Prologue Through to the End of Chapter 15

[Luckers]

Discuss.

[streetb]

Just finished chapter 15.  I'm really hooked, but I know that I have to sleep at some point so I felt this might be a good stopping point.

 

I am seriously intrigued at what Lanfear is up to and how that's going to play. 

 

I also want to know about Moirraine and Cadsuane seeing eachother.  After NS i thought there should have been a few more fireworks.  Also, moirraine hasn't changed much at all.

 

Mat's character seems almost back to normal, so I'm really looking forward to how his plot line is going.

 

Argh... tomorrow is going to be a long day at work.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

Just finished chapter 15. 

Mat's character seems almost back to normal, so I'm really looking forward to how his plot line is going.

 

Ya, that is such a relief. It does fell like BS has a better grasp of how he should be written now.

 

In Chapter 13(end of p.277) it's not clear how Perrin learns of the gateway problem around the Black Tower, but it makes sense that he could have learned this info.

 

Chapter 15:

p.317 the whole "natural birth" thing. I think Mat's thoughts are correct but I'm not sure. Imagine a baby Myrddraal; creepiest baby ever!

[fionwe1987]

 

Just finished chapter 15. 

Mat's character seems almost back to normal, so I'm really looking forward to how his plot line is going.

 

Ya, that is such a relief. It does fell like BS has a better grasp of how he should be written now.

 

In Chapter 13(end of p.277) it's not clear how Perrin learns of the gateway problem around the Black Tower, but it makes sense that he could have learned this info.

 

Chapter 15:

p.317 the whole "natural birth" thing. I think Mat's thoughts are correct but I'm not sure. Imagine a baby Myrddraal; creepiest baby ever!

Perrin learns through Grady, who wasn't able to open a Gateway to meet his wife when he asked for a few days off in ToM.

 

As for Mat, he sounds better, but I'm confused at the reversal of character development here. Why is he running from the LB, again? In KoD, he had come to accept that he would be fighting the LB. That was a major motivation for him pushing Aludra for the Dragons. He also expects to be on the field opposing the Seanchan, which again makes no sense given his thoughts in early aMoL.

 

Just plain weird regression.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

Perrin learns through Grady, who wasn't able to open a Gateway to meet his wife when he asked for a few days off in ToM.

 

Ah! My bad. ;)

 

As for Mat, there is a slight regression but at least the tone of his voice is OK. He just seems to be mentally stalling for time. His thoughts are too explicitly anti-fighting that it seemed clear to me he knows it's coming. An unavoidable event. Back to reading for me...

[dfchang]

I thought about that too.

 

Mat knows he is being pulled to Rand and his natural stubborn streak may be making him resist that out of principle.

 

Also, I got the feeling he was going to Tuon more than moving away from Rand whatever his internal thoughts (he is an unreliable narrator after all). 

 

Finally, it could be Rand needs Mat to be with Tuon in Ebou Dar and so there you go.

 

It also sets up Egwene's decision when she thinks about Mat's character and actions and ultimately decides to trust him. 

 

Could be also that old habits are hard to break but whatever his words, I never seriously bought that he was trying to run from the Last Battle . . .

[Rand the Plumber]

I was going to go to bed after reading chapter 3, but you know how it is.

 

Some of the witticisms from some of the characters I would not expect (at least, not necessarily in that form), are irritating me.  Mat seems better, though.

 

Hmm.  Lanfear?  Hmm.

[TheGraveIsNoBar]

What's with Lanfear? The whole "I'm fond of you" thing threw me a bit - when did she cross paths with Perrin?

 

It feels very fast - like it was written to get to the end ASAP. Not much development - things are just revealed. Maybe it feels to fast because I know it's the last one and I'm trying to stretch it out!

[fionwe1987]

What's with Lanfear? The whole "I'm fond of you" thing threw me a bit - when did she cross paths with Perrin?

 

It feels very fast - like it was written to get to the end ASAP. Not much development - things are just revealed. Maybe it feels to fast because I know it's the last one and I'm trying to stretch it out!

