Logain's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Sabio]

I personally figure Cads will accept it, realizing that at this point there really is NO ONE else left who could drag the Aes Sedai into the 4th age.  Besides, Egwene had already started it, so they aren't all as worthless as she used to think.

 

The trouble is I figure that most of the Asha'man were too untrained to be worth anything in the fight, and so were left behind in the tower.  Having 1,000 members doesn't mean much if only 100 can weave fast enough to be of use.  This is the same reasoning that although the Aes Sedai had over 1,000 new novices they couldn't do anything with them during the battle, they were too untrained to be of use.

All the Asha'man were trained to do was fight.  Its anything but fighting that they will probably be weak in.  Rand told Taim he wanted weapons.

[Guest]

To me, Logain's arc was the best part of the book. I absolutely loved the ending, and I must admit I shed a tear when that woman told him her son had "the talent" and his reaction to it.

[MasterAblar]

The trouble is I figure that most of the Asha'man were too untrained to be worth anything in the fight, and so were left behind in the tower.  Having 1,000 members doesn't mean much if only 100 can weave fast enough to be of use.  This is the same reasoning that although the Aes Sedai had over 1,000 new novices they couldn't do anything with them during the battle, they were too untrained to be of use.

 

 

Except Asha'man training isn't Aes Sedai training. Like Androl said to Pevara, the Asha'man are pushed from the very beginning to their very limits. The taint wasn't the only danger in Asha'man training. While you have a point for the latest recruits perhaps those in the last month or so, all the rest, the vast majority, could be sent to fight. There were plenty of Asha'man of only soldier rank sent to DW and later to Illian. And even the latest recruits could at least be sent to Mayenne to help with healing by linking.

 

I have noticed that in aMoL, when Lyrelle (who is now for me in strong contention as the non BA Aes Sedai that I dislike the most) enters the BT, Androl mentions Asha'man of soldier and Dedicated rank who are outside the BT at that time. Hard to say how many Asha'man he's talking about though.

[NitroS]

 

what a waste of space logain has been.for 3 books i waited for bated breath and he disappointed. His glory was pointless because eventually people would turn around to male channellers since saidin has been cleansed and aes sedai and ashamen were already bonding.His glory should have been the first of new raised male aes sedai and leader of all channellers by killing of taim.

curious to hear how you think logain was going to defeat taim when he had a sarangreal and logain did not. He got stomped by demandred when he had a circle of 37.

[Charred Knight]

 

 

what a waste of space logain has been.for 3 books i waited for bated breath and he disappointed. His glory was pointless because eventually people would turn around to male channellers since saidin has been cleansed and aes sedai and ashamen were already bonding.His glory should have been the first of new raised male aes sedai and leader of all channellers by killing of taim.

curious to hear how you think logain was going to defeat taim when he had a sarangreal and logain did not. He got stomped by demandred when he had a circle of 37.

Working together with a group of Asha'man and Aes Sedai showing that Logain had leadership qualities and valied teamwork while all Taim cared about was power.  Its certainly beats Egwene pulling off a new weave and then defeating Taim in a battle of power especially because Egwene had no connection to the Black Tower subplot that Taim was a part of.

[PhoenixUK]

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

 

I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. 

[BFG]

 

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

 

I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. 

 

I disagree that Androl stole his thunder.  Although (like most other people) I was expecting some sort of showdown with Taim, or maybe one of the other Forsaken, I am actually infinately happier that his 'glory' came not because of his strength in the power, but because of his strength of personality, because despite his attempts to teach himself that power was what mattered, he couldn't turn his back on civilians that were in trouble.  I found it to be a strong arc, and one of the best in the book.  Adding any of the stuff that Androl did would just detract from what he actually did that was so important, the entire BT arc was summed up for me in one sentance when the woman referred to it as a Talent and not a Curse and that was because of Logains actions, because he led the BT there to help. 

[Charred Knight]

 

 

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

 

I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. 

