Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[Cybertrolloc]

We don't know, only that she seems to be entirely BS. Ask and find out.

[shortkut]

 

We don't know, only that she seems to be entirely BS. Ask and find out.

Pronoun confusion... Which she, Nakomi from ToM or presumed-Nakomi from aMoL?

[The Harbinger of Light]

I don't think there is enough info in the few passages about Nakomi to completely figure out her role.  However, the creator avatar / mother earth type fits best for me.  She provided prodding for Aviendha to go into Rhuidean again.  She seems to be omnipotent and hints at what is going to happen since he is carrying Moridin.  "He could...see, just faintly.  A figure kneeling down beside him.  "Yes," a woman whispered.  He did not recognize the voice.  "Yes, that's good.  That is what you need to do."  He blinked, his vision fuzzy.  Was that Aiel clothing?  An old woman, with gray hair?"  Somehow she seemed to know that he was going to do something with the body he was carrying, or the creator, or she did it for him.  But that's all just my theory anyways.

[kabasan]

I seems obvious to me that she was the creator.

 

She provided guidance to Avienda in the form of causing her to question her assumptions about the Aiel's future, in preparation for what she would see in Rheudian, thus allowing her to work towards a positive future for the Aiel.

 

She helped Rand switch bodies. After all the crap he went through, the creator was there to help him out.

 

Any attempt at mystery from team Jordan is merely a tool to keep the fans engaged and talking.

Edited March 25, 2013 by kabasan

[Arran]

Robert Jordan has explained time and time again that the Creator does not interfere with the Pattern. I don't think he'd ever go back on that. Nor would he lie about it just to throw us off.

[Suttree]

I seems obvious to me that she was the creator.

 

She provided guidance to Avienda in the form of causing her to question her assumptions about the Aiel's future, in preparation for what she would see in Rheudian, thus allowing her to work towards a positive future for the Aiel.

 

She helped Rand switch bodies. After all the crap he went through, the creator was there to help him out.

 

Any attempt at mystery from team Jordan is merely a tool to keep the fans engaged and talking.

 

Pulled over from the last page:

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Quote

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Quote

Interview: Apr, 1997

SFX Magazine Interview (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

 

Quote

 

Interview: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

Question

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

 

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

 

[mbuehner]

I almost wish she could be the creator. At least that wouldn't leave a glaring hole in the cosmology.

[kabasan]

I wasn't aware of all the RJ quotes on the subject.

 

Still, to me it makes the most sense. If not the creator, than as the majority of voters feel, an avatar thereof.

 

Now we could get into a philosophical discussion about the nature of avatars and whether they consitute intervention by the creator, but there would likely be no consensus on it. Personally I feel an avatar is as good as the creator in that they are fulfilling the creators wishes.

 

What about the entity that spoke to Rand during the finale in tEotW?

 

Again, I'm not completely up to speed on interviews etc, but I thought the consensus there was that the speaker was the creator?

 

If we take that as true, than it would appear to me that the creator as broken his rule not to intervene. The act of speaking (as minimal as it may be) is intervention within his creation. Even if only Rand heard it, the hearing resulted in comprehension, memory, chemical interactions within his brain - itself a physical construct of the world.

 

If I remember correctly, the creator in the Thomas Covenant series only spoke to people from our world, IN our world - or at least during the transition - never WITHIN his creation.

 

Anyway, I like to think of her as the creator.

Edited March 26, 2013 by kabasan

[Arran]

He heard that voice in EotW too, and I also thought it may have been Creator, but RJ's own words leads me to believe that it's not. Also, I'm not sure if Moiraine heard the voice in AMoL too? I seem to remember Moiraine being surprised when Rand heard the voice.

[The Harbinger of Light]

I doubt we will get a definitive answer even when an encyclopedia comes out.  It will probably be one of those mysteries that RJ thought was totally obvious, but the rest of us didn't pick up.  Or perhaps that was his point was to leave it up to interpretation.  Since Nakomi knew what Rand needed to do, I think it makes her a little more special than some wandering spirit.  For me, a Creator avatar or an effect of the Pattern to create a balance works just fine.

[Essy]

I am not sure if this has been said before, but here's my take.

 

I disagree with the 'creator' aspect, however, do we have any information on the first age? I have not seen any.  I just finished aMoL today but here's my spin.  Is there any indication that the dragon was a man in the first age? The way the meal tasted, every thing unspoiled that Avi ate.. what if she is the Dragon still roaming from the first? The same how possibly Rand is going to roam, as it seems he can manipulate the pattern now.

[Suttree]

I am not sure if this has been said before, but here's my take.

 

I disagree with the 'creator' aspect, however, do we have any information on the first age? I have not seen any.  I just finished aMoL today but here's my spin.  Is there any indication that the dragon was a man in the first age? The way the meal tasted, every thing unspoiled that Avi ate.. what if she is the Dragon still roaming from the first? The same how possibly Rand is going to roam, as it seems he can manipulate the pattern now.

The Dragon Soul is male and souls don't change gender. This has been confirmed by RJ.

[Essy]

Well then, there goes my crack pot idea.  On another note, is there any information on the first age at all? How long did the second age last?

