Quality Discussion Thread

[jjstraka34]

Oddly, I don't have much of a problem with Fain. He's been a figure who has shown up more and more sporadically since he met with Elaida in the Tower, and it's possible that all of us who expected him to play a Gollum-like role at The Last Battle weren't giving RJ enough credit.

[kasper11]

I thought the book was great.  It was different than the rest of the books, which tended to gloss over a lot of the battles, but it needed to be. 

 

I do have a couple of criticisms...

 

1) I thought Padan Fain was completely wasted.  He appeared for about  5 pages total.  He was the biggest wildcard in the series.  Constant theories about his role in the last battle, and as it turns out, he had none.  To be honest, I completely forgot about him until about halfway through the book when I started wondering where he was.  Then, on page 868, he finally appears.  And he is much more powerful.  He thinks of himself onpar with Rand and the Dark One, almost like a third power to go with Light and Dark.  Then, the next time he appears, Mat kills him nearly instantly.  We should have gotten a glimpse of him and his new persona much earlier so that it would be hanging over the rest of the book.  And he shouldn't have died so easily.

 

2) I was dissapointed with the role Mat and Perrin played at the very end.  All through the series we heard about the pull Rand had on each of them, how important it would be for all three ta'veren to be with Rand.  And they ended up being a couple of bodyguards.  Mat takes out Fain, Perrin takes out Slayer and that is it.  It felt weak to me.  I also would have like to have seen Mat take out a Foresaken.  Perrin took out Lanfear, Lan got Demandred, Egwene killed Taim, Nynaeve had bested Moghedein earlier, Moiraine took out a couple.  I thought Mat, with his foxhead, would have been the one to kill Demandred.

 

3) Perrin.  Holy shit did I think his line was weak. 

 

 

All in all it was a really good way to close out the series.  A lot of oh shit moments, sadness, a lot of people acting stupid (Gawain). 

[Suttree]

I was talking to someone else entirely, you quoted me, and set your own goal post. It really doesn't matter what I said, you're the one that picked it up and ran with it.

I was responding from my iPhone mate. Sorry for any confusion but nevertheless I just gave you a direct quote of what you said. You took a strong stance on RJ not possibly being able to do it in less and attacked others for disagreeing.

 

Regardless you continue to split hairs as opposed to addressing the overall point.

 

The point being Jordan stated he could do it in much less, Brandon didn't want the books split, and now that it is finished we can clearly see the structural problems do to the split. 

 

Far from just saying Jordan could be "concise" I have already giving numerous examples over the last three days. I have talked about Jordan's strong use of ellipsis, something that Brandon seemed unable to do. It actually fits perfectly in-line with his seeming inability to trust the reader and "tell don't show style". It could have and should have been much shorter. The books would have been far stronger for it.

 

Also I'm not sure you get the difference between filler and bloat.

[Venaliter]

 

 

 

My problem is the book didn't address things in the way I wanted, so it's really pretty bad.

I'd say the book addresses things that didn't make sense...Fain, The Horn of Valere, Black Tower, Moraine...Just awful writing.

 

Whoa dude. I agree with Fain. But Olver and the Horn is one of the greatest things I've ever read.

Matt "Died" against Rahvin. But Rand Balefired him and matt never actually died. What is balefired never happens. Period. Ever. So the Horn was bound to him. Olver being able to sound it was probably one of the best examples of deux ex machina in the book.

 

On the point of "Where is the DM staff, and what to they really think of the book?" I am intrigued. Let's get some honest opinions here. More importantly, were you offered a chance to read a copy and stamp approval on the cannon? Because if you were, you share the blame for the letdown of the series.

[Agitel]

A Dobraine scene would have been great. So would have a snapping Bryne scene. That said, it seems like half the people here think Brandon's novels could have been severely parsed down. The other half seems to be saying that they want every character ever mentioned by Jordan to have some type of tribute scene. I'm still digesting the book, but I feel that Brandon did a pretty good job of bringing in character's we've met throughout the series run. While it would have been interesting, and I think it's certainly okay to say that you would have liked it, I think getting frustrated over not having a Dobraine POV is a bit of a superfluous complaint. Now, giving Alivia a little bit of a stronger role through these last two or three books would have tied things up a little better. It seems like she should have been present. As for Fain, I expected more. Perhaps even if he didn't accomplish much, I expected a little bit more explanation about him and why the Dark One is Mashadar's ancient enemy, or something. I would think that Fain's fate and final involvement is pretty much what Jordan intended, however. So he may be to fault as well.