 

I disagree that Androl stole his thunder.  Although (like most other people) I was expecting some sort of showdown with Taim, or maybe one of the other Forsaken, I am actually infinately happier that his 'glory' came not because of his strength in the power, but because of his strength of personality, because despite his attempts to teach himself that power was what mattered, he couldn't turn his back on civilians that were in trouble.  I found it to be a strong arc, and one of the best in the book.  Adding any of the stuff that Androl did would just detract from what he actually did that was so important, the entire BT arc was summed up for me in one sentance when the woman referred to it as a Talent and not a Curse and that was because of Logains actions, because he led the BT there to help. 

But what Asha'man couldn't do what Logain did (well at least one alive and not Turned)?    I mean how does this stand out to the average Randland person?  Is anyone going to reminesce and think back to the time that Egwene Alvere wiped out all the Sharan channelers and a foresaken in one blow or the duel Lan had with Demandred and then someone says "Those were nothing remember when Logain lead 5 Asha'man to save a bunch of refugees"?  No one is going to say that because its not impressive.  The Asha'man did it all the time throughout the series.  I dont see why Sanderson made it a big deal when Logain did it.

[BFG]

 

 

 

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

 

I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. 

 

I disagree that Androl stole his thunder.  Although (like most other people) I was expecting some sort of showdown with Taim, or maybe one of the other Forsaken, I am actually infinately happier that his 'glory' came not because of his strength in the power, but because of his strength of personality, because despite his attempts to teach himself that power was what mattered, he couldn't turn his back on civilians that were in trouble.  I found it to be a strong arc, and one of the best in the book.  Adding any of the stuff that Androl did would just detract from what he actually did that was so important, the entire BT arc was summed up for me in one sentance when the woman referred to it as a Talent and not a Curse and that was because of Logains actions, because he led the BT there to help. 

But what Asha'man couldn't do what Logain did (well at least one alive and not Turned)?    I mean how does this stand out to the average Randland person?  Is anyone going to reminesce and think back to the time that Egwene Alvere wiped out all the Sharan channelers and a foresaken in one blow or the duel Lan had with Demandred and then someone says "Those were nothing remember when Logain lead 5 Asha'man to save a bunch of refugees"?  No one is going to say that because its not impressive.  The Asha'man did it all the time throughout the series.  I dont see why Sanderson made it a big deal when Logain did it.

 

 

Except that clearly it's not a case of substitute character A with B and the results the same...

 

Compare two similar situations.  Trollocs attack relatively defenceless civilians, fortunately there's a channeler/s nearby who helps resist, destroy and drive off those trollocs.  They then work tirelessly to do what they can to help the survivors.  In one case the villagers initial reaction is to form a mob to try to drive Moiraine out of the village, the seconds reaction is to praise and thank the channelers involved.  Clearly not everyone can do what Logain does and get that same reaction (in the same way that nobody else could get the same reaction that Moiraine did when reciting the prophecy at the FoM).  And we know Moiraine as one of the better people working towards the greater good, but she still had that reaction at the beginning.

 

Additionally I'm not sure that you can say that the Ashaman did 'do it all the time'.  Every other example of their actions that I can think of has been at a distance, removed from the people.  Dumais Wells was impressive, but the average person knows nothing about it, same for the Damona Campaign, Perrins attack (with Ashaman) on the Shaido/Trollocs...  Overall a normal person will have very little contact with a Channeler of any description (this is why we start off with the reaction to Moiraine in 2R) 

 

And you can bet that those villagers are going to be saying exactly that.

 

Finally, although I don't know whose responsible for what, but I don't believe that RJ ever intended for Logain to destroy the Forsaken, find the seals etc.  According to reports most of the things that Androl accomplished were written as notes for a Ashaman at the Tower to accomplish.  Since Logain was a developed character if RJ intended for him to do them, he'd have written so in his notes.  I don't believe Harriet would allow BS to take things from Logian and give them to Androl (I may be wrong, but I doubt it), so regardless of what Androl did, Logain ended up exactly where he was supposed to. 

