Quality Discussion Thread

[Lord Matt]

@flinn- Yeah, a bunch of the theories were pretty wild and out there, and I'm not saying those exact theories should have been incorporated. I'm only saying that I think some people here would have put a lot more heart into the project than Brandon did (in my honest opinion. I'm not trying to sway the opinions of others, I'm only giving my own.)

 

@Razumikhin- Okay, so she repaired the fractures. That is quite an achievement (no sarcasm, though that statement kind of feels like it could be). However, I don't feel as though the fractures in reality were portrayed as a large enough problem to be considered on equal ground with Egwene's death. I know I worded that very poorly, but I can't think of a better way to do it. Hopefully it makes sense to everyone, I'm very tired at the moment.

 

@papertiger- I agree that he does get credit for finishing it. I do. But simply finishing it wasn't enough. There are many people who COULD have finished it. Again, in my own honest opinion, I don't think he gave the sort of effort that should have been given a story of this magnitude. And if he did, then I simply don't believe that he, as a professional author, is an adequate one.

[Suttree]

What makes you say Egwene couldn't pull off that weave from the stone even with an item of power like Vora's wand? She is certainly dexterous enough and we have seen her split weaves impressively.

[Ruth]

I think it is important to remember when bashing Brandon that he worked with Harriet and Team Jordan very very closely on these novels. Harriet has acknowledged that it was her responsibility to take Brandon's writing and "meld" it to fit RJ's writing style and to follow his purposes for the characters. It was not easy for Brandon to write these three lengthy books not just because it was a huge amount of work but he also had constant oversite and editing of every word and every arc he wrote. These last three books were a team effort and the people closest to RJ were guiding it all of the way. I would never have taken this job and most writers wouldn't have taken it on either. Brandon was allowed virtually no creativity in this work. I am a fan who is very happy to have these final books. I can see other ways this tale could have ended but the way it was designed by this group of RJ intimates to complete the tale is satisfying for me. I accept this is not true for all.

[Tha Spider]

I felt like this book wasn't enough.  I felt like BS spent too much time on battle tactics and descriptions rather than story lines and what not.  At the end of the book I felt like I missed part of the story, or that something just doesn't fit.  I can't say what exactly.  Another thing is that RJ is the author that I fell in love with the first 11 books and I feel like I really really really would have liked to know how he would have ended it.  Its been eating me up inside, wondering what subtle, but at the same time huge, differences RJ would have written. 

 

On another note I found some character arcs unfulfilled.  Would Tuon force Mat to go back to war with Seachan or would he settle down somewhere quiet like he always claimed he would? Would Perrin go back to be a lord at the Two Rivers?  What about Faile and how she became queen of Saldaea?  

 

I just feel like I still have so many questions and want to read so much more about the characters.  Oh well though

[Lord Matt]

I felt like this book wasn't enough.  I felt like BS spent too much time on battle tactics and descriptions rather than story lines and what not.  At the end of the book I felt like I missed part of the story, or that something just doesn't fit.  I can't say what exactly.  Another thing is that RJ is the author that I fell in love with the first 11 books and I feel like I really really really would have liked to know how he would have ended it.  Its been eating me up inside, wondering what subtle, but at the same time huge, differences RJ would have written. 

 

On another note I found some character arcs unfulfilled.  Would Tuon force Mat to go back to war with Seachan or would he settle down somewhere quiet like he always claimed he would? Would Perrin go back to be a lord at the Two Rivers?  What about Faile and how she became queen of Saldaea?  

 

I just feel like I still have so many questions and want to read so much more about the characters.  Oh well though

 

We shouldn't have to say "oh well though". About anything. If I had to generalize my earlier post I guess that's the major point I was trying to make. For those of us who have spent up to 2 decades on this series, I feel like we deserved more- more effort, to be precise. This entire project was rushed, and it shows.

[Aver]

I think it is important to remember when bashing Brandon that he worked with Harriet and Team Jordan very very closely on these novels. Harriet has acknowledged that it was her responsibility to take Brandon's writing and "meld" it to fit RJ's writing style and to follow his purposes for the characters. It was not easy for Brandon to write these three lengthy books not just because it was a huge amount of work but he also had constant oversite and editing of every word and every arc he wrote. These last three books were a team effort and the people closest to RJ were guiding it all of the way. I would never have taken this job and most writers wouldn't have taken it on either. Brandon was allowed virtually no creativity in this work. I am a fan who is very happy to have these final books. I can see other ways this tale could have ended but the way it was designed by this group of RJ intimates to complete the tale is satisfying for me. I accept this is not true for all.

