Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Lurks]

I totally agree on the suggestion from other posters that he should have been able to wipe the forces of the Light off the table with a bat of his hand.  A full circle and an extremely powerful sa'angreal plus the strength and knowledge of the Forsaken?  Especially bearing in mind that the only channelers facing him for a good chunk of the battle with the Aes Sedai (during the absence of the Seanchan) who should have been numerically roughly matched by the Sharan channelers.  Rand's complete annihilation of the Shadow with an angreal makes no sense when compared with this.  The Fields of Merrilor should have been completely levelled, or at leastly completely destroy Elayne's forces as they were further from him. 

 

 

This is almost certainly true.  But I think there is a plausible explanation though (albeit one not explicitly discussed in the book).  It is arguable that Demandred's ego would not allow him to trash the armies of the light in a single blow  the way Rand trashed the massive shadowspawn army just using an angreal, because part of Demandred wanted to defeat LTT as a general.  Recall that he stated he would not use his sa'angreal to fight LTT because he had to beat him one on one.  I choose to view his failure to wipe out the armies of the light in speedy fashion as a manifestation of his desire to best LTT both at command and in single combat.  From this point of view, we can see his limited (albeit brutal) one power attacks only as an attempt to bait LTT to engage him personally (e.g., face me before I wipe out your army).  It's like a criminal shooting hostages, he doesn't kill them all at once (even though he could), but instead he shoots them one or two at a time until he gets what he wants--in this case, Rand's appearance for a duel.

 

To me, it is the only thing that makes sense, unless you want to argue that Brandon just screwed up how powerful Demandred should have been.

[Aeo Sedai]

 

One possible reason he didn't nuke everyone: creating weaves like that, while powerful take a while to come into being and moving that amount of power around takes time and effort, thus they'd be easily disrupted by any of the AS on the battlefield, since strength doesn't seem to be a factor in cutting weaves, as far as I can remember. 

Except that he had basically 330 or so channellers as a back up who would decimate any "weak" Aes Sedai who channelled near them. Breaking weaves is not simple of the Forsaken would have done it at the cleansing. You have to cut them using a counter-weave because if its done wrong they have unusual consequences. i.e big explosions/stilling everyone involved/make everyone high(okay im joking on that one)

 

But no Aes Sedai would be able to stop most of the weaves Demandred knows. Hell if he did a Rand and opened up a few dozen death gates and had them spinning about most who hadnt seen Rand do it would be in utter confusion whilst they died. and that doesnt count a lot of the other things he knows.

 

I've always been under the impression that weaves could only be disrupted up until a point, at which point they weren't so easily destroyed. For example, you could cut a forming balefire weave or a shield, but once the shield's in place or the balefire reaches a certain point, it's no longer easily cut.

 

The main reason I'm suggesting this is because the War of Power lasted some ten years, and it doesn't appear that it was fought with channellers going about and dropping nukes on one another all that often, even though both sides should have had access to Sa'angreal and full circles just the same, and a lot of the war appears to have been fought with normal people as well, which suggests to me that while Demandred maybe powerful with a circle and Sa'angreal backing him up, that doesn't necessarily mean that power was useful or as useful on the battlefield.

[Lurks]

 

 

One possible reason he didn't nuke everyone: creating weaves like that, while powerful take a while to come into being and moving that amount of power around takes time and effort, thus they'd be easily disrupted by any of the AS on the battlefield, since strength doesn't seem to be a factor in cutting weaves, as far as I can remember. 

Except that he had basically 330 or so channellers as a back up who would decimate any "weak" Aes Sedai who channelled near them. Breaking weaves is not simple of the Forsaken would have done it at the cleansing. You have to cut them using a counter-weave because if its done wrong they have unusual consequences. i.e big explosions/stilling everyone involved/make everyone high(okay im joking on that one)

 

But no Aes Sedai would be able to stop most of the weaves Demandred knows. Hell if he did a Rand and opened up a few dozen death gates and had them spinning about most who hadnt seen Rand do it would be in utter confusion whilst they died. and that doesnt count a lot of the other things he knows.

 

I've always been under the impression that weaves could only be disrupted up until a point, at which point they weren't so easily destroyed. For example, you could cut a forming balefire weave or a shield, but once the shield's in place or the balefire reaches a certain point, it's no longer easily cut.