 

It's also possible that the 'glory' refers to something that may be coming...  Unless we've had it confirmed otherwise ir seems likely that 'First amongst Vermin' refers to Logain as he's the one that breaks the seals (lifts hand to free him...)  If so it implies 'great' things to come.

[Suttree]

 

According to reports most of the things that Androl accomplished were written as notes for a Ashaman at the Tower to accomplish.

Do you have a source for that BFG? We do know Androl was given to Brandon as his own character to play with and his role was greatly expanded. I've never seen that all he did was to be attributed to none ashaman. Would like to check that quote out.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

According to reports most of the things that Androl accomplished were written as notes for a Ashaman at the Tower to accomplish.

Do you have a source for that BFG? We do know Androl was given to Brandon as his own character to play with and his role was greatly expanded. I've never seen that all he did was to be attributed to none ashaman. Would like to check that quote out.

 

I don't have the quote handy, but I do recall that Brandon said that there were things that needed to be done that were not attributed to any character yet, which he gave Androl. 

 

I don't think he actually took anything away from any main characters, but some of the things could have been done by other Asha'man or characters. 

[Hagazussa]

First of all I do not agree that Logain was winy, hell the man have been through things that would make most other crack like an egg and he survived, what do you guys expect him to be thrilled and happy? First Logain begun to channel and had the madness to deal with and the knowledge that very soon he would either rot and die while he was still alive or go completely insane, but he managed to stay reasonably sane, the he was captured and gentled something that most consider a fate worse than death and he survived, and then he is tortured badly and attempted turned. Also as we read what Taim did to Logain played strongly into the trauma he have after what the Aes Sedai did to him, he was kept shielded and he actually found that worse than the pain of the attempted turning as it reminded him of loosing the ability to channel. It is like if someone have been brutally gang raped a few years ago and is then not only tortured but put in a position that strongly reminds them of the event.

 

I have never agreed with the idea some what that whenever a character is showing emotion, and especially negative emotion they are winy, and especially not when that character have a good reason to be a bit dark, I think that add to their character not distract from it. I mean from his point of view Logain is afraid every time he releases the Source, he is afraid it will not be there the next time he reaches for it. It is not like Nynaeve heals him and boom the memories and traumas of his gentling vanish. I mean most channelers are afraid even of the words that mean severing and it is said all have a fear deep inside of them that it could happen to them. Logain have been though it, is it any wonder that he is a bit on edge? In many ways Logain's reaction is like the one many who have been attacked o raped have that they become obsessed with home security or in other ways protecting themselves so they ca never be victims again. Logain's role in the last book is very much about him overcoming his traumas and rising above it, sure he will probably always be a glory seeker, that is part of his nature, he is arrogant, he likes power and so on, but really what he do when he gives up on that sa'angreal which he want so that no one could take to Power from him again is that he overcome the trauma caused him in the first book and rise above it to do what was right and that is rather powerful symbolism.

 

Now I was a bit disappointed about there not being a big Taim/Logain fight since I am a geek and I wanted to see a epic mage duel between the two, and I do think many is disappointed that he did not really get that big crowing moment of awesome that many had hoped for. However as for glory, I guess one have to ask oneself what glory is. Logain is the one who in many ways ends up clearing male channelers name, sure there will probably still be straggling prejudices but in part because of him the ball have gotten rolling so male channelers would no longer be feared and hated. If that young boy he saved near the end of the book turns out to be able to channel and he go to the Black Tower to train the horror men like him suffered for three thousand years would be nothing more than stories and give it a few more generations and young channeling boys will sit scaring one another after bedtime with stories of what Aes Sedai used to do to male channelers without really believing it since for them channeling would be a celebrated gift that allowed them to live for centuries, help others and it generally make their lives better in every way. In many ways a legacy like that is far more glory than ass kicking someone big and powerful is, and yes I am aware that Logain did not do it on his own, that he choose to save those refugees rather than give into his fear and go after greater power play a huge part in male channelers becoming accepted in society again. Remember at the start of the books male channelers where something that mothers used to scare their children with, they where shunned and hunted to the point of neighbors turning on Owyn after the Red Ajah had gentled him, they where hated and then at the end of it a mother hopes that her son will have the talent, that he will be able to channel one day, and that is quite a legacy.

