Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[InfinLuminous]

"1. The above had nothing to do with Luckers theory."

 

Peter: "If Brandon wanted to clarify otherwise, he would. However, you are stating things as fact that are conjecture, and I'll leave it at that."

 

This came during a discussion where you claimed that Nakomi was "all Brandon" in support of Luckers angry contention that Nakomi was theory fodder and nothing more. It's all there in black and white in the first two pages of the thread, my friend. I know it was embarrassing for you to get called out like that, but let's not pretend that it didn't happen. My question is, in light of all of this, do you still adhere to Nakomi=theory fodder, or do you not? If not, what are you own thoughts on the subject?

 

"2. Saying the RJ quote = proof of the Creator's involvement takes some truly astonishing mental gymnastics. As does leaping from the voice of the Creator(if indeed that is the case) = proof of the Creator being willing to use an avatar.

3. The creator does not act "miraculously or no"...pretty black and white. Plus:"

 

As we have both established, there are clearly contradictory statements from Jordan regarding the Creator. You need to start considering those statements as a whole instead of cherry-picking the ones that you'd like. When ALL of the statements are taken as whole, they in no way foreclose the Nakomi=Avatar theory, as you have claimed. The voice of the Creator in The Eye of the World and A Memory of Light (which you have conceded by not arguing otherwise) is strong evidence of which quote is more reflective of the author's true intent, and allow us to interpret the Jordan quotes that you have reference in a more nuanced way than you have argued.

Edited March 26, 2014 by InfinLuminous

[Suttree]

There are multiple answers along those lines and absolutely nothing to contradict them. As pointed out the single statement that exists which you've regurgitated here takes a huge leap of logic. Further it does not confirm or deny anything, much the same as Peter's response.

 

Lastly the level of honesty in how you are approach the discussion along with the attempst at revisionist history don't do you many favors.

 

Edited March 27, 2014 by Suttree

[Nick Trano]

Suttree, I too would be interested in seeing your theory. Generally when you attack an idea you also offer an alternative. You know: "No, the earth isn't flat; It's round." For the past few pages you've just been telling people that their evidence is worthless and their arguments false, without any real reasons.

 

What was the voice? Who is Nakomi?

[Mats Spare Hat]

He already did share his thoughts/theory. They're in the first handful of pages in the thread...Rafo.


Sheesh...

[Suttree]

Snip

Think you are lacking a little perspective concerning the other participant in this discussion lad...

 

For the past few pages you've just been telling people that their evidence is worthless

It is...and for clarity I've been telling one particular person.

 

and their arguments false, without any real reasons.

Aside from pointing out logic fails and providing multiple word of god quotes? As Mat's said read the whole thread mate.

 

Generally when you attack an idea you also offer an alternative.

You don't say.

 

Spend some time looking at old conversations and overall contributions here at DM. Your barking up the wrong tree.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Suttree

[InfinLuminous]

I went back and looked at all of the pages of the thread, and aside from some vague support of Luckers' theory and some Jordan quotes (which have already been dealt with and counter-evidence, including a contrary Jordan quote, provided), you really have not made an argument. I am seriously interested in your own thoughts and arguments in support of your thoughts on this matter, and am not sure why you are reluctant to engage beyond saying that you kinda/sorta/maybe agree with Luckers, even though Sanderson and Peter both shot down his theory.

 

So who is the voice?

[InfinLuminous]

Also, your interpretation of the Jordan quotes that you have provided only makes sense if the voice in The Eye of the World and A Memory of Light is NOT the Creator. So, you really need to deal with the issue of the voice - it's a prerequisite to your entire argument, which so far has only consisted of those couple of quotes.

[Suttree]

1. Burden of proof lies on your side I'm not saying it again and your attempts at obfuscation in order to avoid an honest debate are reaching absurd lengths.

2. You consistently(at this point it has to be deliberate) fabricate things and have offered zero concrete support for your theory. Not have you adequately addressed the multiple word of god quotes that shoot it down.

3. Not sure why you are attempting to carry on this farce of claiming that one RJ statement and Peters quote confirm or deny anything. Everyone can see they don't. Hence they do not support Nakomi = Avatar in the slightest. In fact the Peter quote says nothing about Luckers theory and RJ's is a textbook AS statement.

4. You've done zero to prove the voice actually is the Creator. It's not up to the other side to do anything here. One again burden of proof lies squarely with you.

