Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Rhienne]

 

 

The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

 

 

The frequency of a theory isn't proof of accuracy (cue Gaidal Cain = Olver and Taimendred).    Exactly what do you mean when you say that Rand manipulated the pattern during the battle with the DO?   Building make-believe visions isn't manipulating the pattern....they were just what-if scenarios.

Were they?

 

Consider this as a wild theory:

 

Where was the Dark One Bound? At Shayol Ghul.

When was the Dark One Bound? At the moment of creation.

Who bound the Dark One? The Creator.

 

My wild theory is that those were not just what if scenarios. They were different realities being created. Worlds of IF... Actually in existance and reachable via portal stone. Rand became the Creator... Not in the sense of God. But one who creates is a creator.

 

NO! Nakomi is the creator incarnate...

 

What age are they in? The end of the third age. What age was the age of Legends? The Second Age. Or maybe the first. There are seven ages. I suspect that Nakomi was the "Chosen One" of the previous third age.

 

Here's something else to consider, the book takes place in an age "called the third age by some." But which age is it really? Depending on one's point of view, it could be the Seventh age, and thus the new age ushered in by binding of the Dark One at shayol Ghul, ironocally, not just patching the bore, but remaking the prison. I figure that last time around, the Chosen One was a woman named Nakomi. And she did what Rand did at the moment of creation.

 

We have to remember that some portal stone worlds were reflections in which the Shadow was triumphant. Wasn't it even mentioned that some of them had poisonous atmospheres? If you consider that these worlds have been going on independently form age to age, some may have destroyed themselves many turnings of the wheel before.

 

This rabbit hole goes really deep my friends...

 

Consider what Rand does at the end... riding away from everything, not even telling Tam he's okay. Rand chose to leave PEOPLE to sort the world out. "I will take no part. Only the chosen ones can do what must be done, if they are willing."

 

But lighting his pipe by will of creation was a neutral act. So in the First/Fourth age, the Creator dwells among men in a body that once belonged to a Forsaken. Nobody knows who it belonged to before that. In the Second/Fifth age, nobody will have any memory of this person. When the end of the Seventh age comes again, and it is time for the next "last battle", it may be a strange hermit introducing himself as Rand al'Thor sharing a fire with someone who is on an urgent errand, and ultimately shows up at the end of the Confrontation.

 

In the previous turning of the Wheel, the name "Nakomi" might have been as well known as Rand al'Thor was in this turning.

 

Like I said.. It's a wild theory, and unless Brandon Sanderson or Harriet come out and directly say, "That's not the case," there is no way to prove or disprove it.

I really like it :)  I haven't really put too much thought into who Nakomi is, exactly what Rand did with his pipe, etc., so I don't know if your theory has flaws other than I think the Dragon is always a man, but to me it reads as quite satisfying.

[GregoryJackson]

 

I really like it :)  I haven't really put too much thought into who Nakomi is, exactly what Rand did with his pipe, etc., so I don't know if your theory has flaws other than I think the Dragon is always a man, but to me it reads as quite satisfying.

The Dragon may always be a man... But is the Chosen One always the Dragon?

[Suttree]

The Dragon may always be a man... But is the Chosen One always the Dragon?

Yes per RJ. The Dragon Soul is:

 

RJ

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

We also know that the Dragon Soul and Ishy are linked and often spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal. The Dragon Soul is the CoL.

[MauricXe]

The Chosen one = the dragon

[naposim]

I think Rand could light the pipe because RJ wanted him to light the pipe. It's a fantasy book after all. Not everything can be explained or deduced. It doesn't necessarily mean that he can bend reality or that he possesses some new kind of power etc. 

[naposim]

And it's also obvious that Ishamael had a deeper understanding of the struggle between Light and Shadow than anyone in the third age (including the other Forsaken). The other Forsaken wanted to kill Rand (except Lanfear in the beginning ) but Ishamael understood that he would be more useful if he could be turned and he also understood that they were linked together. Yes, he tried to kill him too (because he was mad and because his hand was forced) but after he was resurrected he was back to his chess match (this was reinforced by the wanderer incident).He played another game than the other Forsaken. I believe that Ishamael suspected some of the things that Rand finally realized just before he resealed the Dark One prison. The other Forsaken wanted to rule, Ishamael wanted complete destruction and at atleast the end welcomed death.

[Entreri]

Rand was able to understand the Pattern to such a degree (via match with Shai'tan) and also due to his awakening at Dragonmount, that yes, he was able to bend reality to his will at the end.

 

He made apples grow, trees grow etc, Light in his mind, Light that drove DF's mad, his children with Aviendha have unique ability (held OP 24/7, could weave when they were children, "She wove a gateway-for her, it happened as fast as she could THINK") and so on.

[Nae'blis]

But if the Dark One is sealed outside the pattern, how does his evil enter into anything?