She met and interacted with Perrin in TAR in tDR.

[cornichon]

Yeah, the Lanfear thing is weird.  She has that whole scene with Rand and then tries to convince Perrin that she's just a victim of circumstance?  What path to the kind of power Lanfear wants could Perrin provide?  I found the whole thing odd.

 

I don't like Mat "running away" either.  I choose to think that he's exactly where he needs to be and that his reconnection with Tuon will smooth Seanchan buy-in with the Dragon's Peace.

[cornichon]

oops - double post

[TheGraveIsNoBar]

Thanks - forgotten tDR bit. Will be re- reading yet again once AMoL is finished

[cornichon]

One tiny thing:  when Rand was in his "dreamshard" and talked about someone placing a cave there, was anyone else thinking "Dagobah Dark Side cave"?

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

 thinking "Dagobah Dark Side cave"

 

lol, hadn't thought of that. Imagine Moridin goes up to Rand and says "no, I am your father!"

[Suttree]

As for Mat, he sounds better, but I'm confused at the reversal of character development here. Why is he running from the LB, again? In KoD, he had come to accept that he would be fighting the LB. That was a major motivation for him pushing Aludra for the Dragons. He also expects to be on the field opposing the Seanchan, which again makes no sense given his thoughts in early aMoL.

 

Just plain weird regression.

Is this really much of  a surprise at this point? We have seen that type of weird flip flopping constantly in these last three books. Possibly due to things being stretched out after the split, although yeah...odd happening this late in the game.

 

Wanted to touch on Lanfear real quick as well. Seems as if Rand/LTT has a pretty firm handle on her character. Her jumping in to help Perrin feels like some sort of scheme or self preservation. I never subscribed in the slightest to the "turning back to the light" theory but she is certainly making things interesting.

[stgermaine]

Yeah, BS had to find a reason for Mat to get back to Tuon to take control of the armies and be there when Rand showed up, so he can lead them to the LB (not a spoiler, i am only on chapter 16). It was probably easier than finding a new reason for Mat to be off doing his own thing. If only they (Rand/Mat/Perrin) would actually communicate with each other, things would be soooo much easier. Men! *braid tug* *sigh* *arms folded beneath breasts*

[Tollingtoy]

I thought about that too.

 

Mat knows he is being pulled to Rand and his natural stubborn streak may be making him resist that out of principle.

 

Also, I got the feeling he was going to Tuon more than moving away from Rand whatever his internal thoughts (he is an unreliable narrator after all). 

 

Finally, it could be Rand needs Mat to be with Tuon in Ebou Dar and so there you go.

 

It also sets up Egwene's decision when she thinks about Mat's character and actions and ultimately decides to trust him. 

 

Could be also that old habits are hard to break but whatever his words, I never seriously bought that he was trying to run from the Last Battle . . .

 

I was confused by this at first too, but if you think about it--each of the 4 Great Captains are fighting on a front.  Mat would likely be the 5th Great Captain if you were ranking them, so it makes sense for him to be with the Seanchan even if he doesn't know why he's headed there

[driedraspberry]

BT plots been so slow. But damn. Finally!

 

Worried about Gaul. Perrin's sidekicks end tragically. And now in TAR death without rebirth, so I'm legit scared now.

[csarmi]

Anyone has som chapter summaries written up? I spent some of chapters 12-15 asleep, I just don't know how much (yea you shouldn't listen to audiobboks at 2am).

[esvath]

Yeah, BS had to find a reason for Mat to get back to Tuon to take control of the armies and be there when Rand showed up, so he can lead them to the LB (not a spoiler, i am only on chapter 16). It was probably easier than finding a new reason for Mat to be off doing his own thing. If only they (Rand/Mat/Perrin) would actually communicate with each other, things would be soooo much easier. Men! *braid tug* *sigh* *arms folded beneath breasts*

 

Rand and Perrin did communicate with each other. Rand sent Perrin to deal with Masema by staging a conflict between them, remember. After reunited, they spent some quality moment together. It is Mat who always run, and had to be caught.

