Themed games are too easy?

Niniel · June 23, 2013

On 6/22/2013 at 11:25 PM, Nolder said:

On 6/22/2013 at 10:35 PM, Darthe said:
Theme games should not exist without original themes or mafia safe claims that are strong as hell. Period. DPR says this, Verbal says this, I say this, practically all experienced mafia moderators say this. If I was doing an LOTR theme game based on Fellowship, you can guarantee that between Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli at least one would not be in the game at all and at least two would be mafia fake claims.
You know, giving mafia safe claims is something I'm reluctant to do normally just because I love seeing the wacky and creative claims people come up with sometimes.

He, he. You have made some fun wacky claims. You had a good one prepared in the BT mafia but never got the chance to use it.

I understand what you mean, Tiinker. In the LotR game we weren´t allowed to character claim but the roles were so tied to the characters that it didn´t matter. Somehow it actually made it worse. That was from my sk point of view of course.

I have thought about this and even though I will allow character claims in my next game it won´t matter much since there are a lot of characters to choose from. I´m looking forward to modding that game.

dapianoplay3r · June 23, 2013

What is your theme Tina?

Niniel · June 23, 2013

It´s a secret so far, but it has something to do with the Black Tower.

Nolder · June 23, 2013

On 6/23/2013 at 10:53 AM, TinaHel said:

On 6/22/2013 at 11:25 PM, Nolder said:

On 6/22/2013 at 10:35 PM, Darthe said:
Theme games should not exist without original themes or mafia safe claims that are strong as hell. Period. DPR says this, Verbal says this, I say this, practically all experienced mafia moderators say this. If I was doing an LOTR theme game based on Fellowship, you can guarantee that between Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli at least one would not be in the game at all and at least two would be mafia fake claims.
You know, giving mafia safe claims is something I'm reluctant to do normally just because I love seeing the wacky and creative claims people come up with sometimes.

He, he. You have made some fun wacky claims. You had a good one prepared in the BT mafia but never got the chance to use it.

I understand what you mean, Tiinker. In the LotR game we weren´t allowed to character claim but the roles were so tied to the characters that it didn´t matter. Somehow it actually made it worse. That was from my sk point of view of course.

I have thought about this and even though I will allow character claims in my next game it won´t matter much since there are a lot of characters to choose from. I´m looking forward to modding that game.

Oh yeah I remember that haha. I really wonder how that would have went. Some of my craziest fakeclaims have worked out really well for me in the past.

Mrs. Cindy Gill · June 23, 2013

sadly... that one time you true claimed a horse... though it was one of your very finest moments IMO.... no one believed it.

Nolder · June 23, 2013

On 6/23/2013 at 3:13 PM, cindy said:
sadly... that one time you true claimed a horse... though it was one of your very finest moments IMO.... no one believed it.

What I found even more funny about the whole thing is I'd already used that exact same role a few months prior in a different setting.

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/106148-generic-fantasy-mafia-day-5-game-over/page-30?do=findComment&comment=2094458

Mrs. Cindy Gill · June 23, 2013

.... I was talking about that one...

dear lord, did it happen twice?

Nolder · June 23, 2013

I thought you were talking about the time Jif made ME a horse not the time I made Smash a horse.

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/109326-young-guns-mafia/?p=2217610

Mrs. Cindy Gill · June 23, 2013

Oh, yeah, I was... I saw where the link went and didn't follow :)

Darthe · June 23, 2013

On 6/23/2013 at 10:25 AM, WWWwombat said:

I don't think I did anything super crazy with alignments in that game. I mainly blurred the lines between town and mafia, but basically Stark and Highgarden were town and everyone else was pretty much anti-town to some degree (although Stark and Narrow Sea could win together). I also offered customized fake claims in that game (some of which I thought were pretty cool). I didn't leave out tons of important characters, but there were so many factions and so many characters that it didn't matter that much. Also, the faction leader mechanic was meant to discourage mass reveals and possibly flood the game with survivors so that any faction could achieve hegemony with the right strategy. IIRC, the only faction that remained intact was the King in the Narrow Sea.

The only significant regret I have about that game is that I nerfed the cult too much. Also, Ape is a terrible cult leader. I probably should have rerolled that role.

Speaking of, I wonder how many mods truly do reroll if they look at a setup and the players who got it and say to themselves "nuh-uh".

Des, I loved that game. You guys were a great and fun mafia team. As a matter of fact, you're always fun as mafia.

Nolder · June 23, 2013

I think I've rerolled one time where a player whom I knew tended to join games and disappear got cop. Didn't seem fair so I just switched them with the first vanilla player on my list. This was at least like a year or two ago and I'm not sure if the person is even around anymore.

WWWwombat · June 23, 2013

I reroll about 10% of the time. It usually takes something extreme to make me do it. I like the roles to be as randomized as possible, but I'm not going to run a game I think is doomed to be boring and painful.

michellem · June 23, 2013

I almost fell for the temptation to re-roll when I did my HG mafia now; I gotta admit I was tempted to move people around, and I did end up pressing "randomize" way too many times in hopes of results I thought would be the most fun for me to watch. And then I grabbed myself by the neck, press "randomize" one more time and stuck to it.

Themed games: I don't know, I like them as mafia, makes me have to challenge myself even further to not be noticed. But it can be a killer at endgame.

