Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[mbuehner]

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

[Vambram]

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

 

 

Apparently, there is more than enough scraps concerning Nakomi to have 8 pages of debate here on Dragonmount. That does not sound like weak sauce to me.

[Grond]

Alright...here it is.  Nakomi is the Creator.  Why wouldn't the Creator come down and save his "Dragon" from dieing? Can anyone else transmutate souls other than the Dark One? Out of ALL the books, the only one that has been able to transmutate was the DO...so why wouldn't The Creator come back (as an Aiel, of course...because the original Aeil were uber-peace loving, gentle, and nuturing) and give Rand a new life?  Plus, the DO was always set forth as a male, right? Isn't the Creator supposed to be the oposite of the DO? Brings me back to something that I remember reading a long time ago...only women can create, men can only destroy.  Doesn't that sound EXACTLY like the difference between the Creator and the DO?  That would lend more truth to Nakomi (Aiel, Woman and able to transmutate sould) being The Creator.

 

I think that BS has given the hint...and it's so straight-forward that everyone is looking for the hidden meaning instead of exactly what he meant.  He can't come right out and say that its The Creator...but he CAN say that there is a hint in AMoL as to who she is.  To me, that hint is the transmutation. 

 

Its a simple fact of applying Occams Razor to the issue - the simplest answer is usually the right answer.

 

Maybe the question to ask is why wouldn't she be considered The Creator?

[Suttree]

Alright...here it is.  Nakomi is the Creator.  Why wouldn't the Creator come down and save his "Dragon" from dieing?

I'll let RJ answer that:

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Interview: Apr, 1997

SFX Magazine Interview (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

 

 

Interview: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

Question

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

 

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

[mbuehner]

 

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

 

 

Apparently, there is more than enough scraps concerning Nakomi to have 8 pages of debate here on Dragonmount. That does not sound like weak sauce to me.

 

Eight pages of bitching more like it. Plus you can get 8 pages on whether a grolm can beat a fade. There's good debate and bad debate. When your series is over and your debating why some unexplained character popped up to inexplicably save your main character's life, you've got yourself a bad debate.

Edited March 18, 2013 by mbuehner

[Arran]

I still think we'll be given a little more insight in the Encyclopedia. I can live without knowing how Rand lit the bloody pipe, but this whole Nakomi thing is driving me crazy!

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I think she is an Aiel Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends with either the Foretelling Talent or who saw the future through the ter'angreal that put herself into a time stasis with a ward that would release her when one of her people did what Aviendha did. Perhaps she wanted to witness this moment for herself or something to make sure someone else would gain knowledge of the future.

[Vambram]

 

 

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

 

 

Apparently, there is more than enough scraps concerning Nakomi to have 8 pages of debate here on Dragonmount. That does not sound like weak sauce to me.

 

Eight pages of bitching more like it. Plus you can get 8 pages on whether a grolm can beat a fade. There's good debate and bad debate. When your series is over and your debating why some unexplained character popped up to inexplicably save your main character's life, you've got yourself a bad debate.

 

Do you have a problem with not all of your questions being answered? Or did you NOT know that RJ himself had said in interviews  that he would finish the series with some questions still not being answered?

 

Also, there is  nothing in the text that says Nakomi saved Rand's life. Nothing at all. Perhaps you think this is a bad debate because of your own misinterpretations of the scenes from the books?

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

 

 

Apparently, there is more than enough scraps concerning Nakomi to have 8 pages of debate here on Dragonmount. That does not sound like weak sauce to me.

 

Eight pages of bitching more like it. Plus you can get 8 pages on whether a grolm can beat a fade. There's good debate and bad debate. When your series is over and your debating why some unexplained character popped up to inexplicably save your main character's life, you've got yourself a bad debate.

 

Do you have a problem with not all of your questions being answered? Or did you NOT know that RJ himself had said in interviews  that he would finish the series with some questions still not being answered?

 

Also, there is  nothing in the text that says Nakomi saved Rand's life. Nothing at all. Perhaps you think this is a bad debate because of your own misinterpretations of the scenes from the books?

