Error with Lan?

[Colin Sullivan]

When Lan and Demandred engaged in the duel, Lan notices that they are encircled by Sharans. He infers that this means Demandred is so confident in his sword fighting ability that he has forbidden his followers to interfere. Demandred's death is confirmed by the perspective of his Sharan girlfriend (or whatever). Then, somehow Lan is still alive, despite being stabbed in the stomach and surrounded by the enemy (some of whom held crossbows, while others were presumably Ayyad.) It seems like that aspect of the plot was seriously overlooked, because Lan would have been killed by Demandred's followers. It's not as if he could have dispatched dozens of crossbowmen by himself, especially wounded.

 

I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but it would be extremely difficult to search for something as specific as this. What are the thoughts of the community on this?

[Colin Sullivan]

Damn. I just read the forum rules (I should have done so prior to posting. I apologize.) If the title of this thread is too revealing, could a moderator please edit it? I assumed "Full Spoiler Discussion" meant full disclosure. I don't know if it matters, because anyone who enters this forum is going to have the entire story reduced to a summary. Anyways, I would change it myself, but I apparently do not have that ability. Thank you and sorry again for the oversight.

[MasterAblar]

No problem, I took Demandred out of the title. If you want a different title feel free to ask.

[BFG]

When Lan and Demandred engaged in the duel, Lan notices that they are encircled by Sharans. He infers that this means Demandred is so confident in his sword fighting ability that he has forbidden his followers to interfere. Demandred's death is confirmed by the perspective of his Sharan girlfriend (or whatever). Then, somehow Lan is still alive, despite being stabbed in the stomach and surrounded by the enemy (some of whom held crossbows, while others were presumably Ayyad.) It seems like that aspect of the plot was seriously overlooked, because Lan would have been killed by Demandred's followers. It's not as if he could have dispatched dozens of crossbowmen by himself, especially wounded.

 

I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but it would be extremely difficult to search for something as specific as this. What are the thoughts of the community on this?

 

Welcome to the boards ashesofman.

 

I've read some speculation that Rand helped Lan live based on the timing of Lan's 'death' and Rands 'that man still lives' speech.  I'm not sure I follow that, but I guess it's possible to assume that the enemy thought Lan was dead until he stood up at which point seeing Demandreds head caused them to give up.  It's not my favourite part of the book.

[Rhienne]

 

When Lan and Demandred engaged in the duel, Lan notices that they are encircled by Sharans. He infers that this means Demandred is so confident in his sword fighting ability that he has forbidden his followers to interfere. Demandred's death is confirmed by the perspective of his Sharan girlfriend (or whatever). Then, somehow Lan is still alive, despite being stabbed in the stomach and surrounded by the enemy (some of whom held crossbows, while others were presumably Ayyad.) It seems like that aspect of the plot was seriously overlooked, because Lan would have been killed by Demandred's followers. It's not as if he could have dispatched dozens of crossbowmen by himself, especially wounded.

 

I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but it would be extremely difficult to search for something as specific as this. What are the thoughts of the community on this?

 

Welcome to the boards ashesofman.

 

I've read some speculation that Rand helped Lan live based on the timing of Lan's 'death' and Rands 'that man still lives' speech.  I'm not sure I follow that, but I guess it's possible to assume that the enemy thought Lan was dead until he stood up at which point seeing Demandreds head caused them to give up.  It's not my favourite part of the book.

 

I think BS said that something to the extent that this was what he and RJ had specifically intended, but that it wasn't wrong either, i.e. its up to the reader to decide.  However, even if Rand had interfered and brought Lan back from the dead/the brink of death, it still took some time for Mat and his little group to get to Lan.  Even if this was only 30 seconds, this would still have been plenty of time to turn him into a pin cushion.

[Aulduron]

Either he was dead and Rand somehow brought him back, they thought he was dead, or they were in shock over the death of Demandred. Gawyn and Galad were both left for dead.

 

I think the biggest mistake in those scenes was them talking. Lan should know better (though his dialogue was excellent). It was worse for Gawyn. He was hard to see. He blew that by talking.

[Colin Sullivan]

Thank you for the edit Master Ablar, and thank you for the wecome, BFG.

 

If I recall correctly, there is no way to ressurect the dead using the One Power. It's beyond even the Dark One's ability to do so. He has to capture the soul of the deceased and house it in a living body that has had it's soul removed. I think life is soley the Creator's province. But I may be wrong.

 

I think BS may have screwed up. I feel like saying "that's how RJ wanted it done" is a major copout. If RJ wanted it that way, he could have at least fleshed it out. I don't think he would have intentionally left something so significant that vague. If he did, then it was lazy writing at best.

