Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Jonrox]

I always focused on Demandred saying his reign was secured and he was gathering his armies.  To me, that meant that he was either Roedran or in Shara because there really isn't anywhere else to go.  Roedran always seemed like a weak option since, even in the best circumstanes, Murandy simply couldn't marshall enough power to be of any note.

 

Of course, saying "I bet Demandred is in Shara" isn't really the same as saying "I know who Demandre'd alter ego is"

[Hopefire]

 

It occurs to me that I haven't seen anyone mention Shadar Haran. How far does he make it?

[Axon]

It occurs to me that I haven't seen anyone mention Shadar Haran. How far does he make it?

 

He was mentioned earlier.  He's not around much, since the DO is front and center.  

[Sarlic]

I'm pretty sure Moridin kills him off-screen, before Rand arrives in the Pit of Doom.

[Arc]

Nobody has spoken yet of the Sea Folk. Can it truly be that the bargain they made with the dragon was all they had to do concerning the LB? All of their prophecies just for that?

And what about the discussion about red sails attacking Seanchan in first chapter of ToM? 

[GuyangMao]

Nobody has spoken yet of the Sea Folk. Can it truly be that the bargain they made with the dragon was all they had to do concerning the LB? All of their prophecies just for that?

And what about the discussion about red sails attacking Seanchan in first chapter of ToM? 

 

When has the wind blowing sequence ever been about anything but scene setting?  (Don't answer that, Terez)

[Jeck]

Why does Min follow Tuon and Mat? 

[dfchang]

I guess I am the only person who cares, but I have always wondered about the Tuatha'an (Tinkers). Can anyone tell me what happened to them? Most importantly did they ever find the song?

 

They  pitch in to help move wounded after the battle, salvage what equipment they can.  There is a small exchange between the parents of Aram where the father says the Way of the Leaf is for him but he will think a little less harshly of those who take up arms to fight since without them, he wouldn't be able to practice the Way of the Leaf.   A little philosophical nod to pacifism/anti-war vs sometimes there being a need to fight.  RJ or Brandon?  Don't know.

[dfchang]

Nobody has spoken yet of the Sea Folk. Can it truly be that the bargain they made with the dragon was all they had to do concerning the LB? All of their prophecies just for that?

And what about the discussion about red sails attacking Seanchan in first chapter of ToM? 

 

That Bowl of the Winds storyline that I remember many of us lashing to pieces turns out to be critical.  The Sea Folk channelers spend most of their time using the Bowl of the Winds to counteract the Dark One's attempt to use the weather to destroy all the forces of Llght at Shayol Ghul.  So the Sea Folk in that respect is critical.

 

If you're talking about the rank and file, the Last Battle is a land war so the ships really have very little to offer.  Obviously in terms of supply, munitions, food, etc they are critical earlier but not so much in the actual fighting.

 

It is pretty amazing when you stop and think about it how SOOOO  many elements have to be in the perfect place at the perfect time for Rand to even have a CHANCE to defeat the Dark One.  One little thing is off and the whole thing blows up in their face.  Perhaps that's the Creator's way of balancing the direct interference of the Dark One on the Pattern?  The use of ta'veren and chance?

[dfchang]

I'm pretty sure Moridin kills him off-screen, before Rand arrives in the Pit of Doom.

 

Moridin doesn't kill him, at least that's now that I got from my reading of it.   Shaidar Haran was merely a vessel for the Dark One's essence when the Seals were stilll somewhat functional.   By aMoL things have gotten so bad and the Seals are so brittle that the Dark One no longer needs Shaidar Haran.  There is an inky absolute blackness that is the Dark One's essence which came out of Haran and left the Fade like a sort of dried out husk or discarded skin.

[athrian]

From what I gather from reading these threads, the DO and Rand battle each other by trying to re-weave reality. It sounds like the DO attempts to remake reality with no rules or morals, ie everyone is "evil". My question though is, haven't we been lead to believe the DO actually wants to destroy everything?