 

Personally, I think it was better to leave so many open ends than to tie everything up in a nice little bow. I feel like you risk more with the latter. And judging by the epilogue, Jordan never planned on telling us as much as we would all have wanted to know.

 

*shrugs*

 

I'm still digesting this last book, and contemplating a complete reread of the series. Finishing it was a release, then a downer, only because we've reached the ending of the Wheel of Time (no matter what the last line says).

[pmtang]

During Rand's struggle with The Dark One he said he had chosen the option of killing The Dark One before, and yet here we are starting all over.  So perhaps it doesn't actually matter what Rand does and cycle will continue.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Action/Battles -were overwhelming. The whole book was a battle. Really felt that TG feel. I'm sure lots of people really enjoyed AMoL because of this. It was good, but left little room for plot and characters

 

Character reunions/Interaction - poorest book in the series for me. From Moraines reunion, which failed to stir the epicness and emotions it should have, to her just clubbing everyone at the Fields to 'get the show on the road'...the characters didn't feel right. They felt like plot devices to advance the battle. Really disappointed in this. The emotions of the reunions, the heroes triumphs, the fallen warriors...all of it should have been there with more feeling, or in a lot of cases...just there instead of missing. Conflicts are resolved with one liners. We are informed that people are dead with a one liner. The meat and potatoes of WoT was the people, and they took a back seat in this final book when they should have been forefront.

 

Deaths - at first I thought no one important was going to die, then I wasn't sure anyone was going to live. In this way the action and intensity was maintained. However, with so many key characters dying in short succession, we don't really get a chance to feel it, see the emotion in characters surrounding the events...lost its power. It's meaning.

 

Open Ended storyline/Plotholes - not a deal breaker for me. We got a TON of mysteries answered, even if they were delivered in a casual sentence or quick one liner. A few other mysteries, open ended future, it isn't bad. Leaves us wanting more which we unfortunately can't have, but the big storyline was answered

 

Bad Guys - better than some of the other books. The forsaken were an actual threat and causing damage to the warriors of the light. Still dumb though. Sharans? Was guessed here that they'd be the bad guys, but still felt cheap as they had not played a role up until now. The great captains and compulsion was a solid move. Respect.

 

Good guys - Perrin just disappearing for 500 pages? So many point of views...helped to keep you in the action but it also felt less personal. Thom has one scene? Moraine repeats the prophecies at the Fields and then does nothing? Nynaeve puts a bandaid on alanna, thats her big plays? The whole 2 trusted women into the depths of SG with the dragon sounded like it was going to be epic. Very anti-climactic.

 

World errors - I could be completely wrong but a few things stood out to me. Circles and how they were handled in this book. Think that is wrong. Androl grabs a circle...wrong, has to be passed to him. Pevara also says that a circle can have 2 men and 1 woman. Thought it had to be equal or have more women but could not have more men. Mat and the horn...pretty sure there is a RJ quote saying that Mat was NOT unlinked to the horn since he never died (as the bale fire undid his death because he 'never died'). Pevara fighting Ashaman at the BT. She single handedly beats 3? 4? Of them? Men are more powerful in the OP than women, but women can link and men can't. That's been sort of the golden rule. Maybe she is that strong and the Ashaman that weak, but it sure jarred me that she could overcome them.

 

Gateways - far too much use of gateways as a weapon. The androl lava scene was too much for me. Apparently he could just drop lava on all the armies and win the war...if he'd thought if it. The Dragons being fired through gateways made tactical sense...was a 'good thinking' moment. But still felt cheap.

 

Overall, really sad to see the series come to a close. Really happy we did get some sort of closure, the book was good in that regard. Still think this was a poorly written book, felt farrrrrrr too rushed with too many contrived scenes built to just push the storyline forward or to give us an answer to an unresolved plotline. My personal preference is far more focus on characters, the dialogue, their interactions, and reactions to what is going on. Battles are cool, but 700 pages was too much for me. Even if it was TG. Also, not enough Mat ;). Can never have enough Mat!