[Aulduron]

If Rand did it, he might not have used the power, but touched the pattern instead. 

[Entreri]

IMO first "mistake" was Gawyn failing with 3 rings, made no sense.

 

While I personally like the anime style of one upping...Gawyn, Galad and finally taking Lan to kill Demandred, it made no sense for the WoT.

 

Lastly, there is no way Demandred would be as good (Lan's PoV implied that if he was well rested it may have turned out different) or a hair better than Lan. Only in the 10 year span (War of Power) did Demandred have any battlefied experience, without question, only a handful would have been with the sword. Aes Sedai of AoL were OP users (did you see any AS or Asha'man using the sword in battle in AMOL?)...now even in the more primitive medieval setting of Randland, without Rand, no Asha'man would train the sword and most disdain it.

 

This is akin to me beating Anderson Silva if I was 400 years old with some MMA practice...my full time job being a desk jockey.  Never going to happen.

[Aulduron]

Before the bore they discovered the "game" of swords. I don't know if this contributed to his being a blademaster.

[mbuehner]

This didn't bother me- a guy who the Power couldn't touch just cut their God's head off and apparently rose from the dead with a sword through his chest, I'd run away rather than put a crossbow bolt in him. In my opinion this would have been much more powerful without all the other dueling nonsense. You could buy Demandred getting bored and making his people stand down so he can duel an enemy captain once... three, four times? Come on.

[jedman67]

Before the bore they discovered the "game" of swords. I don't know if this contributed to his being a blademaster.

It became a pastime, a game for them. Just like chess is a game today,

I believe that Rand used his Ta'veren influence to keep Lan alive just a bit longer for help to come and save him.

also not one of my favorite parts of the book.

[BFG]

 

 

When Lan and Demandred engaged in the duel, Lan notices that they are encircled by Sharans. He infers that this means Demandred is so confident in his sword fighting ability that he has forbidden his followers to interfere. Demandred's death is confirmed by the perspective of his Sharan girlfriend (or whatever). Then, somehow Lan is still alive, despite being stabbed in the stomach and surrounded by the enemy (some of whom held crossbows, while others were presumably Ayyad.) It seems like that aspect of the plot was seriously overlooked, because Lan would have been killed by Demandred's followers. It's not as if he could have dispatched dozens of crossbowmen by himself, especially wounded.

 

I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but it would be extremely difficult to search for something as specific as this. What are the thoughts of the community on this?

 

Welcome to the boards ashesofman.

 

I've read some speculation that Rand helped Lan live based on the timing of Lan's 'death' and Rands 'that man still lives' speech.  I'm not sure I follow that, but I guess it's possible to assume that the enemy thought Lan was dead until he stood up at which point seeing Demandreds head caused them to give up.  It's not my favourite part of the book.

 

I think BS said that something to the extent that this was what he and RJ had specifically intended, but that it wasn't wrong either, i.e. its up to the reader to decide.  However, even if Rand had interfered and brought Lan back from the dead/the brink of death, it still took some time for Mat and his little group to get to Lan.  Even if this was only 30 seconds, this would still have been plenty of time to turn him into a pin cushion.

 

 

 

Thank you for the edit Master Ablar, and thank you for the wecome, BFG.

 

If I recall correctly, there is no way to ressurect the dead using the One Power. It's beyond even the Dark One's ability to do so. He has to capture the soul of the deceased and house it in a living body that has had it's soul removed. I think life is soley the Creator's province. But I may be wrong.

 

I think BS may have screwed up. I feel like saying "that's how RJ wanted it done" is a major copout. If RJ wanted it that way, he could have at least fleshed it out. I don't think he would have intentionally left something so significant that vague. If he did, then it was lazy writing at best.

 

No worries and nice topic choice :)

 

Except when Rand was outside of the pattern he was doing something more than just using the various true and one powers.  This is cemented with the pipe, and presumably that was only possible after he'd stepped out of the pattern.  It wasn't my theory so I can't defend it to well. 

 

Either way Rhienne has an excellent point that there was still time following his standing up and Mats rescue party reaching him for him to die.  The only explanation is that most people nearby had a similar reaction to Demi's girlfriend and fell to their knees in despair.

 

IMO first "mistake" was Gawyn failing with 3 rings, made no sense.

 

While I personally like the anime style of one upping...Gawyn, Galad and finally taking Lan to kill Demandred, it made no sense for the WoT.