 

When we get insight to Moridin (Ishmael's) perspective throughout the series, he has turned to the Shadow because of his belief of the inevitability of victory and he's tired of reliving this struggle over the course of the turning of the Wheel. He wants it all to end; the DO wins, the wheel is broken, people stop being reborn, basically everything just gets destroyed. Rand in fact almost makes this happen in VoG, thinking something along the lines of "what if He is right, what if it's better to just end it all" before his revelation.

 

The other Forsaken believe in this reality the DO attempts to create, where they rule over a world that is just dominated by the Shadow. I had thought though the DO's true motive was to destroy everything; Moridin certainly seemed to think so. Does everything in AMoL basically mean Moiridin was wrong about what the DO ultimately wants to achieve?

[dfchang]

Why does Min follow Tuon and Mat? 

 

Apparently someon who can see visions like Min is a great rarity and very prized in Seanchan society.  Tuon makes Min her Truthspeaker.  She is given more respect and status than anyone in Seanchan society except Tuon and perhaps Mat himself.  In any case, Min stays on during the Last Battle to keep an eye on Tuon.  After we're never told exactly what Min plans to do but it's implied she may stay with them since leaving Tuon as Truthspeaker might get . . . complicated.

[dfchang]

From what I gather from reading these threads, the DO and Rand battle each other by trying to re-weave reality. It sounds like the DO attempts to remake reality with no rules or morals, ie everyone is "evil". My question though is, haven't we been lead to believe the DO actually wants to destroy everything?

 

When we get insight to Moridin (Ishmael's) perspective throughout the series, he has turned to the Shadow because of his belief of the inevitability of victory and he's tired of reliving this struggle over the course of the turning of the Wheel. He wants it all to end; the DO wins, the wheel is broken, people stop being reborn, basically everything just gets destroyed. Rand in fact almost makes this happen in VoG, thinking something along the lines of "what if He is right, what if it's better to just end it all" before his revelation.

 

The other Forsaken believe in this reality the DO attempts to create, where they rule over a world that is just dominated by the Shadow. I had thought though the DO's true motive was to destroy everything; Moridin certainly seemed to think so. Does everything in AMoL basically mean Moiridin was wrong about what the DO ultimately wants to achieve?

 

No, it's a bit more complicated than that.  The Dark One wants to BREAK Rand to get him to give in to despair . . . essentially give up.  Part of doing this is to inflict tremendous pain and suffering on him.  The Dark One's essence actually tries to rip Rand's essence or "soul" if you will into shreds.  Part of that effort involves weaving the threads of "what if?" into worlds to drive Rand into despair and insanity.  Think of it as a huge twisted jacked up Accepted's test.

 

Rand in retaliation uses HIS power to similarly weave realities that show the opposite of the Dark One, where there is hope and life and goodness.  The two of them essentially take turns SHOWING each other visions and having a bit of a philosophical show-down about which vision of reality and the future is more "realistic" more likely, superior, etc.

 

So the Dark One shows a world where he wins.  Rand shows a world where HE wins.  The Dark One shows a world where there is no Good.  Rand shows a world where there is no Evil (i.e. no Dark One he's been killed) and doesn't wind up liking what he sees.

 

Then the Dark One offers a truce when he can't break Rand.  How about neither?  Just oblivion, absolute blackness, no good, no evil, no Pattern, nothing.  Rand turns that down too.

 

After that, the Dark One gives up showing "what if" worlds and just shows Rand all the people he cares about dying for him in the Last Battle and how hopeless the situation looks.

 

The Dark One absolutely does want to destroy the current Pattern.  Rand of course is in the way.  Once he breaks the Dragon and wins, he'll rip free, destroy the Pattern and then he can pretty much re-weave the Pattern to his desire.  Either one in which he is victorious or one where the mere concept of Good does not exist.

