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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

athrian

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  1. Actually, it appears as though Rand had been thinking about it as early going through the doorway in Tear to see the Aelfinn. His third question is strongly hinted as having asked how to kill the Dark One, but he didn't understand the answer until later (like his other answers). We'll know for sure I guess when the Encyclopedia comes out. From the Epilogue of AMoL: "I see the answer now," he whispered. "I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren't a man at all. You're a puppet . . ." Also there was apparently a twitter chat where BS said something about this. I don't have the transcript, but from: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/brandon-sandersons-wheel-of-time-answers-from-torchat "Rand’s third question to the Aelfinn involved Rand asking how to kill the Dark One. More detail on these will most likely be put in the Encyclopedia."
  2. Also, as far as the 'Creator takes no part', if one believes the voice at the end of TEoTW is the Creator, then we know that while he/she won't actively interfere, the fact that he/she communicated with Rand means the Creator at least is watching the world and can be "reached".
  3. The Shadow Rising, Chp 9, p129: Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even . . . the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!" A Crown of Swords, Chp 33, p519 There, in a niche hollowed out with the Power, stood two small statues of white sotne about a foot tall, a woman and a man, each in flowing robes and holding a clear crystal sphere overhead in one hand. The night he set the army in motion toward Illian he had gone to Rhuidean alone to fetch these ter'angreal: if he needed them, he might not have much time. THat was what he had told himself. His hand would stretch toward the bearded man, the only one of the pair a man could use, stretch out and stop, shaking. One finger touching, and more of the One Power than he could imagine would be his. WIth that, no one could defeat him, no one stand against him. With that, Lanfear had said once, he could challenge the Creator. The Path of Daggers, Chp 27, p540 Rand barely heard her. He had hoped to use Callandor again, hoped it would be strong enough. Now only one chance remained, and it terrified him. He seemed to hear another woman's voice, a dead woman's voice. You could challenge the Creator. Winter's Heart, With the CHoedan Kal, p641 She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord--faced the Creator!-- with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her! Across 4 different books, we get references to challenging the Creator. And even if we assume the first time that it was Lanfear trying to tempt Rand or lie, we see in her POV she actually believes it. And she doesn't say "try to" or anything like that, she says it definitively, as though she knows how she can. She could very well be wrong about what it would take to defeat or kill the Creator, but it certainly reads like she knows how to at least try. Additionally, Rand has at least had a thought about killing the DO earlier than when he became Dark Rand and his conversations with Fel: The Shadow Rising, p128 Fool! he thought. Trapped here, and I spout defiance like some idiot in a story who never suspects he might make his captor angry enough to do something about it. But he could not force himself to take the words back. Stubbornly, he plowed ahead and made it worse. "I'll destroy you, if I can. You, and the Dark One, and every last Forsaken!". Then again, my thought process is "if the DO can be killed, and we have seen hints that he can before AMOL, then it would stand to reason that the Creator can be killed. And since it was mentioned across 4 separate books, it seems to be a line of importance, and was not phrased in a way that makes it seem like a lying boast."
  4. The only reason I keep bringing up the DO is because of the whole duality theme in WoT. If the Creator and DO are supposed to be equal but opposites, and one is killable, then the other one should logically be killable as well.
  5. They certainly can be called hints. Just because you don't see them that way doesn't make it so. Nor does it mean that I am automatically right, which is why I backed off my original statement some and said it's open to interpretation.
  6. While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity. Sorry but I disagree. The DO's taint on saidin was annihilated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Flinn saved Rand by sealing away his wound so that the the evils of Fain's dagger and Ishmael's power would fight each other. Given Lanfear's calculating nature, it seems unlikely she would have even brought up challenging the Creator (which nobody else seemingly even thought of or would have any idea how to do) if she didn't have some idea of the feasibility. It's hinted that Rand got the idea for killing the DO from something in his conversation with the Finns, meaning he didn't get a flat out "this is impossible" answer from them. I'll certainly agree that foreshadowing is vague enough that it's open to interpretation and I should take back the "strongly" portion of my comment, but while of course it's far from definitive, it's more than just an offhand comment by one of the Forsaken that this is possible. Did you see the part where I said I agree the DO can be killed? Again though there is zero proof Lanfear has any idea what she is talking about. It is her typical delusions of grandeur and lust for power. As for the cleansing the taint, yes RJ was clear on the mechanics of how that worked: RJ Regardless negating the backlash and a thin layer of "scum" over the OP is not analagous to killing the DO. The Creator is even farther removed. I'm not interested in your interpretation of whether Lanfear being able to challenge the creator. I'm looking for you to provide these "hints" that the Creator can be destroyed. 1) The fact that it originated with Lanfear 2) The fact that her line was repeated in a later book. Again, going by RJ's style that when things get repeated, there's usually some importance to it. 3) The DO was portrayed as the antithesis to the Creator, an opposite but equal. If one assumes from other hints that the DO can be killed, then going by the duality theme in the WoT, the Creator would be killable too. And yes actually, the whole deal with the taint actually being destroyed/negated by another type of evil, along with Rand's wound, tells us that evil can be destroyed. And, I found the context of the 'balefire the DO' comment that was brought up earlier: INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996 ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased) QUESTIONWhy doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One? ROBERT JORDANThe quantity necessary would destroy the world. Note he doesn't say "you can't kill the DO". In fact, his answer seems to indicate exactly the opposite. It would take so much balefire you'd destroy everything, but it would affect the DO.