 

Lastly, there is no way Demandred would be as good (Lan's PoV implied that if he was well rested it may have turned out different) or a hair better than Lan. Only in the 10 year span (War of Power) did Demandred have any battlefied experience, without question, only a handful would have been with the sword. Aes Sedai of AoL were OP users (did you see any AS or Asha'man using the sword in battle in AMOL?)...now even in the more primitive medieval setting of Randland, without Rand, no Asha'man would train the sword and most disdain it.

 

This is akin to me beating Anderson Silva if I was 400 years old with some MMA practice...my full time job being a desk jockey.  Never going to happen.

 

I think male Channelers have a natural advantage, back in tGH Rand faces off against a blademaster and is losing until he finds the void.  Demandred knows how to do this in an instant.  The arc with Lan makes perfect sense and brings the story round to the beginning, both with the sheathing the sword and also back in NS, it's a practically identical situation.  I wish the bit with Gawyn and Galad worked slightly differently.  Additionally Demandred had to be taken out somehow.  Out of the Channelers powerful enough to do it, Rand and Nyn are busy, Logain wouldn't work storywise as his glory was meant to be choosing the children and leading the BT, Eg also seems pretty well matched against Taim...  So it had to be someone else with the ability to kill him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Demandred has been channeling for around 380 years. "Swords" was like fencing in the AoL, so the skill and technique was developed in several of the Forsaken. Then they had 10 years of constant, brutal warfare. On a scale much larger than anything the 3rd Age has ever seen since the Trolloc Wars. 

 

Then two years improving in "Third Age" combat uniting his Sharan faction. (Shara is in civil turmoil for most of the time) 

 

Channeling - as mentioned - gives an extra advantage with heightened senses, plus a few weaves that can even out the playing field. (Lan dodges stones the size of a horses head) 

 

Demandred was also fatigued though. Galad gave him a few cuts, and even with healing, blasting thousands of people with a huge sa'angreal and a full circle takes its toll. 

 

Nonetheless, it's safe to say he was in a much better condition than the non-channeler, un-healed Lan who - realistically - shouldn't have even been able to fight that long. 

 

Demandred was also holding back because he thought Lan was Lews Therin, and he was distracted because he was weary of "Lews Therin" channeling at him at some point. So he wasn't even completely focused. 

 

 

I think it's safe to say that the scenario showed how skilled Lan actually was. Considering all factors, he is lucky to have done what he did and not be cut down within seconds.

 

The skill/experience debate is practically invalid. Rand defeated a seasoned blademaster after 4-6 months of intermittent training. He was apparently only second to Lan after a year. 

You could say that was Lews Therin's ability - in which case you could say Demandred could have been equally as good. But we also have Galad and Gawyn - who become 2 of the top 5 blademasters in the Westlands within 2 years. 

 

Considering all of the unrealistic development of skill, Demandred is one of the more plausible scenarios comparatively. 

 

 

 

[ReleaseTheEvil]

IMO first "mistake" was Gawyn failing with 3 rings, made no sense.

 

While I personally like the anime style of one upping...Gawyn, Galad and finally taking Lan to kill Demandred, it made no sense for the WoT.

 

Lastly, there is no way Demandred would be as good (Lan's PoV implied that if he was well rested it may have turned out different) or a hair better than Lan. Only in the 10 year span (War of Power) did Demandred have any battlefied experience, without question, only a handful would have been with the sword. Aes Sedai of AoL were OP users (did you see any AS or Asha'man using the sword in battle in AMOL?)...now even in the more primitive medieval setting of Randland, without Rand, no Asha'man would train the sword and most disdain it.

 

This is akin to me beating Anderson Silva if I was 400 years old with some MMA practice...my full time job being a desk jockey.  Never going to happen.

 

Brandon sort of talks about your Gawyn point here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/c9fots5

[mbuehner]

 

 

Brandon sort of talks about your Gawyn point here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/c9fots5

 

 

I like this. Although I think i prefer the comment: "He died because he didn't realize he was a secondary protagonist."

[mbuehner]

Demandred has been channeling for around 380 years. "Swords" was like fencing in the AoL, so the skill and technique was developed in several of the Forsaken. Then they had 10 years of constant, brutal warfare. On a scale much larger than anything the 3rd Age has ever seen since the Trolloc Wars. 

 

Then two years improving in "Third Age" combat uniting his Sharan faction. (Shara is in civil turmoil for most of the time) 

 

Channeling - as mentioned - gives an extra advantage with heightened senses, plus a few weaves that can even out the playing field. (Lan dodges stones the size of a horses head) 

 

Demandred was also fatigued though. Galad gave him a few cuts, and even with healing, blasting thousands of people with a huge sa'angreal and a full circle takes its toll. 