Now as for Androl I think he is a sweet character and I like hearing about him, I have no problem with what he do, my only problem with it is that I had hoped that the last book would focus even more on the original main characters seen in the first few books and less on characters that become important later, now off course they figure prominently to but I would have liked to see more of them, but Androl being a bit of an over achiever I thought was sweet, I like stories of the underdog showing everyone what he is made of, and I thought it was awesome when this man who would have been to weak a channeler to become an Aes Sedai if he had been a woman actually attacking Taim to try to help his friends where awesome, he knew he could not win and that Taim would most likely just rip him to shreds, but doing that show real guts and where very entertaining to read.

 

Now back to Logain. I think that his storyline overall in the books is great though I think he is a bit under utilized, that we have a main character who do not get one point of view chapter as far as I know until the last book is a bit strange and I do feel that the character had more potential than what was used, but all in all he is one of my favorite characters and I think that his storyline worked very well.

 

One more thing before I end this way to long post. I really like that Logain did not win against Demandred since that outcome was so unexpected. usually in fantasy we have the hero come in, take some licks from the bad guy before defeating him at the 11 hour, that Logain got his ass handed to him and had to flee was so unexpected that it makes it a great scene, and that he then give up on his search for power and go to save refugees makes it even better, it is not what I expected to happen and it is a good plot twist I think.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

When I said that Androl stole Logain's thunder, I didn't mean he did something specific that Logain should have done. But, look at the story. Logain does very little. Just the screen time alone - to me - shows Androl shouldering Logain out of the picture. I'm even fine with believing that saving the refugees was just the first step in Logain coming into his glory. He just had very little to do with the book. I can accept an argument that even from RJ's point of view many storylines wouldn't be wrapped up in the series so if I don't get to see what happens for logain to come into his in this book I was never promised that I would get to see it, etc.

 

When I read a lot of complaints about the books, even if I disagree with specific ones, I understand many of them. Usually, when you read a book or a series PLOTLINES ARE SUMMED UP AND COMPLETED BY THE END OF THE SERIES. Not so in the Wheel of Time series. This is always the way it was going to be, even if RJ lived to finish this series. I respect his choice, it does lend a bit of realism to the series. In life quite often things aren't wrapped up in a pretty package. However, even knowing this as a reader there's a sense of loss or being cheated after all the time and energy we've committed to reading and waiting for plotlines come to their fruition.

[BFG]

Much to my surprise I actually found something again, although it doesn't say quite what I remember. 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

 

 

Interview: Jan 9th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Jhirrad (Paraphrased)                                             

                                            Question                                            

Is there a character you took in a different direction from what Jordan had intended?

                                            Brandon Sanderson                                          

In terms of a character, and what would happen to them ultimately, no, not really. However, there were times when some things had to be adjusted, specifically some plot points, in order to make the narrative as a whole flow better. Brandon did mention that he wanted a character that he felt was his own, which he got to do the most development on. That character became Androl. A lot of what Androl did were things which Jordan said had to happen. Brandon picked Androl to do them, and gave the character his own touch more than any other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 9th, 2013

Skokie Q&A (Verbatim)                                             

                                            Question                                            

Was there a character that you took in a different direction than Robert Jordan had originally intended?

