Quality Discussion Thread

[Elan Tedronai]

Basically it all boils down to

 

Why did RJ have to die?!! why?!!

 

It's truly amazing that TGS was the best book out of all three!!!

[MountaineerWV]

 

On the contrary, Brandon was handed a series sped up, with the story arc pointed in the right direction after KoD. Then the split(which Brandon was against) caused major structural issues. The dogs dinner was ToM, a book that should never habe been allowed to be published in the form that it was. Mistakes, timeline issues, and a rough draft writing quality were far too common.

 

I just meant that no matter how good of a job BS did, fans will always second guess him. I wasn't really commenting on the structure or story arc.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Basically it all boils down to

 

Why did RJ have to die?!! why?!!

 

It's truly amazing that TGS was the best book out of all three!!!

 

 

The quote that comes to mind is: 

 

I win again, Lews Therin. 

[Suttree]

 

 

Basically it all boils down to

 

Why did RJ have to die?!! why?!!

 

It's truly amazing that TGS was the best book out of all three!!!

 

 

The quote that comes to mind is: 

 

I win again, Lews Therin. 

Awesome.

[TreeJoe]

I don't need to hear about the Malkieri, Seanchan, etc....the Dark One was re-sealed, Shayol Grul is sprouting flowers before day's end. I can tell you: Things go well for the forces of the Light henceforth.

 

Seriously, what is the WoT without the struggle against the Dark One and his forces? It's a borefest :) It'd be like Rand's vision of an "uprising" being one person taking some shots at an Aiel patrol.

 

Mat's ending was, to me, the worst. Perrin found Faile and Rand was deliberately given his fine ending - he gets to finally get the peace he's wanted, without the body pains, without the fame. He shouldered his mountain and got to put it down - now he goes back to the life he wanted before the Pattern forced him to the life he had to lead.

 

Egwene's ending was, to me, intensely immature and satisfying at the same time. For all her maturation as a character, for all she felt she was "The White Tower" and should be the guiding hand for the Light....her ending came down to her choosing an immature Warder, her not releasing his bond while there was still time, and her acting as just another channeler with a Sa'angreal leading the battlefront. It was the ultimate in selfish conclusion to her character arc, which pretty much fits her to to a T.

[Agitel]

I don't need to hear about the Malkieri, Seanchan, etc....the Dark One was re-sealed, Shayol Grul is sprouting flowers before day's end. I can tell you: Things go well for the forces of the Light henceforth.

 

Seriously, what is the WoT without the struggle against the Dark One and his forces? It's a borefest :) It'd be like Rand's vision of an "uprising" being one person taking some shots at an Aiel patrol.

 

Mat's ending was, to me, the worst. Perrin found Faile and Rand was deliberately given his fine ending - he gets to finally get the peace he's wanted, without the body pains, without the fame. He shouldered his mountain and got to put it down - now he goes back to the life he wanted before the Pattern forced him to the life he had to lead.

 

Egwene's ending was, to me, intensely immature and satisfying at the same time. For all her maturation as a character, for all she felt she was "The White Tower" and should be the guiding hand for the Light....her ending came down to her choosing an immature Warder, her not releasing his bond while there was still time, and her acting as just another channeler with a Sa'angreal leading the battlefront. It was the ultimate in selfish conclusion to her character arc, which pretty much fits her to to a T.

 

How DARE she selfishly sacrifice herself for the good of mankind!

[MarkDiLillo]

Guys its OK.  Brandon thinks he did a GREAT job - excuse me, he doesn't think he did a great job...he KNOWS he did a great job - and everyone who disagrees with him hasn't a clue.  Writing is ALL ART and therefor it is all subjective opinion as to whether or not he did a good job!!!!

[Wippuh]

As a little more time goes by I'm just more and more let down by the myriad of storylines that were left completely untouched or handled poorly.  It miffs me that I spent so much investement in reading these arcs when there was nothing there at the end. 

Which portions of the book do you believe could have been completely removed from the overall story, and you would not have even cared/noticed?
 

• Fain and the dagger are obviously worthless with the way he was handled at the end.  The greatest villian of the story, treated so poorly :( 
• The entire adventure with Mat, Thom and Jain into the tower was a complete waste as Moiraine was a waste of a character in the last book, doing NOTHING (her little speech could have been done by anyone).  Such a great adventure for no payoff.
• Everything with Cadsaune seems very wasted, just another annoying female character that lent nothing to the story.  Her and Moiraine's character just came off as filler as soon as Moiraine went through the twisted doorway.
• The Tinkers/Aram.  Not needed at all.  What was their purpose other than some contrast to the Aiel?  The Song obviously didn't matter even though it was alluded to so many times and Rand found it.  Our missing epilogue is right there imo.
• The Windfinders.  The entire storyline with the Bowl of the Winds, quite possibly the most tedious of all of the storylines to power through, shows up as nothing more than "they sat on the ledge and controlled the storm".  Serioulsy?  Wow.
• Morgase.  She should have died at the hands of the Forsaken to save our time.