[Agitel]

During Rand's struggle with The Dark One he said he had chosen the option of killing The Dark One before, and yet here we are starting all over.  So perhaps it doesn't actually matter what Rand does and cycle will continue.

 

Could you provide a quote for this?

[Balefire to da face!]

 

I was talking to someone else entirely, you quoted me, and set your own goal post. It really doesn't matter what I said, you're the one that picked it up and ran with it.

I was responding from my iPhone mate. Sorry for any confusion but nevertheless I just gave you a direct quote of what you said. You took a strong stance on RJ not possibly being able to do it in less and attacked others for disagreeing.

 

Actually, I don't think I attacked anyone over the goal post of Jordan finishing in the same amount of page count. Because you immediately posted and set your own goal post. Which was half.

 

Call it splitting hairs, but I if someone wants to argue the downright absurd over the merely asinine, then I'll take it.

 

 

 

Regardless you continue to split hairs as opposed to addressing the overall point.

 

The point being Jordan stated he could do it in much less, Brandon didn't want the books split, and now that it is finished we can clearly see the structural problems do to the split. 

 

Far from just saying Jordan could be "concise" I have already giving numerous examples over the last three days. I have talked about Jordan's strong use of ellipsis, something that Brandon seemed unable to do. It actually fits perfectly in-line with his seeming inability to trust the reader and "tell don't show style". It could have and should have been much shorter. The books would have been far stronger for it.

 

Also I'm not sure you get the difference between filler and bloat.

 

 

Really?

 

Really?

 

Really?

 

You are going to say I am the one who is avoiding the subject when I don't tackle your single paragraph?

 

After glibly telling me that I wasted a time making an hour long post?

 

After completely ignoring my offer to bulletpoint Knife of Dreams in comparison to a rough outline of the Brandon trilogy to see how Jordan's effort stacks up?

 

As I said before, I am more interested in hard evidence rather then pure speculation. Show me where Jordan worked at a pace that would make your figures add up. I don't see it. I don't see it in his early books. I don't see it in his middle books, I don't see it in the late books. And I don't see it in Knife of Dreams.

[pmtang]

 

During Rand's struggle with The Dark One he said he had chosen the option of killing The Dark One before, and yet here we are starting all over.  So perhaps it doesn't actually matter what Rand does and cycle will continue.

 

Could you provide a quote for this?

 

Sorry, not killing the dark one.  Ending everything.

 

Pg 787

 

AN END TO EXISTENCE IS NOT PEACE.  I MADE THIS CHOICE BEFORE. WE WILL CONTINUE.

 

But then later he does say that The Dark One can't end everything.  So maybe he lied to LTT before and LTT believed him?  But the Dark One would be ruling and we still wouldn't have this.

[Venaliter]

Show me where Jordan worked at a pace that would make your figures add up. I don't see it. I don't see it in his early books. I don't see it in his middle books, I don't see it in the late books. And I don't see it in Knife of Dreams.

This argument is so superfluous it boggles the mind. I've even lost track of what exactly it's about.

 

Could the books have been much shorter without losing plot? Absolutely. Freaking absolutely. Could the books have been much shorter and better? Probably.

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

[Bluedust9]

 

I was talking to someone else entirely, you quoted me, and set your own goal post. It really doesn't matter what I said, you're the one that picked it up and ran with it.

I was responding from my iPhone mate. Sorry for any confusion but nevertheless I just gave you a direct quote of what you said. You took a strong stance on RJ not possibly being able to do it in less and attacked others for disagreeing.

 

Regardless you continue to split hairs as opposed to addressing the overall point.

 

>The point being Jordan stated he could do it in much less, Brandon didn't want the books split, and now that it is finished we can clearly see the structural problems do to the split. 

 

Far from just saying Jordan could be "concise" I have already giving numerous examples over the last three days. I have talked about Jordan's strong use of ellipsis, something that Brandon seemed unable to do. It actually fits perfectly in-line with his seeming inability to trust the reader and "tell don't show style". It could have and should have been much shorter. The books would have been far stronger for it.

 

Also I'm not sure you get the difference between filler and bloat.