                                            Brandon Sanderson                                            

Not specifically against his wishes. If it was in the notes, talking about a character...one of our first requirements, and I put it on myself on this, was to avoid going in different a direction from Robert Jordan with anything, specifically because I didn't want these books to become about me. I wanted them to remain the Wheel of Time. Now, I had to be nudged by Harriet at several points early on. She would tell me, you have to change some of these things. You do have to be willing to write the book as it needs to be written; Robert Jordan wouldn't have stuck to this outline exactly, and if you did stick to it exactly, it would feel like it doesn't have any life to it.

And so, there are times, when I was working, and mostly these are plot things—I would say, "You know what, we need to change this." An example of this is in The Gathering Storm, there's a scene—it's not too bad; it's not a big spoiler [laughter]—but there are several scenes where Egwene is having dinner with the Amyrlin. Well, that was originally in Robert Jordan's notes as one scene, and I split it to two scenes, where there's a dinner, it breaks, and then we come back, and I put some things in between because with the narrative flow of that sequence, it felt more powerful for me to work with it that way. I didn't remove any of the things that Robert Jordan said to have happen, and used several of his scenes that he'd written to construct those, but in that case, I felt that moving it around like that made for a better book. And so that's the sort of thing I would change.

I will say that, early on, when I first met with them, I did say, "I would like to have a character that I can just kind of do whatever I want with," so that I have, you know...it was kind of, maybe hubristic of me or whatever—I wanted to do that, I'm like, "Can I have one to play with? I want an Asha'man to play with." And it was actually Maria who suggested Androl, and said "Go look at him; there's not a lot written about him. The personality, Robert Jordan doesn't have much written down for who he is, and he seems like he's well-poised to do this. That would be a very good one." So Androl, almost everything that's happening with him, Robert Jordan didn't say "Do it with him." There are things I have him doing that Robert Jordan said, in this notes, "This has to happen." But I specifically took Androl as a character and went places with him.

 

 

 

I guess it depends on which of the statements you want to give emphasis to.  I don't believe that BS would choose to take certain plot points from 1 character and give them to another.  But in this case, I feel that the resolution of Logains arc backs it up.  If Logain had defeated Demandred in a OP battle (overcoming the power difference somehow), or had killed Taim or found the seals, then it just confuses the fact that his 'glory' was the rehabilitation of the Tower.

 

It's entirely possible that Androl took the accomplishments of several (undesignated) Ashaman and thus ended up with more credit than any other Ashaman would have got under RJ, but for me that doesn't detract from the things Logain accomplished.

 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I actually don't mind that Logain didn't destroy a Forsaken. He just didn't seem to have much to do in the story at all. And the refugee saving thing felt a bit like a tack on to do something for him.

[Gisli]

 

 

 

I liked Logain for the most part. Just started reread TEOTW, when he's laughing and regal even when shielded and in a cage in Caemlyn. He managed to cling to life after being gentled, and was clever enough to go along with the Aes Sedai plans, and then to take his chances and get to the Black Tower. He stuck by them and was ready to fight the Last Battle. 

 

Then he basically did very little. He became an empty character for the entire book while Androl stole the limelight. It should have been him vs Taim, after all that build up. It was a v disappointing ending to his arc. I guess his glory will have to be in the future which we will never get to see. 

 

I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. 

 

I disagree that Androl stole his thunder.  Although (like most other people) I was expecting some sort of showdown with Taim, or maybe one of the other Forsaken, I am actually infinately happier that his 'glory' came not because of his strength in the power, but because of his strength of personality, because despite his attempts to teach himself that power was what mattered, he couldn't turn his back on civilians that were in trouble.  I found it to be a strong arc, and one of the best in the book.  Adding any of the stuff that Androl did would just detract from what he actually did that was so important, the entire BT arc was summed up for me in one sentance when the woman referred to it as a Talent and not a Curse and that was because of Logains actions, because he led the BT there to help. 