 

Right, the Wheel is the one that allows people like Lanfear to create the hole in the first place (probably not an evil act in itself) - seems like a kinda random thing to allow if the Wheel is just concerned with "balance" and not say, telling a High Fantasy story, it also removes all agency from the Dark One and places it squarely in the hands of the Pandoras Box opening jerks who aren't even making an informed good/evil decision in the first place (so what purpose does the whole exercise serve, exactly?).

Which also doesn't explain why people would be completely "Turned to the Light", a world without evil, if the Dark One was destroyed. Logically this mean that the Dark One would have to be able to "influence" people, even when sealed "perfectly" or the instant Rand sealed him up again, everyone would turn out like that BAD END of his "Good" example future where he killed the Dark One (something that would make the Dark One pointless, and the Wheel evil for letting people stumble onto that particular IED of nasty).

 

Then there's the earlier writing which certainly made it seem like the Dark One can "Draw out" the evil in people, kinda like a more subtle Taint (which itself seem to be some form of True Power, passive, compulsion) - vs what we got in aMoL where Rand admits that the ol' age was probably fucked even if the Bore didn't happen.

 

Seems contradictory to me and I don't think any explanation sits well with what we read in aMoL.

 

When the DO is completely sealed off, he is unable to influence people. Their ability to choose good or evil is 50/50. However, he exists as the personification of evil, so the ability to choose evil itself is some quality which owes as its roots the DO's existence. That doesn't mean that when he is sealed off, he is still 'influencing' the Pattern actively, it just means that on its own, the Pattern was designed to be incorporate balance, which requires the DO's existence. He doesn't have to lend any power to the Wheel, evil exists in Randland intrinsically because of the DO's existence in reality at all.

 

What that means is, yes the Pattern either 'allowed' the Bore to be drilled, or actively made it happen. Now why that occurred is the true mystery. The answer lies in the resolution of the "a world without choice=bad" vs "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills" dichotomy. Perhaps the Wheel allows for the maximum possible choice without destruction, even if that means very, very limited choices sometimes. I don't know.

[Suttree]

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

[Entreri]

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

[Suttree]

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

[jack of shadows]

when rand met tuon,he was shielded by a damane,but still managed to regenerate

grass,leaves and flowers.

i understand that some talents are unrelated to the one power/true power, e.g.

dreamwalking or sniffing(hurin).

my question:rand's ability to grow and regenerate things is because he is the

dragon reborn and one with the land,or because he controls the talent of growing?

rand was quietly singing during the whole awesome display of growing,so the song

(probably any song) is just a way of "channeling" the growing?

[XXX]

I think Rand could light the pipe because RJ wanted him to light the pipe. It's a fantasy book after all. Not everything can be explained or deduced. It doesn't necessarily mean that he can bend reality or that he possesses some new kind of power etc. 

 

Well isn't that the whole point of a fantasy book so that we can discuss things which are impossible in real life.Be it Rand lighting his pipe with a thought or the OP being channeled to do crazy stuff.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

 

The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

 

 

The frequency of a theory isn't proof of accuracy (cue Gaidal Cain = Olver and Taimendred).    Exactly what do you mean when you say that Rand manipulated the pattern during the battle with the DO?   Building make-believe visions isn't manipulating the pattern....they were just what-if scenarios.

Were they?

 

Consider this as a wild theory:

 

Where was the Dark One Bound? At Shayol Ghul.

When was the Dark One Bound? At the moment of creation.

Who bound the Dark One? The Creator.

 

My wild theory is that those were not just what if scenarios. They were different realities being created. Worlds of IF... Actually in existance and reachable via portal stone. Rand became the Creator... Not in the sense of God. But one who creates is a creator.

 

NO! Nakomi is the creator incarnate...

 

What age are they in? The end of the third age. What age was the age of Legends? The Second Age. Or maybe the first. There are seven ages. I suspect that Nakomi was the "Chosen One" of the previous third age.

 

Here's something else to consider, the book takes place in an age "called the third age by some." But which age is it really? Depending on one's point of view, it could be the Seventh age, and thus the new age ushered in by binding of the Dark One at shayol Ghul, ironocally, not just patching the bore, but remaking the prison. I figure that last time around, the Chosen One was a woman named Nakomi. And she did what Rand did at the moment of creation.

 

We have to remember that some portal stone worlds were reflections in which the Shadow was triumphant. Wasn't it even mentioned that some of them had poisonous atmospheres? If you consider that these worlds have been going on independently form age to age, some may have destroyed themselves many turnings of the wheel before.

 

This rabbit hole goes really deep my friends...

 

Consider what Rand does at the end... riding away from everything, not even telling Tam he's okay. Rand chose to leave PEOPLE to sort the world out. "I will take no part. Only the chosen ones can do what must be done, if they are willing."

 

But lighting his pipe by will of creation was a neutral act. So in the First/Fourth age, the Creator dwells among men in a body that once belonged to a Forsaken. Nobody knows who it belonged to before that. In the Second/Fifth age, nobody will have any memory of this person. When the end of the Seventh age comes again, and it is time for the next "last battle", it may be a strange hermit introducing himself as Rand al'Thor sharing a fire with someone who is on an urgent errand, and ultimately shows up at the end of the Confrontation.