 

The main reason I'm suggesting this is because the War of Power lasted some ten years, and it doesn't appear that it was fought with channellers going about and dropping nukes on one another all that often, even though both sides should have had access to Sa'angreal and full circles just the same, and a lot of the war appears to have been fought with normal people as well, which suggests to me that while Demandred maybe powerful with a circle and Sa'angreal backing him up, that doesn't necessarily mean that power was useful or as useful on the battlefield.

 

I agree with Morden.  Demandred would have crushed them had he wanted to.  I think it must have been ego and the hostage analogy that I wrote about above that kept him from doing it.

[Morden]

 

 

One possible reason he didn't nuke everyone: creating weaves like that, while powerful take a while to come into being and moving that amount of power around takes time and effort, thus they'd be easily disrupted by any of the AS on the battlefield, since strength doesn't seem to be a factor in cutting weaves, as far as I can remember. 

Except that he had basically 330 or so channellers as a back up who would decimate any "weak" Aes Sedai who channelled near them. Breaking weaves is not simple of the Forsaken would have done it at the cleansing. You have to cut them using a counter-weave because if its done wrong they have unusual consequences. i.e big explosions/stilling everyone involved/make everyone high(okay im joking on that one)

 

But no Aes Sedai would be able to stop most of the weaves Demandred knows. Hell if he did a Rand and opened up a few dozen death gates and had them spinning about most who hadnt seen Rand do it would be in utter confusion whilst they died. and that doesnt count a lot of the other things he knows.

 

I've always been under the impression that weaves could only be disrupted up until a point, at which point they weren't so easily destroyed. For example, you could cut a forming balefire weave or a shield, but once the shield's in place or the balefire reaches a certain point, it's no longer easily cut.

 

The main reason I'm suggesting this is because the War of Power lasted some ten years, and it doesn't appear that it was fought with channellers going about and dropping nukes on one another all that often, even though both sides should have had access to Sa'angreal and full circles just the same, and a lot of the war appears to have been fought with normal people as well, which suggests to me that while Demandred maybe powerful with a circle and Sa'angreal backing him up, that doesn't necessarily mean that power was useful or as useful on the battlefield.

 

The OP was the main driving force in the War of Power, but not many channellers are all that fond of sticking their necks into the noose, we've seen that enough in the WoT. Yes when push comes to shove they will step in, but they prefer letting mere mortals duke it out and get decimated in their place.

 

All comes down to numbers though, Demandreds backup alone could take chewed the remaining Aes Sedai six ways to sunday because they were all at full strength and the Aes Sedai were all tired. (ignoring the fact that every AS in Egwenes camp was brimming with Angrael/Sa'angrael.)

 

I just think the Shadow have a really warped sense of humour and enjoy systematically wiping out their foes one by one, rather than cutting off the head of the snake. That was Demandreds strategy to a point because he wanted Rand, but its still not a very clever one, nor was not having eyes and ears in Shayol Ghul (i.e a Crow...)

[Axon]

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

[Jak o' the Shadows]

I would have enjoyed his Arc much better if it was more about his excellent battle tactics.  Mat makes a move, it's epic.  Demmy counters with a brilliant move, armies of the Light get mauled.  Mat counters, turns it to his advantage, etc.

 

 

Rather, we get uber power caster shooting balefire randomly, screaming for LTT, and dueling.   


Seemed out of context and lame.   The Dreadlords and Shara casters are enough to sow 'caster chaos'.  Let Demmy be Demmy and command the armies, play to his character.

 

 

*shrug*

[Torome]

M'Hael mentions that Demandred seems to need a good amount of time to recover after using Sakarnen.  Infact he comes up to Demandred while he is meditating.  Another is that he is on the offense.  The defender picks where the attack will happen, the attacker picks the time, so Mat is able to use the terrain to his advantage more than Demandred(it is even mentioned in the book somewhere but I can't remember which chapter), so we see a lot more of Mat's counter tactics.  Finally, the fact that we are not supposed to know everything.  As readers we tend to be spoiled in how much we know about the world.  It could be said that we know more about their world than any of them do.  We shouldn't know what everyone is thinking because it would be less fun.  We should be thankful for what we get instead of complaining about what we didn't.

[MauricXe]

   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

 

Indeed. Lews Therin sounds like a real easy guy to hate.

 

He is good at everything. The strongest male channeler, intelligent, good looking, tall and well built, writes the best books, has a hot wife, a great general, leader of the Aes Sedai, probably the master of whatever career he held, can draw really well, probably was good at some musical instrument and singing, and what makes it really bad....he was arrogant.