 

 

I'm a nerd, someone needs to do this: http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

 

I edited them into one eBook and it made it so much better, even if I hate GURM.

[Suttree]

I have seen it, as have all the others saying the exact same thing I am...he did in TSR and TFoH.  Regardless you are focusing on the wrong thing. Ignoring the filler and bloat(bloat is the concept I believe you're not clear on) doesn't help you here, ignoring the literary devices that Brandon seems unaware of that would have sharply reduced things doesn't help you here. As I said I have given examples both here and at TL. If you wish spend some time at TL where Dom has provided extremely in depth analysis on all the wasted space. I'm done with the discussion here, heading out for some cocktails, but I hope you continue to look into it and don't think the overwhelming majority(including reviewers) of people claiming RJ could have done it in less are stating the most  "asinine things I have ever seen obviously intelligent people ever utter".

 

As for pace, it is quite funny you attribute it to Brandon and not where we are in the story arc. Granted he can be blunt with his plotwork but that doesn't help with filler and bloat. You won't know if Brandon is skilled at it until you see a comparative place to CoT in Brandon's own Stormlight Archive. Thanks for the conversation bale, have a good night.

 

Edit: Ahh so you edited your post to make it more insulting. If you don't think calling people asinine is an attack I can't help you. Again have a good night bale.

[MarkDiLillo]

ya idk i stopped reading this thread when you guys veered off on opinions of whether or not RJ could have done it in less.  who really cares?  even if it took RJ 6 more books...does it really matter?  I think if you can follow him for the first 14, you can handle a couple more.

[Agitel]

 

 

During Rand's struggle with The Dark One he said he had chosen the option of killing The Dark One before, and yet here we are starting all over.  So perhaps it doesn't actually matter what Rand does and cycle will continue.

 

Could you provide a quote for this?

 

Sorry, not killing the dark one.  Ending everything.

 

Pg 787

 

 

 

AN END TO EXISTENCE IS NOT PEACE.  I MADE THIS CHOICE BEFORE. WE WILL CONTINUE.

 

 

But then later he does say that The Dark One can't end everything.  So maybe he lied to LTT before and LTT believed him?  But the Dark One would be ruling and we still wouldn't have this.

 

 

 

Nononono. The previous choice he's referring to is from Veins of Gold. He was saying that he'd already chosen not to end existence. He was NOT saying that he'd ever chosen to end existence.

[pmtang]

Morridin was a pretty awesome character I think.  I particularly like when he tells Rand his punishment was to be reborn.  I could see how living the same life over and over again can be quite tiresome.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Remember to keep the posts civil guys. Length of paragraph and insults do not make an argument any better. 

 

There is no need to get aggressive about anything. 

 

Also, I think the whole "What RJ could have done" debate is ultimately pointless and has no meaning. 

 

The man - much to our sorrow- died before he could finish the series. There is no way anyone can provide enough evidence to say what he would or would not have been capable of doing. To try and do so is a waste of writing. 

 

I can't forbid anyone from discussing it, it is a legitimate debate if it remains civil, but I would advise everyone to avoid any lengthy argument. Nothing can come of it ultimately, it is a matter of opinion. Nobody knows what could have been achieved. 

 

Also, it strays off topic, this is not the place for such a debate. I never thought I would have to say get back on topic regarding criticism, but lets keep it to discussion on the quality of aMoL, plot-wise or literary. 

[Bornhald]

There was a disturbing lack of semicolon.

[Kivam]

I think the concept fits very well into the larger themes of the WoT.  What feels out of place is the internal dialogue describing it.  I'm not sure about you but when I fight I don't try to put names to the actions I perform... you just act.  The whole scene makes Egwene's assertions of fatigue, pain, and dismay a lie by turning her thoughts towards philosophic BS.  Seriously, does every action she perform have to revolve around her proclamation of "I'm the Amrylin?"

 

That's actually Sanderson's biggest problem as a writer - he has his characters self-narrate, declaim, or otherwise engages in way too much "telling" when he should be "showing".  It's gotten a lot better since the start, but it's still a real annoyance when I read his (otherwise excellent) work

[Kivam]

First, I'm not trolling despite this being a new account. 