 

In the previous turning of the Wheel, the name "Nakomi" might have been as well known as Rand al'Thor was in this turning.

 

Like I said.. It's a wild theory, and unless Brandon Sanderson or Harriet come out and directly say, "That's not the case," there is no way to prove or disprove it.

But if this is the case, meaning that Nakomi is the previous Chosen  one, wouldnt it severely damage the fabric of the pattern that Rand and Nakomi were alive at the same time, and possibly even met at shayol ghul?

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

I think Rand could light the pipe because RJ wanted him to light the pipe. It's a fantasy book after all. Not everything can be explained or deduced. It doesn't necessarily mean that he can bend reality or that he possesses some new kind of power etc. 

 

Well isn't that the whole point of a fantasy book so that we can discuss things which are impossible in real life.Be it Rand lighting his pipe with a thought or the OP being channeled to do crazy stuff.

RJ would have put much more thought into something like this, he was very attentive to detail and everything fitting together.

[Finnssss22]

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

 

...and his singing (most likely "The Song"), the manual manifestation/acceleration of his link to the land.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

when rand met tuon,he was shielded by a damane,but still managed to regenerate

grass,leaves and flowers.

i understand that some talents are unrelated to the one power/true power, e.g.

dreamwalking or sniffing(hurin).

my question:rand's ability to grow and regenerate things is because he is the

dragon reborn and one with the land,or because he controls the talent of growing?

rand was quietly singing during the whole awesome display of growing,so the song

(probably any song) is just a way of "channeling" the growing?

The reason that the flowers were growing around rand was because although the DO was having a negative influence on the pattern, so the wheel needed to balance out the bubbles of evil with bubbles of good through rand

[mbuehner]

 

 

when rand met tuon,he was shielded by a damane,but still managed to regenerate

grass,leaves and flowers.

i understand that some talents are unrelated to the one: power/true power, e.g.

dreamwalking or sniffing(hurin).

my question:rand's ability to grow and regenerate things is because he is the

dragon reborn and one with the land,or because he controls the talent of growing?

rand was quietly singing during the whole awesome display of growing,so the song

(probably any song) is just a way of "channeling" the growing?

The reason that the flowers were growing around rand was because although the DO was having a negative influence on the pattern, so the wheel needed to balance out the bubbles of evil with bubbles of good through rand

Think its pretty clear Rand was intentionally making it look that way, but was using his Voice to make things grow. Mat heard him singing in Altara when plants were growing all around him confronting Tuon.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

...and his singing (most likely "The Song"), the manual manifestation/acceleration of his link to the land.

Yeah it seems as if Rand has "the voice" talent(as we know there is no "song") that was helping his DR "one with the land" mojo. The apples at least come before that however(or was he singing then too?) and what I was disputing is that he had some pattern manipulation abilities after coming down from DM as opposed to post SG.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

...and his singing (most likely "The Song"), the manual manifestation/acceleration of his link to the land.

Yeah it seems as if Rand has "the voice" talent(as we know there is no "song") that was helping his DR "one with the land" mojo. The apples at least come before that however(or was he singing then too?) and what I was disputing is that he had some pattern manipulation abilities after coming down from DM as opposed to post SG.

 

I think he always had some pattern manipulation powers, I mean that is what being a Tav means right.

The difference pre and post DM is that pre he was, for the lack of a better description, "Dark Rand" and while I wouldn't go so far as to say he was furthering the DO's taint, more like he wasn't countering it. Where post DM, he was, again for the lack of a better description, "Light Rand" and did begin to counter the DO's taint.

And the stronger the DO affects the pattern, the stronger Rand's abilities became, had to become to counter it.

The manipulation just seemed to "jump" in power because we missed the gradual build up that would have happened if he wasn't "Dark Rand".

That's my best guess.

[Entreri]

 

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

[Suttree]

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.

Proven right once again? In relation to what?

 

Most posters here and at TL agree about Brandon's band aid with the item of power at Maradon and about the "listening for the heart" trick.

 

Edit: Also I find it humorous how many times you have harped on Egwene not knowing what she is talking about, Rand not needing here for anything at TG etc. Yet now in this instance with the shield, in which there really is no way for her to know what she was talking about you act as if it's word of god.

 

@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

 

 

 

R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

so then is Rand purposely making the grass, apples, plants, etc. grow?

[Agitel]

Singing to make apples grow and trees bloom wouldn't light a pipe.

[jack of shadows]

in my opinion,growing apples and trees and lighting a pipe are two separate issues.

let's assume that rand has "the voice" talent,and he can use it at will,not just some

random happenstances here and there.

rand certainly used it to his advantage in ebou dar(he used it more like a shock

tactic than a gleeman awesomeness).

to light his pipe,rand used his mind and his will,not his voice.