Is there a quote from Brandon on how he had virtually no creativity allowed? Look how he handled the Black tower arc he made Androl the preeminent Ashaman and he nerfed Logain. I think he probably had more creative leeway than you think. 

 

Most writers would not have taken it on? I can see why a writer would turn down finishing the series if offered. It would be a huge undertaking and would require a lot of work to tie up all the threads properly. But I can also see the upside, a potential author could make a lot of money finishing this series, and their name would also be attached to one of the biggest fantasy series of all time. A potential author could also easily open up millions of readers to their own books by finishing the series. I suppose we really don't know, I don't think that anyone else was offered the job before Brandon was chosen.

 

Also even if he did have people peeking over his shoulder the quality of the books are still his responsibility,  his name is going on the book cover not team Jordans.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

Mr Ares

 

 

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency

Although I agree with this, the problem becomes (with this specific example), Eg spends 4 books trying to become a real Amrylin to the rebel AS, and 1 chapter that covers at best 2 weeks is supposed to be enough for the Tower AS to choose her? The extra stuff was needed here, and still barely made it believable (imo)

One chapter laid most of the groundwork. Part of the problem in Salidar was getting them to accept her as a real Amyrlin, not a puppet. It only really took one chapter to shift the balance of power - the meeting with the nobles in Murandy. When she was captured, she was already accepted as Amyrlin, she already had down the attitude, Elaida was demonstrably a bad choice. That one chapter in KoD then had her win the acceptance of novices, Accepted and AS, and showing that she could be seen as a leader by all levels of the WT. Some of the stuff TGS added actually undermined that believability - for example, Egwene being asked for her advice on Warders is frequently cited as coming across as silly, given that it is being asked by an experienced AS to a girl who has never had a Warder. Really, after KoD what needed to happen? Elaida needed to go, the Seanchan needed to attack, the BA needed to be purged, the WT to be unified.

I agree the Warder bit seems ridiculous, although I now want to reread it to see if their's any bearing on how she acted when Gawyn died.

 

I would suggest that the structure of tGS in terms of interplaying Rand and Egs leadership arcs works well and doesn't need that much altering, in an ideal world I'd move Perrins leadership issues into the same area, chronologically it's at much the same time and also Avi's leadership arc. This would create some problems with the Perrin/Eg meet in TAR (which has been referenced several times in MoL so can't be cut altogether), but I'm sure it could be worked out.

 

This bit in the Tower also has Eg understand the Aiel acceptance of pain which also mirrored Rands journey, although both had regressed a little by aMoL.

While it is true that, structurally, TGS works well and doesn't need a lot of alteration, that really is part of the problem. TGS works, the others don't. RJ claimed he couldn't split the book because he could write two semi-coherent books, or one coherent one and one incoherent one, but not two coherent books. Sure enough, we got a good book in TGS, and then two rather more problematic entries in ToM and AMoL. The strengths of that first one aren't replicated, but the weaknesses are.

 

 

@Suttree - *stubbornly stamps foot* I still don't like Eg, as a person. I strongly doubt we'd be friends (at least not after about tSR onwards, before that Eg was one of my favourite characters), but she is a good leader, it's many of the things that make her a good leader that make me doubt we'd be friends - I think RJ and BS have taken the lonely at the top thing extremely literally).

 

Honestly, I struggle (so it is a change) with the book split argument. I think I agree that RJ could have done it in 2, but at the expense of plot-arcs that I've really enjoyed. I think that when I looked up book lengths, if the 2 books were the same length as the longest you'd actually only need to cut about 1/2 of 1 of the 3 of them for BS to do the same and structurally this would work better, it might also have helped solve some of the flip-flopping Rand and Eg demonstrate in FoM if it had been written in sequence *shrugs*.

 

The problem with cutting significant amounts from the books that we have, is that the bits that you (and others) have identified as filler are some of the best written bits of the last 3 books, some rival the best bits in the series. Off the top of my head the 4 areas that are commonly stated as filler (feel free to say if their are more) are: Perrin in ToM, Nyns testing, Avi's Rhuidean and Mat's Hinderstrapp (sometimes Eg in tGS, although that argument disappeared when it turned out that a lot of that was RJ ;) I guess Eg in ToM could be included, although the Mesanna thing was set up by Verin in GS so..?). With the exception of Hinderstrap they represent some of the best writing that BS has done in these 3 books. I 'liked' Perrin and Faile as characters for the first time since tSR, I think the epilogue suggests that Nyn has developed more as a person under BS than RJ would have taken the time to do (in and of themselves they weren't bad things to happen, but takes stuff out of the book RJ could have written).

