Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[Suttree]

 So I believe she was once a dragon and when making that sacrifice and correctly doing it (unlike Lews Therin originally did) you become a sort of spirit of the pattern, never to be reborn but to guide the world in subtle ways.

 

The Dragon was merely a title given to LTT. As for different turnings, Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light time after time.

 

Interview: Apr 4th, 2001

Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

 

...

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Interview: Apr, 2001

RJ in the Netherlands - Marion Kippers (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

I liked the explanation of how the different turnings of the Wheel of Time create similar but very different tapestries for the same age—but the Dragon Reborn will always be a male soul (that was the question), just like Birgitte will always be a female soul.

[CauthonsLuck]

My theory is she was the Dragon Reborn in a past age. I've heard that the same thing seems to happen where the Dark One gets locked up, then set free, and stuff, so why couldn't the same thing that happened to Rand happen to another Dragon. It seems like Rand is able to do impossible things so it wouldn't surprise me if he never aged, so maybe Nakomi has lived for thousands of years in secret.

[elric]

i hadnt readed all the 18 pages of prior discussion in this thread, so i apology if i repeat or reopen a close issue.

 

Dirty_Bird said it first and i 90% agrea with.

i think Nakomi is the last cycle dragon.

 

my 1st theory about Nakomi was that she was a Jenn Aiel, but after MoL i believe she is a prior dragon.

 

the wheel go in a cycle : a no DO age who end in the release of the DO -> a DO influenced age who end in his recapture -> a rebuild age who end in FORGETTING the DO existed -> ano DO age...

 

i think Nakomi was the dragon in the last cycle (i dont agrea with the take care position that Dirty_Bird theorize but that my opinion :)   ),  i think she was beeing able to manifest before Avi is due to the warder connection she had with Rand and (personal opinion) the Aiel to my believe are the last dragon ppl/nation...

[BFG]

As per Suttrees post @261 the dragons soul is always male.  Additionally there's only one Champion of Light Soul, so Nakomi couldn't be the previous cycles champion of light as that would be Rand.

[elric]

may i ask where it was aid the dsragon was alway male , always as in every cycle and every age ?

 

about only 1 champion of light soul -> Rand and LTT co existed for a time and cant a prior champion soul or a tleast a speicific part of it exist OUTSIDE of the patern waiting for the new champ soul to take it place ?

[CauthonsLuck]

Well it seems like Rand has some pretty godly powers so it wouldn't be surprising if Nakomi could change the way she/he looks. 

[BFG]

 

 So I believe she was once a dragon and when making that sacrifice and correctly doing it (unlike Lews Therin originally did) you become a sort of spirit of the pattern, never to be reborn but to guide the world in subtle ways.

 

The Dragon was merely a title given to LTT. As for different turnings, Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light time after time.

 

Interview: Apr 4th, 2001

Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

 

...

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Interview: Apr, 2001

RJ in the Netherlands - Marion Kippers (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

I liked the explanation of how the different turnings of the Wheel of Time create similar but very different tapestries for the same age—but the Dragon Reborn will always be a male soul (that was the question), just like Birgitte will always be a female soul.

 

 

Requoted Sutt.  From the books I think it's all circumstantial.  Artur Hawkwing recognizes Rands soul when they meet in Falme.  The *flicker* scene in tGH 'I win again...' (this last is very circumstantial) Ishys conversation with LTT at the beginning of tEotW and philosophical musing later on about the repetitiveness of their (his and LTTs) fight.  I also don't think souls can be split (although that's also from an RJ quote)

[elric]

author words are final decrea :)

 

shame it was a really nice theory :))

 

ithink Nakomi is a person with knowlege far behind these age.

the main reason i dont accept a manifistation of the wheel is due to her talk with Avi, the wheel is neutral it will take no side in which ANT COLONY rule supreme.(even a totally evil sanchean colony).

 

i now tend to think Nakomi is either a prior age Moirain (sp?) an eternal guide and teacher of the dragon (or to seal Morcoock term) to the eternal champion.

or a Genn Aiel AS with either inverted weaves or ancient and enlighten enough to learn a new way to wield power.

