Why is Perrin so absolutely hostile to the idea of restarting Menetherin?

[False Dragon1991]

I get that hes the reluctant hero and understands that Elayne is on his side so doesn't want to start problems with her. But at the same time. People in the Two Rivers are barely aware they are in Andor. The armies of Andor have, repeatedly, failed to protect the Two Rivers or do anything to help them. People in Andor do not even care that the Two Rivers are part of the realm. If a state no longer taxes a region or sends officials to it then essentially they are already independent and have been for centuries; with their own town councils running things. The Queen of Ghealdan seemed pretty much up for this. She doesn't want to be vassal to the Queen of Andor she wanted to be Perrins vassal. Then you have Faile also nudging him towards this. I think this is because Faile has a slight "Game of Thrones you win or you die" mentality; but shes not power mad by any measure. Never mind that everyone in the Two Rivers clearly wants this. Perrin is needlessly antagonizing his men and going against the popular sentiment of his people on the chance that it might affect a woman he has had very little interaction with. I don't really see the logic or why he thinks Andor has any actual right to the Two Rivers. Do the opinions of the people who have given him his authority and is closest companions count for nothing? Why should he put Elaynes feeling higher than that? I get that its meant to come across as him being humble, but I always thought it was quite petty and mean spirited that he refused to accept what to be the leader others wanted him to be. 

 

I don't know whether this is meant to be an example of a character being able to fight the will of the pattern. I mean Perrin is being pushed to do this from every angle. 

[David Selig]

 Because it's a dumb idea. Manetheren was destroyed 2000 freaking years ago. The people of Two Rivers didn't even know about until Moiraine told them its story. Restarting Manetheren means the tiny Two Rivers starting a war against Andor. And for what? They already got almost complete autonomy after the deal between Elayne and Perrin.

[False Dragon1991]

Well, Two Rivers, Ghealdan and possibly Saldea as well. With Perrin a taverrn I really wouldn't write them off in a war. Those longbows behind stakes would be really deadly. 

 

It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it. Plus, Perrins reasons don't seem to be "we can't win a war against Andor", they seem more to be about him not wanting to offend Elayne and that personal thread.

 

I haven't read far enough to learn about the deal. Only to Towers of Midnight where he burns the flags. TBH I thought Rahvin would send his Andor soldiers into the two rivers books ago; but instead Rand had a kratos moment.

[EmperorAllspice]

Um, why would you start a war with no apparent benefit? War kills people. Decent people, and all of the cast have seen the destruction it causes first hand, they have no reason to go to war unless there's a completely necessary reason for it.

[clutzyninja]

 

It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it.

Seriously? 

[False Dragon1991]

 

 

It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it.

Seriously? 

 

 

Its this thing called democracy....

 

You do what the majority wants, not what a group of technocrats thinks is best; which is very patronizing and paternalistic. In fact its inherently undemocratic.

 

If Perrins people want this, who is he to object and what gives Elayne the right to object either if everyone in the Two Rivers does not want to be part of Andor? Also, you're a little too certain that the Two Rivers would lose, there have been plenty of independence movements which though bloody and against a much greater power have succeeded. For example Ireland n Great Britain, the 13 colonies (US) vs Great Britain etc etc  In both those cases you had a rural area with a relatively low population who seemed to have very little chance of success because they were taking the worlds greatest power of the time. It could very easily have went differently and people probably would say what a stupid rebellion either one was with foresight but that's not what happened. I am sure there were Americans who also said that such a war would have only led to a bloodbath at the time as well.

 

I just don't see why Perrin should ignore and run roughshod over what his people want and at the same time know that his tavern nature is putting them in danger.   

[clutzyninja]

I'm not so sure the TR cares about reviving Manetheren so much, they just want Perrin to lead them.  THe simplest resolution would be for Elayne to grant Perrin Lordship over the TR.  Then everyone is happy, and 10s of thousands of people don't die.

 

And democracy isn't what you seem to think it is.  Democracy elects leaders to make decisions.  Not everything is a vote.  Not to mention the fact that Randland is NOT a democracy, but that's besides the point.  Just because the uneducated majority likes something doesn't mean it automatically should be so.  I'm sure the majority doesn't want to pay taxes, that doesn't mean taxes should go away.  I'm sure the majority would like to be able to walk into a store and take whatever they want without paying, doesn't make it law.  Your comment that "It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it" does NOT sound like a place I want to live.