5. Brandon stating Nakomi is not solely theory fodder does not = Nakomi is an avatar. Further the creator having an avatar would not be based on something found "deep in the notes".

6. As for Nakomi and who she is, not sure why you keep asking what I think. You were around for old debates and saw my posts then. I fell into the Verin camp and acknowledged being wrong when that was debunked. Regardless she served no purpose and at this point what she wasn't is clearly more important than who she was.

In the end most of what you've tried to present is either an outright lie, a deliberate twisting of facts or an attempt muddy the waters and avoid having to present actual evidence for your theory. Until you're ready to do that I'm done.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Suttree

[InfinLuminous]

I think your personal attacks are a bit much, don't you? I will kindly ask that you refrain from calling me a liar or confusing me with other posters that you apparently have disagreed with in the past.

 

"1. Burden of proof lies on your side I'm not saying it again and your attempts at obfuscation in order to avoid an honest debate are reaching absurd lengths."

 

I am trying to have an honest debate, but only one side is actually willing to try. For several threads I have been discussing why the voice being the Creator lends support to the Nakomi=Avatar theory. That's evidence and support. You can not like it, but you have to deal with it. Just saying "I don't believe the voice is the Creator" isn't good enough. Explain why. If the voice is not the Creator, then who is it? Are you seriously arguing that the voice is no one? It doesn't really exist? A fever dream from Rand? Seriously, put your cards on the table so that we can have an honest discussion about it. What do you think the voice was?

 

"4. You've done zero to prove the voice actually is the Creator. It's not up to the other side to do anything here. One again burden of proof lies squarely with you."

 

An entity spoke to Rand in The Eye of the World and A Memory of Light. We have all read the text from those books. From the context it is clear that the entity was not the Dark One. Nothing else fits aside from the Creator. Who do you think the voice was?

 

"In fact the Peter quote says nothing about Luckers theory."

 

Luckers claimed that Nakomi was theory fodder from Brandon. In attempting to support that theory, you claimed that Brandon admitted that Nakomi was "all Brandon." Peter chimed in to make it clear that you were misrepresenting what Brandon said. Clearly related to Luckers theory since that was EXACTLY the topic being discussed when Peter decided to weigh in (an ununusal occurrence in and of itself). Are you suggesting that Peter did not know what was being discussed? He just randomly popped in, read a single post and then decided to kneecap you? That's ludicrous.

Edited March 27, 2014 by InfinLuminous

[Ian Ohlander]

I tend to agree with Suttree regarding Lucker's theory- partially. I think BS was looking for a way to nudge Aviendha into considering the future of the Aiel after the death of Rand and the last battle. Up to that point, no one had considered it. It had to be organic in some way. I think that he, or Maria, found something in the notes that intrigued him and he decided to flesh that out or manifest that as Nakomi. His quotes only referring to "something deep in the notes" not that he found Nakomi herself as a character deep in the notes. Personally, I alternate between viewing her as either a hero of the horn in TAR (the Avi incident bears all the marks of TAR and at the last battle the worlds had thinned enough at the bore that it might have been possible for Nakomi to interact with Rand physically) or that she is somehow a manifestation of the wheel. As RJ described it, the wheel is the most advanced AI computing machine imaginable. I lean slightly toward the former.

 

I agree that the Creator would not directly take part, and his doing so using an avatar seems to go against that, as he would have been influencing Avi in a particular direction. I DO think the voice in TEOTW and AMOL was the creator for a couple of reasons. All it basically said was 'I'm not taking part. It's up to the chosen. But the game to decide will be played later." Later in AMOL, all it said was 'Ok. Now it's time. This is the place." The fact that the DO expressed surprise when Rand entered indicates that he wasn't aware, whereas the voice knew. If it was the creator, none of what he said "influenced" anything. It just told Rand the rules of the game, so to speak. So no contradiction to RJ's words.

 

Obviously, BS had to actually know what she was once he decided to create a character to use in this fashion (though not Hoid, similar in function.) At the same time, I think he purposely has left it vague exactly as theory fodder. So BS and Peter can claim that she isn't there just to be theory fodder because she actually had a role, and yet the purposeful leaving of her as a mystery can be exactly for that reason. They can be technically accurate because she DOES play an important role (though personally, he could have achieved the same function without introducing new mysteries this close to the end) and yet the refusal to divulge any more can serve to provoke fandom into speculation since no new books will be coming out.