 

In a bit more detail regarding Perrin - I don't know how much was outlined to get him from rescuing Faile to FoM. If you think of the WC, they've been in the books a long time, but not played major parts. It's possible that they (in RJs possible version) would have been present somewhere, in the same way that the SF were present somewhere and therefore that entire section with Perrin could have been left out. But the section works quite well, it starts closing things that have been present since tEotW, I don't regret that at all and actually enjoyed it.

 

- It's also more likely that the Wolf-training would have been more or less left out (with a possible throw-away line (suggested by some posters as an explanation) about sleepless nights or something in a similar vein to Egs discovery of cuendillar) and it left to the reader to assume Perrins sudden mastery of the dream (not necessarily a better or worse way of doing it, but certainly shorter). But without all the time spent I would have remained indifferent to Perrin and Faile and had no sense of relief or joy when they found each other on the battlefield. 3 books ago it would have never, ever have happened (to a similar extent of the redemption of certain characters in GRRMs books were never, ever going to happen). Again it seems to me that the confrontation of Perrin and Lanfear has been set up since tDR with Mins warning about beautiful women, so at some stage the Dream had to be mastered.

 

I'll leave it here, in many ways I'm still digesting the last book. The 4 battlefronts has clearly been set up with the 4 generals since however many books ago, for this reason Mats absence is also expected for this early part of the Battle. I appear to be in the minority in really enjoying the different povs in the 'Last Battle' and seeing so many of the characters we've met over the past 14 books, so I'd actually object to cutting out 150 pages of it! (Of course if it had never been written, I wouldn't know to miss it).

 

 

So like I said mixed thoughts...

 I dont understand how you can say RJ could have done it in two books.

 

How many books did Perrin wander around and accomplishing almost nothing? If we had gotten two books I would have been utterly and entirely disappointed with the series. Look at all the complaining now about threads not being finished? To do it in two books, in RJ flourishing style, we would get the last battle.

I think RJ could very easily have done it in two books. Consider that the books Perrin spent wandering around doing nothing were middle books. You're not comparing like with like - Sanderson's end to RJ's middle. Consider RJ's own climaxes as a better indicator of what he would likely do with his climax to the series. Consider also the way information is conveyed, which is important. How many repetitious fighting scenes could be cut from this last book? Consider that some people were left with nothing to do - Fain, for instance. That would likely be less conspicuous with a more compressed narrative. If his going to SG in ToM were followed up by his death two or three chapters later, it would be less glaring. Between these three books, you could probably make a book's worth of cuts. Brandon is not a master of conciseness. That much is obvious not only from here, but also from his own books - look at Way of Kings, for example. Didn't need to be a thousand pages long.

 

 

Problem with BS is he mainly just writes fan pulp fiction as fast as he can.  Was he the right guy to finish this series?  Oh hell no.  Could they have found better to finish this series?  Easily?  Could they have found better to be WILLING to finish this series?  Probably not.

 

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

Have you read his other works?

 

 I think his other stuff is pretty good. I thought Way of Kings is great. I cant see how any fantasy reader wouldnt like Way of Kings.

Well, other fantasy readers might have an appreciation of good prose or great characterisation, or like reads that aren't a couple of hundred pages too long.

 

 

How the hell are some of you blaming the ending on RJ?!

 

He didn't write the book.  He didn't write the book before this.  And he didn't write the book before that one.  The only thing you can blame on RJ is the fate of certain characters.  Dont think its right that Rand lived?  That's on RJ.  Don't like that Egwene died?  That's on RJ.  Don't like HOW Egwene died?  That's BS.

 

This is the reason that he originally wanted to burn the notes.

This is patently absurd.  Robert had notes and a clear vision for where he wanted the story to conclude and Brandon's job was to get it there as closely as possible.  I think Robert takes more than a majority of the blame for the conclusion falling short.  And it did fall short.  

