Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Entreri]

 

 

How can Callandor survive the True Power balefire from Ishamael in book2? TP destroys cuendillar. In Rand PoV, the Light of Callandor outshined the balefire stream...

 

Well, that battle happened in Tel'aran'rhiod. Maybe it had something to do with it? Perrin could stop balefire, so maybe Callandor can too, while in Dream World?

 

I'd say it was Rand, not Callandor. Rand probably, out of rage or Callandor-fueled madness, believed that Callandor would part the balefire, and so it did.

 

This would make sense.

 

However, I am not entirely sure that Callandor cannot stop balefire in Randland.

 

How does one create a sa'angreal that taps both the OP and TP? Had to be a male AS who had access to both...if Callandor was created with OP/TP (cuendillar), it would be truly indestructable. 

[avernite]

Well, do we know exactly when Callandor was made?

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Taint already existed when it was made, and the Taint is sortof similar to the True Power. Leakage of the Taint into the manufacturing process then flawed Callandor but also somehow turned it into a TP Sa'Angreal.

[Agitel]

Well, do we know exactly when Callandor was made?

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Taint already existed when it was made, and the Taint is sortof similar to the True Power. Leakage of the Taint into the manufacturing process then flawed Callandor but also somehow turned it into a TP Sa'Angreal.

 

 

It was made during the War of Power, which lasted ten years, and immediately preceded the Breaking. So it was before the Dark One tainted saidin.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 28th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Jason Wolfbrother (Paraphrased)

 

JASON WOLFBROTHER

Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes.

 

JASON WOLFBROTHER

Was it used in the War of Power?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JASON WOLFBROTHER

Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=146&theo=2848

[jack of shadows]

@entreri,

"if callandor was created with op/tp (cuendillar),it would be truly indestructable"

callandor is maybe indestructable,but now it is buried deep in shayol ghul.

it is highly unlikely that rand could have managed to drag moridin out of the pit

and also take callandor with only one hand just before the rocks slammed down behind him.

the dragon was truly and finally reborn when he claimed and used callandor for the first

time in thousands years in the heart of the stone,and fittingly enough,the dragon reborn

and callandor's journey ended in approximately the same time and place with both of them

"dying",the sword inside shayol ghul and the dragon reborn just outside of it.

...until the next cycle of course.

[Jonathan Lewis]

Am I the only one that does not feel that Rand is as powerful as most people say?

 

I distinctly remember reading about different types of ter'angreal in an earlier book.  The character (Moraine maybe?) talked about how there was a ter'angreal shaped as pipe.  

 

Unfortunately, I cannot prove this as I am doing a reread to find it.   However, I could be wrong, but I truly do not feel like I am.

[jack of shadows]

@jonlewis,

prior to the last battle,rand was certainly the most powerful channeler on the light side,

now,if your question is only about rand's strength  after the last battle,well,

from my personal point of view,rand returned from shayol ghul with new and improved

abilities,but that is all immaterial,and not because we don't have enough information

to properly interpret the pipe scene,it's because rand does not care.

i do urge you to reread the last two pages,you can almost "see" the joie the vivre emanating

from rand,so forget about power(we are talking about rand here not lanfear) and be happy

for him-i know i am.

[demeter]

Why didn t moridin knew about callandors flaw? Didn t he know about callandor at all?

[Arran]

Why didn t moridin knew about callandors flaw? Didn t he know about callandor at all?

Everyone knew about Callandor, but practically nobody knew about its flaw. Min was set the task of researching it.

[demeter]

Did the DO try to kill rand? In the last books, and from what I have read here, DO did not want rand dead. But in the first books, IIRC, it was more luck and small margins that saved Rand.

[woomia]

Did the DO try to kill rand? In the last books, and from what I have read here, DO did not want rand dead. But in the first books, IIRC, it was more luck and small margins that saved Rand.

 

Nope, the DO didn't try to kill Rand. Not directly. He wanted to break Rand's, will.

[Crowbane]

By killing DO he would destroy what it means to be human, to chose between good and evil. 

 

I interpet that he sealed the Dark One outside of the pattern so he can no longer directly effect it like he has previously - but not preventing him from effecting those still in the pattern.

[Paul H]

I have been meaning to add a reply to this thread for a while now.  First, let me say that I am amazed at how quickly many of you managed to read A Memory of Light.  I placed an order for AMoL on Amazon.com a few days before the U.S. release date (January 8), and I received it about two or three days after the release date.  By the time I received my book, I see that there was already at least a full page of posts on this thread (and probably on several other threads too).  Apparently some people were able to read the book in two or three days, while it took me a month and a half to read it, even though I truly spent almost every moment of free time reading.  So again, I am really in awe of the early dates on many of the posts here.