 

I will express the same irritation another poster mentioned at all the RAFO's we are getting after the fact. Yes, I know RJ wanted to leave some mystery- the pipe or the LTT/Rand one person/two people debates, for example. But frankly, beyond those, it just seems needless. It seems like they know that no more books are coming out, except for an Encyclopedia, and yet they want to keep the fans talking about the series forever. Personal opinion, I know. I am not holding my breath that the encyclopedia is going to answer philosophical questions or prophecy fulfillment. I wish it would, but I doubt it (would love to be wrong on this.) Especially if it is written "in universe" as the Guide is, because then the information is only limited to what a person in-world would know, with all their room for misinformation or error.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ian Ohlander

[Levryk]

Ok this is just a theory I came up with while eating a burrito (not related just a little food for thought), please feel free to break it down. This follows a bit with the idea nakomi is rand from another time.

So the sealing of the prison in the age before legends (age of myth maybe?) perhaps the dragon of that age had her consciousness transferred to nakomi, just as rand into moridin. That dragon knew the bore would be remade and the shadow would fall heavy upon the pattern again. So she (nakomi/the dragon) began the aiel as peaceful servants, setting them up to be in a position to become the spear of the dragon. When the bore opened she led the aiel away, then subsequently began the Jenn, who wondered the desert waiting for the dragon to be reborn.

With rands victory nakomi could finally rest, leaving the mantle of the dragon to be carried by rand until the next cycle. Perhaps?

Here is my reasoning.

1. The miraculous coal heat, and food made for aviendha.

2. Her concern for the future of the people she made a spear, just like rand, she saw them as tools at first, but as a peoples in the end.

3. She tells rand as he comes out of SG "You did so well." Or something to that effect, a thanks and final parting as she joins the lace of the age again.

4. The book is of the wheel, the wheel is balance, only one dragon is not balance, it would call for the cycle of two dragons, a male, and a female, to contrast the true power, one being fully realized dragon, one preparing to don the true mantle of the dragon, an eon of waiting for the cycle to repeat anew. Just like saidar and saidin, one is tainted, one is whole.

5. I think that is all my evidence but I may come up with more later

[Suttree]

Rand is the dragon soul and souls don't change gender per RJ.

[Levryk]

Not the same soul, an equivalent soul. Saidin is the same as saidar except its completely separate. Same idea.

 

And might I say I havent read every post on this thread (i have read many tho) but good lord suttree I gotta say; I may not agree with you on every point, but I certainly admire your devotion to debate. It takes a burning passion to hold online debates, especially with different people through time on a single thread. Man I love TWOT! Can't wait for more content from BS.

[mbuehner]

The Creator's having only one champion, and his being a male, does seem a major discrepancy in the otherwise symmetrical cosmology of Randland.  I seem to recall RJs views on the Dragon, the creators champion, and the turn of the wheel were quite a bit more complicated (or confused if you read it like i did) than the simple- every turn has a dragon, that dragon is always the same soul, he is the creators champion.  Admittedly its been a while, but i recall RJ being a bit coy and very specific with his language about this subject.

 

Like I said, i'd have to go back and read everything he said on the subject, but it seems to me the most satisfying explanation would be something that would allow for a female counterpart to Rand, and Nakomi being in the 'enlightened' state during this age that Rand assumed at the end, and perhaps Nakomi being reborn for another turn of the wheel while Rand does his Kung Fu walking the earth. But I dont know that that could slip past the definitive statements RJ made.

Edited April 7, 2014 by mbuehner

[damandred]

For me, i think she was a jenn time traveler. We know the jenn and the AS who were with them had some clues about what was going to happen, and not just in the dreamer/foretelling sense. Rands aiel ancestor knows himself marked, that seems that they knew rand was going to come from his line. They also built or at least erected the glass pillar ter, angreal, but the biggest pointer for me is, the jenn had the welfare of the aiel at heart, they wanted thier race to survive the last battle. Why would the creator get involved in saving one race?

 

Maybe not a time traveler in a physical way, maybe some sort of astral projection, sent into the future to put avi on the right path.

[Suttree]

Admittedly its been a while, but i recall RJ being a bit coy and very specific with his language about this subject.

Interview: Apr 4th, 2001

Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Interview: Dec 12th, 2000

CNN Chat (Verbatim)

Jonan

Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another age, another turning of the wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

Robert Jordan

That is not something I intend to explore.