  7. While I agree that Rand could have killed the DO your "hinted at strongly" comment is absolutely false. Lanfear's belief that they could "challenge" the creator with the CK has nothing to back it up it's validity. Sorry but I disagree. The DO's taint on saidin was annihilated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Flinn saved Rand by sealing away his wound so that the the evils of Fain's dagger and Ishmael's power would fight each other. Given Lanfear's calculating nature, it seems unlikely she would have even brought up challenging the Creator (which nobody else seemingly even thought of or would have any idea how to do) if she didn't have some idea of the feasibility. It's hinted that Rand got the idea for killing the DO from something in his conversation with the Finns, meaning he didn't get a flat out "this is impossible" answer from them. I'll certainly agree that foreshadowing is vague enough that it's open to interpretation and I should take back the "strongly" portion of my comment, but while of course it's far from definitive, it's more than just an offhand comment by one of the Forsaken that this is possible. Edit: I'll also add that the 'challenge the Creator' line was mentioned again in a later book. After Rand was made aware of Callandor's flaws, he remembers Lanfear's statement about the power of the CK being such that he could challenge the Creator, and it scares him. While of course again this isn't definitive, given the way RJ likes to hint at important things by either providing multiple clues or repeating things from past books, one can draw a conclusion based off all this that it's certainly within the realm of possibility.
  8. Um, nothing in what you posted of Jordan's quotes says the DO cannot be killed. It's hinted at very strongly in the books even before BS took over that both the DO and Creator could be killed. Lanfear wants Rand to use the CK with her to knock them both off. It's very strongly hinted that one of Rand's questions to the Finns was how can he kill the DO, and he certainly didn't get an answer of "it's impossible". The epilogue in AMOL, which RJ wrote, has Rand acknowledging a choice that it has to be about free will and that he asked the Finns the wrong question. And whether you like it or not, what's in AMOL is canon, even if we believe that BS came up with "killing the DO" all on his own (which seems highly unlikely).
  9. Doesn't that refer more to the fact that Rand can (and does) grab the "entirety" of the DO and holds him at his mercy?
  10. The series could have easily been finished in two books, it didn't need to be 3. If there were going to be so many nods to fan theories in the book, it would have been great if more time had been spent on fleshing out answers to bigger questions and mysteries from the series, not stuff like "who was a better swordsman, Gawyn Galad or Lan". I was disappointed, but not surprised, at how many things were wrapped up or resolved in a very short amount of space as compared to how long was spent building them up. In this though, I push a lot of the blame onto RJ. RJ did many things great, but I always hated how long he spent on filler material in some of his plot threads and how long he spent building some things up only to have them sputter out in very brief resolutions, and this I think carried over into his notes that BS worked from. I know many will disagree with that part, but it's just my opinion (and mostly applies to his post-LOC books).
  11. Why were the Finns at the LB? I assume it was them that Perrin saw flickers of in the wolf dream.
  12. I have seen some mention of the Finns being at the LB (hinted at when Perrin is fighting Slayer), and the theory that the location of the Tower of Ghenjei being near Mantheren/Shadar Logoth is not a coincidence. Is it believed that the Finns had a motivation in helping Mat to ensure he would be able to kill Fain and prevent Mordeth/Mashadar from getting into the spaces between worlds?
  13. I still don't get why the Shadow's forces didn't break the seals as soon as they could get their hands on them, or why locating them wasn't a higher priority throughout the series. It's pretty clear from AMoL that Rand needed to keep the seals, however flimsy they were, intact until he was at Shayol Ghul and ready to do his thing. Are we supposed to believe that if the seals hadn't been broken anytime before this, allowing the DO more direct access, that it wouldn't have been an advantage? I had been theorizing before this book that the DO couldn't get out of his prison without the Dragon's efforts. The seals would have to be broken and the Dragon would have to widen the Bore or something to battle the DO; this happens by Rand breaking the seals and pulling the DO "into the pattern". So, how would stealing the seals and not breaking them help the DO at all?
  14. Yeah I thought it was pretty ridiculous. All this foreshadowing about how she absolutely had to be rescued from Sindhol and at the Last Battle, and she really does nothing that any other female channeler could have done really. Maybe the recitation of prophecies was important, but that seems more about the post-LastBattle stuff rather than the actual victory over the Shadow.
  15. So what exactly was Slayer's key role in helping Rand succeed? He was formed from Isam and Luc. Luc went to the Blight because of Gitaro's advice. If he hadn't gone, there wouldn't have been a Slayer (presumably, or it would have been just Isam), but I don't see how it would have had any affect on the Light's victory. He kills wolves, battles Perrin a few times, and eventually gets killed, but I don't recall any major "if Slayer wasn't involved, then character X wouldn't have done Y, and the Shadow could have won". Tigraine would have gone to the Aiel Waste anyway and wound up giving birth to Rand. So why was he sent to the Blight?
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