 

All of his qualities aren't a big deal...until you factor in the arrogance.  I don't think I would have liked him either....in fact I don't lol. I could only imagine having to live under his shadow.  

[Sabio]

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

[mike hunt's here]

 

Demandred probably was the best swordsman. But Lan has author immortality and a shield. It was grotesque though. Literally the same scene three times over. It was incredibly lazy writing

 

According to Demandred, LTT was better.

 

Everytime Demandred screamed "Lews Therin", in my head it was Iron Bars screaming "Skinner"!

 

The conclusion actually made me think of the final "angel" show (tv).  Where Lorne kills Lindsey - and Lindsey yells " you dont get to kill me, Angel Kills me!!!  Not his underling"

 

Hopefully I'm not the only buffy the vampire watcher here....haha.

[Mightelove]

It was as I had always thought.  No doubt that Demandred did truly turn to evil and do many evil things, but his story is probably the most tragic of the Chosen.  He didn't really have a good reason to join the Shadow except he really didn't feel he had anywhere else to go.  He was pushed and pushed by a prideful and arrogant Lews Therin until he was twisted into something slightly less than a man.  The potential was always there, for him to be more or for him to be different.

 

Not quite as tall or quite as charming, in the end he even lost the woman he loved to Lews Therin.

 

That was the most tragic thing, that if Lews Therin had extended his hand in friendship instead of always having to be the big badass, Berid Bel Medar would have never turned into Demandred.  He would have been a force to be reckoned with on the side of Light, just as he was for the Shadow.  He may have been a greater force for Light than for Shadow simply because he wouldn't have had that overwhelming hatred skewing every thought and action.

 

Further tragedy can be seen in how Demandred showed signs of changing near the end.  He fell in love again and made friends.  He felt an urge to protect the people he had come to rule. 

 

"A damn shame."  That sums up Demandred, his entire life in three words.

[Agitel]

I can't wait for River of Souls. Apparently it's a sequence of deleted scenes (plural!) that's a complete plot arc. It was cut because they felt that Brandon was introducing too much new stuff at the climax, and perhaps that's true. I feel like the Demandred we got, popping up all over the place and calling for Lews Therin, would have fit better in context with these scenes, even if some would call them "distracting." At least I hope. I'm really looking forward to reading them. It seems like Brandon really wanted to flesh out his character and plotline.

[morkhon]

 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

Except Demandred told Taim that he (Dem) wouldn't use the sa'angreal against Rand. "He will come, and when he does, I will face him unaided and prove myself the true master of this realm."

[Suttree]

That was the most tragic thing, that if Lews Therin had extended his hand in friendship instead of always having to be the big badass, Berid Bel Medar would have never turned into Demandred. He would have been a force to be reckoned with on the side of Light, just as he was for the Shadow

That isn't entirely true. We know LTT was not the perfect guy we all initially thought but its not as if he never extended his hand. It most certainly doesn't excuse Demandred for going over or even necessarily make it tragic for that matter.

 

... Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over.

 

- Lord of Chaos, A New Arrival

Again LTT has blame no doubt, but much like Lanfear the seed was already there.

[Ruth]

 Barid Bel, if you recall in aMoL, does at one point say "I've improved see he and I last met."  So he hasn't been idly sitting by, playing with his concubine.  Like most historical warlords of any renown, he probably used his skill to defeat those who got in his way, to prove himself as "The Wyld", and kept in constant practice to increase his skills.  (A lazy Warlord is a dead one.)  For the longest time, I've compared him with Caesar, but from what we were shown, I'd say he was presented more as Attila or Temujin.  

 

So, as far as his skills as a blademaster go, I find it shocking that people misunderstood the whole bit from WH, where he thought to himself that Generals aren't supposed to fight with the ranker soldiers, as meaning he was weak in one-on-one combat.  Very few generals worth the name would ever go down with the ranker soldiers...EXCEPT if they were on the point of breaking and needed rallying, then their general would show them his courage by joining them.  A general who fought from the front-lines was considered an idiot for the simple fact that you can't general anything if you're dead!  It's your JOB to stay back and direct your troops!!