No, I dont have a problem with all my questions not being answered. Like Arran said above, I don't need a full explanation of how Rand lit his pipe. I don't need to know what happened to Matt or Perrin, or even if the Rhuidean future largely comes true. But those are issues with background and depth that can be debated, and don't necessarily touch on or upset our understanding of the cosmology of Randland.

 

Nakomi is entirely different. There is no background, there is no parameters of debate. Maybe she is an AS from the AoL, maybe she is the creator, maybe she is a crossover from a Green Lantern comic. We have no idea, no parameters, she could be anything or anyone with any powers imaginable. And she clearly played a major role in Rand's survival, sorry, if she didnt that character is even MORE insipid and pointless- if she didnt facilitate the body switch just what was she doint there? If 'nothing' is the answer its an even more inane question.

 

So if you think this is a wonderful opportunity for some REALLY awesome fanfic, great, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But don't dump on me for pointing out that its a silly dues ex machina, completely out of left field, that adds nothing to our knowledge, understanding, and enjoyment of the series. If Jar Jar Binks inexplicably popped up at SG you could make the same argument you are making- hey, didn't you know RJ SAID we wouldn't get all the answers?!!! Yeah, I know he said that.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BS also has a long history of making statements with a wink and a nod that turn out to be... lets, be generous and call them Aes Sedaiesque ultimately. The points he made could apply to virtually anything and meet the letter of the law.

 

The whole thing is entirely condescending. Its like asking a small child 'well what do YOU think it means?!'. Well and good if youre talking about Santa with a 6 year old, but I'm a grown assed man that has spent twenty years ready these books and would appreciate at least not having smoke blown at my nether regions. You know how I know Nakomi was a McGuffin made to look 'cool' and 'mysterious', because there is literally nothing else left for her to be. Books are over, she came out of nowhere and went nowere and there isnt even enough scraps to have a real debate over. Thats weak sauce.

Apparently, there is more than enough scraps concerning Nakomi to have 8 pages of debate here on Dragonmount. That does not sound like weak sauce to me.

Eight pages of bitching more like it. Plus you can get 8 pages on whether a grolm can beat a fade. There's good debate and bad debate. When your series is over and your debating why some unexplained character popped up to inexplicably save your main character's life, you've got yourself a bad debate.

Do you have a problem with not all of your questions being answered? Or did you NOT know that RJ himself had said in interviews that he would finish the series with some questions still not being answered?

 

Also, there is  nothing in the text that says Nakomi saved Rand's life. Nothing at all. Perhaps you think this is a bad debate because of your own misinterpretations of the scenes from the books?

No, I dont have a problem with all my questions not being answered. Like Arran said above, I don't need a full explanation of how Rand lit his pipe. I don't need to know what happened to Matt or Perrin, or even if the Rhuidean future largely comes true. But those are issues with background and depth that can be debated, and don't necessarily touch on or upset our understanding of the cosmology of Randland.

 

Nakomi is entirely different. There is no background, there is no parameters of debate. Maybe she is an AS from the AoL, maybe she is the creator, maybe she is a crossover from a Green Lantern comic. We have no idea, no parameters, she could be anything or anyone with any powers imaginable. And she clearly played a major role in Rand's survival, sorry, if she didnt that character is even MORE insipid and pointless- if she didnt facilitate the body switch just what was she doint there? If 'nothing' is the answer its an even more inane question.

 

So if you think this is a wonderful opportunity for some REALLY awesome fanfic, great, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But don't dump on me for pointing out that its a silly dues ex machina, completely out of left field, that adds nothing to our knowledge, understanding, and enjoyment of the series. If Jar Jar Binks inexplicably popped up at SG you could make the same argument you are making- hey, didn't you know RJ SAID we wouldn't get all the answers?!!! Yeah, I know he said that.

You are of course entirely correct. That said, trust me you are wasting your time with this particular conversation.

[Centauri25]

Nakomi is The Mahdoubt.

 

Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

[Vambram]

Sut, and mbuenher, the both of you are, of course, entirely incorrect. 

 

Both of you are free to choose to believe what you want to believe. However, there have been 197 people who voted in the poll of this thread, and those 197 appear to disagree with you both that Nakomi is fanfic and that she is something inexplicably random put into the book by Sanderson without any input at all from RJ. 