 

I read through every page of this thread a couple of weeks ago, and here are some quotes that I thought were especially insightful, and/or that I wanted to reply to:

 

 

Ashaman Andr3w wrote:

I, humbly, might I add, wanted something more. More than Rand saying oh hell, let's just fix this great big hole up properly until someone decides to bore a hole into again in 2000yrs time. It felt like an unsatisfying end despite having such a bold desire at the start of the book. It made me question the point in what he done!? If he was able to look back and reminisce about what he had done wrong as Lews Therin, then why not look back further again to previous battles, previous encounters as different entities? Elan Morin said it himself; "You and I have fought a thousand battles since the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand." I always assumed that the prologue, and Elan Moran's words where an unspoken challenge...try and change this cycle Dragon??? Perhaps I should have simply interpreted those words as sense of foreshadowing or foreboding as to how the series would end? How things turned out however almost seemed like an easy way out when there was the possibility of something grander!?

 

I agree with this.  For years now, as I have read the books, I have wondered whether there is something special about this particular turning of the wheel.  It seemed to me that there were two possibilities:

 

(1)  This turning of the wheel is no different from any other turning, at least not in any significant way.  The wheel will continue to turn, and the same story will play out again and again and again, in keeping with the cyclical nature of history in the series.

 

(2)  This time it is different.  This time Rand finds a way to break the cycle.  He finds a way to kill the Dark One, thus freeing humanity from the repeating cycle of history, and perhaps setting history on a linear course going forward.

 

I have to say that RJ really kept me guessing, as I half expected (1), and I half expected (2).  But I really hoped for (2).  To me, it would have been a better ending.

 

 

dirk wrote:

My problem with the body switch is not metaphysical or anything like that.  The problem is that there was no explanation in the text as to what was going on for the "casual" reader.   The whole crossed-balefire-streams thing is a creation of US on this forum and others like it.  You can't just assume that someone reading WOT without participating in all this online craziness is going to know or remember anything about that.  I guess I'm being a bit critical of the way it was written - assuming the reader is too much of an online fan.

 

I agree with this point.  I half expected the body swap because I had read fan theories about the end of the series, here on Dragonmount and on other WoT sites.  But if I had been just a casual reader who never visited WoT web sites, I think I would have been very confused by the body swap.  Actually, I still am very confused by the body swap, but if I hadn't read fan theories beforehand, I would have been even more confused.

 

 

Suttree wrote:

Anyone who dug in to the major themes and cosmology of this world knew that the DO would not be killed. This was merely one turning and there are no endings to the wheel unless the DO breaks the cycle. RJ was pretty clear on that long before we got to the ending of AMoL.

 

I guess it depends on whether you think that the cosmology is changeable or not.  I hoped that maybe it was.  However, I suspected that maybe it wasn't.  But until I got to the end of AMoL, I still wasn't sure which way RJ had intended to go.

 

 

 

To be continued . . .

[Paul H]

Jascob wrote:

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because:

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.
 
3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.

 

Um, yeah.  I thought pretty much the same thing.  Plus, in addition to the foot injury, Aviendha has her duties as a Wise One.

 

 

Darki'n wrote:

"I understood this from Aviendha's vision in Rhuidean, where it was revealed that her and Rand's children hold to the Power perpetually and can channel with only a little more than a thought. I think that means the children have a part of Rand's new power, combined with Aviendha's normal channeling. That means they are the children of Moridin-Rand, which also explains their different features. Also, this means Aviendha will follow Rand at some point to get children with the "new" Rand."

 

This idea (that some of Aviendha's and Rand's children might be conceived from the Moridin body) had never occurred to me until I came to this site and started reading some of the posts.  It does seem like a possibility to me, except for one thing:  In Aviendha's vision, weren't her children called "the children of the Dragon"?  Unless these children were conceived on the night that Rand and Aviendha spent together, before he went to Shayol Ghul, why would anyone think that they were Rand's children?  Everyone thinks that Rand died after confronting the Dark One, so I would think that any children born more than nine months after Rand's "death" would not be called "children of the Dragon."  Am I missing something?

 

 

BenevolentCow wrote:

I would of rather Rand simply not be able to kill the DO rather than choosing to let him live, or perhaps that the DO is a requirement of the pattern and destroying him destroys everything instead of destroying him makes everything less interesting.

 

Yep.  If Rand had tried to kill the DO, and found that it was impossible, the ending would have worked better for me.  It still might have been somewhat disappointing, for reasons detailed in the last quote below.  But it would have been disappointing rather than frustrating, which would be an improvement.

 

jjp wrote:

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

 

I don't agree with everything in this quote, but it does capture some of my frustration at how Rand's confrontation with the Dark One played out.

