Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[woomia]

I thought Rand's duel with the DO was pretty cool. But I had sided with Moridin. I thought the DO's intent was was oblivion. Through out the series RJ had always always went with equal and opposite forces, you saw it all the time so the Creator was creation then hands off and the Dark One would be hands ons and destruction. I guess Moridin and I guessed the wrong opposite.

[bleh]

I think its evident that everyone who cares deeply about Rand will come to suspect that he turned out okay eventually.  Nynaeve suspects something, Cadsuane figured it out (despite this being a Brandon addition, I liked it), and the girls are not even attempting to act like they're grieving.  For all real purposes, Lan and Moiraine and some of the other characters aren't Rand's personal friends and his association with them is over now that he's played his role as the Dragon Reborn.

 

Tam is the only one left entirely in the dark, but I'd like to think that Rand will let him know first and foremost at some point in the future.  Mat and Perrin don't seem to care though which I felt was a little odd about the ending.

 

My biggest issue with the ending is that "Moridin" just gets up and walks away and nobody even notices except Cadsuane, and she doesn't care because she looks in his eyes and has a hunch that it's rand.  Seriously?  Everyone has to know that it's Moridin, because Nynaeve and Moiraine know.  I really can't imagine that Rand carries an almost dead person out of the bore and everyone just ignores it.  Someone has to have asked who it was and I can't imagine that Nynaeve and Moiraine just said "Oh, just some guy we found in the bore, don't worry about it".  They weren't in on the body swap, so they don't know Rand is going to use him as a disguise.  So why is Moridin's body not guarded?  He wasn't dead, only mostly dead.  Just because Nynaeve and Flinn couldn't heal him doesn't mean one of the surviving Forsaken/dreadlords/darkfriends couldn't have stolen him and healed him somehow.

 

Now that Moridin/Rand has gotten up and walked away with only Cadsuane noticing (and his 3 girls who know what's going on and can sense him through the bond), she doesn't do anything?  Even given she might think Rand deserves a break, is she really going to do nothing when there's a chance it's one of the forsaken walking away?  Maybe she trusts her instincts/hunches that much, but the whole scene just seems off to me.

[bleh]

double post

[garryturk]

I think its evident that everyone who cares deeply about Rand will come to suspect that he turned out okay eventually.  Nynaeve suspects something, Cadsuane figured it out (despite this being a Brandon addition, I liked it), and the girls are not even attempting to act like they're grieving.  For all real purposes, Lan and Moiraine and some of the other characters aren't Rand's personal friends and his association with them is over now that he's played his role as the Dragon Reborn.

 

Tam is the only one left entirely in the dark, but I'd like to think that Rand will let him know first and foremost at some point in the future.  Mat and Perrin don't seem to care though which I felt was a little odd about the ending.

Is it confirmed that Cadsuane POV is Brandon's doing or was that inference from the style?

 

My problem with Rand riding off for a care-free life of exploration really was the casual attitude as his grieving father is standing broken over his funeral pyre and the potential extension of that into the  possible abandonment of his children.  I know he suspected one or more of the 3 women would follow him but he really was pretty sanguine about it.  The other poster who mentioned it was him "letting go" is a possible explanation but I have problems aligning this attitude with some of his thought process in VOG where he realised that it was all about caring.

 

The 3 women doing such a poor job of feigning grief was also strange.  That suggested that maybe this was all about just hiding Rand's survival from the world at large and that after some time away he would quietly re-engage with those he cared about.  Because if Nynaeve and Cadsuane smelled a rat someone else in the inner circle would.  So again, why not tell Tam?

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago.  He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived.  Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder.  And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

[pilgram]

Can someone tell me do those missing days from Rands’ ToM storyline from Ebou Dar to Maradon get addressed in AMOL? Is there any explanation for what was he doing then? Flashbacks or mentions in conversations? Anything?