 

Given that, I just finished the last 120 pages and I'd seriously rather reread Eragon than the middle of this book again.  The ending was fair and roughly what I'd expected after lurking the forums and theory sites for years, but the entire Last Battle portion was without merit.

 

I think the tipping point for me was either when Graendal was returned or when M'Hael was raised.  It just really made it obvious how pointless everything was that wasn't directly related to what Rand was doing in the Bore.  Everything else was just fluff.  The book either should have been 300 pages shorter or there should have been a better Rand storyline.

 

I stopped to whine to my wife about how terrible the book was so far, and she wouldn't take me at my word.  I told her it was the Phantom Menace of WoT.  Her immediate reply was who is Jar Jar Binks?  Immediately, I said Demandred.  Mesa Wlyd.  Mesa gonna destroy yous!

 

And seriously, how much new, random BS was inserted in this book?  Binding sa'angreal?  WTF was a Sharan army suddenly doing in Randland?  Reverse balefire (the Flame?  Seriously?)?!  Sa'angreal with no buffers?  I liked this series because of the theories and the internal consistency, at least in part, and this was a train wreck.

 

That drove me crazy.  Pages and pages of Demandred screaming "Rand, where are you!"  At the Bore, obviously.  Where else was he going to be.  Last battle, blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul . . . come on, now.  Demandred as good soldier destroying the armies of the Light so the DO/Moridin can face Rand 1 (2) on 1, that would have fit within the plot (though not his personality as it was revealed).  Demandred as crazed guy looking for 1 on 1 duel with Rand in a stand up fight in Merrilor made no sense given the leadup.

[Cybertrolloc]

 

...

 

1. I don't see much bloat, no. I covered some of it in my original post. I am halfway into TGS and the only bumps I've seen are Gawyn. Which, as I said, I don't think is Brandon's fault and doubt highly Jordan could have resolved any quicker considering that Jordan didn't get around to it himself for the 7 books that Gawyn was hanging from Elaida's nuts for absolutely no good reason other then apparently he likes having angry, channeling man haters for bosses. And Hinderstap, which I will repeat again that I agree Brandon endulged himself too much in. But also say that some page count was required to set him up for ToM.

Perfect. What did BS do better in the first 150 pages of Egwene's arc that wasn't in the 30 page chapter in KoD? Just that plus chopping lots of Perrin (which is repetitive within that book let alone ground that's been gone over already at least twice) in ToM gets you close to losing a book, but wait, there's more :)

[John Everyman]

 

 

...

 

1. I don't see much bloat, no. I covered some of it in my original post. I am halfway into TGS and the only bumps I've seen are Gawyn. Which, as I said, I don't think is Brandon's fault and doubt highly Jordan could have resolved any quicker considering that Jordan didn't get around to it himself for the 7 books that Gawyn was hanging from Elaida's nuts for absolutely no good reason other then apparently he likes having angry, channeling man haters for bosses. And Hinderstap, which I will repeat again that I agree Brandon endulged himself too much in. But also say that some page count was required to set him up for ToM.

Perfect. What did BS do better in the first 150 pages of Egwene's arc that wasn't in the 30 page chapter in KoD? Just that plus chopping lots of Perrin (which is repetitive within that book let alone ground that's been gone over already at least twice) in ToM gets you close to losing a book, but wait, there's more :)

 

He made her arguments for a unified White Tower much more compelling.  Though I enjoyed the Egwene sections of KOD, it did suffer from unnaturally rapid character growth (or character change, depending on how you view it) on Egwene's part.  This just seems to be a natural consequence of Jordan dialing back on Egwene POV (if I remember correctly, she has no chapters in Winter's Heart, and very few in Path of Daggers and A Crown of Swords).  I'm not sure what the consensus is (if there is even one), but I personally feel that Egwene and Perrin were the two characters to really come off better with the author switch (Egwene was likely heading in that direction anyway).  Nynaeve is slightly better for me.  Elayne is so much worse, ugh.  Mat is worse overall, but I didn't just hate it like some did, and I do felt he improved at writing Mat in TOM, and again in AMOL.  Moiraine is tragically worse (though mainly just underused)

 

