Padan Fain (Full Spoilers)

[Agitel]

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can

 

The first is shown to be true. The second doesn't necessarily follow, and it contradicts the books.

[talligan]

Fain's death, along with the other forsaken, was what he deserved. Short, brutal and without note or fanfare. All villains aim for fame, to go down in history wrecking havoc and destruction so the worst possible outcome for them  would be to be put down like a rabid animal and forgotten. 

 

Demandred: Wanted to go down dueling the Dragon. Got killed by a mere powerless human.

Moridin: Wanted to end the World and existence. Was a conduit for its salvation.

Moghedien: Captured and forgotten

Lanfear: Died alone and forgotten. Neck snapped almost as an afterthought. 

Padan fain: Gloried in the great evil he had become. Poked with a knife and a quip.

etc... 

[Elan Tedronai]

 

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can

 

The first is shown to be true. The second doesn't necessarily follow, and it contradicts the books.

 

contradicts how? the dark one just touched the world in aol and caused so damage. what do u think he will be able to do fully free? you cannot kill him. the amount of balefire needed to fry him will finish the entire world.

[Knivy]

You are saying you cannot kill the GLoD because he is the Creator's "counterpart," which is assuming you cannot kill the Creator, or that "counterpart" means equal.There is nowhere that says either the Creator or GLoD are unkillable.

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can

 

The first is shown to be true. The second doesn't necessarily follow, and it contradicts the books.

 

contradicts how? the dark one just touched the world in aol and caused so damage. what do u think he will be able to do fully free? you cannot kill him. the amount of balefire needed to fry him will finish the entire world.

Did you not... read the book? Specifically the multiple scenes of Rand contemplating destroying the DO, particularly holding his essence and considering destroying it?  You don't have to imagine some amount of balefire (since when did the quantity of balefire affect its ability to destroy?) or any other weapon that might destroy the DO... THE MEANS IS DIRECTLY TOLD TO US IN THE BOOK.

 

Moreover- even philosophically you have a problem- if the DO can potentially break free and undo the wheel, philosophically the DO should be destroyable as well, resulting something along the lines of Rand's vision. Assuming there really is yin and yang.  If there is light and dark how can only dark have a 'winning' hand? Would the destruction of the DO destroy the circular nature of time? Perhaps... or perhaps the weave would indeed create some replacement for the DO, over time or very quickly. Who knows? But the entity, the personality, we know as Shaitan is demonstrably vulnerable to Rand.  Deny it all you want, quote vaguely supportive suggestions by Jordan all you want, but we have direct scenes from the book proving you entirely, hopelessly, wrong.

 

Unless there is no possibility of destroying the DO, nor of the DO actually breaking free, in which case the whole LB (and free choice) is a farce. 

[b9anders]

I am most drawn to the idea of Fain being a failsafe. Once it was apparent this failsafe was no longer required, the pattern spat him out with the same ignominy it did the other false dragons once Rand came forward.

[shortkut]

The books seem to indicate that you can kill the dark one, however there will be serious consequences whereas killing an evil being like Fain will have no serious consequences

[Elan Tedronai]

Robert jordan was once asked how much balefire would it take to kill the DO.

 

the answer it would result in the end of the world.

 

What sanderson the poor man's terry brooks writes in AMOL is irrelevant.

 

The dark one is unkillable.

 

Rand al thor could not defeat taim with a circle of 13 and yet he can end the life of a God?

 

what nonsense.

[shortkut]

Death is different than death with balefire. One kills him while the other erases what he did

[mbuehner]

Robert jordan was once asked how much balefire would it take to kill the DO.

 

the answer it would result in the end of the world.

"

What sanderson the poor man's terry brooks writes in AMOL is irrelevant.

 

The dark one is unkillable.

 

Rand al thor could not defeat taim with a circle of 13 and yet he can end the life of a God?

 

what nonsense.

Ok. We'll take your interpretation over whats in the book.