[False Dragon1991]

I'm not so sure the TR cares about reviving Manetheren so much, they just want Perrin to lead them.  THe simplest resolution would be for Elayne to grant Perrin Lordship over the TR.  Then everyone is happy, and 10s of thousands of people don't die.

 

And democracy isn't what you seem to think it is.  Democracy elects leaders to make decisions.  Not everything is a vote.  Not to mention the fact that Randland is NOT a democracy, but that's besides the point.  Just because the uneducated majority likes something doesn't mean it automatically should be so.  I'm sure the majority doesn't want to pay taxes, that doesn't mean taxes should go away.  I'm sure the majority would like to be able to walk into a store and take whatever they want without paying, doesn't make it law.  Your comment that "It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it" does NOT sound like a place I want to live.

 

Bit of a tangent but, well, actually that's a republic not a democracy its just people ever since the 18th century have liked to give it the name with the nicer connotations. Classical Athens was a democracy and in that every voter or citizen did get to vote on decisions in the assembly. In the West we do not live in democracies today and this means the average citizen has very little say in government. Plus if you argue that the people are all dumb then you shouldn't be giving them the right to choose their representatives either. Which historically is exactly the argument that was used to limit the franchise to only the middle and upper class. It was held that the ordinary people and women should not be allowed to vote because these people lacked the education and discernment to choose representatives. People felt this would lead to anarchy in government. Suffice to say letting these two groups vote has not unravelled society. So I don't get why you think people being able to vote on decisions is a bad thing; never mind that the principle behind it is very dubious. The only reason why not to have a real democracy was because of issues like access to information and organization. With the internet and digital media that no longer applies it would in fact be extremely easy to do nationwide polls on decisions of major importance like going to war. Would the invasion of Iraq have happened if put to the polls and not simply an event at the whim of statesmen in Washington and Westminster who keep there real motivations hidden rather than letting it stand in a public discourse? That is not a good society and certainly not democratic.      

[Yamezt]

 

 

Its this thing called democracy....

 

I think what you are trying to say is "Self-Determination." And conversely, Elayne would want to ensure Territorial Integrity.

 

But your solution seem to point to war and Long Bows prior to the last battle. Hardly sound.

[clutzyninja]

Lol, I understand the difference between a republic and a democracy, but I was not trying to get into semantics, and my points about the fictional land of WoT still apply.  The people of the TR do not understand the political  implications of "reviving Manetheren," and they only really care about Perrin leading them anyway.

[David Selig]

 But where do you get that the majority in TR cares much about reviving Manetheren? I admit I don't reread the Perrin parts much, but that's not my impression at all. They like the banners and all, and they want autonomy for Two Rivers itself, but Manetheren was way bigger than that. I don't recall anyone saying "Let's conquer Western Andor right on the eve of the LB, because Manetheren has to be revived" l or anything like that.

[Agitel]

Perrin doesn't even like the responsibility of being a lord of the Two Rivers. It's just not the life he wants. The idea of leading a succession and starting and leading a rebellion and becoming a king of an entire nation is just a whole huge leap of responsibility he doesn't want for himself, not in any way, really, but especially not in THAT way.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

It doesn't really matter if its a dumb idea if everybody wants it.

Seriously? 

 

 

Its this thing called democracy....

 

You do what the majority wants, not what a group of technocrats thinks is best; which is very patronizing and paternalistic. In fact its inherently undemocratic.

 

If Perrins people want this, who is he to object and what gives Elayne the right to object either if everyone in the Two Rivers does not want to be part of Andor? Also, you're a little too certain that the Two Rivers would lose, there have been plenty of independence movements which though bloody and against a much greater power have succeeded. For example Ireland n Great Britain, the 13 colonies (US) vs Great Britain etc etc  In both those cases you had a rural area with a relatively low population who seemed to have very little chance of success because they were taking the worlds greatest power of the time. It could very easily have went differently and people probably would say what a stupid rebellion either one was with foresight but that's not what happened. I am sure there were Americans who also said that such a war would have only led to a bloodbath at the time as well.

 

I just don't see why Perrin should ignore and run roughshod over what his people want and at the same time know that his tavern nature is putting them in danger.