RJ had notes, but those notes were not an exhaustive outline of everything that had to happen and how it would - Brandon has admitted as much. There are plenty of times where he had a conclusion to work towards, but how he got there was up to him. You are the one making patently absurd claims, because what you say does not tally with on the record statements about the reality of the notes. And even if you change nothing about what happens, only about how it is worded in the books, that can change an awful lot. Brandon was responsible for a huge amount of the ending we got, of all of the last three books, in terms of what happens, how it happens, and how it is written about (that last most of all). That doesn't mean all the failings of the last book are his, but a great many of them are.

 

 

So there seems to be some odd revionist history going on with certain fans about the slow down during that tPoD-CoT stretch. Even as RJ lost his way the quality of writing never droppped. Not only that but big things happen such as the Cleansing, the Damona Campaign etc. The whole "things happen" again under Brandon narrative ignores the fact that KoD had already fixed the meandering and had the story arc poised to wrap up. It is strange that certain people don't get that the story arc dictated the chnage in pace, noth the author. If anything Brandon was forced to stretch things out after the split was decided and it shows with the bloat and filler.

 

You keep repeating that, but I don't think you have much in the way of evidence to support your argument that the series was back on track with KoD, or that KoD set the pace for the next bunch of books. Up until aCoS, the WoT felt as if it had a certain sense of urgency to it. Things needed to get done, and needed to get done ASAP. So despite this pacing brought on by the prior books, RJ still managed to give us three books of nothing but filler. And I see no reason to assume that the books following KoD would have picked up the pace.

There is plenty to show that KoD was pointing things in the right direction. And RJ was the one who claimed that there would be one more book after KoD. So the series drawing to a close (and thus we as readers are getting ending rather than middle) and the author saying something he never said before - that there is one more book coming - are solid indicators that there probably aren't going to be dozens more books, and that what is left thus has to pick up the pace. If anything, there is nothing indicating that the pace will slow down - every indicator is that it will continue to increase.

[sleepinghour]

 

I think it is important to remember when bashing Brandon that he worked with Harriet and Team Jordan very very closely on these novels. Harriet has acknowledged that it was her responsibility to take Brandon's writing and "meld" it to fit RJ's writing style and to follow his purposes for the characters. It was not easy for Brandon to write these three lengthy books not just because it was a huge amount of work but he also had constant oversite and editing of every word and every arc he wrote. These last three books were a team effort and the people closest to RJ were guiding it all of the way. I would never have taken this job and most writers wouldn't have taken it on either. Brandon was allowed virtually no creativity in this work. I am a fan who is very happy to have these final books. I can see other ways this tale could have ended but the way it was designed by this group of RJ intimates to complete the tale is satisfying for me. I accept this is not true for all.

Is there a quote from Brandon on how he had virtually no creativity allowed? Look how he handled the Black tower arc he made Androl the preeminent Ashaman and he nerfed Logain. I think he probably had more creative leeway than you think. 

 

No, on the contrary, Brandon said Harriet gave him a lot of creative leeway. Half came from him and half from RJ. It was Brandon's idea to reunite Rand with Tam, the Pevara-Androl storyline was his, Nynaeve's AS test was also his idea...

 

Question: Did you have to invent any of it yourself, or did Jordan leave a lot of it for you?

Brandon: He left some of it for me, and then I had to make the rest. As you’re reading through the books, probably about half and half. Half will be stuff that he wrote notes on, half will be stuff that I wrote.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

What makes you say Egwene couldn't pull off that weave from the stone even with an item of power like Vora's wand? She is certainly dexterous enough and we have seen her split weaves impressively.

 

You're right to call this out.  I'm assuming that Egwene's rage strength + her natural amazing channelling skill + Vora's wand + miraculous new weave insight could never add up to the kind of thing Rand made in the Stone.  But here's why I feel good about that assumption.  It's canon that women are never as more powerful as men at channelling.  Egwene doesn't have any AOL memories or ta'veren-ness giving her a weave like the construct or the filaments of fire Rand used at the manor attack (which I thought was well executed by Brandon and an interesting contrast to what we see in AMOL).  Vora's wand is not Callandor and likely doesn't even come close since it presumably works only for saidar and has at least one flaw.  And we've never seen the OP used to kill-by-encasing - it's always the OP disrupting bodily integrity (the meat grinder around Rand Dumai's Wells) or burning it to a crisp in some way or another (your standard fire/lightning/balefire offensive weaves or Legendary weaves like Rand's filaments of fire).