 

 

Interview: 2001

Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)

Signing Report (Workings of the Wheel) Robert Jordan

Female Dragon..NO when a female hero is needed she is one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

 

Matt Hatch

So, there was a question about the Dragon soul, and whether that was a title or not—was that your question?—so,he did answer. Someone asked him, because it had to do with...the entirety of the question was, you know, can it change? Could it be a woman, could it be a female? Would it be the same person in a new Turning? And his point, his answer was, it could not be female—that the soul would remain the same gender—and he also said that it would not necessarily be Rand in the next Turning. So in other words, it would still be that same soul, but it would not be—necessarily—the Rand story, the next time around. It might be...whatever. And he talked about it just because, looking at the Pattern as things change in Turnings, little things are going to change, or I guess in this case, maybe it's something bigger. So, I don't know if that answers your question, but that is answered again.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Suttree

[Suttree]

Interesting stuff coming out of JC concerning Nakomi:

 

 

Terez

Anyway, the gist of Brandon's answers: RJ did write the woman in the coming-out-of-the-mountain scene. Brandon is not sure if he changed her physical description or not, but he says that if he did change anything about the scene, it would have been that. I'm not sure exactly what it means but perhaps a transcript will make it more clear. He says that the "deep in the notes" thing was Brandon digging in the notes to try to figure out who the woman in that scene was supposed to be. He didn't say "And then I decided to use her with Aviendha" but since he's said he pitched that whole Aviendha sequence, it would seem obvious that's what happened.

I also asked him how he could be sure that the powers Nakomi displayed with Aviendha weren't the same as Rand's new powers if he didn't know anything more about the pipe than the fans do. He said it's because he knows what Nakomi was doing and he's sure it can't be what Rand was doing. There's more to that answer, which I will type up eventually, but my impression was that (as we suspected) Aviendha was actually asleep, and Nakomi entered her dream. We don't know of any other Heroes doing that, but it would make the most sense with the options available.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Suttree

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

nakomi is tigraine?and she is a hero of the horn?

so when rand came back from the pit of doom his mother was there

to say goodbye?(as i recall,the heroes of the horn were in shayol ghul).

[Southpaw89]

 

Interesting stuff coming out of JC concerning Nakomi:

 

 

Terez

Anyway, the gist of Brandon's answers: RJ did write the woman in the coming-out-of-the-mountain scene. Brandon is not sure if he changed her physical description or not, but he says that if he did change anything about the scene, it would have been that. I'm not sure exactly what it means but perhaps a transcript will make it more clear. He says that the "deep in the notes" thing was Brandon digging in the notes to try to figure out who the woman in that scene was supposed to be. He didn't say "And then I decided to use her with Aviendha" but since he's said he pitched that whole Aviendha sequence, it would seem obvious that's what happened.

 

I also asked him how he could be sure that the powers Nakomi displayed with Aviendha weren't the same as Rand's new powers if he didn't know anything more about the pipe than the fans do. He said it's because he knows what Nakomi was doing and he's sure it can't be what Rand was doing. There's more to that answer, which I will type up eventually, but my impression was that (as we suspected) Aviendha was actually asleep, and Nakomi entered her dream. We don't know of any other Heroes doing that, but it would make the most sense with the options available.

 

 

To add on to this, he also confirmed that Nakomi's power in ToM was a power already established in the series. It wasn't some new element used to present a mysterious character. He wouldn't directly answer my question of whether or not Nakomi's power depended on whether or not Aviendha was asleep but just said her power was an established concept. 

[Suttree]

@suttree,

nakomi is tigraine?and she is a hero of the horn?

so when rand came back from the pit of doom his mother was there

to say goodbye?(as i recall,the heroes of the horn were in shayol ghul).

 

Interesting theory for sure. As I said earlier there would have been no need to "dig deep" in the notes to figure out "who the character was" if it was an avatar(which we already knew was impossible from RJ). Now the Tigraine or possible Jenn Aiel angle could work. Should be noted as well that Brandon said we were "sniffing under the right tree" in relation to the Jenn.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=638#8

 

What's for certain after all this new info is we can put the final nail in the coffin concerning a Creator's avatar once and for all.

 

@southpaw89

 

Cheers for the extra info.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Suttree

[mbuehner]

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina. 

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery. 

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Edited April 15, 2014 by mbuehner

[damandred]

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

 

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

[InfinLuminous]

"If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina."