 

Nonetheless, it's safe to say he was in a much better condition than the non-channeler, un-healed Lan who - realistically - shouldn't have even been able to fight that long. 

 

Demandred was also holding back because he thought Lan was Lews Therin, and he was distracted because he was weary of "Lews Therin" channeling at him at some point. So he wasn't even completely focused. 

 

 

I think it's safe to say that the scenario showed how skilled Lan actually was. Considering all factors, he is lucky to have done what he did and not be cut down within seconds.

 

The skill/experience debate is practically invalid. Rand defeated a seasoned blademaster after 4-6 months of intermittent training. He was apparently only second to Lan after a year. 

You could say that was Lews Therin's ability - in which case you could say Demandred could have been equally as good. But we also have Galad and Gawyn - who become 2 of the top 5 blademasters in the Westlands within 2 years. 

 

Considering all of the unrealistic development of skill, Demandred is one of the more plausible scenarios comparatively. 

 

Well, practically I disagree. Demandred made it a point that generals dont do the fighting. If your commanding, uber-channeling general is in a sword fight (much less more than one), something has gone horribly wrong.

 

But ultimately, I agree on the basis that Demandred is Demandred. He's a powerful channeler, which gives him the void, plus something else. Anti-aging. Us normal mortals battle the increase in knowledge and skill over time with the degrading of our speed and strength and recovery time due to aging. Even top athletes only have a short window at their peak... and thats with modern training, medicine, nutrition, and (ahem) 'help'.  Channelers like Demandred and Rand would be in their top form for perhaps a hundred years, a huge advantage.  Beyond that, Demandred particularly is one of those people that is just immensely gifted.. which generally means he has learned to work immensely hard at whatever he is trying to achieve. I agree in ten or so years he should be a superior swordsman to galad or gawyn, plus be in comparable physical condition which would be a large advantage over Lan (who is compounded by having been constantly in battle for hours on top of weeks).

[Entreri]

Demandred has been channeling for around 380 years. "Swords" was like fencing in the AoL, so the skill and technique was developed in several of the Forsaken. Then they had 10 years of constant, brutal warfare. On a scale much larger than anything the 3rd Age has ever seen since the Trolloc Wars. 

 

Then two years improving in "Third Age" combat uniting his Sharan faction. (Shara is in civil turmoil for most of the time) 

 

Channeling - as mentioned - gives an extra advantage with heightened senses, plus a few weaves that can even out the playing field. (Lan dodges stones the size of a horses head) 

 

Demandred was also fatigued though. Galad gave him a few cuts, and even with healing, blasting thousands of people with a huge sa'angreal and a full circle takes its toll. 

 

Nonetheless, it's safe to say he was in a much better condition than the non-channeler, un-healed Lan who - realistically - shouldn't have even been able to fight that long. 

 

Demandred was also holding back because he thought Lan was Lews Therin, and he was distracted because he was weary of "Lews Therin" channeling at him at some point. So he wasn't even completely focused. 

 

 

I think it's safe to say that the scenario showed how skilled Lan actually was. Considering all factors, he is lucky to have done what he did and not be cut down within seconds.

 

The skill/experience debate is practically invalid. Rand defeated a seasoned blademaster after 4-6 months of intermittent training. He was apparently only second to Lan after a year. 

You could say that was Lews Therin's ability - in which case you could say Demandred could have been equally as good. But we also have Galad and Gawyn - who become 2 of the top 5 blademasters in the Westlands within 2 years. 

 

Considering all of the unrealistic development of skill, Demandred is one of the more plausible scenarios comparatively. 

 

Galad and Gawyn did have sword pratice with Gareth (was stated in the books)....probably started when they were teenagers.

 

For Rand I would indeed say it was LTT's abilities. LTT was very likely the #1 blademaster in AoL. No, Demandred was likely #2 (with his 2+years training added on, probably as good as LTT was when he faced Lan).

 

It would have been realistic for Demandred to beat Gawyn (minus rings) and possibly beating Galad with OP/sword combo. Gawyn with 3 rings would be too much for anyone...a mini-Flash, plot shields at work of course.

 

Lan is leaps and bounds better than Rand and Galad...and according to Avienhda she has never met a more danagerous man.  Lan's PoV does state: "Perhaps if they had come to the fight evenly, it would be different".  While Lan was fatingued and injured somewhat, there should still be no way that Demandred should be in Lan's league.

