Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[KakitaOCU]

Sad that I didn't mention this in my first post, but doesn't the Eye also shore up the Bore, buying Rand more time to come into his own and sort out what he needs to do?

 

It was a reprieve, kind of like the Bowl of the Winds.

 

In EotW the Winter was unending, it was freezing and killing the world, the DO was getting strong and stronger, the Blight was incredibly active. Until Rand took on Ishamael and did... Something... with the Eye. Then the winter ended, spring came, things went back to normal for a little while and the blight quieted down.

 

Couldn't that be the purpose. Maybe the Aes Sedai were able to Fortell that the seals would be too weak by the time LTT was reborn and so put in something to be used as a failsafe to buy time?

 

This part is more speculation on my part, but again, it fits.

 

But to be honest this could just be a me thing, I just never had any issue with the Eye not being used or brought up again.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that.

 

I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible.

 

I think anyone could destroy the Dark One given those circumstances.  They managed to step between worlds and confront the Dark One on a plane outside of reality.

 

In my mind, the only thing really unique about Rand in those circumstances is that he has the will power, presence of mind, and everything else to resist the Dark Ones attacks and efforts to overwhelm him.  I suspect other souls would be devoured and give up.  I also suspect that no other soul will ever possess the ta'averen qualities to actually be in a position to do what Rand did.

 

Rand was only really "special" because the pattern needed someone to do what he did to balance things out, and he happened to be the one chosen.  Everyone else would have failed because the pattern would have been working against them - or at best, they would have been up against unreal odds.

[Amandera]

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that.

 

I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible.

A misnomer or a metaphor. It doesn't really make any difference. When Rand goes in to face the DO, he does not step into DO's prison but he steps out of the Pattern and finds the DO there.

 

As for destroying the Creator. Why not? Mierin already thought of it and she should know. She is one of the people that discovered the TP and drilled the Bore.

[Amandera]

Sad that I didn't mention this in my first post, but doesn't the Eye also shore up the Bore, buying Rand more time to come into his own and sort out what he needs to do? It was a reprieve, kind of like the Bowl of the Winds. In EotW the Winter was unending, it was freezing and killing the world, the DO was getting strong and stronger, the Blight was incredibly active. Until Rand took on Ishamael and did... Something... with the Eye. Then the winter ended, spring came, things went back to normal for a little while and the blight quieted down. Couldn't that be the purpose. Maybe the Aes Sedai were able to Fortell that the seals would be too weak by the time LTT was reborn and so put in something to be used as a failsafe to buy time? This part is more speculation on my part, but again, it fits. But to be honest this could just be a me thing, I just never had any issue with the Eye not being used or brought up again.

Maybe. But RJ said the Eye wasn't used as intended by its creators. I always thought Blight receding as Rand facing the DO and winning. So it was not really the object but the Dragon himself. I maybe wrong though, and you may be right.

[Nae'blis]

 

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that.

 

I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible.

A misnomer or a metaphor. It doesn't really make any difference. When Rand goes in to face the DO, he does not step into DO's prison but he steps out of the Pattern and finds the DO there.

 

As for destroying the Creator. Why not? Mierin already thought of it and she should know. She is one of the people that discovered the TP and drilled the Bore.

How could a being be capable of creating something more powerful than itself, in any circumstance in which the creation is ex nihilo? Would you think it possible to take on God, supposing he was not omnipotent but still created the entire Universe from scratch? 

[Amandera]

By giving your creation the ability to control and manipulate your essence which in this case is One Power. Or you have the alternative of True Power. Remember in this world you have channelers.

 

I'm not sure powerful is the right word though. How do you judge the Creator's strength? By his ability to create? Then by no means, any single person is as strong as Creator. But destruction is a lot easier to achieve than creation. You do not have to be more powerful than Creator to destroy him.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

So much that wasn't in the book.  I loved it, I'm overjoyed we finally have the ending, but I can't help thinking that this book could have been much better if we knew a little more...

 

The Wyld.  Out of nowhere.  We get it, Demandred pretended to be (or maybe actually was) a leader out of Sharan prophecy, but that's litterally all we know.  What exactly is a Wyld?  What was he prophesied to do?  Why are the Sharans fighting alongside Shadowspawn completely unconcerned?

[Viperswhip]

I don't know what the purpose of the Eye was, but it served as an official intro to Saidin for Rand, and gave him a taint free first experience. That's pretty important I suppose.

[lilltempest]

 

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

 

"1357758431">

>The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen

either.

Min's viewing of "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", WOs' dream of "you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see" and Nicola's Foretelling of "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.", they are all the same thing. And it is fulfilled with Rand's fake death and his three women knowing about it. You can easily say that does not satisfy you but you can't really say it is not fulfilled.