[Ialnyien]

So, my understanding is that Rand no longer needs to channel. If i remember correctly the children he has with Aviendha are the same. Does this not allude to at least them meeting again?

[flinn]

So, my understanding is that Rand no longer needs to channel. If i remember correctly the children he has with Aviendha are the same. Does this not allude to at least them meeting again?

 His children do need to channel, but they are constantly holding saidin/saidar. They dont have to reach for it or enter the void. The are born with it while others dont start until puberty. 

 Rand no longer can channel, he was burnt out. He seems to be able to effect the pattern. He thought of his pipe being lit, pattern wove it lit.

[buddhatanker]

 

I'm having trouble grasping a lot of the end.

 

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell Nynaeve, Tam, Mat, or Perrin and abandons his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Now, into what happened with the dark one itself.  I agree with the 'world without evil' being a horrible place.  Rand explains this by telling the Dark One that he never wins, because only the fight for something you believe in can bring out the best in people.  That implies that the best of everybody can't exist without the DO.  There would be nothing to fight for, nothing to challenge peace and make people treasure it.  So that makes sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense is Rand's line about the Dark One never having been the issue, Alivia's role, the pipe and the finalization of the body swap.  Here are two theories from me, both somewhat crazy, I'll admit:

 

1.  Androl and Pevara gave us more insight than we'd think.  While they were linked, they entered each others' consciousness.  They became ONE PERSON.  Pevara's POV says she was able to pull back into her own body afterwards.  Is that what Rand and Moridin did, except Rand intentionally pulled back into Moridin's body instead?

 

2.  The DO exists outside the pattern and is a constant force for evil, but isn't necessarily bad.  He's like gravity, he's just contantly present.  The true source of upsetting balance is the Dragon Reborn himself.  LTT inspried many of the Forsaken.  He rejected Mieren, he was a source of fixation for Elan, Demandred seems to be completely unhinged by being 'nearly LTT'.  Sammael and Bel'al are both known to have been jealous of his power.  LTT's Aes Sedai were the ones who drilled into the Bore, craving more power.

 

We see a repeat of this in Rand.  Everywhere he goes, he breaks ties, causes war, incites jealousy, brings out both the best AND worst of the people around him.  In TGS he goes mad and nearly kills everybody atop Dragonmount, proving he could be either the destroyer or the savior.

 

This could explain why Rand wants the world to go on without the Dragon.  He WANTS the dragon to be dead in everybody's mind, because so long as he exists, the threat could come again.  The Dragon is the problem and always has been.

 

---------------------

 

Thoughts?  I know it sort of flies in the face of the good vs evil mantra this series seems to hold, but it did occur to me after putting the book down.

I like you theroies, I think maybe the dragon is reborn to set the pattern right when its needed.  My theory was if everyone htinks Rand is dead he can have some piece and quiet finally.  If they knew he was alive he wouldn't be able to go anywhere without people flocking around him etc....  As the worlds savior people would be wanting him to do all sort of things and I think you are right about where ever he goes trouble might follow.  The dragon would still be a target for any DF left out there and so would his ladies.  Now everyone can live is relative safety.   I think he just wants a nice peaceul quiet life.  I don't understand his casual view on wonder if any of the women will follow him.  Considering one is caring his children you would think he would have some concern.

While it seems as if Rand IS looking forward to a little R&R his main motivation is probably The Dragon's Peace. It is clearly stated in aMoL that the one thing he wanted more than anything else was for the people of Randland to honor his sacrifice by not engaging in petty border disputes, political machinations at the expense of others for personal gain or war. If he was going to save the world, then dammnit, everyone else could at least act like decent human beings even if he had to force it upon them. And he did just that. The Monarchs of Randland promised to eschew all these actions, formally and legally, upon pain of Aiel retribution when they signed the Dragon's Peace. His bargaining chip was that he would sacrifice his life to save them all. Obviously Rand did not die and if that were to be known to the signatories how long would it be before one of them decided that if Rand didn't keep up his side of the bargain, why should they? Which is more important? Rand and his buddies hanging out? Or the Pax Dragonis, or whatever, that seems relatively likely to emerge after the smoke clears from the world?