 

Erdrick wrote:

Consider the following (2003) quote from RJ, discussing the struggle between Light and Shadow:
"This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it."
Here's where I agree with Ishamael's logic: if there is some finite possibility of the DO achieving ultimate victory, then (unless there is also a possible ultimate victory for the Light) sooner or later the DO will win. Unless the world can be shifted off this axle of endless repetition, the DO will eventually succeed in his goal of unraveling all that is, was and will be.

I like the way RJ mixes in things from different cultures and traditions. Some cultures have a cyclic view of time, interestingly, often with their goal being eventual liberation from that endless cycle (cf "moksha" or "nibbana"). Other cultures have a more linear sense of time, where progress and possibilities are as open as we can make them. There have been countless turnings of the Wheel of Time. The particular one I was hoping we were reading about is that unique and final turning, where the Wheel is hopped off its axle and transitions into a more linear progression of time. I enjoyed this final book, but cannot escape a mild sense of "here we go again" hopelessness at the end.

Scrap all that nonsense about needing evil to have some form of positive existence for people to have free will. You can have all degrees of relative darkness (which is just the relative absence of light) without needing the existence of an evil deity bent on erasing all of existence. People have different levels of honor, courage, integrity, knowledge, etc. You do not need a "Satan" type figure for people to have misplaced values, be self-centered, power-seeking, cruel, or have various other mental deficiencies. You can even keep the more fantasy genre type evil forces, like the powers Mordeth discovered that were an evil independent of the DO.

 

So, jack of shadows, you ask for an alternate ending...how about this: Rand figures out how to effectively "kill" the DO. Due to unique circumstances of this turning of the Wheel, Rand is in a position to permanently sever the DO from the pattern, say by knocking the Wheel of Time off its axle and leaving the DO in the dust (so to speak). Time marches on, and there will always be a struggle between right and wrong, but the future is now open wide to patterns of endless possibilities.

 

Reread the following excerpt from TGH (chapter 15):
"I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin...This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold."
This is what I was hoping for. Once again I found myself agreeing with Ishamael.

 

Best post of the entire thread.  I have nothing to add to this.

[jack of shadows]

paul h,

brandon sanderson already confirmed that aviendha got pregnant from the night

she spent with rand in the field of merrilor.

[Paul H]

paul h,

brandon sanderson already confirmed that aviendha is pregnant from the night

she spent with rand in the field of merrilor.

 

Thanks, I did not know that Brandon had confirmed that, though I had assumed that she must be pregnant.  However, isn't Aviendha supposed to have four children, according to her vision from Rhuidean?  (I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought it was four.)  If that is right, then I wonder if that means she got pregnant with quadruplets, or if she and Rand/Moridin will have more children later to bring the total to four.  (But if she and Rand/Moridin have more children later, then again I would think that would be problematic with them being called the "children of the Dragon".)

[Paul H]

A few more of my own thoughts and questions regarding Rand:

 

• Exactly when did Rand and Moridin swap bodies?  Was it before or after they came out of the cavern?  I guess the consensus here seems to be that the old Aiel woman outside the cavern (presumably Nakomi) probably had a hand in the body swap.  I don't suppose that Brandon has confirmed this?
• What exactly did Alivia do to Rand and/or Moridin?  How did she "help Rand die"?  When I first read the ending, I thought that Alivia must have used the One Power somehow to make the body swap happen.  Upon thinking it over further, and reading some posts here, it seems clear that the body swap must have happened earlier, without Alivia's intervention.  So I guess that all Alivia did to "help Rand die" was to get him some coins and clothes.  Am I on the right track?
• Why can't Rand channel, after taking on Moridin's body?  Didn't RJ say that the ability to channel goes with the soul?  So shouldn't Rand still be able to channel?  I guess maybe Moridin got burned out during the confrontation with the Dark One, but again, wouldn't Rand be able to channel as long as Rand didn't get burned out?  (I guess the answer would be that maybe Rand got burned out too?)  And if it's correct that Rand and/or Moridin got burned out, then wouldn't it be possible for Rand to be Healed, so that he could channel again?  (In fact, I would assume that Elayne or Aviendha could Heal him, if they learned the technique from Nynaeve.)
• The way that Rand, Nynaeve, and Moiraine used Callandor through Moridin to re-seal the Dark One's prison was very clever, and completely unexpected for me.  For me, this use of Callandor and Moridin was overshadowed by what I think was a bone-headed decision by Rand not to kill the Dark One when he had the chance, but still the way that Callandor was used was very cool.
• It was very fitting that Rand had Moiraine and Nynaeve by his side when he re-sealed the Dark One's prison.  I had assumed that he would take two women channelers with him, but prior to AMoL, I wasn't entirely sure which two would go with him.  I am very glad that he didn't take someone annoying like Elayne or Egwene (though I do like Elayne and Egwene), or a minor character like Alivia.  Moiraine and Nynaeve were the perfect choice.