On AMOL quality: I definitely feel some of the noted flaws, while there, are being blown out of proportion.  I actually had much less trouble enjoying AMOL for what it is than I did COT or ACOS (which I maintain is one of the more structurally flawed books of the series).  Of course, the various problems, large or insignificant, don't bother me quite as much because I feel every book in the Wheel of Time is quite flawed; as I've noted, though I like elements of Robert Jordan's writing, I'm not willing to consider him a fantastic writer, just a fantastic storyteller.  But I also don't have that emotional attachment, which might be to my benefit.  WOT is far from my favorite book series, but I feel that some of the ideas that comprise the series are the best in fantasy (even if I wish some of them had been executed in a different manner, both in AMOL and throughout the series).  In terms of following up on and concluding those ideas, I felt AMOL did a satisfactory job.  Even excellent, in certain instances. 

 

And of course, the Last Battle itself was done fairly well, especially considering the sheer scope that was all but promised from book one.  As a huge Malazan fan, I found I actually enjoyed some of the battles in AMOl more than I did The Crippled God.  That's quite a feat, for me at least.  It lacked in enjoyable, quiet character moments (which is a huge flaw in my opinion), but the Last Battle itself was extremely well done. 

 

 

 

 

 

First, I'm not trolling despite this being a new account. 

 

Given that, I just finished the last 120 pages and I'd seriously rather reread Eragon than the middle of this book again.  The ending was fair and roughly what I'd expected after lurking the forums and theory sites for years, but the entire Last Battle portion was without merit.

 

I think the tipping point for me was either when Graendal was returned or when M'Hael was raised.  It just really made it obvious how pointless everything was that wasn't directly related to what Rand was doing in the Bore.  Everything else was just fluff.  The book either should have been 300 pages shorter or there should have been a better Rand storyline.

 

I stopped to whine to my wife about how terrible the book was so far, and she wouldn't take me at my word.  I told her it was the Phantom Menace of WoT.  Her immediate reply was who is Jar Jar Binks?  Immediately, I said Demandred.  Mesa Wlyd.  Mesa gonna destroy yous!

 

And seriously, how much new, random BS was inserted in this book?  Binding sa'angreal?  WTF was a Sharan army suddenly doing in Randland?  Reverse balefire (the Flame?  Seriously?)?!  Sa'angreal with no buffers?  I liked this series because of the theories and the internal consistency, at least in part, and this was a train wreck.

 

That drove me crazy.  Pages and pages of Demandred screaming "Rand, where are you!"  At the Bore, obviously.  Where else was he going to be.  Last battle, blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul . . . come on, now.  Demandred as good soldier destroying the armies of the Light so the DO/Moridin can face Rand 1 (2) on 1, that would have fit within the plot (though not his personality as it was revealed).  Demandred as crazed guy looking for 1 on 1 duel with Rand in a stand up fight in Merrilor made no sense given the leadup.

 

 

 

I can definitely agree with that.  I really wish Demandred would have been portrayed with a bit more depth.  That said, I think it says something about the series that I didn't find stark raving mad Demandred much more bullheaded than the other Forsaken had been shown to be up to that point (I found I stopped liking the Forsaken once most of the mystery was dropped and they were revealed to have more in common with squabbling children than competent villains; I understand the desire to show that pettiness and jealousy are a natural part of evil, but you do want to strike a balance.  Once again, I love the idea of the Forsaken, but not the Forsaken themselves).  Really, the only two that showed much depth were Moridin and, believe it or not, Lanfear.  I really wish Brandon would have done more with them.  Lanfear felt like an afterthought in AMOL, and Moridin had some great scenes and lines, but would really benefited from some more development.

 

Demandred gave the impression of depth, but we didn't really see it realized.  I think almost all of my personal criticisms at AMOL could be summed up with something along the lines of "not given time to develop".  Which is an odd statement about a 900 page novel, but there you go.

[Marc_S]

When Egwene meets with Tuon (and entourage) we see this though a Mat POV.

Mat sees that Egwene is accompanied with a seanchan woman.

Shouldn't Mat recognize Leilwyn Shipless after spending like an whole age together with her at the traveling show???

[Aver]

Yeah he should I think that has already been reported in the error thread

[Elan Tedronai]

the scene where mat n rand try to one up another is just so......pathetic i really cringed