[Gisli]

It was one of the weakest Arc for me.

First I don't like the outcome of Rand's duel with the DO. I can't believe that without DO there is no evil (and free will) in the world, for me it doesn't seems to be the right conclusion. I understand your ( Jordan's) explanation, but it is a little bit weak for me. Furthermore I wonder what would happen if somebody kill off both the Creator and DO? How does the humanity fare without the ability to do evil and good deeds? Finally it is little bit farfetched that a mortal could really kill a such fundamental "deity" (the source of the evil in the world of WOT) at all.

 

Second I also agree those who said that realistically the women can't hide Rand's survival for a long time. It is not extremely difficult to find out, especially for the "inner circle" after their behaviour. And how will they keep in contact with him without further suspicion?

Furthermore what about Morridin's body? Its dissapearance should cause a worldwide search for it. We are speaking about a Forsaken who escaped somehow!

Finally I don't understand Alivia's role about it. Why did she involved it at all? Min's viewing isn't enogh reason for it.

[buddhatanker]

 

I think its evident that everyone who cares deeply about Rand will come to suspect that he turned out okay eventually.  Nynaeve suspects something, Cadsuane figured it out (despite this being a Brandon addition, I liked it), and the girls are not even attempting to act like they're grieving.  For all real purposes, Lan and Moiraine and some of the other characters aren't Rand's personal friends and his association with them is over now that he's played his role as the Dragon Reborn.

 

Tam is the only one left entirely in the dark, but I'd like to think that Rand will let him know first and foremost at some point in the future.  Mat and Perrin don't seem to care though which I felt was a little odd about the ending.

Is it confirmed that Cadsuane POV is Brandon's doing or was that inference from the style?

 

My problem with Rand riding off for a care-free life of exploration really was the casual attitude as his grieving father is standing broken over his funeral pyre and the potential extension of that into the  possible abandonment of his children.  I know he suspected one or more of the 3 women would follow him but he really was pretty sanguine about it.  The other poster who mentioned it was him "letting go" is a possible explanation but I have problems aligning this attitude with some of his thought process in VOG where he realised that it was all about caring.

 

The 3 women doing such a poor job of feigning grief was also strange.  That suggested that maybe this was all about just hiding Rand's survival from the world at large and that after some time away he would quietly re-engage with those he cared about.  Because if Nynaeve and Cadsuane smelled a rat someone else in the inner circle would.  So again, why not tell Tam?

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago.  He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived.  Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder.  And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

Why do you say the epilogue makes it impossible for ant post TG scenes?

[Prettyfox]

I think the people arguing about Rand not killing the dark one are missing the entire point...

 

The pattern isn't good or evil, however, the Creator and the Dark One are. The Creator is inherently good and the Dark One is inherently bad. They both affect the pattern in different ways, and if you were to remove one entity, then the other would reign supreme. If the pattern is unaffected by the dark one, then the Creator will influence it more greatly and get rid of the shadow that hides in the hearts of all...

[Prettyfox]

 

 

I think its evident that everyone who cares deeply about Rand will come to suspect that he turned out okay eventually.  Nynaeve suspects something, Cadsuane figured it out (despite this being a Brandon addition, I liked it), and the girls are not even attempting to act like they're grieving.  For all real purposes, Lan and Moiraine and some of the other characters aren't Rand's personal friends and his association with them is over now that he's played his role as the Dragon Reborn.

 

Tam is the only one left entirely in the dark, but I'd like to think that Rand will let him know first and foremost at some point in the future.  Mat and Perrin don't seem to care though which I felt was a little odd about the ending.

Is it confirmed that Cadsuane POV is Brandon's doing or was that inference from the style?