 

Agree about Moiraine, she didn't do much.

 

We saw the start of Logain's glory. It is not glory in war, that's actually one of the themes in the series. There is little glory to be found in battles. Logain now knows this.

There is little glory through forcing your will on other , that's what Logain learned , he learned you didn't have to be the most powerful you just needed to do the right thing .

 

+1.

 

The man was just dragged through hell and resisted what no other Asha'man or Aes Sedai had resisted to that point. It took mere hours, or less, to force others to turn - he had been through this for weeks. He had a stronger will than any of them to make it through that without breaking.

 

Oddly, I saw a parallel between him and Egwene here. In this book, he was at the point Egwene was at after having been rescued from the Seanchan - remember how paranoid she was? And how determined she was to attack anyone who meant to exert their will on her? Hell, she almost ended up getting captured again, along with Nyn and Elayne in the process, because she couldn't control herself long enough to get to safety. She attacked the friendliest Whitecloak there was on her way back to the Tower due to her paranoia/PTSD. As much as she despised the Seanchan, Logain despised the Aes Sedai and Shadow because of what was done to him. The difference is that he had the bond to Gabrelle and could feel she was being sincere in her concern for him.

 

I had heard other people claim, but never really believed until now, that Egwene's quest to control everyone was more about not being controlled than about having that power itself. Logain's desire for power was obviously from that desire - he did not want to suffer at the hands of Aes Sedai or Darkfriends or anyone else ever again, and the only way to achieve that was mass amounts of power so no one dared challenge him. I think that the same desire may have actually driven Egwene to make many of the choices she did as well. It was never as clear in her POV, in my opinion - it just seemed she was an arrogant bitch who thought she knew everything and wanted to cow everyone around her - but with Logain, I see the parallels, because Logain's pain and fear over what happened to him is laid bare, as are his motives. I think Logain suffered far more at the hands of Taim and his men than Egwene ever did with the Seanchan or at the WT (spankings are spankings, damn it, and Elaida had given orders not to break her spirit, so I got sick of hearing how it was like what Rand suffered), but the similarities are very in-your-face.

 

I'm glad that Logain understood, in the end, that it wasn't conquering or forcing people into kneeling to him that would get him where he wished to be. I'm also glad he did not get his hands on Demandred's sa'angreal, or the Pattern would have dealt him the same fate as Egwene. There were too many comments/signs on how wielding obscene amounts of power could drive you insane for me to be comfortable with Logain getting that sa'angreal and using it to show the world how powerful he was.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

 

me="<p">"1357758431">

>The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen<

/p>either.

Min's viewing of "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", WOs' dream of "you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see" and Nicola's Foretelling of "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.", they are all the same thing. And it is fulfilled with Rand's fake death and his three women knowing about it. You can easily say that does not satisfy you but you can't really say it is not fulfilled.

 

Agree about Moiraine, she didn't do much.

 

We saw the start of Logain's glory. It is not glory in war, that's actually one of the themes in the series. There is little glory to be found in battles. Logain now knows this.

There is little glory through forcing your will on other , that's what Logain learned , he learned you didn't have to be the most powerful you just needed to do the right thing .

+1.

 

The man was just dragged through hell and resisted what no other Asha'man or Aes Sedai had resisted to that point. It took mere hours, or less, to force others to turn - he had been through this for weeks. He had a stronger will than any of them to make it through that without breaking.

 

Oddly, I saw a parallel between him and Egwene here. In this book, he was at the point Egwene was at after having been rescued from the Seanchan - remember how paranoid she was? And how determined she was to attack anyone who meant to exert their will on her? Hell, she almost ended up getting captured again, along with Nyn and Elayne in the process, because she couldn't control herself long enough to get to safety. She attacked the friendliest Whitecloak there was on her way back to the Tower due to her paranoia/PTSD. As much as she despised the Seanchan, Logain despised the Aes Sedai and Shadow because of what was done to him. The difference is that he had the bond to Gabrelle and could feel she was being sincere in her concern for him.

 

I had heard other people claim, but never really believed until now, that Egwene's quest to control everyone was more about not being controlled than about having that power itself. Logain's desire for power was obviously from that desire - he did not want to suffer at the hands of Aes Sedai or Darkfriends or anyone else ever again, and the only way to achieve that was mass amounts of power so no one dared challenge him. I think that the same desire may have actually driven Egwene to make many of the choices she did as well. It was never as clear in her POV, in my opinion - it just seemed she was an arrogant bitch who thought she knew everything and wanted to cow everyone around her - but with Logain, I see the parallels, because Logain's pain and fear over what happened to him is laid bare, as are his motives. I think Logain suffered far more at the hands of Taim and his men than Egwene ever did with the Seanchan or at the WT (spankings are spankings, damn it, and Elaida had given orders not to break her spirit, so I got sick of hearing how it was like what Rand suffered), but the similarities are very in-your-face.