[Mik]

I just stopped reading after chapter 14.

 

I felt like I was reading about cardboard puppets 90% of the time. Like how the puppets in the Thunderbirds move and talk.

How shallow it all was; characters, conversation, thoughts, fights, the "plot" moving-,... it breaks my heart.

 

I had to put the book down several times. (the Dragon Peace meeting was appalling / Lanfear - Perrin was eye-clawing, tongue chewing bad)

I don't think I can put into words properly, how disapointed I feel right now.

 

There were so many moments that felt rushed, totally off or downright ridiculous, that a neat Talmames and a few nice moments can't make up for after exactly 300 pages worth of AMoL.

From the top of my head, up untill now, I only liked Talmanes, the start of Leilwin's PoV (just the start...it was moving), Lan's last Stand that became a thunderous charge and the scene where Rand meets Cyndane in his dreamshard.

 

I was horrified by the Dragon Peace meeting (what a farce), the Moiraine come-back, how the Ogier came out of nowhere, the child-like 'feel' of 80% the sentences, the clumsiness of everything related to the Shadow all of a sudden, the Moridin / Rand meeting and the Lanfear / Perrin @ the Black Tower had me close the book and lay it aside.

[Randzor]

Mik,

 

How about the shadow actually being competent?  Preparing for rand at Tarwins gap was freaking awesome!  Yea Mat was a disappointment, but how is someone who never actually experienced war, gonna write a warriors prospective?  I've loved the book so far and it has kept me up way to late over the past few days.  GJ team Jordan, you honestly have exceeded my expectations so far.  I mean how many people thought it was gonna be one huge battle, 109 pages long and boom end of book?  I did, but the constant fighting, the losses, the disappointments, its been amazing to read.

[TheAngryDruid]

I just stopped reading after chapter 14.

 

I felt like I was reading about cardboard puppets 90% of the time. Like how the puppets in the Thunderbirds move and talk.

How shallow it all was; characters, conversation, thoughts, fights, the "plot" moving-,... it breaks my heart.

 

I had to put the book down several times. (the Dragon Peace meeting was appalling / Lanfear - Perrin was eye-clawing, tongue chewing bad)

I don't think I can put into words properly, how disapointed I feel right now.

 

There were so many moments that felt rushed, totally off or downright ridiculous, that a neat Talmames and a few nice moments can't make up for after exactly 300 pages worth of AMoL.

From the top of my head, up untill now, I only liked Talmanes, the start of Leilwin's PoV (just the start...it was moving), Lan's last Stand that became a thunderous charge and the scene where Rand meets Cyndane in his dreamshard.

 

I was horrified by the Dragon Peace meeting (what a farce), the Moiraine come-back, how the Ogier came out of nowhere, the child-like 'feel' of 80% the sentences, the clumsiness of everything related to the Shadow all of a sudden, the Moridin / Rand meeting and the Lanfear / Perrin @ the Black Tower had me close the book and lay it aside.

 

This is closer to how I'm feeling. Really, so many characters have regressed (Mat, Rand) and the Light is acting so stupidly, it is hard to read. I'm 15 chapters in, and I think the book is poor. Not horrible, but close to it.

 

I did like some of the Prologue scenes (Bayrd, Isam, Moggy, Leilwin, and some of the non-slapstick Talamanes). I really got worried during the Talamens scenes when BS seemed to forget about the numbers. Talamanes had hundreds of men, but shouldn't he had around 15,000 (half of the Band?). OK, some attrition getting in, but with only tens (not hundreds) of thousands of Trollocs in Caemlyn (and spread throughout the whole city), it seemed a little off. But in these scenes, the characters weren't acting stupidly. Far from it. Through the first 15 chapters, it had been incredibly bad.

 

First, why is is that Mat took off for Ebou Dar again? Never mind, I guess that isn't important. Never mind that he's the greatest living battle commander around. Why on earth doens't some one send for him, or at least ask where his is, with all this military planning go on? Say he's essential for the Seanchan thing? Well, wouldn't it have made more sense to have him come back to Merrilor, then be sent on instead of regressing (after he's given his eye to save the world)?