 

My problem with Rand riding off for a care-free life of exploration really was the casual attitude as his grieving father is standing broken over his funeral pyre and the potential extension of that into the  possible abandonment of his children.  I know he suspected one or more of the 3 women would follow him but he really was pretty sanguine about it.  The other poster who mentioned it was him "letting go" is a possible explanation but I have problems aligning this attitude with some of his thought process in VOG where he realised that it was all about caring.

 

The 3 women doing such a poor job of feigning grief was also strange.  That suggested that maybe this was all about just hiding Rand's survival from the world at large and that after some time away he would quietly re-engage with those he cared about.  Because if Nynaeve and Cadsuane smelled a rat someone else in the inner circle would.  So again, why not tell Tam?

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago.  He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived.  Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder.  And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

Why do you say the epilogue makes it impossible for ant post TG scenes?

I have a feeling that what makes impossible post TG scenes is that Robert Jordan probably has no notes for anything post TG, and that everyone who really enjoys his books would be hesitant to ruin what his vision for it may have been.

[woomia]

I don't want any post TG scenes. I like using my imagination to speculate.

[Threepy]

I think the people arguing about Rand not killing the dark one are missing the entire point...

 

The pattern isn't good or evil, however, the Creator and the Dark One are. The Creator is inherently good and the Dark One is inherently bad. They both affect the pattern in different ways, and if you were to remove one entity, then the other would reign supreme. If the pattern is unaffected by the dark one, then the Creator will influence it more greatly and get rid of the shadow that hides in the hearts of all...

 

I don't like the reasoning myself. A world without violence can't exist because people don't have the free will to be evil? I don't like it, I hated how easily Rand was swayed ... but I understand it (in relation to the book series) and can deal with it. My issue was that it was even a plot point - I don't think the series would have lost out at all had Rand aimed to Seal the Bore all along instead of coming up with the idea to kill the Dark One. It seemed weird that for all the wisdom Rand gained post-VoG that his views could be shaken by a potential future of Aviendha playing with some children.

 

The entire explanation of it we saw from Rand's PoV frustrated me - it lacked finesse in the same way VoG did (and the end to the Mistborn trilogy) - because what we were shown in this chapter didn't really feel sufficient enough to do to Rand what it did.

 

The Dark One fight felt a bit anti-climatic and vague to myself, and though I think Sanderson has done a decent job with Rand over the last three books I thought his actual story in AMOL lacked excitement and the problems I have just mentioned aren't really Rand-specific.

 

Anyway, i was hugely glad that Rand lived, his character deserved it and I'd have been distraught had he died. I have little problem with the pipe thing, but found it weird he could leave his father and childhood friends believing he was dead. 

[garryturk]

 

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago.  He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived.  Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder.  And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

Why do you say the epilogue makes it impossible for ant post TG scenes?

I meant impossible to have any post-TG scenes appear in AMOL if the idea was to have the final scenes written by RJ as the last in the book.  RJ's last scenes were the ones in the epilogue so BS either had to finish the book there or add some material.  I just don't think he'd have ever done that because we had RJ tell us the final scene was known since 1984.  Brandon couldn't have really said "well yes but I decided I could do better".

[ypdmd]

He can fully manipulate the pattern now... Did you see him take hold of the pattern and work it? 

You notice how grass and blooms were popping up at Shayol Gul?

He burned himself out and cannot channel, he doesnt need to, he can bend the pattern to fit his needs.

Or - TAR and the real one are so close at SG (the thinness in the pattern) that you can will things there.

[Sabio]

 

I think the people arguing about Rand not killing the dark one are missing the entire point...

 

The pattern isn't good or evil, however, the Creator and the Dark One are. The Creator is inherently good and the Dark One is inherently bad. They both affect the pattern in different ways, and if you were to remove one entity, then the other would reign supreme. If the pattern is unaffected by the dark one, then the Creator will influence it more greatly and get rid of the shadow that hides in the hearts of all...