 

I guess I'm not saying that it's impossible that Egwene could have done what she did - i.e. unconsciously weave a seek-out-channellers-and-destroy weave.  But there's been no foundation laid that makes what she did fit with the rest of the story.  No reference to crystals used in this way, no reference to a seek-out-and-destroy weave being anything but super legendary and isolated to LTT/Rand.  Instead, there's been plenty of foundation laid to lead us to expect Egwene to just flat out annihilate everything in sight with her strength and legitimacy as master of saidar.

 

Take my re-telling (caveat:  I wouldn't have had Egwene facing Taim and the Sharans in the first place).  Gawyn dies.  Egwene is overcome with grief, etc.  Taim is balefiring the crap out of everyone and the ground is fracturing.  Egwene, who has the internal fortitude of no other character in the series save perhaps the center-stage Wise Ones, recognizes what must be done.  She uses the wand and her natural talents with Earth to boil the earth/turn the ground to acid/pull down a mountain/splinter and impale/etc beneath the area where Taim is channeling.  In Taim's mad balefiring spree (even with the sa'angreal) he's not able to see so many things happening at once to cut through the weaves.  He's simply overwhelmed.  Saidar can be just as chaotic and destructive as saidin, and now we truly understand that.  This is no time for balance, or maybe Egwene is finally righting the balance and it's taking this much to undo what Taim/BT is trying to do with saidin.  We see Taim die horribly because we can all agree he's no match for Egwene when she's got the Flame of Tar Valon in her eyes and is in rage mode (like when the Seanchan attacked).  We see an AS perspective from somewhere else on the battlefield:  Egwene is burning with the OP and the battlefield is like a bonfire of saidar.  It's more brilliant and awesome than the Cleansing or the Bowl.  Nothing like it since AOL.  Perhaps longer.  The AS is compelled to kneel before it and can't believe that saidar can so unequivocally overcome saidin.  Egwene has what Taim doesn't - she's the true Amyrlin and Taim is just some jokester trying to remake the BT in his image (see also Elaida).  Egwene doesn't pause after she knows Taim has died - she has achieved such one-ness with the earth that she just knows he's dead.  We see it on stage - it's not like Sammael.  She turns to the Sharans and slices off all of them from the OP in one fell swoop.  Saidar is not theirs to control anymore; she has reclaimed it for the Light.  She creates an army of earth golems (or whatever Brandon can cook up - I get that golems are new too but I"m just trying to illustrate how far he could have gone and still comported with the canon) that lays waste to the shocked Ayyad and other Sharans.  She deafens them by amplifying her voice and proclaiming the supremacy of the Tower.  It's total confusion. The Sharans are decimated.  Demandred thinks OMG I haven't seen anything like this since AOL, maybe ever.  "How could I have been so blind as to seek glory in Shara when the corrupt Ayyad are obviously no match for the White Tower?  These bumpkins are more powerful than I ever expected."  All of the Light channellers flock to the beacon of saidar that is Egwene and unconsciously form up into circles of 72.  It's what must be done and what saidar is calling to them to do, even the men can't deny its pull as they sense the immense amount of saidar in the air.  Demandred doesn't stand a chance without the sa'angreal.  His desire for glory once again is his undoing as his essence is torn apart by the OP.  Egwene isn't even surprised by the OP.  She understands it like no one else does and uses all 5 powers to heal the earth, stitching it together with cuendillar.  The exertion along with Gawyn's death is too much.  As she's making the cuendillar she rises up into the air, dies some spectacular death and inexplicably becomes cuendillar or is encased by it somehow.  Her statue rests at the FoM for all of time.

 

It's not that hard.  Why are we given a story that's totally out of sync with the rest of the series when I can think of another way to tell it in 5 minutes that totally fits with all of the other motifs we've been reading about for the past 20 years?  Instead we get crystal, a horribly cliche fantasy motif that's never appeared in WoT as it appeared here.  It's always as an angreal or associated with AOL construction (or unrelated to the OP like the Crystal Throne, but I've even read some who think that the Throne is a ter'angreal and I think that strengthens my argument even more in that the presumption for the reader is that crystal = tool, not weapon in itself).  But somehow the crystal Egwene makes has the qualities of cuendillar (Logain can't get to the sa'angreal - WTF as if we haven't been led to think Logain wouldn't be the type to be so power hungry).  But we already have a device that does that:  CUENDILLAR.

 

I get that she's using the OP in a way we haven't seen before and that it follows that the results would be something new.  I just don't understand why it was necessary to roll this out when there are plenty of other ways the story could have been told to reinforce and honor the motifs and themes we've seen throughout the story.  Why roll out this new OP when at the closure of the series it's more properly time to weave together everything that has been so carefully established?