[Dalton Moser]

Just my thoughts but when Rand was holding the dark ones essence he was holding him with both sides of the one power and the true power, I figure that its the true power that made killing him a possibility, the dark one couldn't protect himself from his own essence thus it being used to kill the DO seems feasable to me.

[athrian]

 

You are both clearly wrong.

 

This is what robert jordan says about shaitan

 

he Dark One has promised his

followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return.

In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My

question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy

to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little

people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in

his own image?

                                            

                                            Robert Jordan                                            

                                            

That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One?

You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to

believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their

parts—just check out the nightly news for confirmation—and at the root,

that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends.

Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because

they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all,

he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to

give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a

world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind

is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

 

 

                                            Martin Reznick                                            

                                            

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

                                            

                                            Robert Jordan                                            

                                            

I envision the Dark One

as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the

Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of

balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I

know, but I think it works.

 

 

                                            Brandon from Mission Viejo                                            

                                            

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One

was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of

creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to

light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the

prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening

of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without

major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

                                            

                                            Robert Jordan                                            

                                            

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One

is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that

prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the

opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this

line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the

future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course,

the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can

Um, nothing in what you posted of Jordan's quotes says the DO cannot be killed. It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off. It's very strongly hinted that one of Rand's questions to the Finns was how can he kill the DO, and he certainly didn't get an answer of "it's impossible". The epilogue in AMOL, which RJ wrote, has Rand acknowledging a choice that it has to be about free will and that he asked the Finns the wrong question. And whether you like it or not, what's in AMOL is canon, even if we believe that BS came up with "killing the DO" all on his own (which seems highly unlikely).

[Suttree]

It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off.

While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity.

[athrian]

 

It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off.

While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity.

 

Sorry but I disagree. The DO's taint on saidin was annihilated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Flinn saved Rand by sealing away his wound so that the the evils of Fain's dagger and Ishmael's power would fight each other. Given Lanfear's calculating nature, it seems unlikely she would have even brought up challenging the Creator (which nobody else seemingly even thought of or would have any idea how to do) if she didn't have some idea of the feasibility. It's hinted that Rand got the idea for killing the DO from something in his conversation with the Finns, meaning he didn't get a flat out "this is impossible" answer from them.

 

I'll certainly agree that foreshadowing is vague enough that it's open to interpretation and I should take back the "strongly" portion of my comment, but while of course it's far from definitive, it's more than just an offhand comment by one of the Forsaken that this is possible.

 

Edit: I'll also add that the 'challenge the Creator' line was mentioned again in a later book. After Rand was made aware of Callandor's flaws, he remembers Lanfear's statement about the power of the CK being such that he could challenge the Creator, and it scares him. While of course again this isn't definitive, given the way RJ likes to hint at important things by either providing multiple clues or repeating things from past books, one can draw a conclusion based off all this that it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

[Suttree]

 

 

It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off.

While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity.

 

 

Sorry but I disagree. The DO's taint on saidin was annihilated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Flinn saved Rand by sealing away his wound so that the the evils of Fain's dagger and Ishmael's power would fight each other. Given Lanfear's calculating nature, it seems unlikely she would have even brought up challenging the Creator (which nobody else seemingly even thought of or would have any idea how to do) if she didn't have some idea of the feasibility. It's hinted that Rand got the idea for killing the DO from something in his conversation with the Finns, meaning he didn't get a flat out "this is impossible" answer from them.

 

I'll certainly agree that foreshadowing is vague enough that it's open to interpretation and I should take back the "strongly" portion of my comment, but while of course it's far from definitive, it's more than just an offhand comment by one of the Forsaken that this is possible.

Did you see the part where I said I agree Rand could have killed the DO? As for the idea coming from the Finns on how to kill him that is unlikely. There is no mention of that in his discussions with Fel and he only latches on to the idea when he becomes Dark Rand.

 

Again though there is zero proof Lanfear has any idea what she is talking about in regards to the Creator though. It is her typical delusions of grandeur and lust for power.