[BFG]

The Jenn Aiel are a popular theory.  Verins another, although I disagree with the latter as I don't see why she'd care about the Aiel.  Nakomi's one of the more interesting things introduced in the latter books.  I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer, but it's fun to speculative.

 

I think I'm pretty comfortable that the meeting took place in TAR, which means that the questions that have to be answered are; who has access to TAR, who cares enough to try to change the Aiel, who has the knowledge to see what's likely to happen in the future and who has enough information to convince Avi that she is Aiel?  Remnants of the Jenn answer most of those with the problem of how did they survive the last hundreds of years. 

[elric]

the Jen Aiel was the only Aiel tribe with AoL AS.

 

and Aiel tradition DONT prevent channelers from  marriege and child bearing.

 

so personally i see no problem with a small Jen Aiel tribe with AoL knowledge channelers surviving .

also ruhidein (sp?) forest of crystal tar'angeril dont seem like the kind of thing u move a round on wagons so it stand to reason the Jen Aiel constructed these Tar'angeril which indicate they may have access to much better viewing of the future and past then what the prophecies provided the rest of he world.

the rason i'm still inclined to Nakomi beeing a prior cycle person /soul /reflection.. is that i get a been there done that , wive from her.

Edited October 13, 2013 by elric

[Abaddon]

Ilyena Sunhair

[GERand26]

It's pretty clear to anyone paying close attention that Nakomi is an avatar of the Creator. It's also pretty clear that this is what RJ always intended - BS and TJ didn't make this up. It was in RJ's notes. BS won't give a direct answer because he has been instructed by TJ not to

[mbuehner]

It's pretty clear to anyone paying close attention that Nakomi is an avatar of the Creator. It's also pretty clear that this is what RJ always intended - BS and TJ didn't make this up. It was in RJ's notes. BS won't give a direct answer because he has been instructed by TJ not to

Nothing about this is obvious, for anyone that has followed RJ and BS various statements on the subjects over the years.

[Orderofolde]

RJ would have said that this is another thing that is intuitively obvious.  Thankfully, judging from the poll, in this instance he was correct!  Just as the Dark One had Shadar Haran, and with the subtle "balance" theme in RJ's world, everything must have an equal opposite, therefore Nakomi, having had no background or point of view, was an avatar of the Creator much as there were two voices that Rand and the Forsaken heard.  Without Nakomi's influence, Avhienda would not have gone through the columns again to see the visions of the future, which would not have forced changes regarding the Seafolk, which would have cost them the Last Battle and likely have withheld Mat from taking command.  Butterfly effect, ripples in a pond, so forth...I myself was pleased to see it.  Too many authors I've read in traditional Fantasy/Fiction won't use divine intervention.  I just wonder if Nakomi was RJ's or BS's doing.

[BFG]

The biggest problem with Nakomi being an avatar is that RJ has said in interviews that the Creator will take no part.

 

Also, do you mean the seafolk or the aiel?

[Suttree]

The biggest problem with Nakomi being an avatar is that RJ has said in interviews that the Creator will take no part.

 

 

Indeed. RJ repeated that answer many times over. Additionally Brandon created

Nakomi based on something found buried "deep in the notes". Something as big as the creator having an avatar in direct contradiction to RJ's quotes would hardly qualify as such.

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Suttree

[GERand26]

Then what was the voice at the end of EotW, and the voice when Rand is at mouth of Shayol Ghul? You have not accounted for this, and it absolutely crushes your argument. Clearly, the Creator already has some involvement by virtue of his communication with Rand in those instances (even if the communication is rather passive).

[BFG]

Then what was the voice at the end of EotW, and the voice when Rand is at mouth of Shayol Ghul? You have not accounted for this, and it absolutely crushes your argument. Clearly, the Creator already has some involvement by virtue of his communication with Rand in those instances (even if the communication is rather passive).

 

Thus the debate. 

 

There's nothing that says it was the Creator.  For a long time the most successful argument (that I read) was that it was the DO (although there were still problems with it) but I'd argue that the voice being heard outside the cave when Rand was hidden from the DO would negate that. 