Mrs. Cindy Gill · June 23, 2013

you soooooooooooooo shoulda made me maf :smile:

was born for it

Basel Gill · June 23, 2013

On 6/23/2013 at 7:11 PM, Darthe said:

On 6/23/2013 at 10:25 AM, WWWwombat said:

I don't think I did anything super crazy with alignments in that game. I mainly blurred the lines between town and mafia, but basically Stark and Highgarden were town and everyone else was pretty much anti-town to some degree (although Stark and Narrow Sea could win together). I also offered customized fake claims in that game (some of which I thought were pretty cool). I didn't leave out tons of important characters, but there were so many factions and so many characters that it didn't matter that much. Also, the faction leader mechanic was meant to discourage mass reveals and possibly flood the game with survivors so that any faction could achieve hegemony with the right strategy. IIRC, the only faction that remained intact was the King in the Narrow Sea.

The only significant regret I have about that game is that I nerfed the cult too much. Also, Ape is a terrible cult leader. I probably should have rerolled that role.

Speaking of, I wonder how many mods truly do reroll if they look at a setup and the players who got it and say to themselves "nuh-uh".

Des, I loved that game. You guys were a great and fun mafia team. As a matter of fact, you're always fun as mafia.

On 6/23/2013 at 7:54 PM, Nolder said:
I think I've rerolled one time where a player whom I knew tended to join games and disappear got cop. Didn't seem fair so I just switched them with the first vanilla player on my list. This was at least like a year or two ago and I'm not sure if the person is even around anymore.

I have done the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure it was with the cop role, although I can't recall for the life of me who the player in question was. About the only other scenario where I would re-roll is if I wound up with a QT containing two players whom I knew absolutely could not stand each other, to the point of being unable to work together for the good of the team. I think that it would kill both the fun and the integrity of the game to have my QT turn into a powderkeg waiting to go off anytime.

Darthe · June 24, 2013

I totally reroll. Sorry, I hosted a single game where I let the pieces fall as they will and it was terrible. If I know that someone is inactive/really bad at something in particular etc then I don't want them to be in a position that it could compromise their team. Thus, while I will not place people individually (though I have been tempted) I typically look at it and see if I think things are even or not before confirming anyone to a slot.

Nolder · June 24, 2013

how do they ever have a chance to get better then?

potential inactivity seems like an ok reason to reroll important roles to me

being bad at them does not

dapianoplay3r · June 24, 2013

I haven't had to do it, but if I was modding a game with a brand new player and they turned up as CL or something I'd swap them with someone. I'd also maybe swap them if they ended up with a mafia PR. I'd let them stick as mafia but goon or the weakest PR

Just to make the game easier

michellem · June 24, 2013

Well that explains how I'm always vanilla in your games Darthe :P lol

Mrs. Cindy Gill · June 24, 2013

I think you may be doing some of them a disservice. you never know what someone can do until they have the opportunity to do it.

is one potentially "bad" game reason enough to ...

well, your call.

WWWwombat · June 24, 2013

On 6/24/2013 at 4:37 AM, Nolder said:

how do they ever have a chance to get better then?

potential inactivity seems like an ok reason to reroll important roles to me

being bad at them does not

Agreed. I used to be pretty mediocre at the doc role. The only way I got better was by rolling the doc role again and again until I finally put everything together. When in doubt, I usually err on the side of random, even with new players (as long as I think they're going to commit). I've seen players do very well with power roles in their first games. I think Cult Leader is so swingy that it requires a good scum player for the game to be balanced, but in the future, I'll probably put some sort of failsafe in rather than risk having to reroll. Ultimately, setups should be balanced around roles, not perceived competence. Of course, it does help to make your setups robust. Players will always do things you won't expect and the setup has to be able to work with that.

Ithillian Turambar · June 24, 2013

On 6/24/2013 at 12:23 PM, WWWwombat said:

On 6/24/2013 at 4:37 AM, Nolder said:

how do they ever have a chance to get better then?

potential inactivity seems like an ok reason to reroll important roles to me

being bad at them does not

Agreed. I used to be pretty mediocre at the doc role. The only way I got better was by rolling the doc role again and again until I finally put everything together. When in doubt, I usually err on the side of random, even with new players (as long as I think they're going to commit). I've seen players do very well with power roles in their first games. I think Cult Leader is so swingy that it requires a good scum player for the game to be balanced, but in the future, I'll probably put some sort of failsafe in rather than risk having to reroll. Ultimately, setups should be balanced around roles, not perceived competence. Of course, it does help to make your setups robust. Players will always do things you won't expect and the setup has to be able to work with that.

I'm a terrible Doc. I've only been it once. I attract too much attention and get killed. Re-roll me if I ever get doc.

_CLOUD · June 24, 2013

I have always wondered if mods actually rerolled in their games or not. I have no modding experience but I agree with Nolder that players should have the chance to try out a new role, otherwise they will never improve their play. The mod has no idea what will happen in their game, and they might actually be surprised on how a newer player might handle a role.

I have also been mafia in every Darthe game that I have played in :laugh: You can keep that trend going for all I care :P

_CLOUD · June 24, 2013

I'm a great Doc, lol.

Ithillian Turambar · June 24, 2013

On 6/24/2013 at 12:25 PM, _CLOUD said:
I'm a great Doc, lol.

Fake Doc lol

Themed games are too easy?

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