[Cybertrolloc]

Other souls can be Champion of the Light, it's just that when the Dragon's around, it's him. As well as there also being a Dragoness type soul or the possibility of one or something.

 

Iirc, the first age to second age is because of the discovery of channeling (there's some RJ chatter on this, not sure how authoritative or how well recorded). Nothing in the main books about it, and doesn't sound like there was a good v evil to do in that one, but probably wouldn't pan that idea immediately either.

[Suttree]

Other souls can be Champion of the Light, it's just that when the Dragon's around, it's him. As well as there also being a Dragoness type soul or the possibility of one or something.

 It's always been my understanding that the CoL is the Dragon Soul and RJ specficially said he didn't intend to explore a female dragon. There are other heroes of course but Rand's soul is the CoL.

 

 

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

One other thing to consider here is we know Rand's soul has gone over to the DO in the past. It would be interesting to hear what would happen in that situation.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Suttree

[Finnssss22]

 

Other souls can be Champion of the Light, it's just that when the Dragon's around, it's him. As well as there also being a Dragoness type soul or the possibility of one or something.

 It's always been my understanding that the CoL is the Dragon Soul and RJ specficially said he didn't intend to explore a female dragon. There are other heroes of course but Rand's soul is the CoL.

 

 

>>Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

One other thing to consider here is we know Rand's soul has gone over to the DO in the past. It would be interesting to hear what would happen in that situation.

 

 

 

Asked and answered 10 years ago..

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Finnssss

[Suttree]

Yes I'm familiar with that quote, I meant what happens in terms of whether someone else steps into the role etc.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Suttree

[Cybertrolloc]

It was one of those Brandon's answer changes everything deals. I know we've talked about and think it was pretty recent, but theoryland interview search and websearch here is coming up empty (my user name + dragon + champion of light).

[Ferdawoon]

 

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

PAUL WARD

Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

PAUL WARD

Neither confirm nor deny? What's up with that?

The question is: Why is the Creator ignoring Randland?

RJ reply with "Who say the creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind?"

So, there is no reason to believe that the creator is not in the equation at all. Completly abscent or just on vacation.

RJ have said that they can expect no help from the Creator, that Rand cannot tap into the powers of the Creator in (my ears similar to how the Forsaken tap into the True Power) and things like that..However, 

 

To me that sound like the Creator have left the fight to mankind: If you want to persist, you need to fight for it. You need to understand why it is worth it to keep fighting, maybe even why the Creator made the world in the first place! It dont mean that after the fight, the Creator won't step in to give a prize to his/her/its champion, the transmogrification of the soul into a new body. 

[shortkut]

The only problem I have with Nakomi being an avatar of the creator is her scene with aviendha. Why would the creator care about the Aiel's future over anyone else's?

[Suttree]

 

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

PAUL WARD

Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

PAUL WARD

Neither confirm nor deny? What's up with that?

The question is: Why is the Creator ignoring Randland?

RJ reply with "Who say the creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind?"

So, there is no reason to believe that the creator is not in the equation at all. Completly abscent or just on vacation.

RJ have said that they can expect no help from the Creator, that Rand cannot tap into the powers of the Creator in (my ears similar to how the Forsaken tap into the True Power) and things like that..However, 

 

To me that sound like the Creator have left the fight to mankind: If you want to persist, you need to fight for it. You need to understand why it is worth it to keep fighting, maybe even why the Creator made the world in the first place! It dont mean that after the fight, the Creator won't step in to give a prize to his/her/its champion, the transmogrification of the soul into a new body. 

 Except there are many other quotes aside from the one you give where RJ makes clear the Creator takes no part.

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Suttree

[Ferdawoon]

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

PAUL WARD

Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

PAUL WARD

Neither confirm nor deny? What's up with that?

The question is: Why is the Creator ignoring Randland?

RJ reply with "Who say the creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind?"

So, there is no reason to believe that the creator is not in the equation at all. Completly abscent or just on vacation.

RJ have said that they can expect no help from the Creator, that Rand cannot tap into the powers of the Creator in (my ears similar to how the Forsaken tap into the True Power) and things like that..However, 

 

To me that sound like the Creator have left the fight to mankind: If you want to persist, you need to fight for it. You need to understand why it is worth it to keep fighting, maybe even why the Creator made the world in the first place! It dont mean that after the fight, the Creator won't step in to give a prize to his/her/its champion, the transmogrification of the soul into a new body. 

 Except there are many other quotes aside from the one you give where RJ makes clear the Creator takes no part.

 

>>>>Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

 

The Creator is not influencing anything. The Creator would not step in to help defend the world. The Creator would not be next to Rand when he battled his emotions. The Creator would not make a huge "Shadowspawn-homing missile" like the one Rand did in Tear to help the good guys win. The Creator would not suddenly give Rand access to his/her own version of the True Power.

Reading your quotes from the top of the page, nothing of what I just said contradict that.

 

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

This is the only thing that could be read as the Creator not even being close to the Pattern (as much as someone can be far away from anything in a void or a plane of non-existence). Like how the constructionworker build a house and once it is finished never set a foot inside it again. But that could be countered with my quote where Jordan tease that the Creator might peek in through the windows of his house to check how things are doing inside.