But what Asha'man couldn't do what Logain did (well at least one alive and not Turned)?    I mean how does this stand out to the average Randland person?  Is anyone going to reminesce and think back to the time that Egwene Alvere wiped out all the Sharan channelers and a foresaken in one blow or the duel Lan had with Demandred and then someone says "Those were nothing remember when Logain lead 5 Asha'man to save a bunch of refugees"?  No one is going to say that because its not impressive.  The Asha'man did it all the time throughout the series.  I dont see why Sanderson made it a big deal when Logain did it.

 

Logain's role was not become a hero of the TG like Egwene. He is the leader of the BT (everybody regards him so) who needs to find their place in the new world. He will get his glory for this task, not for his accomplishment in the TG as everybody (probably himself) expected.

Saving civilians is very important from three different reasons.

1. He had his epiphany which necessary for his task.

2. He has started to rehabilitate the male channelers in eyes of common people. Curse-Talent

3. As he said in this scene the BT always protects (I don't remember the exact quote), in other words he found a reason (first from the many) why the existence of the BT is important, what will it do in the future.

[Gisli]

 

Much to my surprise I actually found something again, although it doesn't say quite what I remember. 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

 

 

Interview: Jan 9th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Jhirrad (Paraphrased)                                             

                                            Question                                            

Is there a character you took in a different direction from what Jordan had intended?

                                            Brandon Sanderson                                          

In terms of a character, and what would happen to them ultimately, no, not really. However, there were times when some things had to be adjusted, specifically some plot points, in order to make the narrative as a whole flow better. Brandon did mention that he wanted a character that he felt was his own, which he got to do the most development on. That character became Androl. A lot of what Androl did were things which Jordan said had to happen. Brandon picked Androl to do them, and gave the character his own touch more than any other.

 

 

 

 

 

quote class="ipsBlockquote">

 

Interview: Jan 9th, 2013

Skokie Q&A (Verbatim)                                             

                                            Question                                            

Was there a character that you took in a different direction than Robert Jordan had originally intended?

                                            Brandon Sanderson                                            

Not specifically against his wishes. If it was in the notes, talking about a character...one of our first requirements, and I put it on myself on this, was to avoid going in different a direction from Robert Jordan with anything, specifically because I didn't want these books to become about me. I wanted them to remain the Wheel of Time. Now, I had to be nudged by Harriet at several points early on. She would tell me, you have to change some of these things. You do have to be willing to write the book as it needs to be written; Robert Jordan wouldn't have stuck to this outline exactly, and if you did stick to it exactly, it would feel like it doesn't have any life to it.

And so, there are times, when I was working, and mostly these are plot things—I would say, "You know what, we need to change this." An example of this is in The Gathering Storm, there's a scene—it's not too bad; it's not a big spoiler [laughter]—but there are several scenes where Egwene is having dinner with the Amyrlin. Well, that was originally in Robert Jordan's notes as one scene, and I split it to two scenes, where there's a dinner, it breaks, and then we come back, and I put some things in between because with the narrative flow of that sequence, it felt more powerful for me to work with it that way. I didn't remove any of the things that Robert Jordan said to have happen, and used several of his scenes that he'd written to construct those, but in that case, I felt that moving it around like that made for a better book. And so that's the sort of thing I would change.

I will say that, early on, when I first met with them, I did say, "I would like to have a character that I can just kind of do whatever I want with," so that I have, you know...it was kind of, maybe hubristic of me or whatever—I wanted to do that, I'm like, "Can I have one to play with? I want an Asha'man to play with." And it was actually Maria who suggested Androl, and said "Go look at him; there's not a lot written about him. The personality, Robert Jordan doesn't have much written down for who he is, and he seems like he's well-poised to do this. That would be a very good one." So Androl, almost everything that's happening with him, Robert Jordan didn't say "Do it with him." There are things I have him doing that Robert Jordan said, in this notes, "This has to happen." But I specifically took Androl as a character and went places with him.