 

Anyway, so I wasn't surprised he beat Gawyn or Galad, thanks to Brandon's answers.  I wasn't surprised by Lan either.  Here is Barid Bel, the GREATEST general their world has ever known (remember, he accepted that Mat was wonderful, but Mat also had the memories of countless battles to draw up...Barid Bel had 10 YEARS of the War of Power, and he was running Mat into the ground no matter what he came up with!!)  He spent all his time out of the Bore building up his battle skills, and it took the most legendary blademaster alive, with an anti-channeling medallion on, who had to SHEATHE THE SWORD to bring him down!!  Barid Bel BEYOND proved he was the best (cause Rand sure as hell never beat Lan!  Barid Bel very well might have without Lan's "Arthur defeats Mordred" move!)

 

He obliterated the combined forces of the Light, and again, it took Mr. Creator's Immunity "Sheathing the Sword" to bring him down.  So yes, this is one satisfied "fan-girl".

 

Barid Bel/Damandred should have won. He had all the cards stacked in his favor. Rand could not have won against him in a duel or as general of the Light armies. Mat could barely out think him with all of his war memories and Damandred had vastly more forces and power. He lost because he dueled the three and should have simply killed them outright. He was over confident in his swordsman abilities. I wasn'r his fan, but I found him very believable characterwise and the Shara followers believable and thought he might win right up until Lan. I was very surprised that Lan took him. His yelling was annoying, but I didn't question his seeking Rand/LTT on the battle field as this is what happened the last time and his mistake was in not understanding that Rand had superceded LTT. He didn't understand Rand. If it had been LTT he was up against, he would likely have won as LTT would not have united the Light forces as Rand did and LTT loved being in the battle. LTT would have been there facing off against him.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I was just confused, as it's been said before, why Demandred didn't know Rand was at Shoyal Ghul fighting the Dark One.  The Forsaken knew the Prophecies of the Dragon - Ishamael messed with them to distract the Seanchan and corrupted the different versions of it.  I can't imagine that Demandred never read up on them or even skimmed through them a little bit - he should have known that Rand would end up fighting the Dark One.  Even Elza knew that Rand had to survive in order to fight the Dark One, and she was just a Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

 

Demandred was pretty cool in my opinion, but the three swordfights were a bit taxing, especially when he ripped off Galad's arm.  I mean, come on.  He actually pulled Galad's arm off?

 

I figured the sa'angreal would come into play, and I was pretty excited when he was in a full circle of 72.  For some reason that really got me going.  But all in all, I was like "where did this Bao the Wyld thing come from and what is the deal with Demandred and this warrior Xena lady?" - Graendal's mention of the Sharans and Sammael's conversation about them just seemed like distracting information.  Why not go to the Island of Madmen and get an army from there, too?

[papertiger]

Mr Hunt,

 

I totally agree on the Angel vibe; Demandred definitely had a Lindsey thing going for him. He even ditches his love interest because he couldn't stay out of the fight.

 

I also like the balance of macro and micro with Mat and Lan, and that Lan, not Mat, is the only one capable of beating Demandred. No ta'veren magic, just pure conviction.

[decrepid dragon]

I was just confused, as it's been said before, why Demandred didn't know Rand was at Shoyal Ghul fighting the Dark One.  The Forsaken knew the Prophecies of the Dragon - Ishamael messed with them to distract the Seanchan and corrupted the different versions of it.  I can't imagine that Demandred never read up on them or even skimmed through them a little bit - he should have known that Rand would end up fighting the Dark One.  Even Elza knew that Rand had to survive in order to fight the Dark One, and she was just a Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

 

Demandred was pretty cool in my opinion, but the three swordfights were a bit taxing, especially when he ripped off Galad's arm.  I mean, come on.  He actually pulled Galad's arm off?

 

I figured the sa'angreal would come into play, and I was pretty excited when he was in a full circle of 72.  For some reason that really got me going.  But all in all, I was like "where did this Bao the Wyld thing come from and what is the deal with Demandred and this warrior Xena lady?" - Graendal's mention of the Sharans and Sammael's conversation about them just seemed like distracting information.  Why not go to the Island of Madmen and get an army from there, too?

He didn't pull galad's arm off, read page 736 again. He cuts Galads forearm deeply, and the damaged muscle rips when they lock into a contest of strength. This renders Galads arm useless, then Demandred cuts it off with a sword.

 

I am in line with all those people who argue his reasons for not crushing the Light, because he thought he would need to fight LTT, and he was sure that LTT was there somewhere, saving his strength to ambush him. I wouldn't say that his destroying half the tower army with his entrance and killing heaps of channelers, as well as blasting thousands away with the OP is useless, just not as heavy handed as he could have been. I agree with those people who say Sakarnan had an impact on him, leaving him drained. Being able to bond to a sa'angreal seems to indicate the possibility some serious side effects.