 

Clearly, though, continuing this conversation with either one of you is a waste of my time, so this post is the last that I will say to either one of you about Nakomi.

[Pinzarn]

I am chalking the Nakomi character up to "blown out of proportion".  The fans did it with Asmodean and Taim.  RJ/BS did it with the BUT and "_____ in the Blight".  All were such a dissapointment when revealed.  They have one more book to sell, so why not keep fanning the flames.

[mbuehner]

I appreciate the sanity check Suttree. Vambram doesn't want to respond, that's fine- but I will address his point about the poll, because it indicated exactly the opposite of what he claims it does.

Think about it- the series is over and there are a dozen different names tossed out (most drawing votes) for who/what this character is... a character that made an appearance at the very climax of a 14 book, 25 year series. The choices are good guys, bad guys, indifferent, magical, spiritual, god himself...

 

And that's the point, Nakomi is a cypher. She can be whoever you want her to be, which is what we tell elementary school children when they ask tough questions about fairy tales. Even Tom Bombadil had a backstory. Like I said, its FINE to argue that tossing in some unknown, (and more critically) unknowable character into the climax of a series is ok to do as a writer. I disagree, and it sticks in my craw. The fact that people spend kilobytes of data complaining about it or arguing over it doesn't make it a success. People spend time and energy panning bad restaurants to, that doesn't mean its good for business.

[Cybertrolloc]

That's some delicious irony, please don't delete this page mods.

[Bluedust9]

I admire Suttree's dedication to this forum. I'm jealous bro.

[Suttree]

I admire Suttree's dedication to this forum. I'm jealous bro.

How else am I supposed to kill 8 hours in the office? ;)

[Frost Wynters]

I just don't understand why she was thrown in the book.  We WONT know who she is.. ever.  What was  the point of putting her in the book.  Only crazier thing would be for Sanderson to make a character his own, then have him do  all the things  that Jordan's characters could've done.  (oh wait.. nvm)

[shortkut]

Was the Aiel woman outside the cave in the epilogue RJ or BS? That could be part of why BS added her in ToM

[Arran]

Was the Aiel woman outside the cave in the epilogue RJ or BS? That could be part of why BS added her in ToM

The epilogue is all RJ apart from Cadsuane, I believe. I can't remember exactly how it went down, but I believe Brandon needed a reason for her to be there, so he had Maria dig out something he could use from RJ's notes. This is what I remember from what I've heard anyways, not sure if i've quoted it exactly right or not!

[Suttree]

The concept for Nakomi the character came from something Brandon found "deep in the notes". Her existence was not plotted by RJ.  Luckers said this in the first couple posts...

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suttree

[Arran]

 

The concept for Nakomi the character came from something Brandon found "deep in the notes". Her existence was not plotted by RJ.  Luckers said this in the first couple posts...

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

Thanks for clearing that up, Suttree! It's been a while since I read the first few posts so I totally forgot about that. So when you say that RJ didn't plot her for the book, does that mean that it wasn't RJ who incorporated her into Rand's 'exiting the mountain' scene? Because I was under the impression that RJ wrote the whole epilogue apart from Cadsuane's POV.

[mbuehner]

 

 

The concept for Nakomi the character came from something Brandon found "deep in the notes". Her existence was not plotted by RJ.  Luckers said this in the first couple posts...

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

Thanks for clearing that up, Suttree! It's been a while since I read the first few posts so I totally forgot about that. So when you say that RJ didn't plot her for the book, does that mean that it wasn't RJ who incorporated her into Rand's 'exiting the mountain' scene? Because I was under the impression that RJ wrote the whole epilogue apart from Cadsuane's POV.

 

That's the question. The one thing that is certain is the RJ didn't write that scene verbatim, because the name Nakomi could not have been in it.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

She is RJ's last inclusion of a minor, tertiary character. Personally, while I think her background involves time travelling or stasis, it doesn't really make a difference, either way. 

[shortkut]

 

The concept for Nakomi the character came from something Brandon found "deep in the notes". Her existence was not plotted by RJ. Luckers said this in the first couple posts...

 

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

As others said, it didn't answer my question. Did RJ have him see a woman, see an Aiel woman, or see no woman as rand exited the cave?