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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Colin Sullivan

Error with Lan?

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Rand is ta'veren.

That would explain his getting lucky in book 2 but not his skill as is commented on many times before he loses his hand

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Funny whenever people complain about Egwene learning her skills too fast they cite it being ok for Rand since he is ta'veren and had memory seepage. I don't really have much of an opinion on this topic but it has been generally accepted in the fandom ta'veren played a role in how fast he learned as the pattern needed him to be skilled.

 

Also not sure what you are referring to when you say "as is commented on many times"?

Edited by Suttree

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

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Spot on in the OP and some other good points added.

 

Lan should have been turned into a pin cushion after besting Demandred or shoved into a trolloc broth at the very least. As highlighted earlier there's no good reason why Demandred is such a skilled swordsman. It's also ridiculous to expect Demandred to stop directing the battle and reigning down death below him on FOUR separate occasions, particularly to the swordsmen who would have been insignificant in his eyes. I actually burst out laughing when it turned out Lan was alive and well, holding the head. It was needless, the character had run his course (not to mention actively seeking out his death for the previous 1000+ pages) I thought at first he had perhaps been tied to, and then summoned by the Horn but no. It was just plain awful. Why make it this way, so he could hug Nynaeve at the end? Blah

 

Lan has Min Vision Armor - her viewing of him included a baby in a cradle with a sword and 7 Towers.  Since this has to refer to the future, logically it has to be his son.  Nyn and Lan spent  a lot of time apart, so she can't have been pregnant prior to aMoL (she'd know, and so would we).  I guess they may have had time sometime during the FoM, but...

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It's all there, and I just don't see how people CANT allow demandred to be a skilled swordsman - he has every right to be, and every opportunity was given to him to learn and improve. 

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

I sincerely hope that is sarcasm

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Well, there was a section in ToM describing how impossibly quickly Perrin's civilians were learning the soldiering trade. I'd chalk it up to the Wheel.

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

 

The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
I sincerely hope that is sarcasm

You mean you can't do that? Sometimes I forget other people have limitations.

 

 

 

I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.

The fact that the Wise Ones train their channelers by showing them the weave once and expecting them to learn shows that they don't need to see it more than once, it's just easier with repetition. For Nynaeve, it's clear enough from seeing it once.

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
I sincerely hope that is sarcasm

You mean you can't do that? Sometimes I forget other people have limitations.

 

 

 

I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.

The fact that the Wise Ones train their channelers by showing them the weave once and expecting them to learn shows that they don't need to see it more than once, it's just easier with repetition. For Nynaeve, it's clear enough from seeing it once.

 

 

Nynaeves ability to see something once and repeat it is often remarked as being unusual.  The Wise Ones may expect it, but that doesn't mean it happens. 

 

tFoH

 

As they reached the last tent and turned southward, Aviendha said, "Do you know why I study so hard?" Neither the cold nor running had made an impression on her voice.

   Egwene was shivering so hard she could barely speak. "No. Why?"

   "Because Bair and the others always point to you, and tell me how easily you learn, how you never have to have something explained twice. They say I ought to be more like you." She gave Egwene a sidelong glance, and Egwene found herself sharing a giggle as they ran. "That is part of the reason. The things I am learning to do..." Aviendha shook her head, wonderment plain even by moonlight. "And the Power itself. I have never felt like that. So alive. I can smell the faintest scent, feel the slightest stir in the air."

 

This certainly implies that Aviendha (who proves herself to be a strong and capable channeler) at the least does not remember everything first time round. 

 

 

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."

 

Eg trains herself to remember things better, but it's certainly not instinctive with her.

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i still say that lan shouldnt have been the one to kill demandred... it should have been mat... he was the one who had the foreshadowing of beating the two swordmasters(galad/gawyn) in tarvalon. and after beating the two, it only followed that the one who beat both of them, would beat the one who beat them... the farmer, with a stick...

 

not to mention the funny twist of, how he doesnt have both eyes so has no depth perception(yay for a lucky beheading!), and "give up 1/2 the light of the world, to save the world" would take on a whole different meaning...

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Part of what I meant was that seeing something once = expert. Nothing like "she was able to form the weaves for a fireball, but it wasn't has hot/strong as blahblah's. she would need to practice it a little more"

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
I sincerely hope that is sarcasm

You mean you can't do that? Sometimes I forget other people have limitations.

 

 

 

I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.

The fact that the Wise Ones train their channelers by showing them the weave once and expecting them to learn shows that they don't need to see it more than once, it's just easier with repetition. For Nynaeve, it's clear enough from seeing it once.

 

Nynaeves ability to see something once and repeat it is often remarked as being unusual.  The Wise Ones may expect it, but that doesn't mean it happens. 