 

AoL, swords were merely a past time sport, until the War of Power hit...Demandred was an OP user, 99.99% time he would have used the OP in battle....this is not unskilled Rand, this is someone close to the skill of Rand Sedai.

 

 

I am being too much of a whiner.

 

I look forward to anything else Brandon et al produces in terms of WoT (video game, movies...maybe further books) or Brandon's other works.

[Rhienne]

Gawyn with 3 rings would be too much for anyone...a mini-Flash, plot shields at work of course.

 

BS kind of explains that the blood rings don't enhance your actual skill with the sword, just your speed of movement/agility, and that they made Gawyn overconfident.  Plus, Demandred semi-recognises the effect of the blood rings when he sees Gawyn, so is perhaps better prepared to deal with it.  Also, remember that Gawyn killed 3(?) highly trained Seanchan assassins.  The blood rings can't be that awesome if a lone swordsman (albeit a very good one) can take on three of them at once.

[mbuehner]

The problem here is I don't see anyone of these guys as leaps and bounds better than the others. Its a bell curve of talent, the very best (Lan) is still only somewhat better than the second best, and so on (consider Lan had a pretty intense duel with Toram Riatin, a blademaster, but surely nowhere up this list). Circumstances (and physical condition) could very quickly erase the gaps in skill between individuals of this level.

[Entreri]

Toram Riatin was able to hold his own against a Rand...although Rand was not taking it seriously. Lan finished him in less than 30 seconds with a small cut.

 

Fatigue, illness/injuries definitely play a huge part in any contest. Typically in the real world, the top 3-5 in any discpline are very very close to each other...however there are exceptions, and I would say Lan is definitely one of those...as is the likes of Anderson Silva, George St.Pierre, Floyd Mayweather...

 

Anderson Silva, Mr. Anderson, Matrixing fighters in MMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NQ7wraiH92o

[clu7ch]

A very important thing to keep in mind about the rings. They were ter'angreal that allowed non-channelers to use a weave called Nightshade or something, don't have my book in front of me, but Demandred mocked him for it, saying that Lews Therin sent him to die, which means two things: He could see the weaves, or could tell it was being used, and that he didn't know the seanchan had such ter'angreal, because he assumed only Lews Therin would know such a weave. 

 

Either way, Demandred's ability to predict his movements - however he did it - makes perfect sense as to why he overpowered his opponent. The rings created a false sense of superiority, and the fact that Gawyn is just an annoying honor bound twit. IMO, had it coming.

[Elysium]

Honestly, i think the Lan killing Demandred plot point, while a nice tie in to the the beginning of the book, was silly (Gawyn and Galad fighting him too). I get it...Demandred was just too powerful and had to be neutralized periodically to prevent him from decimating the armies of the light, but the swordfights were too much of a stretch. Getting back to the point, it would have been better if Logain's attempt to attack Demandred would have taken place while Mat's army was attacking the Sharans/Trollocs on the heights and Mat and a small band break through to where Demandred is and ambush him and the Sharans with him just as Logain lost (or was losing). That would give the element of surprise, Mat's foxhead, and the Logain wildcard and make Demandred's death so much more believable...

 

Since I am ranting though, did anyone else think it was weird that Demandred thought Lan was LTT? I mean, Lan had two functioning hands...Demandred knew that Callandor was flawed and couldnt be used, but he didnt know that LTT was a gimp? NO ONE told him?

[Finally]

Spot on in the OP and some other good points added.

 

Lan should have been turned into a pin cushion after besting Demandred or shoved into a trolloc broth at the very least. As highlighted earlier there's no good reason why Demandred is such a skilled swordsman. It's also ridiculous to expect Demandred to stop directing the battle and reigning down death below him on FOUR separate occasions, particularly to the swordsmen who would have been insignificant in his eyes. I actually burst out laughing when it turned out Lan was alive and well, holding the head. It was needless, the character had run his course (not to mention actively seeking out his death for the previous 1000+ pages) I thought at first he had perhaps been tied to, and then summoned by the Horn but no. It was just plain awful. Why make it this way, so he could hug Nynaeve at the end? Blah

[clu7ch]

I do believe it's mentioned somewhere that he was exhausted periodically from using the sa'angreal. Also, Demandred has been free for at least as long as Rand has, and therefore  pretending he has no knowledge of fighting prior to being freed from the bore (which is hogswash, he was already second only to LTT) So in that time, Rand became almost as good a swordsman as Lan, in such a short time, it's entirely possible that Demandred got caught up on his swordsmanship enough to be better than Galad and Gawyn, and Lan even.