 

I don't like the reasoning myself. A world without violence can't exist because people don't have the free will to be evil? I don't like it, I hated how easily Rand was swayed ... but I understand it (in relation to the book series) and can deal with it. My issue was that it was even a plot point - I don't think the series would have lost out at all had Rand aimed to Seal the Bore all along instead of coming up with the idea to kill the Dark One. It seemed weird that for all the wisdom Rand gained post-VoG that his views could be shaken by a potential future of Aviendha playing with some children.

 

The entire explanation of it we saw from Rand's PoV frustrated me - it lacked finesse in the same way VoG did (and the end to the Mistborn trilogy) - because what we were shown in this chapter didn't really feel sufficient enough to do to Rand what it did.

 

The Dark One fight felt a bit anti-climatic and vague to myself, and though I think Sanderson has done a decent job with Rand over the last three books I thought his actual story in AMOL lacked excitement and the problems I have just mentioned aren't really Rand-specific.

 

Anyway, i was hugely glad that Rand lived, his character deserved it and I'd have been distraught had he died. I have little problem with the pipe thing, but found it weird he could leave his father and childhood friends believing he was dead. 

Rand was swayed becuase he saw that it was true.  Pg 890 Rand saw most of what the DO had showed him was lies but he knew his vission of what the world would be like without the DO was true.

[Sabio]

 

Hate duplicate posts.

[buddhatanker]

 

 

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago.  He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived.  Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder.  And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

Why do you say the epilogue makes it impossible for ant post TG scenes?

I meant impossible to have any post-TG scenes appear in AMOL if the idea was to have the final scenes written by RJ as the last in the book.  RJ's last scenes were the ones in the epilogue so BS either had to finish the book there or add some material.  I just don't think he'd have ever done that because we had RJ tell us the final scene was known since 1984.  Brandon couldn't have really said "well yes but I decided I could do better".

True

[Elan Tedronai]

So anyone still disagree about rand boneheaded decision to destroy the choedan kal?

 

oh my god it's too powerful to use it!!

 

I bet logain would have made use of it against demy, taim and the sharans

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder how much of the epilogue we read here was written by RJ many many years ago. He said he knew the final scene since 1984, I wonder if he wrote this some time ago and if it would have seen rework if he had lived. Brandon plainly really didn't want to change it beyond what was absolutely necessary -- the right decision -- but I do wonder. And I do feel somewhat sorry for Brandon as the epilogue made it impossible for any post-TG scenes .

Why do you say the epilogue makes it impossible for ant post TG scenes?

I meant impossible to have any post-TG scenes appear in AMOL if the idea was to have the final scenes written by RJ as the last in the book. RJ's last scenes were the ones in the epilogue so BS either had to finish the book there or add some material. I just don't think he'd have ever done that because we had RJ tell us the final scene was known since 1984. Brandon couldn't have really said "well yes but I decided I could do better".

True

We know Brandon added parts to the end. For instance Cadsuane was all him.

[Tonkawolf]

At the end of the book Rand isn't mortal anymore.  He has evolved beyond life and death.  He actually developed the ability to step outside creation, outside of reality.  He can weave with the basic elements of creation itself.

 

He is not the Avatar of the Creator anymore than he is the Avatar of the Dark One.  He is the force in-between.  He is the Galactus of Randland.  

 

He didn't die at the end of AMOL because he couldn't.  The world was broken.  Society is on the verge of total colapse.  Shara just lost its ruler and most of its ruling class.  Seanchan is in chaos, the empress is dead, the land is fractured by civil war.  Randland is in chaos, Caemlyn, the center of civilization is completely destroyed. Most of the people are starving.  Even after the breaking, and the dreadlords were put down, society still reverted from a golden age greater than we can dream of in our world, to something akin to the dark ages of Europe.  How much further would it fall after Tarmon Gai'don?

