX
Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in WOT? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabbaticals?
 
ROBERT JORDAN
In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a Hero linked to the Wheel.
Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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Something to keep in mind when discussing this is that Maria recently said there were LESS Heroes in the flesh than there were pre-aMoL. 

 

 

Interesting; the most obvious hero types (Moiraine, Perrin, Mat, Lan, Nynaeve) didn't die. Egwene might be one, which would make the proper less (if only by one), but what other options do we have?

 

I am assuming, of course, the Heroes are on the side of good. Otherwise, Moridin and Demandred would be decent choices for dead ones, too.

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