 

I'm tired of having to think "well it's TG and things don't go as expected.  We've seen characters do new things with the OP so okay I guess this sort of makes sense."  One of the major themes of this book is the continuity of themes over time and over re-tellings.  But instead of the legends that have been set up through the story (the strength of cuendillar/internal fortitude, the apparent placidity of saidar/women, the permanence of the White Tower, etc.) we get a telling of TG that integrates almost none of them.  In the 5th age, when gleeman are singing about TG, it'll be about crystals.  Seriously?

[Suttree]

I think it is important to remember when bashing Brandon that he worked with Harriet and Team Jordan very very closely on these novels. Harriet has acknowledged that it was her responsibility to take Brandon's writing and "meld" it to fit RJ's writing style and to follow his purposes for the characters. It was not easy for Brandon to write these three lengthy books not just because it was a huge amount of work but he also had constant oversite and editing of every word and every arc he wrote. These last three books were a team effort and the people closest to RJ were guiding it all of the way. I would never have taken this job and most writers wouldn't have taken it on either. Brandon was allowed virtually no creativity in this work. I am a fan who is very happy to have these final books. I can see other ways this tale could have ended but the way it was designed by this group of RJ intimates to complete the tale is satisfying for me. I accept this is not true for all.

Number of things wrong with this post. First no one tried to "meld" anything to RJ's writing style. In fact from day 1 Brandon and Team Jordan purposely said they would not try and do that. As for creativity he was allowed a great deal and in recent Q&A's we have seen how that played out. The notes were far less robust than most thought:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, there are great things where there’s just like a line from his notes. “And then Perrin is here doing this.” And you’re like “What? Perrin’s in Malden, how is he gonna get there? And he’s going to do what? And then he’s got to be up here to do what?” And then we know the ending, what he’s doing there. So, there was a lot of that. So, this all became the book, where I built an outline out of this, I took the scenes that he had said. The thing about the notes is that a lot of the notes were to him, and so he would say things like “I’m going to do this or this” and they’re polar opposites. And so there are sequences like that, where I decide what we’re going to do, and stuff like that.

Brandon was allowed a huge amount of creativity, in fact over 50% of the material he created with no guidance from the notes.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

Piggybacking off of Suttree's post, Brandon could have taken that 50% and ran far with it.  For all of the comments saying how Rand's ending was expected, there are a lot of different ways to tell that story.  And that's fine - it's great that there's a new storyteller, I'm not upset by that in itself.  What we see, though, is the storyteller waste all of that room with a bunch of fluff that sits awkwardly with the rest of the story.  This was an opportunity to bring everything together, but we get very little of that.  Characters act in unexpected, out-of-character ways with no other justification than the frantic pace of TG.  The mechanics of the universe are off.  Plot lines are abandoned.  Deaths aren't featured for their symbolic value but instead for a cheap visceral reaction.

[Agitel]

Piggybacking off of Suttree's post, Brandon could have taken that 50% and ran far with it.  For all of the comments saying how Rand's ending was expected, there are a lot of different ways to tell that story.  And that's fine - it's great that there's a new storyteller, I'm not upset by that in itself.  What we see, though, is the storyteller waste all of that room with a bunch of fluff that sits awkwardly with the rest of the story.  This was an opportunity to bring everything together, but we get very little of that.  Characters act in unexpected, out-of-character ways with no other justification than the frantic pace of TG.  The mechanics of the universe are off.  Plot lines are abandoned.  Deaths aren't featured for their symbolic value but instead for a cheap visceral reaction.

 

People keep mentioning this last one but it's something that I just can't agree with. 

[Orange7]

 

Piggybacking off of Suttree's post, Brandon could have taken that 50% and ran far with it. For all of the comments saying how Rand's ending was expected, there are a lot of different ways to tell that story. And that's fine - it's great that there's a new storyteller, I'm not upset by that in itself. What we see, though, is the storyteller waste all of that room with a bunch of fluff that sits awkwardly with the rest of the story. This was an opportunity to bring everything together, but we get very little of that. Characters act in unexpected, out-of-character ways with no other justification than the frantic pace of TG. The mechanics of the universe are off. Plot lines are abandoned. Deaths aren't featured for their symbolic value but instead for a cheap visceral reaction.

People keep mentioning this last one but it's something that I just can't agree with.

 

I agree that some of the deaths had no purpose other than death. Gawyn and Galad

died in the most pointless of manners. It was ridiculous.