 

As for the cleansing the taint, yes RJ was clear on the mechanics of how that worked:

 

RJ

 

You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

Regardless negating the backlash and a thin layer of "scum" over the OP is not analagous to killing the DO. The Creator is even farther removed. I'm not interested in your interpretation of whether Lanfear being able to challenge the creator. I'm looking for you to provide these "hints" that the Creator can be destroyed.

[athrian]

 

 

 

It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off.

While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity.

 

 

Sorry but I disagree. The DO's taint on saidin was annihilated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Flinn saved Rand by sealing away his wound so that the the evils of Fain's dagger and Ishmael's power would fight each other. Given Lanfear's calculating nature, it seems unlikely she would have even brought up challenging the Creator (which nobody else seemingly even thought of or would have any idea how to do) if she didn't have some idea of the feasibility. It's hinted that Rand got the idea for killing the DO from something in his conversation with the Finns, meaning he didn't get a flat out "this is impossible" answer from them.

 

I'll certainly agree that foreshadowing is vague enough that it's open to interpretation and I should take back the "strongly" portion of my comment, but while of course it's far from definitive, it's more than just an offhand comment by one of the Forsaken that this is possible.

Did you see the part where I said I agree the DO can be killed? Again though there is zero proof Lanfear has any idea what she is talking about. It is her typical delusions of grandeur and lust for power.

 

As for the cleansing the taint, yes RJ was clear on the mechanics of how that worked:

 

RJ

>> 

You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

Regardless negating the backlash and a thin layer of "scum" over the OP is not analagous to killing the DO. The Creator is even farther removed. I'm not interested in your interpretation of whether Lanfear being able to challenge the creator. I'm looking for you to provide these "hints" that the Creator can be destroyed.

 

 

 

 

1) The fact that it originated with Lanfear

2) The fact that her line was repeated in a later book. Again, going by RJ's style that when things get repeated, there's usually some importance to it.

3) The DO was portrayed as the antithesis to the Creator, an opposite but equal. If one assumes from other hints that the DO can be killed, then going by the duality theme in the WoT, the Creator would be killable too.

 

And yes actually, the whole deal with the taint actually being destroyed/negated by another type of evil, along with Rand's wound, tells us that evil can be destroyed. And, I found the context of the 'balefire the DO' comment that was brought up earlier:

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?

ROBERT JORDAN

The quantity necessary would destroy the world.

 

Note he doesn't say "you can't kill the DO". In fact, his answer seems to indicate exactly the opposite. It would take so much balefire you'd destroy everything, but it would affect the DO.

[Suttree]

None of those things are proof, nor can they even be called hints. The reasoning behind the first two is fallacious.

 

As for the DO/Creator I am very aware of that "dark balance" quote and yet the Creator was sealed away at the moment of Creation. The Creator also takes no part and is completely removed unlike the DO. Again if you wish to continue the conversation pull quotes from the book.

 

Edit: No idea why you keep talking about the DO as I've agreed Rand may have been able to kill him. We do know it is highly unlikely the idea came from the Finns however.

[athrian]

They certainly can be called hints. Just because you don't see them that way doesn't make it so. Nor does it mean that I am automatically right, which is why I backed off my original statement some and said it's open to interpretation.

[athrian]

The only reason I keep bringing up the DO is because of the whole duality theme in WoT. If the Creator and DO are supposed to be equal but opposites, and one is killable, then the other one should logically be killable as well.

[Nae'blis]

The very fact that the Creator 'does not interfere' should be enough to make him impossible to kill. Consider: it was the Dark One's own meddling that allowed him to be sucked into the Pattern. Rand notes that it was only inside the Pattern- inside of time- that he could be killed. 

 

Rand wouldn't have been able to draw Shai'tan in if he had never allowed access to the True Power. So, by virtue of his non-interfering quality he shouldn't be kill-able, even if he is in all other respects 'equal' to Shai'tan.

 

Edited for too many commas.

[athrian]

The Shadow Rising, Chp 9, p129:

 

Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even . . . the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!"