 

tFoH

 

As they reached the last tent and turned southward, Aviendha said, "Do you know why I study so hard?" Neither the cold nor running had made an impression on her voice.

   Egwene was shivering so hard she could barely speak. "No. Why?"

   "Because Bair and the others always point to you, and tell me how easily you learn, how you never have to have something explained twice. They say I ought to be more like you." She gave Egwene a sidelong glance, and Egwene found herself sharing a giggle as they ran. "That is part of the reason. The things I am learning to do..." Aviendha shook her head, wonderment plain even by moonlight. "And the Power itself. I have never felt like that. So alive. I can smell the faintest scent, feel the slightest stir in the air."

 

This certainly implies that Aviendha (who proves herself to be a strong and capable channeler) at the least does not remember everything first time round. 

 

 

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."

 

Eg trains herself to remember things better, but it's certainly not instinctive with her.

You've not shown that the Wise Ones have unrealistic expectations, only that they set a high standard. Learning after seeing something once is something that can be achieved, but is achieved more easily by some than others.

 

Part of what I meant was that seeing something once = expert. Nothing like "she was able to form the weaves for a fireball, but it wasn't has hot/strong as blahblah's. she would need to practice it a little more"

You mean you can't do that?

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
I sincerely hope that is sarcasm

You mean you can't do that? Sometimes I forget other people have limitations.

 

 

 

I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.

The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.

The fact that the Wise Ones train their channelers by showing them the weave once and expecting them to learn shows that they don't need to see it more than once, it's just easier with repetition. For Nynaeve, it's clear enough from seeing it once.

 

Nynaeves ability to see something once and repeat it is often remarked as being unusual.  The Wise Ones may expect it, but that doesn't mean it happens. 

 

tFoH

 

As they reached the last tent and turned southward, Aviendha said, "Do you know why I study so hard?" Neither the cold nor running had made an impression on her voice.

   Egwene was shivering so hard she could barely speak. "No. Why?"

   "Because Bair and the others always point to you, and tell me how easily you learn, how you never have to have something explained twice. They say I ought to be more like you." She gave Egwene a sidelong glance, and Egwene found herself sharing a giggle as they ran. "That is part of the reason. The things I am learning to do..." Aviendha shook her head, wonderment plain even by moonlight. "And the Power itself. I have never felt like that. So alive. I can smell the faintest scent, feel the slightest stir in the air."

 

This certainly implies that Aviendha (who proves herself to be a strong and capable channeler) at the least does not remember everything first time round. 

 

 

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."

 

Eg trains herself to remember things better, but it's certainly not instinctive with her.

You've not shown that the Wise Ones have unrealistic expectations, only that they set a high standard. Learning after seeing something once is something that can be achieved, but is achieved more easily by some than others.

 

I don't think we're disagreeing here, since I didn't actually say that the Wise Ones expectations were unrealistic, just that they aren't always met.  It's possible for some people to naturally remember everything once (e.g. Nyn), some train themselves to remember everything having seen it once (e.g. Eg, Wise Ones), and some people who we never see making the effort (most of everyone else) which (to be fair) isn't to say they couldn't, but that they haven't, which is inconclusive either way.

 

 

And before you ask, no I can't remember everything first time - I have a pretty good head for scientific concepts, but I'm rubbish at remembering facts.

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I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
I sincerely hope that is sarcasm
You mean you can't do that? Sometimes I forget other people have limitations.

 

 

 

 

I thought I remembered him being mentioned as an incredible swordsman from books 7ish->loss of hand. We see him facing up to 4/5 opponents at the same time.

 

My problem with eggy learning quickly was my problem with all channelers learning quickly: they saw it once and committed it to memory. The end. Next lesson. Rinse and repeat.

How else would one learn something? Once should surely be enough.
The fact that even the other supergirls comment on Nynaeve's ability to see a weave once and be able to replicate it indicates that most channelers need to see a weave more than once to learn it.
The fact that the Wise Ones train their channelers by showing them the weave once and expecting them to learn shows that they don't need to see it more than once, it's just easier with repetition. For Nynaeve, it's clear enough from seeing it once.

Nynaeves ability to see something once and repeat it is often remarked as being unusual. The Wise Ones may expect it, but that doesn't mean it happens.

 

tFoH

As they reached the last tent and turned southward, Aviendha said, "Do you know why I study so hard?" Neither the cold nor running had made an impression on her voice.

Egwene was shivering so hard she could barely speak. "No. Why?"