 

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

This is as I said. No one is going to step in to help. The Creator might be curious about how things are going, but no help will come. No help to fix what they did wrong when the borde the whole. They have now fixed what they did wrong, the Dark one is out of the pattern again and the bore is mended ("forged anew"), and the Creator did not help to make that happen in any way.

 

Interview: Apr, 1997

SFX Magazine Interview (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

Again, the Creator will not participate in the fight in any way. No divine favors. "You fekked things up, you sort it. I can always just creat a new world.". Jordan also say specificly: "in defeating the Dark one"..

 

Interview: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

Question

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

 

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

Helping Rand at the end, is not really participating or affecting the outcome. The Last Battle has been won (for now) and the world need to recover. In no way did the Creator affect the outcome of the Last Battle and in no way is the Creator helping to rebuild the world or even help stabilize the pattern (all the dark fissure of void on the ground could be mended by the Creator but according to Sanderson: "All of the cracks from balefire use are still present in the world, but will eventually heal themselves." ). The Creator will not be affecting anything, or admitting any imperfections, if he/she would like to congratulate his/her champion. 

 

In analogy with the christian theology (probably other myths as well but that's the one I'm familiar with) Rand "died on the cross" to save mankind and all that. Now he has been allowed to enter a new body in which he can live out a life in peace and harmony, being one with the world. God, the Creator, helped to make that transition happen. Unless we accept that Rand had the power to soul-swap all by himself or that the Balefire-crossing somehow enabled a link to let it happen automaticly or subcounciously for some reason.

Either Rand switched bodies on his won somehow, or Nakomi was the one to do it with a weave, ter'angreal or using a similar force as we see Rand use to light his pipe. Either that, or the Creator did it. We only know one force that can move souls if done close to the moment of death and that is the Dark One. I doubt the Dark One, just being sealed out of the Pattern, could still have that kind of influence over the world. We do know that Nyms were made alive by borrowing a soul from the "reservoir" of souls awaiting rebirth so at least people knew how to "borrow" souls.

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

QUESTION

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

ROBERT JORDAN

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

TAGS

constructs, souls, nym, trollocs,

 

 

 

Or, simply, as is mentioned in the TOR-chat summary: "Regarding Nakomi: “With all of the homages to global myths/legends in WoT is it fair to consider Nakomi as a Wandering Jew/Jenn?” Brandon’s response: “That’s a very clever question that nobody has yet asked me. I’m not going to say more, however.”

 

Or, Nakomi could just be a correction mechanism of the Pattern, ment to try to avoid the bad stuff going to happen to the Aiel.

 

Either way, I still argue that the Creator is not "never ever looking in to see what is going on", but rather taking a stroll through the lands from time to time, as a gardener would go in to see how things are progressing. Not to help the plants grow or take care of them, but just to admire how things are progressing.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ferdawoon

[Suttree]

Meh. You really are dancing around a number of things to make it fit. Would be an interesting question for Brandon at some point.

[Ferdawoon]

Meh. You really are dancing around a number of things to make it fit. Would be an interesting question for Brandon at some point.

 

Honestly, I have seen much worse dancing around in these forums with ideas that seem to be taken seriously.. Where words and quotes are really picked apart to its smallest threads to try to get ideas across. Especially so when it comes to the prophecy-discussions..

You linked a quote where Jordan say the Creator is completly off the chart as far as influencing events goes. I linked one where it was hinted that maybe the Creator is not completly abascent. Then you link a few qoutes about how the Creator will not help Randland win the Last Battle in an attempt by RJ to show that he wont just be using the Creator as a sudden "solve every problem"-thing. I dont see how that is dancing around to make things fit.

 

Also, no point asking Brandon I guess:

 

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/brandon-sandersons-wheel-of-time-answers-from-torchat

 

There are three questions Brandon is not allowed to answer about the Wheel of Time:

1. Who Nakomi was.
2. How Rand lit the pipe at the end of the series.
3. How Rand and Moridin swapped bodies.

 

Not even Brandon knows what’s going with Rand’s pipe-lighting at the end ofA Memory of Light. “I put it in as RJ instructed, and I know nothing more about it than fandom does, I’m afraid.”

The very final scene, where Rand lights his pipe and heads off into the world was the ending scene that Robert Jordan wrote when it became clear that he would not finish the series on his own. The entire epilogue is Jordan’s, barring a few small Loial inserts and Perrin’s scenes, and was written and not dictated.

 

 

 

So I guess unless it will be in the encyclopedia or some spin-off story, we will never really know.

[Suttree]

Taking an interest(and even then RJ was coy about it) is far different than playing a part. Rand has no connection to the Creator and "The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything."

 

Also "To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself." What else would you call him stepping in to save Rand's soul aside from taking a part and acting "miraculously".  You twist what RJ said in quotes into "he wont just be using the Creator as a sudden "solve every problem"-thing" which isn't accurate and you also seem to be taking pieces from the quotes while ignoring others to back your theory.

 

As for Brandon maybe someone could get around those three things by asking questions more specific to the Creator? Could be interesting.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Suttree