I'd kill all of the above just to have some more development of Demandred in the last book.  Instead we got a cartoon character with a microphone who came off as dumb as a box of rocks. 

[Wippuh]

Guys its OK.  Brandon thinks he did a GREAT job - excuse me, he doesn't think he did a great job...he KNOWS he did a great job - and everyone who disagrees with him hasn't a clue.  Writing is ALL ART and therefor it is all subjective opinion as to whether or not he did a good job!!!!

 

Haha, he is the posterchild for #humblebrag on Twitter isn't he? 

[Reyoru]

Lan is waaaaaaaaay off. Way off.

[MarkDiLillo]

Everyone seems disappointed over Fain, but I think even RJ would have handled Fain similarly.  Brandon clearly was way too brief, but I dont think the intent was to make Fain a major force in the end.  Only a moment of suspense while he sweeps in and possibly ruins everything until Mat deals with him.

[Wippuh]

Everyone seems disappointed over Fain, but I think even RJ would have handled Fain similarly.  Brandon clearly was way too brief, but I dont think the intent was to make Fain a major force in the end.  Only a moment of suspense while he sweeps in and possibly ruins everything until Mat deals with him.

I disagree.  Fain was the ultimate wildcard for the series.  Otherwise, we easily had the cliche ending that we got.  Fain's involvement was the path to avoiding this imo.

 

A couple hundred pages working his development from hynchman to super baddie and because Mat has been exposed to the dagger, he's all of a suddent immune to the Mist?  Weak explanation and very disappointing.

[jwillis7]

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

[MarkDiLillo]

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

 

yep and thats a quality issue.  the way plots like fain were just dropped in at the last second to make sure they appeared in the book is pathetic.

 

as far as fain not playing a large role in the end and just dying off suddenly...I suspect that was RJs plan.  maybe not though - hard to say until we know what was in the notes.  if we ever find out.

[Agitel]

Guys its OK.  Brandon thinks he did a GREAT job - excuse me, he doesn't think he did a great job...he KNOWS he did a great job - and everyone who disagrees with him hasn't a clue.  Writing is ALL ART and therefor it is all subjective opinion as to whether or not he did a good job!!!!

 

This seems like a step over the line to me.

[jwillis7]

Different note, I think leaving things out to put in an encyclopedia is cheap.  Leaving the answers open for no reason is dumb.  I am fine with not knowing what happened after the Last Battle, but we should get answers to what is happening in the plot of the book.  Getting a RAFO in the last book is cheap...

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Guys its OK.  Brandon thinks he did a GREAT job - excuse me, he doesn't think he did a great job...he KNOWS he did a great job - and everyone who disagrees with him hasn't a clue.  Writing is ALL ART and therefor it is all subjective opinion as to whether or not he did a good job!!!!

 

This seems like a step over the line to me.

 

I'm very nearly quoting him verbatim from a public Twitter discussion.  Don't blame the messenger

[MarkDiLillo]

Different note, I think leaving things out to put in an encyclopedia is cheap.  Leaving the answers open for no reason is dumb.  I am fine with not knowing what happened after the Last Battle, but we should get answers to what is happening in the plot of the book.  Getting a RAFO in the last book is cheap...

 

I agree.

 

All of the "what happens afterwards" stuff doesn't bother me one bit.  In fact, on some level I prefer it.  But there are major things missing from this book that were meant to be resolved.

[Rhienne]

I actually enjoyed the other two books by BS more than this one.  I don't know what it was but I noticed more of the characters being off, and particularly their dialogue.  Aviendha was horrid.  Some of her lines were ridiculous, she didn't even sound like an Aiel, never mind herself.  Mat was a fun character to read, but he wasn't RJ's Mat.  I did enjoy his sections though.  I haven't really liked Nynaeve much since BS took over.  I think her to be a bit blunt and her dialogue comes off as rather abrupt.