 

My beef with that vision by the way is it would necessitate destroying the CREATOR not the Pattern right?   The Dark One is the essense of evil but the Pattern isn't the essence of GOOD is it?  So even if the Dark One wins and destroys the Pattern to remake it in his image, I'm not sure if he CAN create a Pattern without Good since destroying the Creator should be beyond him.  At this point the best that he can do is a Pattern where he wins but if there is to be balance and the Creator still exists, then it can be argued that eventually Good will/must rise again.

 

The actual ending of aMoL actually is pretty true to Rand's vision where they win but the Dark One isn't destroyed. . . . i.e. he is re-Sealed.  There is great prosperity in the land and peace.  But since the Dark One still exists, albeit sealed away from the Pattern, the capacity for evil still exists.  And we know that eventually, as the Wheel turns, a bore will be opened again he will rise to threaten the Pattern again, etc, etc.

 

I fail to see how a scenario where the Dark One then WINS but still allows the Creator to exist would have any different outcome.  A few thousand years of sucky evil but eventually Good will returnn to redress the balance.

 

At least that's how I interpreted things.  shrug.

[Zefram]

So, at the end, Rand basically rides into sunset promising "visits" to Min, Aviendha and Elayne and quite probably eventually getting both Aviendha and Min with kids and taking responsibility for none of his kids. (As based by Aviendha experience both her kids and Elayne kids knew they were Dragon Reborn children but they didn't relate to each other as siblings nor they had any relationships with Rand. As Aviendha experienced being in head of her daughter, she thought of talking with her and with Rhuarc and with other Wise One and Chiefs but nothing about talking or having been taught by Rand anything).

Thats pretty sweet deal for him.

[GuyangMao]

So, at the end, Rand basically rides into sunset promising "visits" to Min, Aviendha and Elayne and quite probably eventually getting both Aviendha and Min with kids and taking responsibility for none of his kids. (As based by Aviendha experience both her kids and Elayne kids knew they were Dragon Reborn children but they didn't relate to each other as siblings nor they had any relationships with Rand. As Aviendha experienced being in head of her daughter, she thought of talking with her and with Rhuarc and with other Wise One and Chiefs but nothing about talking or having been taught by Rand anything). Thats pretty sweet deal for him.

 

That was the path taken that only happened if Rand was never successfully tied to the Aiel blood (the chief signifier of which was that he never understood what to do with the Aiel in his Dragon's Peace).

[fionwe1987]

 

From what I gather from reading these threads, the DO and Rand battle each other by trying to re-weave reality. It sounds like the DO attempts to remake reality with no rules or morals, ie everyone is "evil". My question though is, haven't we been lead to believe the DO actually wants to destroy everything?

 

When we get insight to Moridin (Ishmael's) perspective throughout the series, he has turned to the Shadow because of his belief of the inevitability of victory and he's tired of reliving this struggle over the course of the turning of the Wheel. He wants it all to end; the DO wins, the wheel is broken, people stop being reborn, basically everything just gets destroyed. Rand in fact almost makes this happen in VoG, thinking something along the lines of "what if He is right, what if it's better to just end it all" before his revelation.

 

The other Forsaken believe in this reality the DO attempts to create, where they rule over a world that is just dominated by the Shadow. I had thought though the DO's true motive was to destroy everything; Moridin certainly seemed to think so. Does everything in AMoL basically mean Moiridin was wrong about what the DO ultimately wants to achieve?

 

No, it's a bit more complicated than that.  The Dark One wants to BREAK Rand to get him to give in to despair . . . essentially give up.  Part of doing this is to inflict tremendous pain and suffering on him.  The Dark One's essence actually tries to rip Rand's essence or "soul" if you will into shreds.  Part of that effort involves weaving the threads of "what if?" into worlds to drive Rand into despair and insanity.  Think of it as a huge twisted jacked up Accepted's test.

 

Rand in retaliation uses HIS power to similarly weave realities that show the opposite of the Dark One, where there is hope and life and goodness.  The two of them essentially take turns SHOWING each other visions and having a bit of a philosophical show-down about which vision of reality and the future is more "realistic" more likely, superior, etc.