There is one quite significant difference between Ireland v Britain, and the colonies v Britain: in both cases, the enemy the British were fighting was more than just four villages and a handful of farms, as that's all the TR is. And one of those villages, Taren Ferry, was destroyed in TSR anyway. Until Perrin came along, they had no organisation above the level of village council - to have aspirations of resurrecting a country dead two thousand years that none of them had even heard of until two years ago is ludicrous. Further, let's not overlook that they've benefited from being an untaxed Andoran province for the last century or two - customs free trade with the rest of Andor isn't exactly bad news for them, and a separate TR wouldn't have that privilege. Let's not pretend that Andor has somehow let them down. As for why Perrin should be so opposed, any attempt to resurrect Manetheren contais no discernible benefit to the people of the TR, and many obvious downsides (such as the entire region being wiped out and resettled). Remember, four villages, and Baerlon seemed like a big city to the boys. There aren't that many people in the region. As for why Perrin should ignore what they want, that's his job - he is there to lead, not to obey. To bend before their idiotic whims rather than do what he thinks is best for them is to abandon his responsibility to those he is meant to lead, to put popularity before duty. That's a sign of moral cowardice, to be abhorred and despised.

 

I don't disagree with your succinctly put anti-democratic sentiment, though. "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

[Rhienne]

I think perrin is rightfully reluctant for a number of reasons. First, he doesn't want to start another conflict on the eve of the Last Battle. That would go against everything Rand is trying to achieve. Secondly he doesn't have much faith in his leadership skills until the very end of the series. Yes he is helped by his ta'veren abilities but for most of the series he still sees himself as a simple blacksmith. Secondly I think he has more important and pressing issues to deal with. I doubt he would have time to organise a rebellion with all the other things he has to sort out - the defence of the two rivers, rescuing faile, dealing with the conflicts and tension between his forces.

[Eht Slat Meit]

If "the people" want a figurehead who does what they tell him to do, when they want him to do it, they should have called forth Basil Gill instead of Perrin Goldeneyes.

 

As it is, the idea of initiating a war with the fellow Forces of light, in violation of the Dragon's Peace, and for no other reason than "we want to becuz Manetheren was kewl" is so insanely foolhardy and founded in ignorance of Manetheren's past  that it should be ignored by any sane and reasonable leader. While Manetheren certainly did have a fine reputation, it was also stabbed in the back by every single member Ten Nations alliance, had its prince imprisoned, tortured and horribly mutilated by one nation of said alliance, and was also betrayed by the Amyrlin Seat of that time. It ended up a smoldering ruin, population ravaged by the forces of darkness including those lovely man-eating Trollocs, thanks to all that love from the so-called Forces of Light.

 

So yeah, if you shave off the ugly history, all you have is a nice pretty banner. Tai'shar, hup hup cheerio!

 

But a real nation to live up to? No, time for something new.

[szilard]

It is simple. Perin knows himself: he is pretty dumb.

[clutzyninja]

It is simple. Perin knows himself: he is pretty dumb.

If you think Perrin is dumb, either you haven't read very far or your reading comprehension skills need a lot of work.

[EmperorAllspice]

Yeah, why do people consider Perrin DUMB? Lacking in wisdom due to grief over Faile, sure. But he's not STUPID.

[jedman67]

If "the people" want a figurehead who does what they tell him to do, when they want him to do it, they should have called forth Basil Gill instead of Perrin Goldeneyes.

 

As it is, the idea of initiating a war with the fellow Forces of light, in violation of the Dragon's Peace, and for no other reason than "we want to becuz Manetheren was kewl" is so insanely foolhardy and founded in ignorance of Manetheren's past  that it should be ignored by any sane and reasonable leader. While Manetheren certainly did have a fine reputation, it was also stabbed in the back by every single member Ten Nations alliance, had its prince imprisoned, tortured and horribly mutilated by one nation of said alliance, and was also betrayed by the Amyrlin Seat of that time. It ended up a smoldering ruin, population ravaged by the forces of darkness including those lovely man-eating Trollocs, thanks to all that love from the so-called Forces of Light.

 

So yeah, if you shave off the ugly history, all you have is a nice pretty banner. Tai'shar, hup hup cheerio!

 

But a real nation to live up to? No, time for something new.

Thats a bit melodramatic.