 

As for why Demandred didn't know Rand was at the Bore, because that is not what Lews Therin would do. We know Rand would, most other forsaken knew he would, but as was mentioned earlier in the series Demandred had taken his anger at LTT and transferred it completely. He simply couldn't accept Rand as anyone but LTT in a different body, especially since Lanfear confirmed he remembered things from the AoL. If Dem had realised it was a different person, then his revenge would have been a pale thing, not really his revenge and final proving point at all. If that is the case then why did he join the Shadow, why did he kill all those people? He wasn't exactly a very nice person, true, but he fought for the Light a long time before joining the DO, and even then for mainly personal reasons that had little to do with the usual "I wants Ma POWA!" Its why I find Ishmael the other most compelling forsaken. Funnily enough I liked Lanfear because she actually was COMPLETELY self absorbed, and a ridiculously good actor. That her selfishness extended to her planning to earn everything for saving the DO itself is midlblowing ambitious.

 

Demandred was the most human of the forsaken, blinded by his emotions and drives other than personal ambition. He was the second greatest man of the best age in recorded history, He conquered an entire Nation larger than Randland and got them to fight for the shadow despite not being darkfriends with his comptence and personality (I doubt they would have followed him if he had the temperament of a scribe, no matter how powerful). Like Rand his humanity and objectives, his self imposed standards as something other than gain the most personal power at the least risk to himself and emotions other than selfishness and cruelty, not that he didn't have those in spades but there were other things in there too, were ultimately the source of both his greatest triumphs and greatest failures.

 

edited to add more stuff

[Axon]

 

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

 

While he def. tells Gawyan that he wants a fight with a sword, he subsequently tells Taim he wants to take LTT on with the one power.  Homeboy was cray cray 

[decrepid dragon]

 

 

 

 

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

 

While he def. tells Gawyan that he wants a fight with a sword, he subsequently tells Taim he wants to take LTT on with the one power.  Homeboy was cray cray 

He wanted to prove that in warfare, the one thing he was acknowledged as better at than LTT, that he was completely the master. He wanted things to go like this:

Step 1 - Defeat LTT armies with own armies. He may have outnumbered them, and trollocs are stronger than a man 1v1, but formations and different weapons, able to travel through gateways, individual initative, all that stuff that men have, while trollocs only have tight formation charge and tight formation stand still, made the fight even-ish enough to satisfy Barid.

Step 2 - Defeat LTT with OP. Be it mano a mano, or circle with sa'angreal vs circle with sa'angreal. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if LTT had shown with a circle of 25 and callendor Demandred would have broken all but 25 people out of his circle.

Step 3 - Defeat LTT in hand to hand combat once all other threats are nuetralised.

Step 4 - Smile for the first time in 3000 years, because damn you are awesome.

 

Cray cray? Probably more than a little. Completely batty? Not quite there yet. There are some people like this in the world, they just dwell and internalise their problem more and more, making it into a bigger and more powerful emotion than it was in an infinite loop. And he has had a looooong time to build hatred for LTT.

[Entreri]

Demandred wanted to fight LTT as a blademaster and channeler simultaneously to prove he is #1. 

 

Blademasters: LTT (as usual #1), Demandred (the prerennial #2)...after this the rankings purely guess work.  Sammael/Bel'lal, Asmodean/ Ishamael

 

I would wager than Demandred is now as good as LTT was.

 

As a channeler Demandred would have lost, Rand Sedai is too much for even Shai'tan.  

 

As a blademaster, Rand two handed would have lost even with LTT's memories, due to lack of practice. Demandred has been praticising to prove he is also the better blademaster (see his PoV).  

 

 

Demandred to Gawyn:

 

"I was always the better general.  I will prove it here. I would have you tell that to Lews Theirn, but you will not live long enough, little swordsman".  

 

"If you do survive this and see Lews Therin, Demandred said, tell him I am very much looking forward to a match between the two of us, sword against against sword. I have improved since we last met".

 

The scar in Sammael's face...likely from LTT's mad sword skillz.