 

So the Dark One shows a world where he wins.  Rand shows a world where HE wins.  The Dark One shows a world where there is no Good.  Rand shows a world where there is no Evil (i.e. no Dark One he's been killed) and doesn't wind up liking what he sees.

 

Then the Dark One offers a truce when he can't break Rand.  How about neither?  Just oblivion, absolute blackness, no good, no evil, no Pattern, nothing.  Rand turns that down too.

 

After that, the Dark One gives up showing "what if" worlds and just shows Rand all the people he cares about dying for him in the Last Battle and how hopeless the situation looks.

 

The Dark One absolutely does want to destroy the current Pattern.  Rand of course is in the way.  Once he breaks the Dragon and wins, he'll rip free, destroy the Pattern and then he can pretty much re-weave the Pattern to his desire.  Either one in which he is victorious or one where the mere concept of Good does not exist.

 

My beef with that vision by the way is it would necessitate destroying the CREATOR not the Pattern right?   The Dark One is the essense of evil but the Pattern isn't the essence of GOOD is it?  So even if the Dark One wins and destroys the Pattern to remake it in his image, I'm not sure if he CAN create a Pattern without Good since destroying the Creator should be beyond him.  At this point the best that he can do is a Pattern where he wins but if there is to be balance and the Creator still exists, then it can be argued that eventually Good will/must rise again.

 

The actual ending of aMoL actually is pretty true to Rand's vision where they win but the Dark One isn't destroyed. . . . i.e. he is re-Sealed.  There is great prosperity in the land and peace.  But since the Dark One still exists, albeit sealed away from the Pattern, the capacity for evil still exists.  And we know that eventually, as the Wheel turns, a bore will be opened again he will rise to threaten the Pattern again, etc, etc.

 

I fail to see how a scenario where the Dark One then WINS but still allows the Creator to exist would have any different outcome.  A few thousand years of sucky evil but eventually Good will returnn to redress the balance.

 

At least that's how I interpreted things.  shrug.

You interpreted right. The vision in which the DO wins, and Nynaeve, Egwene, etc. are Dreadlords, you still have people who're good. They're just oppressed, and I guess they're the equivalents of Darkfriends in todays world.

[ranjitb]

Well, we are spared a Millenium long rule by the great All-Mother Egwene. Of course, the ultimate Mary-Sue still gets to go out in a blaze of glory saving everyone and everything. Blegh.

[EvelynneWeakley]

Can I ask about the Dragon bowing to the Seanchan Empress or vice versa?  Is that dealt with at all?

[meeker]

I am wondering what the GRRM moment was.  Sure a lot of people died but they pretty much all went out in blazes of glory, which is not at all GRRM.  The Great Captains would be my buest guess but that still does not sit right with me.

 

Overall though I am still processing my thoughts on this.  Everything just felt so rushed and too much just happened and felt forced, with no explanation, just to move on to resolve the next thread.  Even things that were great twists, like the Great Captains were shoved down our throats at breakneck pace.  It happens to all four of them with no warning at the exact same time with the exact same results in a matter of pages.  Four major armies of the light devestated instantly.  Those four fights, with everything else going on, could have supplied enough material for a great book.  Instead, if you blinked, you would have missed it.  This was the case for much of what happened. 

[nalattam]

Would someone mind answering if the epilogue ended with a signature by the "author" Loial son of Arent son of Halan? Or if there was any mention of his book about Rand's life?

[meeker]

Would someone mind answering if the epilogue ended with a signature by the "author" Loial son of Arent son of Halan? Or if there was any mention of his book about Rand's life?

 

There is a quote from his book at the end.

[ScoundreltheToy]

Thought this book was the worst  yet.  Pretty much every character is the same.

 

The book is just one big fight with every character pretty much doing the same thing.  Character X fights a trolloc and kills a few.  Next character 2 pages later does the same thing.  The only 'characters' that he even seemed like he tried to make them characters were Mat and Androl.  Mat gets praise about how great a general he is but all you ever see is Mat send an order here, send an order there and the characters are like, "Wow he's such a genius."  Or...I don't know about this Cauthon guy.  Demandrads thoughts, "I've gotta be fighting Lews Therin because no mortal of this Age could be so good!"