 

Speaking of which, the Dragon's Peace scene was awful. AWFUL. Rand regresses. Doesn't explain his reasoning (good idea Perrin, I'll explain it just like that). Both he and Egwene turn into bickering 15 year olds, as do the the rulers of every nation. Until Moiraine appears, with no more words of wisdom than quoting the K cycle, and everyone falls into line? Who is and isn't ta'veren at that meeting?

 

And the military distribution of resources is beyond stupid. So, we make a plan where

 

A) The war will be fought on four fronts

B) The idea is to fight delaying tactics in Kandor and at the Gap, while Elayne tries to take out the smaller enemy force in Caemlyn, and Rand prepares to go into the Blight to face the Dark One with a fourth force. And it all depends on Elayne getting her job done first, then going to help the others.

 

So how do they divvy up their most potent force (channelers)? Apparently, not very well. Lan gets next to nothing, they have to send for help once enemy channelers (and where are they, by the way) finally show up. And Elayne also seems pretty thin, though she has Kinswoman (who I guess are just healing, aw isn't that sweet, with the Last Battle here and all), and a few Wise Ones and a couple Asha'man with Perrin. That is it. Meanwhile, all the Aiel, Cadsuane's group, and most of the Asha'man appear to be with Rand (doing nothing), and out of the 750 or so Aes Sedai and over 1000 novices and Accepted, Egwene rallies all of 100 to fight in Kandor.

 

Nothing from the Aiel of any virtue. Nothing from the Sea Folk. Nothing from the Ahsa'man (many of Logain's faction already been gone from the Tower). And the AS using less than 5% of their actual force in the fighting. Oh, they are all healing. We've seen Aiel channelers in battle (Dumai's Wells). We've seen Sea Folk channelers work to devastating effect (Elayne's resuce). We've seen what Asha'man can do (Dumai's Wells, Rand's battle with the Seanchan). We've seen novices and Accepted perform well under pressure and lend their strength to an AS in battle (Seanchan attack on the Tower). We've seen AS form circles at the slightest hint of an attack and go out to try to help (Rebel Aes Sedai preparations fighting bubbles of evil). In most cases, using those abilities with the One power to aid in military operations.

 

Through chapter 15, we've had none of that. By my estimation, there are well over 3000 channelers available to the light (750 AS, 1000 Novice and Accepted; hundreds of Kinswoman; at least 1000 Aiel channlers, if not more; at least 50 Asha'man (probably more); plus all the Sea Folk have to offer) and they only manage to get around 100 or so in the field in Kandor, with next to nothing for Lan, and really the only channeling aid I've seen for Elayne is healing? And eveyrone else heals?

 

How about this. Take a bunch of channelers down to Caemlyn. Draw them out. Form a bunch of circles, use the angreal there, and wipe them out. Since that is the linchpin of the whole plan, right? Ituralde has shown to be beyond cunning, and Byrne and Bashere very competent. Now they are incompetent hacks?We've seen Rand and a the Asha'man wipe out tens (or was in hundreds?) of thousands of Trollocs at Emarin's (forgot his proper name) manor in Tear, but now we are retreating halfway across nations (Elayne and Lan) with far MORE channelers at our disposal? And with the enemy hardly having shown any channelers of their own?

 

Bah. It is BEYOND STUPID.

 

And that's not even gettin into the trainwreck of the Aviendha/Rand/Moiraine/Dragon's Peace scene in detail. It is just too painful. And how about using some of that ancient knowledge to impart some of the "deepest mysteries of the One Power" we've been hearing so much about to some of the channeler's on your side? Eh? Think that might help? Nah.