[Abaddon]

After reading through the debate, I think Nakomi is an avatar of the Creator; I don't care that Jordan or Sanderson said the Creator hasn't had any interaction with the world. (I also think it's clear from the text that the voice Rand heard outside the cave is not the Dark One so I deduce it was the Creator. I think Jordan/Sanderson are just doing some sleight-of-hand.*)

 

* It's also why I think Taim was originally going to be Demandred but the fans picked up on it so fast that Jordan felt a little butt-hurt so he re-wrote Taim's and Demandred's narrative to keep the fans guessing.

[Suttree]

* It's also why I think Taim was originally going to be Demandred but the fans picked up on it so fast that Jordan felt a little butt-hurt so he re-wrote Taim's and Demandred's narrative to keep the fans guessing.

 

RJ has stated flat out that Taim was never supposed to be Demandred. In fact he was surprised by how strongly fans thought there was a connection.

[Abaddon]

 

* It's also why I think Taim was originally going to be Demandred but the fans picked up on it so fast that Jordan felt a little butt-hurt so he re-wrote Taim's and Demandred's narrative to keep the fans guessing.

 

RJ has stated flat out that Taim was never supposed to be Demandred. In fact he was surprised by how strongly fans thought there was a connection.

 

 

:)

 

I know that's what he SAID. But authors have some pride, too. I don't believe him, haha.

[elric]

the main problem with Nakomi beeing the Creator/ Patern Avatar is her meeting with Avienda

 

why the world (creator/pattern / cosmos..) will care about 1 speicific tribe ???

 

do u play favorites with the scale in your hair/ or the ants in your backyard ... ???

 

the meeting with Avi had NO EFFECT on the great battle !!!

her vision show the great battle was WON even if she do nothing after the meeting .

 

and if u claim the creator do care in such details... please explain the existenc of any bad thing /evil empire... that exist in Rand univerce.

[Abaddon]

the main problem with Nakomi beeing the Creator/ Patern Avatar is her meeting with Avienda

 

why the world (creator/pattern / cosmos..) will care about 1 speicific tribe ???

 

do u play favorites with the scale in your hair/ or the ants in your backyard ... ???

 

the meeting with Avi had NO EFFECT on the great battle !!!

her vision show the great battle was WON even if she do nothing after the meeting .

 

and if u claim the creator do care in such details... please explain the existenc of any bad thing /evil empire... that exist in Rand univerce.

 

Not sure if you're familiar with Christianity or Judaism (as Robert Jordan was), but you'll notice in reading the Old Testament that the god of the Hebrews most assuredly played favorites with them; they were his one chosen group of ants in his backyard.

[elric]

trust me i'm QUITE FAMILIAR with the JUdaic version of god and in the Bible description of how God treated my ancestors :))))

 

 

and if u notice beeing god chosen ants -> AINT FUN :)))

"do wrong in the eye of god ---> punished" is quite a repeatable thme in he bible :)))

[Plato]

the main problem with Nakomi beeing the Creator/ Patern Avatar is her meeting with Avienda

 

why the world (creator/pattern / cosmos..) will care about 1 speicific tribe ???

 

do u play favorites with the scale in your hair/ or the ants in your backyard ... ???

 

the meeting with Avi had NO EFFECT on the great battle !!!

her vision show the great battle was WON even if she do nothing after the meeting .

 

and if u claim the creator do care in such details... please explain the existenc of any bad thing /evil empire... that exist in Rand univerce.

 

It's because RJ made Randland similar to our universe where the creator does not take an active role in the day to day.  Where-as the DO does.

 

For your final question involving an evil empire to exist: If the Creator is anything like Judeo/Christian-God, then 1. A perfect God created the heavens and earth and therefore would not interfere because it would go against his omniscience (ie, if there were a problem with the universe, He would have solved it at the creation point).  and 2. God gave man free-will, and it is man's right to do as he wills, even if it means making Aes Sedai into Damane.  Using His power to interfere with free-will would go against everything.  Even the DO had to get people to choose to be evil (except for circle 13)

 

But this is all assuming the Randland creator is similar or based on the Judeo/Christian-God (which it probably is anyway.)

 

That being said, all Nakomi did was give some good advice.  It's up to Avi to effect a change.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Plato