 

I'm glad that Logain understood, in the end, that it wasn't conquering or forcing people into kneeling to him that would get him where he wished to be. I'm also glad he did not get his hands on Demandred's sa'angreal, or the Pattern would have dealt him the same fate as Egwene. There were too many comments/signs on how wielding obscene amounts of power could drive you insane for me to be comfortable with Logain getting that sa'angreal and using it to show the world how powerful he was.

 

Hell Weather Report Service: We're freezing! Help!

[Guest Thaosyr23]

The Tinkers never found their song....

[Viperswhip]

Most of us believe it's because it didn't exist. They probably misremember the song of growing.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

me="<p">"1357758431">

>The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen</p>either.

Min's viewing of "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", WOs' dream of "you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see" and Nicola's Foretelling of "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.", they are all the same thing. And it is fulfilled with Rand's fake death and his three women knowing about it. You can easily say that does not satisfy you but you can't really say it is not fulfilled.

 

Agree about Moiraine, she didn't do much.

 

We saw the start of Logain's glory. It is not glory in war, that's actually one of the themes in the series. There is little glory to be found in battles. Logain now knows this.

There is little glory through forcing your will on other , that's what Logain learned , he learned you didn't have to be the most powerful you just needed to do the right thing .

+1.

 

The man was just dragged through hell and resisted what no other Asha'man or Aes Sedai had resisted to that point. It took mere hours, or less, to force others to turn - he had been through this for weeks. He had a stronger will than any of them to make it through that without breaking.

 

Oddly, I saw a parallel between him and Egwene here. In this book, he was at the point Egwene was at after having been rescued from the Seanchan - remember how paranoid she was? And how determined she was to attack anyone who meant to exert their will on her? Hell, she almost ended up getting captured again, along with Nyn and Elayne in the process, because she couldn't control herself long enough to get to safety. She attacked the friendliest Whitecloak there was on her way back to the Tower due to her paranoia/PTSD. As much as she despised the Seanchan, Logain despised the Aes Sedai and Shadow because of what was done to him. The difference is that he had the bond to Gabrelle and could feel she was being sincere in her concern for him.

 

I had heard other people claim, but never really believed until now, that Egwene's quest to control everyone was more about not being controlled than about having that power itself. Logain's desire for power was obviously from that desire - he did not want to suffer at the hands of Aes Sedai or Darkfriends or anyone else ever again, and the only way to achieve that was mass amounts of power so no one dared challenge him. I think that the same desire may have actually driven Egwene to make many of the choices she did as well. It was never as clear in her POV, in my opinion - it just seemed she was an arrogant bitch who thought she knew everything and wanted to cow everyone around her - but with Logain, I see the parallels, because Logain's pain and fear over what happened to him is laid bare, as are his motives. I think Logain suffered far more at the hands of Taim and his men than Egwene ever did with the Seanchan or at the WT (spankings are spankings, damn it, and Elaida had given orders not to break her spirit, so I got sick of hearing how it was like what Rand suffered), but the similarities are very in-your-face.

 

I'm glad that Logain understood, in the end, that it wasn't conquering or forcing people into kneeling to him that would get him where he wished to be. I'm also glad he did not get his hands on Demandred's sa'angreal, or the Pattern would have dealt him the same fate as Egwene. There were too many comments/signs on how wielding obscene amounts of power could drive you insane for me to be comfortable with Logain getting that sa'angreal and using it to show the world how powerful he was.

Hell Weather Report Service: We're freezing! Help!

Ha. Indeed. That's happened a couple says in a row with liltempest and I.

[MrJade]

Most of us believe it's because it didn't exist. They probably misremember the song of growing.

It would not have been hard for them to have heard the song of growing from Rand (he obviously knows it). That, I think, is just an oversight. The book spent too much time languishing on details.

 

That or else it was supposed to be in one of the outrigger sequels we aren't getting. It seems fairly logical that Rand (Moridin) would have shown up in the sequels. Too many people know about him to not let him show up, and I truly doubt that we won't ever see those sequels. Money is a powerful incentive. Look at George Lucas.

[lsm]

i guess it's safe to assume that the encyclopedia is going to be that extra bit a lot of us wanted out of the epilogue, and then some? since there won't be any outriggers or prequels, in the near future anyway. and seeing how it will be encyclopedic, as in not a story, i wonder how many fans in the series will actually bother to get it. i know i will, great reading material about this huge world!