 

I think the pacing was fine up until the ending, where I would agree with others who've said it should have been less abrupt.  I am happy with stories being left hanging but just the lack of reflection by characters on their losses and future lives was disappointing.  In fact, I would say that apart from Rand and Egwene, there seemed to be very little insight or reflection by any of the other characters.  This book was heavy on (much needed) action but I think the characters and relationships suffered as a result.  And tbh, our views into Egwene's mind were pretty one dimensional and limited to her believing she was all powerful/chamption of the Light etc.  I would really have liked to see more of a reaction to Gawyn's death, or a bit more of her humanity in some other way.  The interaction between characters was what I missed most. 

 

We got so little of it because almost the entire book was set on the battlefield.  Apart from Tuon and Mat (and I don't find Tuon enjoyable to read about), there seemed like a drought of good main character interaction.  Particularly between Rand and Min, Land and Nynaeve, and Moiraine and anyone.  I know these characters were split up all over the place but a lot of them were bonded to each other and there was almost no reference at all to the emotions they must have been feeling from each other.

[mbuehner]

I agree that Cadsuane was wasted pretty badly, and that annoyed me. I mean, she did a pretty decent job protecting Rand during the Source cleansing. So when it came to protecting Shayol Ghul, best to put... one of his girlfriends in charge? That must have sat well, especially after making Elayne the General in Chief given all her extensive battlefield experience. Only real surprise is not trying to get Min installed as the Amyrlin Seat.

 

 And i'd say the channeling defenses as SG were pretty well bungled, but then again all the Light side channeling was pretty bungled, so its hard to differentiate. Its Cadsaune for gods sake, give her... somethin.

 

And what a blown opportunity in the epilogue. How much cooler would it have been if Rand tried to slip past her, avoiding eye contact, and said 'pardon, Aes Sedia', and as she stalked away he heard her mutter 'So I finally did teach you some manners, boy.' That, at least would have ended the arc appropriately. Sorry, i hate fan fic more than anyone, but i feel like we should have got a little bit more out of Cads and acknowledge her importance to Rand's development as a person.

[flinn]

 

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

 

yep and thats a quality issue.  the way plots like fain were just dropped in at the last second to make sure they appeared in the book is pathetic.

 

as far as fain not playing a large role in the end and just dying off suddenly...I suspect that was RJs plan.  maybe not though - hard to say until we know what was in the notes.  if we ever find out.

 Another reason I say that there is no way RJ would have been able to give us a satisfactory ending in 3 books. He would have needed more.

[Agitel]

 

 

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

 

yep and thats a quality issue.  the way plots like fain were just dropped in at the last second to make sure they appeared in the book is pathetic.

 

as far as fain not playing a large role in the end and just dying off suddenly...I suspect that was RJs plan.  maybe not though - hard to say until we know what was in the notes.  if we ever find out.

 Another reason I say that there is no way RJ would have been able to give us a satisfactory ending in 3 books. He would have needed more.

 

Oh no, not this again! It's not you, but I've seen this back and forth 100 times already and it's making me dizzy. To break things up, I'll respond. Jordan could certainly have done it in three. I don't know if he could have brought it down to two, though. It strikes me that he'd have cut some of the action scenes and expanded on character interactions and his complex weave of plots.

[jwillis7]

 

 

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

 

yep and thats a quality issue.  the way plots like fain were just dropped in at the last second to make sure they appeared in the book is pathetic.

 

as far as fain not playing a large role in the end and just dying off suddenly...I suspect that was RJs plan.  maybe not though - hard to say until we know what was in the notes.  if we ever find out.

 Another reason I say that there is no way RJ would have been able to give us a satisfactory ending in 3 books. He would have needed more.

i dont agree, you cut down the 190 page chapter say 50 pages for explaining things that happened after Rand left the bore to when he rides off would be great.

[Wippuh]

 

 

i'm fine with the way Fain went out, but i was wondering the whole time where he was.  It would have taken just a few paragraphs scattered around setting up the threat.  Instead of him coming in at the very end just to die a few pages later

 

yep and thats a quality issue.  the way plots like fain were just dropped in at the last second to make sure they appeared in the book is pathetic.

 

as far as fain not playing a large role in the end and just dying off suddenly...I suspect that was RJs plan.  maybe not though - hard to say until we know what was in the notes.  if we ever find out.

 Another reason I say that there is no way RJ would have been able to give us a satisfactory ending in 3 books. He would have needed more.

 

You wouldn't have given up three or four hundred pages of the Last Battle for a little more description on Fain?  A two or three hundred page Last Battle would have been plenty.  I know I don't need that much detail surrounding it all, especially when there are so many other juicy storylines out there that are just demanding attention.

[Wippuh]

Mah browser is dumb :(