 

The Dragon will stay in the world until he can repair the damage and set the world on a course to recovery.  Eventually, he will leave and sleep until he is needed again.  Then, when the world is in a Golden Age, and people are evolving beyond the understanding of evil, he will return and inspire men to open a bore, as LTT the destroyer, and the cycle will begin anew, until Rand comes back to repair the world.

 

The purpose of the Dragon is to maintain the balance.  RJ obviously believed in balance more than anything, the symbol of his world is the yin and yang after all.  As for the arguments Rand should have killed the DO, ok, fine I'll consider that after you tell me how to make a coin with only one side.  Our brains are hardwired to define everything by its opposite.  Life vs. death, matter vs. space, here vs. gone, pain vs. joy, and yes, good vs. evil.  I don't think we're capable of comprehending one without the other.  That was the point of the story, we define  our selves by our choosing between good and evil.

 

The DO never wanted to kill Rand, it would serve no purpose.  In fact, he went to great lengths to keep Rand alive, even going so far as to kill (as Shaidar Haran), some of the Forsaken that put him in too much danger.  Rand was the Avatar of the Dragon. The DO can't kill the Dragon, because the Dragon is stronger than the DO.  He has to be, he is the mechanism the Creator made to put the DO back into his prison, and restore the balance. The DO can only win by corrupting him, by convincing the Dragon to break the wheel, something even the DO can't do.

[SinisterDeath]

So anyone still disagree about rand boneheaded decision to destroy the choedan kal? oh my god it's too powerful to use it!! I bet logain would have made use of it against demy, taim and the sharans

My memories really shady on this...

I know the female one blew up... Did rand purposely destroy the male one, or was it more happenstance like with the female one?

 

But hey.

The horn nearly got into the shadows hands (thrice?)

Whats the chances of both the male & female one being stolen?

 

 

Or - TAR and the real one are so close at SG (the thinness in the pattern) that you can will things there.

I took it as, Rand being able to use the True Source (combined one power) in a way that simply operates differently.No weaving, simply willing.

Its entirely possible, that the One Power in its self, coudl work in a similar way (through willing somethign to happen) and that 'weaving' is just the minds way of doing it.

They train themselves to use it in that manner. And rands millenia  of expereince within that timeless void fighting the darkone, gave him him the knowledge and experience to simply will things into existance using the true source. (much like Morodin had access to the true power, Rand has access to the True Source (as has been theorizes for the longest time) The true source, defined as..

"The One Power comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time."

[SinisterDeath]

So anyone still disagree about rand boneheaded decision to destroy the choedan kal? oh my god it's too powerful to use it!! I bet logain would have made use of it against demy, taim and the sharans

My memories really shady on this...

I know the female one blew up... Did rand purposely destroy the male one, or was it more happenstance like with the female one?

 

But hey.

The horn nearly got into the shadows hands (thrice?)

Whats the chances of both the male & female one being stolen?

 

 

Or - TAR and the real one are so close at SG (the thinness in the pattern) that you can will things there.

I took it as, Rand being able to use the True Source (combined one power) in a way that simply operates differently.No weaving, simply willing.

Its entirely possible, that the One Power in its self, coudl work in a similar way (through willing somethign to happen) and that 'weaving' is just the minds way of doing it.

They train themselves to use it in that manner. And rands millenia  of expereince within that timeless void fighting the darkone, gave him him the knowledge and experience to simply will things into existance using the true source. (much like Morodin had access to the true power, Rand has access to the True Source (as has been theorizes for the longest time) The true source, defined as..

"The One Power comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time."

[Suttree]

 

The DO can't kill the Dragon, because the Dragon is stronger than the DO. He has to be, he is the mechanism the Creator made to put the DO back into his prison, and restore the balance. The DO can only win by corrupting him, by convincing the Dragon to break the wheel, something even the DO can't do.

Uhhm what? The DO has both turned and killed the Dragon in the past. We know that for fact the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow. It still didn't result in an ultimate victory when that happened however.

 

@sinister

Rand did it on purpose.