 

there's so much people would like to know about. so many stories, there's the entire political situation of randland and what will happen there, all the quotes of places from the 4th age in the series, loials book which thankfully gets written so there's going to be a real legacy left at least early on, and not to forget shara there's a lot of info we need out of that place now, or least we could really appreciate knowing.

 

seanchan we know is in chaos, and isle of madmen if it even exists, both places less so important but would still be nice in an encyclopedia... and so much more, especially all those interesting characters we all would like to know more about

 

at least it's pretty much confirmed it will come out right? about 1-2 years off?

[Suttree]

Viper has the right of it. RJ stated flat out there is no "song". There is the voice talent however and that will certainly be rediscovered.

[MarkDiLillo]

I took Rand singing near Tuon as Brandon's little bow to the song.

[Trueself]

Rand did later think on it. There were hints before in ToM and it was confirmed in AMoL. See Terez's post above as well.

 

I don't remember Rand thinking about it later on? I remember thinking when Moridin said it that he just didn't know Rand could do it and worked out how he himself would have done it. Rand being able to see who is a darkfriend is not unprecedented. He saw the cords connected to Asmodean and cut them.

[Suttree]

 Rand being able to see who is a darkfriend is not unprecedented. He saw the cords connected to Asmodean and cut them.

Two totally unrelated things.

[Trueself]

They are unrelated, but it means Rand being able to see connections to the dark one is not unprecedented.

[jwsel]

Honestly, I loved the book. Things that I would have liked more time spent on:

• Epilogue. Yes, I know some of you hate the anti-climactic ending of Return of the King, but seeing as I spent nearly 20 years of my life wrapped up in this wonderful story, I'd have loved more closure. Not another hundred pages, maybe not even fifty. Just a little more. Tell me about Lan, Nynaeve, Galad, Thom and Moraine.
• Speaking of Moraine, I had hoped to see more action involving her. After her helping Rand with the Accords of Merrilor , she doesn't really do much else.
• Verin and Alanna. The letters, the secrets, etc.
• Rand's harem: How did they know? When did they scheme this all out? How did the whole swap occur. Rand knew enough to have Alivia help him out. When oh when did the ladies get in on the plan?

There's more. I'll have to read and reread this to absorb it all. I laughed at times, my heart was in my throat at others, and there are probably a million things left unanswered that just don't come to mind yet, but my mind is still trying to take it all in.

 

I agree with all of these. 

 

I hated that we didn't get much between Nynaeve and Lan.  There was no scene between them before the Last Battle, she never seemed to react to what he was going through, and they didn't really get a reunion scene after the battle, just a few lines.  I understand that showing Nynaeve's reaction to Lan sheathing the sword could have spoiled things (though it could have been handled in a way that it didn't, such as from Moraine's POV seeing Nynaeve be affected), but it just felt like their relationship was given so little attention.  It was mostly limited to Lan sending his love to her through their bond, and I'm not even sure we ever got a sense of whether Nynaeve felt that. It also annoyed me that Lan and Nynaeve wore crowns at Rand's funeral.  Wouldn't the crowning of the "uncrowned" King of Malkier have been a big deal?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

People are forgetting that the book covers a relatively short space of time, between the ending of ToM and AmoL very little time has passed, maybe a few days at best. and once we resume things it kicks off into high gear fairly fast with the sacking of Caemyln.  Most of the little plot points we are talking about would be pretty hard to squeeze into the middle of such events. 

 

I admit the whole issue around Verin and the letters was a little annoying but, was also mostly forgotten. 

 

Now it also occurs to me that the characters were very much forced to set aside smaller, petty events for the larger whole, the battle, and in a way the reader has been forced to do the same. we only reflect upon the smaller details because the war is over. 

 

When reading and when i was engrossed into the book my focus was not on verin, or shaido or even alana. 

 

*shrug*

 

Probs putting my ideas out a bit poorly but i thought the books did just fine. plenty of secrets revealed and plenty of resolution. the world lives, the wheel rolls on and most of the forces of light survived. 

 

 

[Christina Gleason]

People are forgetting that the book covers a relatively short space of time, between the ending of ToM and AmoL very little time has passed, maybe a few days at best. 

 One day. By the end of ToM, they were meeting "tomorrow" at the FoM.

[Jhirrad]

 

And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

She was designed and enacted to be theory fodder. Nothing more.

 

Brandon was actually asked very specifically about Nakomi last night at the signing in Chicago. His response was basically, "She came from very deep in RJ's notes, was a character that had to be there, but not someone that I think RJ would want me to go into a lot of detail about." He did say there's a chance that she'll be fleshed out/explained more in the upcoming encyclopedia, but made no promises on that matter.

[MarkDiLillo]

God thats so irritating.  The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.