[Guest Algid]

I think people are misinterpreting the point of the "Bao of the Wyld" persona and the prophecies attached to it.  It's not about hinting at the crazy adventures of Demandred in Shara, it's hinting at things that are just starting to become fulfilled.  Bao of the Wyld isn't some chump that gets himself killed in a fit of megalomania, individual prophecies might refer to lesser characters (Luc, Isam and Ituralde getting single lines in dark prophecies for example), but a series of true prophecies pretty much always referred to only one person.

 

Several of the titles and attributes of Bao of the Wyld:

"He Who Is Owned Only by the Land" -
"He just had not had the leisure to have a real look at much of the world. That will be new, he thought. Traveling without being chased, or having to rule here or there. Traveling where he could just sleep in a barn in exchange for splitting someone’s firewood."

"Dragonslayer" (assuming this isn't something Demandred added himself) -
"Rand al’Thor - just Rand al’Thor - woke in a dark tent by himself."

'Ayyad,' Moghedien said to the three, 'did you see me craft weaves?' Both women and the grimy man shook their heads. 'I kill without weaves,' Moghedien said, 'only I, your Wyld, could have done this.' -
"He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit. And it was."

[flinn]

I think people are misinterpreting the point of the "Bao of the Wyld" persona and the prophecies attached to it.  It's not about hinting at the crazy adventures of Demandred in Shara, it's hinting at things that are just starting to become fulfilled.  Bao of the Wyld isn't some chump that gets himself killed in a fit of megalomania, individual prophecies might refer to lesser characters (Luc, Isam and Ituralde getting single lines in dark prophecies for example), but a series of true prophecies pretty much always referred to only one person.

 

Several of the titles and attributes of Bao of the Wyld:

 

"He Who Is Owned Only by the Land" -

"He just had not had the leisure to have a real look at much of the world. That will be new, he thought. Traveling without being chased, or having to rule here or there. Traveling where he could just sleep in a barn in exchange for splitting someone’s firewood."

 

"Dragonslayer" (assuming this isn't something Demandred added himself) -

"Rand al’Thor - just Rand al’Thor - woke in a dark tent by himself."

 

'Ayyad,' Moghedien said to the three, 'did you see me craft weaves?' Both women and the grimy man shook their heads. 'I kill without weaves,' Moghedien said, 'only I, your Wyld, could have done this.' -

"He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit. And it was."

Good points.

[Axon]

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

 

While he def. tells Gawyan that he wants a fight with a sword, he subsequently tells Taim he wants to take LTT on with the one power.  Homeboy was cray cray 

He wanted to prove that in warfare, the one thing he was acknowledged as better at than LTT, that he was completely the master. He wanted things to go like this:

Step 1 - Defeat LTT armies with own armies. He may have outnumbered them, and trollocs are stronger than a man 1v1, but formations and different weapons, able to travel through gateways, individual initative, all that stuff that men have, while trollocs only have tight formation charge and tight formation stand still, made the fight even-ish enough to satisfy Barid.

Step 2 - Defeat LTT with OP. Be it mano a mano, or circle with sa'angreal vs circle with sa'angreal. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if LTT had shown with a circle of 25 and callendor Demandred would have broken all but 25 people out of his circle.

Step 3 - Defeat LTT in hand to hand combat once all other threats are nuetralised.

Step 4 - Smile for the first time in 3000 years, because damn you are awesome.

 

Cray cray? Probably more than a little. Completely batty? Not quite there yet. There are some people like this in the world, they just dwell and internalise their problem more and more, making it into a bigger and more powerful emotion than it was in an infinite loop. And he has had a looooong time to build hatred for LTT.

I understand all that, and sure, that was his plan in his mind.  Still, there were just a lot of hints (and some over comments) about his possible insanity.  At the least, he had a white whale type obsession with LTT, to the detriment of the shadow's forces.   Having thought about it, his issue is better described as an obsession rather than insanity.  Dem otherwise was pretty clearly not insane.

 

My opinion is that he would have lost in a confrontation with Rand/LTT anyway....all Rand does is eat these guys for breakfast.  

[flinn]

I know some people seem to think Demandred was over done, but to me ALL the other Forsaken were vastly underdone.

 

They were like the three stooges cloned. It was always one of my biggest complaints of the entire series. They never lived up to being legendary "monsters", they were some of the most inept "criminals" I have witnessed in literature or tv.

 

Didnt help that they got owned over and over and over again. Punished relentlessly for their failures, given new bodies after getting killed over and over, it was really quite baffling how the newbie channelers could beat them hands down over and over and over.