[jack of shadows]

@crowbane,

"i interpret that he sealed the dark one outside the pattern so he can no longer directly effect it."

no.the dark one was never inside the pattern.

"the dark one is part of the wheel,moiraine said."

"no.the dark one is outside the pattern,rand countered.not part of the wheel at all."

rand was right of course,the dark one is not bound by laws of time and space,so in order to kill him/it

rand had to move the dark one inside time,or inside the pattern if you will,and that's exactly what happened,

er,well almost:

"filled with power,standing in a column of light,rand pulled the dark one into the pattern.only here was there time.

only here could the shadow itself be killed."

in the end,rand changed his mind and thrusted the dark one back through the pit of doom-outside the pattern.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

it seems that your doppelganger was balefired out of  the pattern hahaha.

[jack of shadows]

@paul h,

in my opinion,alivia have had nothing to do with the body swap.

rand did prepare himself for the worst but hoped for the best,so he ploted an escape

route with alivia,but all  she did was to supply rand with clothes,money,a sword and (probably)

the horse, nothing more.

for some unexplained reasons,rand trusted her from the very beginning,let me remind

you how easily she did manage to integrate with rand's inner circle after she was captured in altara,

and we are talking about rand al thor here,who even at the best of times is not a very trusting

person.

initailly,alivia seemed like an odd choice for the task,alivia?why her?why not ask aviendha or elayne

or min?

on second thought,she is just perfect for the job,unassuming and far less conspicuous than rand's three lovers.

[Rhienne]

I still find Alivia to be an odd choice.  Rand barely new here.  And she is pretty conspicious being an extremely strong channeler and Seanchan, any AS in the area would probably be curious as to what she was doing.  I don't understand why Rand didn't just have Elayne/Min/Aviendha/a Maiden/a servant anyone leave some clothes out.  I don't see why it had to be Alivia in particular, or even why she would be anywhere near Rand's tent.  Surely there wouldn't be any good reason for her to be there and it would raise suspicions?

[shortkut]

Strong female weapon could be assigned to stand watch/shield the forsaken rand decided to save

[Rhienne]

Strong female weapon could be assigned to stand watch/shield the forsaken rand decided to save

Fair point, but still doesn't explain why Min/Avi/Elayne didn't do it.  If you don't want anyone to know you're still alive and using Moridin's body why involve anyone who doesn't already know (through the bond)?

[Laica Sedai]

 

Strong female weapon could be assigned to stand watch/shield the forsaken rand decided to save

Fair point, but still doesn't explain why Min/Avi/Elayne didn't do it.  If you don't want anyone to know you're still alive and using Moridin's body why involve anyone who doesn't already know (through the bond)?

 

And maybe he didn't want to give Min/Avi/Elayne (false) hope that he would survive? The three would know if he survived, but it would be very strange to ask them to put clothes in the tent if he wouldn't die. Again, false hope. As for the other options... If Rand would ask an AS they would wonder why he needed clothes and coins which would result in (AS) guards at the tent all the time. Any servant would spread the word of the strange command, which makes, in my opinion, Alivia the only one (I think) who could have done this for him. And Alivia is smart enough to escape from any AS as we have seen before :)

[jack of shadows]

@laica sedai,

look,the four of them i.e. rand and his three lovers did fight the same war,hope and despair

were always factors weighing heavily on their minds,and like elayne said:"a queen must have

hope before all else",the possibility of misleading his three lovers by giving the wrong impression is without merit

after reading rhienne post i changed my mind,"if you don't want anyone to know you're still alive

and using moridin's body" why involve someone outside the loop?(outside the four way bond).

the other options e.g. a maiden/servant/aes sedai/aha'man are even worse,it's like installing a huge

flagpole in the middle of shayol ghul with a glowing message in the centre of the banner: i am planning a vanishing act,goodbye to you all-rand al thor.

 

so why did rand choose alivia????

[David Selig]

I still find Alivia to be an odd choice.  Rand barely new here.  And she is pretty conspicious being an extremely strong channeler and Seanchan, any AS in the area would probably be curious as to what she was doing.  I don't understand why Rand didn't just have Elayne/Min/Aviendha/a Maiden/a servant anyone leave some clothes out.  I don't see why it had to be Alivia in particular, or even why she would be anywhere near Rand's tent.  Surely there wouldn't be any good reason for her to be there and it would raise suspicions?

 Because the prophecy said she'd help him die. Otherwise she might end up killing Rand later. Makes sense in a world where prophecy works reliably.