 

A Crown of Swords, Chp 33, p519

 

There, in a niche hollowed out with the Power, stood two small statues of white sotne about a foot tall, a woman and a man, each in flowing robes and holding a clear crystal sphere overhead in one hand. The night he set the army in motion toward Illian he had gone to Rhuidean alone to fetch these ter'angreal: if he needed them, he might not have much time. THat was what he had told himself. His hand would stretch toward the bearded man, the only one of the pair a man could use, stretch out and stop, shaking. One finger touching, and more of the One Power than he could imagine would be his. WIth that, no one could defeat him, no one stand against him. With that, Lanfear had said once, he could challenge the Creator.

 

 

The Path of Daggers, Chp 27, p540

 

Rand barely heard her. He had hoped to use Callandor again, hoped it would be strong enough. Now only one chance remained, and it terrified him. He seemed to hear another woman's voice, a dead woman's voice. You could challenge the Creator.

 

Winter's Heart, With the CHoedan Kal, p641

 

She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord--faced the Creator!-- with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!

 

 

Across 4 different books, we get references to challenging the Creator. And even if we assume the first time that it was Lanfear trying to tempt Rand or lie, we see in her POV she actually believes it. And she doesn't say "try to" or anything like that, she says it definitively, as though she knows how she can. She could very well be wrong about what it would take to defeat or kill the Creator, but it certainly reads like she knows how to at least try.

 

 

Additionally, Rand has at least had a thought about killing the DO earlier than when he became Dark Rand and his conversations with Fel:

 

The Shadow Rising, p128

 

Fool! he thought. Trapped here, and I spout defiance like some idiot in a story who never suspects he might make his captor angry enough to do something about it. But he could not force himself to take the words back. Stubbornly, he plowed ahead and made it worse. "I'll destroy you, if I can. You, and the Dark One, and every last Forsaken!".

 

 

Then again, my thought process is "if the DO can be killed, and we have seen hints that he can before AMOL, then it would stand to reason that the Creator can be killed. And since it was mentioned across 4 separate books, it seems to be a line of importance, and was not phrased in a way that makes it seem like a lying boast."

[athrian]

Also, as far as the 'Creator takes no part', if one believes the voice at the end of TEoTW is the Creator, then we know that while he/she won't actively interfere, the fact that he/she communicated with Rand means the Creator at least is watching the world and can be "reached".

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, it seems that you guys have worked things out yourselves. Apologies, I just got in. 

 

There is no use in going back an modding your posts, as they have already been seen, responded to and things concluded - so I will remove the ones for being off topic. 

 

I suggest next time, perhaps take extra care in the way the posts are presented, as it seems there have been a few misunderstandings as to tone and things got heated. If you are uncomfortable or unsure about something another poster has written - ask them. The problem with the internet and typed messages is that they cannot convey tone - and things can be interpreted in a totally different way to what the poster intended. 

 

Even if it is something like "Forgive me if I am wrong, but I feel you are being condescending/rude/smart-ass, could you clarify?" 

 

Then, you have done everything perfectly right. If the poster is actually being an ass, then you should - ideally - not respond and report it to a moderator. Of course, that's easy to say - I understand things can get heated, but it is something to think of that may help in the future, even if it isn't a textbook response. 

 

Anyway, enough of that, back on topic. 

[Suttree]

Little over zealous with the balefire there Barid ;) My post outlining my thoughts point by point is gone.

[Agitel]

It's strongly implied by Rand's POV that his third question was "Can the Dark One be killed?" His reflections show that he should have asked "Should the Dark One be killed?" It's probably the fact that he asked a question pertaining to the Shadow that he emerged from the archway in Tear wielding a sword.

 

If implications aren't enough, Brandon confirmed that this was his question here:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/121/Tweets-January-13-23-2013

 

 

kaspe_r11 Wed Jan 23
@BrandSanderson #torchat Did Rand's third question to the Aelfin involve whether/how the DO could be killed?

 

BrandSanderson

 Wed Jan 23

@kaspe_r11 I think Maria and Harriet are planning to put these in the encyclopedia, but you are right on the third question. #torchat