[jwillis7]

galad did not die, they got him out...right?

[Agitel]

 

 

Piggybacking off of Suttree's post, Brandon could have taken that 50% and ran far with it. For all of the comments saying how Rand's ending was expected, there are a lot of different ways to tell that story. And that's fine - it's great that there's a new storyteller, I'm not upset by that in itself. What we see, though, is the storyteller waste all of that room with a bunch of fluff that sits awkwardly with the rest of the story. This was an opportunity to bring everything together, but we get very little of that. Characters act in unexpected, out-of-character ways with no other justification than the frantic pace of TG. The mechanics of the universe are off. Plot lines are abandoned. Deaths aren't featured for their symbolic value but instead for a cheap visceral reaction.

People keep mentioning this last one but it's something that I just can't agree with.

 

I agree that some of the deaths had no purpose other than death. Gawyn and Galad

died in the most pointless of manners. It was ridiculous.

 

I 'liked' Gawyn's death. Did Galad die? I forget. I remember him being brought back to Mayene, but I thought he lived. He was just weak and awaiting Healing.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

 

 

Piggybacking off of Suttree's post, Brandon could have taken that 50% and ran far with it. For all of the comments saying how Rand's ending was expected, there are a lot of different ways to tell that story. And that's fine - it's great that there's a new storyteller, I'm not upset by that in itself. What we see, though, is the storyteller waste all of that room with a bunch of fluff that sits awkwardly with the rest of the story. This was an opportunity to bring everything together, but we get very little of that. Characters act in unexpected, out-of-character ways with no other justification than the frantic pace of TG. The mechanics of the universe are off. Plot lines are abandoned. Deaths aren't featured for their symbolic value but instead for a cheap visceral reaction.

People keep mentioning this last one but it's something that I just can't agree with.

 

I agree that some of the deaths had no purpose other than death. Gawyn and Galad

died in the most pointless of manners. It was ridiculous.

 

Bela, Siuan, Hurin, Juilin (probably) ... even real minors like Karldin/Beldeine.

 

And it's fine if they die.  That's sad but it's TG and people will die.  It's not fine that their deaths were given no more than a paragraph and we see no other characters' reactions to them.  The atmosphere we're left with to figure out what happens to those that weren't featured is that death is everywhere and it's cheap and indiscriminate.  Named Two Rivers folk?  Probably got eaten.  Dozens of named Aiel?  Blown apart by red-veils.  DOZENS of named AS?  Balefired.  Why would we expect anything else when the deaths of characters we've built relationships with are conveyed to us so callously and in passing?  What we should be left with is a sense that they each paid some tremendous price and that all of their contributions throughout the series weren't for nothing.  We don't get that AT ALL in my opinion.

[Agitel]

Bela, Siuane, Bryne . . . those were all fine by me. I wouldn't call it callous. I'd like to reread the text for the others, but I felt slightly more exposition would have been nice. I don't think the type of send-offs people are asking after for the first three I mentioned were necessary at all, though.

[Finnssss22]

Galad did not die. He lost his hand, along with half his arm and took a nasty slash to his face but he was healed enough so he would live.

 

This was foreshadowed earlier in the book by his own thoughts btw.

 

 

aMoL-32: Galad PoV

Just as it would be wrong to hold a man to scorn because he had been born with only one hand, and was therefore an inferior Swordsman.

[The Fisher King]

Was beyond disgusted with the choice of adjetives in dialogue and mental monologues used..

 

If I never see ''downright, mighty, rightly, lad or son or Light'' again, I will scream.

 

When he started writing Mat as a Country BUMPKIN at times (TOM and AMOL CH 11 just as two examples) it was almost too much. Yes, they are from The Two Rivers which is backwoods country....but they're NOT characters on HEE HAW or The Beverly Hillbilies.

 

Theres actually a Mat section thats like:

 

All Mat could think was BLESS the lad! Light BLESS him! Now, that was a downright charitable thought, but Mat was rightly in a mighty fine mood and disposed to be kindly folks today. Folks were mighty fine folks in Mat's view and downright rightly fine folks was how Mat rightly saw them. Bless Tuon, wait till he showed her how mighty fine folkd here in Randland could be! She'd change her ways - Light she would - and see what mighty fine folks everyone was. Bless them!

 

Ok...I exagerated - but not by much!

 

 

Fish

[KakitaOCU]

Actually, you're exagerating to an incredible degree.