 

Ok, wonderful...but why does everyone merely think this?  All I ever saw was Tam shoots his bow and doesn't miss.  3 Pages of this and next PoV switches to Lan hacking people with his sword cuz he's so good and throw in some words about how tired he is because of all the fighting.  2 Pages later...next PoV...about as bland as can be.  Next PoV, same ol' thing except perhaps they're fighting some shara with strange axes and maybe in this PoV a message will fall out of the sky saying "go here and do this" and the characters like WoW, this general is so good!  Rinse and repeat this for pretty much the whole book.

 

What is Rand doing?  He pretty much does nothing except see mirror realities and has some tea with the dark one while Nynaeve and Moiraine just kinda chill.  Perrin?  He goes around in the wolf dream in the flesh, fights Slayer for a few pages here and there to fill chapters in the book while lanfear shows up sometimes to feed him information.  Perrin defeats slayer, hoorah.  It was SO exciting.

 

To sum up, this book was pretty much:  2-4 pages of a PoV of a character hacking away at a trolloc or some other enemy.  Switch to another PoV rinse and repeat.  Soo bland!  You can never really get into a character because all it is is the character fights a little for a few pages and switch to next one.  Very disapointed in this book.  VERY!  After the intial honeymoon wears off with people,  I think the criticism will come in droves for how generic it all comes off...stale.

[Callandora]

Thought this book was the worst  yet.  Pretty much every character is the same.

 

The book is just one big fight with every character pretty much doing the same thing.  Character X fights a trolloc and kills a few.  Next character 2 pages later does the same thing.  The only 'characters' that he even seemed like he tried to make them characters were Mat and Androl.  Mat gets praise about how great a general he is but all you ever see is Mat send an order here, send an order there and the characters are like, "Wow he's such a genius."  Or...I don't know about this Cauthon guy.  Demandrads thoughts, "I've gotta be fighting Lews Therin because no mortal of this Age could be so good!"

 

Ok, wonderful...but why does everyone merely think this?  All I ever saw was Tam shoots his bow and doesn't miss.  3 Pages of this and next PoV switches to Lan hacking people with his sword cuz he's so good and throw in some words about how tired he is because of all the fighting.  2 Pages later...next PoV...about as bland as can be.  Next PoV, same ol' thing except perhaps they're fighting some shara with strange axes and maybe in this PoV a message will fall out of the sky saying "go here and do this" and the characters like WoW, this general is so good!  Rinse and repeat this for pretty much the whole book.

 

What is Rand doing?  He pretty much does nothing except see mirror realities and has some tea with the dark one while Nynaeve and Moiraine just kinda chill.  Perrin?  He goes around in the wolf dream in the flesh, fights Slayer for a few pages here and there to fill chapters in the book while lanfear shows up sometimes to feed him information.  Perrin defeats slayer, hoorah.  It was SO exciting.

 

To sum up, this book was pretty much:  2-4 pages of a PoV of a character hacking away at a trolloc or some other enemy.  Switch to another PoV rinse and repeat.  Soo bland!  You can never really get into a character because all it is is the character fights a little for a few pages and switch to next one.  Very disapointed in this book.  VERY!  After the intial honeymoon wears off with people,  I think the criticism will come in droves for how generic it all comes off...stale.

Haha it sure sounds like you didn't like it

[nalattam]

thanks meeker

[dfchang]

Can I ask about the Dragon bowing to the Seanchan Empress or vice versa?  Is that dealt with at all?

 

He bows on one knew and offers his hand in peace.  It's a show of humility as well as grace and I don't believe anyone there Tuon included really interpreted that to mean he was subservient to her.

 

Peace was offered and with a little nudge from Mat, peace was accepted.  The Dragon Reborn bound the Seanchan to him by bowing to the Crystal Throne (Fortuona) in essence.