 

And, golly, Rand kind of cut it close with Lan, yes? I mean, I know it's been over a month since he promised him aid. And if he always intended to come through, don't you think it would have been smarter? I mean, he still has hundreds of channelers at his disposal. How about a trip to the Gap to say help is on the way. What did Gandalf say to Aragorn, on the (tenth?) day, look for my coming, ... at sunrise? Just hold on a little longer, Lan? Guess it wouldn't bee as dramatic that way, but a LOT more believable. And more interesting. And true to where Rand and Egwene supposedly are, all caring about the people and such. I mean, they only had a month, or more. I guess we'll never know what Rand did there. And, by the way, the Agelmar/Lan scene was bad. Yes, Lan needed to hear it. But it was again the Brandon issue of making one person look stupid (Lan) in order to make another look smart. And wouldn't it have been more poignant if Nyneave had delivered that lecture, not Agelmar? Or if Lan had come to the realization that he wasn't going to his death, but he was going to do one thing before he died, and that was lead the remaining willing Malkieri to battle the DO at the Last Battle and try to spit in his eye on the last day, if nothing else?

 

I'm a lieflong fan, and I'm not saying this to bash Brandon (some of RJs stuff was poor in spots as well), but I must say, I entered this book with low expectations, which were raised a bit by some of the reviews, but I now wonder what is was these people were reading. I hope it gets better after chapter 15, but the main characters act shallowly, stupidly, and seem like cardboard cutouts for the most part. Smart battle commanders act stupidly, and there are obvious things that need to be explained (why is Mar riding south?) that just aren't. And Mat gave up his eye so Moiraine could quote the K cycle to everyone and magically fall into line? My God, why didn't Aviendha and Rand just have an intelligent, grown up discussion about what she saw and the Aiel? No, lets save it for a fly by the seat of the moment reveal in that incredibly sucky scene in the tend! Great idea, that will be awesome!!!!!!

 

If feel like I'm reading a book meant for 12 year-olds. Shallow. Not well though out.

 

The only thing remotely interesting has been the interactions in shard-land between Rand and Moridin and Rand and Lanfear. And wondering what Lanfear may be up to, despite the awkward, and sudden, shift to Perrin again.

 

EDIT: And I do think the solution to the Aiel problem was a good one, if we got there in a silly way. Amazing how things come together when the main characters actually start talking to one another in a meaningful way. But we can spoil the big scene reveal and add some depth, that just wouldn't be as much fun! Barf.

[MarkDiLillo]

Angrydruid:

 

I felt exactly the same way.  HOWEVER, keep reading and the book will pick up dramatically.  Chapter 37 is a gem despite the flaws.  At the end of the day, it is a deeply disappointing book but it is also somewhat satisfying on one level.  For me, the first half of the book was a complete waste of my time to read though.

 

So keep reading IMO.  It does improve.

[Suttree]

I just stopped reading after chapter 14.

 

I felt like I was reading about cardboard puppets 90% of the time. Like how the puppets in the Thunderbirds move and talk.

How shallow it all was; characters, conversation, thoughts, fights, the "plot" moving-,... it breaks my heart.

 

I had to put the book down several times. (the Dragon Peace meeting was appalling / Lanfear - Perrin was eye-clawing, tongue chewing bad)

I don't think I can put into words properly, how disapointed I feel right now.

 

There were so many moments that felt rushed, totally off or downright ridiculous, that a neat Talmames and a few nice moments can't make up for after exactly 300 pages worth of AMoL.

From the top of my head, up untill now, I only liked Talmanes, the start of Leilwin's PoV (just the start...it was moving), Lan's last Stand that became a thunderous charge and the scene where Rand meets Cyndane in his dreamshard.

 

I was horrified by the Dragon Peace meeting (what a farce), the Moiraine come-back, how the Ogier came out of nowhere, the child-like 'feel' of 80% the sentences, the clumsiness of everything related to the Shadow all of a sudden, the Moridin / Rand meeting and the Lanfear / Perrin @ the Black Tower had me close the book and lay it aside.

While certain portions do get better, unfortunately this is the new reality in the WoT. The quality of writing has regressed to the point that it's no longer fits in the top tier of what is being done in fantasy at the moment.