 

Here's the issue with those word choices. For some reason your mind latched onto them and so for you they're horrible and glaring. But that's as much your mind's fault as it is the authors.

 

I get that way with certain things. Want a great example? Despite being a martial artist I'm the first person to say "Suspension of disbelief!" when it comes to unrealistic fights in film. But you have some actor or stunt man make a single comment towards how "good" the fight was and I will forever be ruined on the fight in question. IE in the Phantom Menace I didn't care that the final 2v1 lightsabre fight was unrealistic, it was fun. Right up until Ray Park said he choreographed the entire fight and there wasn't a single flaw or opening in it. At which point now anytime I watch that scene I can't turn my brain off, I just sit there thinking "You're dead there. There. You turned your back there, a five year old could kill you there."

 

It just ruins it for me. Just like those dialogue choices just scream out at you every time. It's unfortionate.

[papertiger]

It's funny how we keep coming back to The Phantom Menace when discussing AMOL

[The Fisher King]

Kakita - Im NOT exaggerating by THAT much, though I already said I was using hyperbole in my example. Jordan NEVER used ''downright'' or ''rightly'' in his eleven main sequence books. Ive looked.

 

The biggest problem with those words were that they were not used (for the MOST part - and not in the way Sanderson used them) by Jordanin the first 11 books!

 

Why does Brandon get to decide to add new words? ALL he was asked to do was FINISH it.

 

I almost puked when I saw the word ''Dargon Slayer'' actually used in AMOL. I despise Dreamshards and Dreamspikes and Shards and etc etc and saying ''Bloody'' and ''Saidered''

 

Im not angry that I don't like the way Brandon makes up his own phrases and words. Im angry because he had NO RIGHT to do so.

 

He was asked to COMPLETE the series and help things move...the fact that he chose to add his own touches bugs me beyond belief.

[Finnssss22]

Kakita - Im NOT exaggerating by THAT much, though I already said I was using hyperbole in my example. Jordan NEVER used ''downright'' or ''rightly'' in his eleven main sequence books. Ive looked.

 

Obviously you did not look...

 

rightly = 16 times in 11 books, 17 if you include NS.

downright = 3 times

 

Also, as far as tGS and ToM goes, BS only used "rightly" once through both books and didn't use "downright" even once.

And even the use of "rightly" was from ToM-8 "A Seven-Striped Lass" which could have been written by RJ.

[The Fisher King]

Obviously you did not look...at where I said: '(for the MOST part - and not in the **way** Sanderson used them).

 

I'm going beyond the word itself. I am loking at ''context'' and how it SOUNDED. I'm sorry, but a lot of the characters under Sanderson just don't SOUND the way they did under RJ in RJ's 11 books. ... And I'm not going to stop saying so.

 

Now, Finnsss - if you are a math whiz - why don't you figure out the PROPORTIONATE PERCENTAGE that 17 times over 12 books compares to the number of times Sanderson used it in his THREE books.

 

You'll probably get sick and puke,

 

 

Fish

[Elan Tedronai]

I understand Brandon Sanderson is not Robert Jordan, and he didnt really try to imitate his style (just as he said he wouldnt) but that made me feel many characters werent really themselves.

 

First of all, he didnt really understand most of the females, Egwene and Elayne most of all. They were randomly heros or brats in his books. It shocked me to read chapters of Brandon's brat Elayne in Tom (I think Elayne was everything but a brat in RJ's books, he cared for her) and then suddenly find her in a legendary Queen role in AMoL. Needless to mention the weird twist in Egwene's plot, by far the best character in TGS and then suddenly becomes crazy and distrusts everybody during ToM and AMOL.

 

 

He also artificially forced Mat to be lustful when he looked at women, but just him, in a try to put some of the spicy love for women RJ had in his books. The word that keeps coming to my mind is artificial. And this are just some of the examples I can think of, i wont go further. 

 

Of course I think we have to thank him anyway. He is a fine author, I enjoyed Mistborn as well. And we needed an ending. But he is just not Robert Jordan :_(

 

 

I wish I could have a peak at the notes he left.

 

 

 

Brandon ruined nearly every character he laid his hands on.

 

Turned mat of kOD into a non funny whiny character

 

Turned egwne of KOD and TGS into a distrusting person ala crazy darth rand

 

turned aviendha into some half wit aiel

 

Turned rand to bloomin united nation diplomat with a jesus streak into him

 

 

i mean what the hell.