 

Not really, though. RJ had already established a passive role for the Creator when the Creator spoke on two separate occasions. As Nakomi, all the Creator really does is give some words of encouragement to Aviendha, but doesn't in any way change the course of events. Ditto with her appearing when Rand was accomplishing the body swap with Moridin. All she does is confirm that what Rand is already doing is the correct thing. If Nakomi were Tigraine or a Jenn, there is no way she would know that what Rand was doing was body-swapping with Moridin. The Creator is the only thing that fits.

[mbuehner]

"If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina." Not really, though. RJ had already established a passive role for the Creator when the Creator spoke on two separate occasions. As Nakomi, all the Creator really does is give some words of encouragement to Aviendha, but doesn't in any way change the course of events. Ditto with her appearing when Rand was accomplishing the body swap with Moridin. All she does is confirm that what Rand is already doing is the correct thing. If Nakomi were Tigraine or a Jenn, there is no way she would know that what Rand was doing was body-swapping with Moridin. The Creator is the only thing that fits.

Well, you could argue that words of encouragement are an active role, especially since its going to cause decisions to be made that radically change the future.

But your alternative has a problem to- it just makes Nakomi literally pointless. Style points might be worse than theory fodder.

[Suttree]

One interesting thing I saw Dom post over at TL is the possibility of a Nakomi/Tigraine/Calian link:

 

It's an interesting detail in itself that RJ chose to make this pair appear masked in their archetypal appearances. It's easy to suggest that Calian and Shivan either aren't what people think they are when they are alive or maybe that their nature and role as instruments/agents in Prophecies remains mostly hidden from humanity (Tigraine proclaiming "I am the Maiden and Chooser, here to choose my mate and give birth to the man who will decide to end this Age and maybe all Ages while my brother will be there in position at the end if the Dragon needs to be killed wouldn't exactly go well with the populace...), that they go under the radar, or appear under more than one identities, both of which would fit the profiles of Tigraine and Luc, public figures of Andor who actually both played an occult role none have fully put together, one as part of Slayer (occulted) and the other as Shaiel (largely occulted). Shaiel made the choice to follow Gitara's foretelling and chose a lover in Janduin and gave birth, in self-sacrifice, to humanity's "choice", incarnated in Rand, following prophecy. Tigraine's choices set in motion the "beginning of the end of the Age", the last 20 years of the cycle, while Luc played his part all the way to the very last minutes of the Age. Luc also hunted down Janduin (and killed him, preventing him from becoming a Red Veil - not sure it's relevant, but I point it out, and preventing him from pre-uniting part of the Aiel, maybe starting a war among the clans) and hunted down Rand to the Pit of Doom, bringing in his throes Lanfear who manipulated him and Perrin who hunted him with the wolves, who killed both the Slayer/Hunter and Moonhunter, preventing them from killing Rand who had made the right choice, in the very last moments of "the Third Age" and very first of the Fourth.

It works even better if Calian/Tigraine returns as Nakomi to encourage Rand's "death and rebirth". Tigraine's choices, and Luc's Hunt also set in motion events that lead to Elayne taking the throne of Andor down the line, while setting Elaida on her path to take the Amyrlin Seat, not to mention the foretelling about Tigraine/Luc guided Tar Valon (Gitara and Tamra)and the confirmation it had been partly fulfilled with Rand's birth is tied to Moiraine's mission. For Luc, there is then the Dark Prophecy, heralding his final role with Lanfear in AMOL.

None of that is of course fully conclusive, but Tigraine and Luc certainly could fit the names of "The Chooser" and "The Hunter", while as for their archetypes it's harder to tell because Jordan never gave us terribly good clues to define them, except they worked as "heralds", thus most likely forerunners of the end of the Age and the birth of the new (which makes it very unlikely they're Elayne's twins, born after the Age already started... no one would really be in the mood to deny the LB marked the start of a new Age... not that it would matter anyway since the Age itself has begun whether humans acknowledge it or not.. it was to mark the beginning of the end with Rand's birth that was important to key individuals.e), they are brother and sister (literally or not) and we might surmise they fulfill their mission one way or another covertly/masked, so maybe they're heralds that go mostly unnoticed, more like forerunners than horn sounders... It sounds to me like those two Heralds are basically like incarnated Prophecy, through which direct agency The Wheel acts to make the Age spiral directly to its end first (by bringing the rebirth of the Dragon through Calian, and setting Shivan on his Hunt), then the new one comes - and Slayer/Tigraine do fit this part (even more if Nakomi is truly Tigraine).