 

I guess it depends on which of the statements you want to give emphasis to.  I don't believe that BS would choose to take certain plot points from 1 character and give them to another.  But in this case, I feel that the resolution of Logains arc backs it up.  If Logain had defeated Demandred in a OP battle (overcoming the power difference somehow), or had killed Taim or found the seals, then it just confuses the fact that his 'glory' was the rehabilitation of the Tower.

 

It's entirely possible that Androl took the accomplishments of several (undesignated) Ashaman and thus ended up with more credit than any other Ashaman would have got under RJ, but for me that doesn't detract from the things Logain accomplished.

 

 

"It's entirely possible that Androl took the accomplishments of several (undesignated) Ashaman and thus ended up with more credit than any other Ashaman would have got under RJ"

 

It is my problem with him. He became too dominant even compared with the main heros especially for a practically unknown character. Although I don't like Narisma since the WT (Merise!), but I wouldn't have minded him in this role because at least he had had some foreshadowing (at least we thought so). The best solution would probably have been to choose two Ashaman (one for the BT plot + one for recovering the seals) for Androl's tasks.

[PhoenixUK]

I dont think Logain should have defeated Demandred, but defeating Taim seemed pretty sensible for him, most of his recent arc has been about trying to survive in the BT under taim's growing dictatorship and the splitting of the Tower between them. Egwene got to reunite the WT, why couldnt it show Logain as reclaiming the Black?

 

All we saw of him was him saving a few refugees. Maybe again it was a time issue, there just wasnt enough space to show him growing into this glory, but i guess we just have to be satisfied that he is going to focus on using the Asha'man to truly be guardians and help ordinary humans, rather than the emphasis of them being nothing more than weapons for the Last Battle. But on the whole, that is what all their training focused on. How many weaves do they even know beyond killing, healing battle wounds or travelling?

 

He also got v little time in the book as a whole, whereas Androl became Sanderson's pet character and took up a lot of the book. In some ways this was necessary i guess, as it shows that an ashaman and aes sedai can truly work together, neither in dominant control as the holder of the Bond, but as co partners, using the bond equally to work together rather than to control each other. Also it was amusing that androls skill was of far more use than all of Logains brute strength in saidin. 

[Charred Knight]

Logain's role was not become a hero of the TG like Egwene. He is the leader of the BT (everybody regards him so) who needs to find their place in the new world. He will get his glory for this task, not for his accomplishment in the TG as everybody (probably himself) expected.

Saving civilians is very important from three different reasons.

1. He had his epiphany which necessary for his task.

2. He has started to rehabilitate the male channelers in eyes of common people. Curse-Talent

3. As he said in this scene the BT always protects (I don't remember the exact quote), in other words he found a reason (first from the many) why the existence of the BT is important, what will it do in the future.

 

Except he does nothing to actually earn that leadership, his given leadership of the Black Tower by Androl, to put this in comparison this would have been like if the White Tower division had been ended by Reiko sneaking into the White Tower throwing Elaida off of it and then the White Tower Aes Sedai just announcing that Egwene Al'vere was the new Amyrlin.  If Sanderson had wrote that people would have rioted and said that Egwene Al'vere had been made to look like an idiot.  Yet its perfectly fine for Logain to flat out lose the Black Tower civil war, get nearly his entire group turned, get rescued, and then have some no name do the actual work that Logain was to incompetent to do. 

 

We are told that Logain will become some great leader we are never shown that Logain is a great leader (in fact as I pointed out the guy is written to be an incompetent leader).   Logain may be a nice guy deep down but he lacks the charisma, strength and intelligence (at least when written by Sanderson) to be a leader.

[Axon]

Logain should have defeated Taim or Dem.  Lan killing Demandred was preposterous.  It's practically Lan killing Rand.

[Gisli]

 

Logain's role was not become a hero of the TG like Egwene. He is the leader of the BT (everybody regards him so) who needs to find their place in the new world. He will get his glory for this task, not for his accomplishment in the TG as everybody (probably himself) expected.