"Because Bair and the others always point to you, and tell me how easily you learn, how you never have to have something explained twice. They say I ought to be more like you." She gave Egwene a sidelong glance, and Egwene found herself sharing a giggle as they ran. "That is part of the reason. The things I am learning to do..." Aviendha shook her head, wonderment plain even by moonlight. "And the Power itself. I have never felt like that. So alive. I can smell the faintest scent, feel the slightest stir in the air."

This certainly implies that Aviendha (who proves herself to be a strong and capable channeler) at the least does not remember everything first time round.

 

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."

Eg trains herself to remember things better, but it's certainly not instinctive with her.

You've not shown that the Wise Ones have unrealistic expectations, only that they set a high standard. Learning after seeing something once is something that can be achieved, but is achieved more easily by some than others.

Part of what I meant was that seeing something once = expert. Nothing like "she was able to form the weaves for a fireball, but it wasn't has hot/strong as blahblah's. she would need to practice it a little more"

You mean you can't do that?
Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

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Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

Doesn't really relate to what's being talked about. That's physical actions, not the ability to remember.

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Part of what I meant was that seeing something once = expert. Nothing like "she was able to form the weaves for a fireball, but it wasn't has hot/strong as blahblah's. she would need to practice it a little more"

 

But that is exactly how it works. Being able to form a weave does not equal being an expert at it. Nynaeve is a perfect example of that.

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Part of what I meant was that seeing something once = expert. Nothing like "she was able to form the weaves for a fireball, but it wasn't has hot/strong as blahblah's. she would need to practice it a little more"

But that is exactly how it works. Being able to form a weave does not equal being an expert at it. Nynaeve is a perfect example of that.
As is eggy, and elayne, and avi when the plot calls for it, and the asha'man at the manor, logain, and many others.

 

The only times we don't see it is when they are making cuendillar and healing but even that they only attribute to not having a talent for that. Virtually every channeler has a photographic memory when it comes to weaves and I think it really cheapened the story and the magic system. I pretend people ask for things to be repeated from time to time.

 

Edit: even sorilea remembered the weave for traveling enough to show it to cads when she didn't even have the strength to open a gateway. She should have had to do it piece by piece to make it more realistic

Edited by shortkut

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Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

Doesn't really relate to what's being talked about. That's physical actions, not the ability to remember.

Channelers have different strengths and levels of dexterity. It rarely seems to impede them with things like a fireball. Just do a backwards shot from the foul line, that is the globetrotter equivalent of a single globe of light being attached to a wall like eggy and elayne did.

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Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

Doesn't really relate to what's being talked about. That's physical actions, not the ability to remember.

Channelers have different strengths and levels of dexterity. It rarely seems to impede them with things like a fireball. Just do a backwards shot from the foul line, that is the globetrotter equivalent of a single globe of light being attached to a wall like eggy and elayne did.

Neither of these things is regarded as hugely complex, so comparisons with basketball trick shots are hardly valid. And both Egwene and Elayne are in the upper tiers of ability to learn quickly and dexterity anyway, further invalidating the argument.

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Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

Doesn't really relate to what's being talked about. That's physical actions, not the ability to remember.
Channelers have different strengths and levels of dexterity. It rarely seems to impede them with things like a fireball. Just do a backwards shot from the foul line, that is the globetrotter equivalent of a single globe of light being attached to a wall like eggy and elayne did.
Neither of these things is regarded as hugely complex, so comparisons with basketball trick shots are hardly valid. And both Egwene and Elayne are in the upper tiers of ability to learn quickly and dexterity anyway, further invalidating the argument.
We see people learn traveling with one viewing, is that not complex? Your reasoning for it not being extremely convenient is that the plot calls for it so it is ok. Dribble the ball between your legs. That is something that many preteens can do.

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Watch footage of the Harlem Globetrotters and then link to a video of yourself performing some of those trick shots. You can do trick shot billiards if you would prefer, but there is a higher probability that you could already do that. I'll wait while you practice a lot and then lie and say it was done on the first attempt after one viewing

Doesn't really relate to what's being talked about. That's physical actions, not the ability to remember.
Channelers have different strengths and levels of dexterity. It rarely seems to impede them with things like a fireball. Just do a backwards shot from the foul line, that is the globetrotter equivalent of a single globe of light being attached to a wall like eggy and elayne did.
Neither of these things is regarded as hugely complex, so comparisons with basketball trick shots are hardly valid. And both Egwene and Elayne are in the upper tiers of ability to learn quickly and dexterity anyway, further invalidating the argument.
We see people learn traveling with one viewing, is that not complex? Your reasoning for it not being extremely convenient is that the plot calls for it so it is ok. Dribble the ball between your legs. That is something that many preteens can do.

Once again there is a difference between learning weaves and mastering them. Perhaps you could discuss which instances you are referring to with traveling so we can look at the circumstances?

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