Saving civilians is very important from three different reasons.

1. He had his epiphany which necessary for his task.

2. He has started to rehabilitate the male channelers in eyes of common people. Curse-Talent

3. As he said in this scene the BT always protects (I don't remember the exact quote), in other words he found a reason (first from the many) why the existence of the BT is important, what will it do in the future.

 

Except he does nothing to actually earn that leadership, his given leadership of the Black Tower by Androl, to put this in comparison this would have been like if the White Tower division had been ended by Reiko sneaking into the White Tower throwing Elaida off of it and then the White Tower Aes Sedai just announcing that Egwene Al'vere was the new Amyrlin.  If Sanderson had wrote that people would have rioted and said that Egwene Al'vere had been made to look like an idiot.  Yet its perfectly fine for Logain to flat out lose the Black Tower civil war, get nearly his entire group turned, get rescued, and then have some no name do the actual work that Logain was to incompetent to do. 

 

We are told that Logain will become some great leader we are never shown that Logain is a great leader (in fact as I pointed out the guy is written to be an incompetent leader).   Logain may be a nice guy deep down but he lacks the charisma, strength and intelligence (at least when written by Sanderson) to be a leader.

 

Logain has a great charisma, everybody is following him despite losing Black Tower civil war against Taim and he also had the srength to resist against the Turning. 

Nevertheless I agree with you, I wouldn't be very comfortable to obey to such leader, either.

Sanderson could have portrayed Logain as a relatively competent leader even with his failings, but he has messed up it, probably because he concentrated too much to his character, Androl.

I like his internal struggle and his grey character, but his arc could have executed much better.

 

PhoenixUK

"Also it was amusing that androls skill was of far more use than all of Logains brute strength in saidin."

 

It is clear from his fight with Demandred that Logain's skills are below average (he doesn't even recognize most of the weave Dem used). It is totally understandable, there was no way for him (or for an average Ashaman) to learn a much about the saidin. Only Taim, Flinn (healing), maybe Narishma (balefire etc.)  got some tutoring from Demandred, Aginor and Rand, respectively.

Androl is lucky, because he has an unique skill set and opportunity to experiment with it. Nevertless it is annoying that only his skill were developed enough. I could mention at least a dozen known talents which could have achieved the same results, but there is no Ashaman who seem to possess them or learn how to use them properly.

It was Sanderson's way to power up his pet character and to ensure that he he became a major player. For me it is little bit artificial and doesn't really fit to the earlier books.

[XXX]

Andrlol can make gateways but in a face to face fight with a stronger channeler he would get blasted becuase they would easily cut his gateway weave before it formed just like what Demandred did to him on the battlefield.

 

Calling Logian skills as average after a fight with Demandred is hardly fair. Other than Rand no other person on the light side either male or female side would have been able to face Demandred. Egwene in a moment of clarity(rare for her big head) even thinks about that when she decided that she would not make her own 72 person circle and face him on the field.

[Charred Knight]

Andrlol can make gateways but in a face to face fight with a stronger channeler he would get blasted becuase they would easily cut his gateway weave before it formed just like what Demandred did to him on the battlefield.

 

Calling Logian skills as average after a fight with Demandred is hardly fair. Other than Rand no other person on the light side either male or female side would have been able to face Demandred. Egwene in a moment of clarity(rare for her big head) even thinks about that when she decided that she would not make her own 72 person circle and face him on the field.

and yet Androl was able to force both Taim and Graendal to run in fear.  I think he could easily have killed Demandred if he had duplicated what he did at the tower and just started to have thousands of Sharan drop to their death especially effective if he placed the other gateway above the other Sharans, just drop about a hundred sharans on Demandred that should easily have killed him.

[XXX]

Just because Taim and Grendral did not want to fight at that point does not mean they could not beat him. Demandred cut his weaves.So there was no way to form the gateway in the first place.Androl had to run for his life.