Wheel of Time: The end?

[Khosann]

I know this is an old question but the last book is coming so it is worth asking:

 

What will happen if Rand defeats the Dark One?

 

Is this a cycle or linear time, the ultimate end?

 

Or will Dragon return to fight the Dark One again? When future Aes Sedai, thousands of years later will drill another bore into the Pattern?

 

If this is a cycle, Ishamael and Dragon will fight each other endlessly.

 

I find cyclic time very depressing. I want a definite ending.

 

But if Dark One is not evil and only the counterpart of the Creator, it can't be truly defeated right?

 

But what about other worlds and parallel universes? Does Dark One manifest itself in each of them?

 

What happens if we win Randland, but the universe still looses to the Dark One, just because he wins in another world?

 

And finally why humanity did not colonize Moon and other planets or stars in the Age of Legends?

 

What of other worlds?

 

What is your take?

[Suttree]

It is a cycle. That is the major theme of the books. There are no beginnings or endings. Further the DO is the dark counterpart to the Creator. IMO the world needs them both to continue on.

[Whizbang]

RE: Traveling to other plants.

 

I am sure that AoL'ers traveled to other planets within the Solar System, and maybe even other systems altogether (RJ said in an interview that doing so would require quite a bit of power, but with a large circle, it should be possible to reach the nearest stars).  Maybe they even colonized, but I don't imagine they would survive after the home planet lost contact.  They may have survived for a bit, but eventually died off, most likely within a single lifetime.  Also, I bet such colonies would be channeler dense, and so subject to a breaking of their own.

[Agitel]

I hope cyclic time continues. I expect it to.

 

And it doesn't seem like Ishamael will be reborn into that role every time. Even if he hadn't been half mad and convinced he was the Dark One / had a special connection with the Dark One when saying it, I don't think his beliefs on that issue are correct.

[Suttree]

@ Agitel

 

We know Ishy's thoughts on that are correct. RJ said Ishy wasn't lying when he told Rand about their roles and previous battles(along with Rand' soul turning to the shadow). Brandon told us Ishy and Rand's soul are frequently spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal in that capacity.

[wotfan4472]

Cool! Is that what LTT meant by 'the other one'? The times that the soul turned to the Shadow?

[Agitel]

@ Agitel

 

We know Ishy's thoughts on that are correct. RJ said Ishy wasn't lying when he told Rand about their roles and previous battles(along with Rand' soul turning to the shadow). Brandon told us Ishy and Rand's soul are frequently spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal in that capacity.

 

Interesting. Do you have a full quote for this?

[Suttree]

Interview: Nov 19th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Matrimony Cauthon (Paraphrased)

Question

I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand and Moridin's souls being intertwined.

Brandon Sanderson

Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

 

To be clear I retract the "in that capacity" part. Must have been combining this with RJ's quote about Ishy not lying when he was telling Rand about how often they fight and Rand having served the DO.

[Hagazussa]

Also, I bet such colonies would be channeler dense, and so subject to a breaking of their own.

 

Wonderful now we know how Star Trek got the Q, a batshit crazy channeler colony with millenia to develop their art. :P

 

I do think that the end of the series will just be the end of that age, that the same with happen again the next third age, there will be new names and the details might be different, instead of a sheepherder perhaps the Dragon gowns up a miller's son or a lesser nobleman but the basics will be the same again and again and again. This is what I think will happen but it is also a possibility that a way to break that cycle is found in the end of the books so that the Dark One is completely defeated for good, but I do not think that is likely since the cyclical nature of time is such a integral part of the setting.

[Azrayne]

I am sure that AoL'ers traveled to other planets within the Solar System, and maybe even other systems altogether (RJ said in an interview that doing so would require quite a bit of power, but with a large circle, it should be possible to reach the nearest stars).  Maybe they even colonized, but I don't imagine they would survive after the home planet lost contact.  They may have survived for a bit, but eventually died off, most likely within a single lifetime.  Also, I bet such colonies would be channeler dense, and so subject to a breaking of their own.

 

I'm not so sure. They could do some pretty amazing things in the AOL, but it seems like most of that was predicated, directly or indirectly, on channeling. Remember that distance isn't the only issue you come across when travelling to other planets, you've also got radically different temperature, gravity, terrain, atmosphere, etc. Even if they Travel to, say, Mars, that doesn't stop them from suffocating and having their eyeballs explode from decompression the second they step through it (what about the atmospheres, would they leak through?)

 

Furthermore, I'd think that if it had happened, knowledge would have survived. With everything they did remember, colonization of a whole other planet seems like a pretty damn huge thing to forget.

[Whizbang]

Interview: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

Week 19 Question

How far can a channeler Travel with the One Power? I know they can Travel anywhere on the globe, and enter Tel'aran'rhiod through a slightly different weave, but is it possible to Travel to other planets, or even planets in other galaxies?

Robert Jordan

Travel to other planets within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, though not necessarily as many as thirteen, depending on exactly how far out they wanted to go. Travel to a planet in another solar system would require a rather large circle (of the maximum possible size) of very strong channelers, and there would a limit on how far they could go in one jump. They could planet-hop, of course. Travel to another galaxy would be beyond them even if they began on the planet in this galaxy nearest the target galaxy.

So, that leaves the question of air pressure differences. This has been discussed here before. If air bled through, opening a gateway on a mountain to sea level would cause a fierce wind coming through the gateway. We do not see that in the books. So, obviously air pressure is somehow controlled, despite the fact that noise seems to have no trouble coming through. So, with that in mind, traveling to another planet would not be difficult. Build an air-tight, pressurized vehicle. Open a Gateway to another planet. Drive through. Close Gateway. You are now on another planet, inside a pressurized vehicle. Send supplies and personell as needed.

[Azrayne]

It's honestly pretty impossible to say, since we have only the loosest ideas of what AOL technology was and wasn't capable of. But I think the fact that there isn't a single mention if it is a pretty solid reason to operate on the assumption that it didn't happen, given all that they did remember. And you'd think it would have come up in all those long rants the Forsaken made about how much more sophisticated the AOL was. If it did happen, it doesn't sound like it was well known by the time the war of power rolled around.

[Caliban]

Rand will simply open a gateway at the bottom of the Aryth Ocean that opens up in Shayol Ghul which will effectively destroy any armies of the Dark One. All Rand has to do is form a circle with a few people, break the rest of the seals, and patch that hole up. Objects have been shown to be able to move through the gateway without attachment of an individual (the Seanchan spear after Rand runs after Aviendha into the Seanchan continent) so it would seem logical that water would flow through the portal.

[Azrayne]

When I was a kid reading 1 - 6 I used to think that he'd use Callandor + a circle, create a giant blast of balefire like nothing ever seen, and blast the DO so far into the past that the events of the last 3000 years since his release are totallly changed, dying in the process, but in doing so create a new future in which the DO was destroyed before he was ever released, meaning Rand never had to die in the first place (or be the dragon, I guess, though I didn't think it over too much back then). Given everything that's changed since then I don't see it happening, but oh well :)

[Whizbang]

Rand will simply open a gateway at the bottom of the Aryth Ocean that opens up in Shayol Ghul which will effectively destroy any armies of the Dark One. All Rand has to do is form a circle with a few people, break the rest of the seals, and patch that hole up. Objects have been shown to be able to move through the gateway without attachment of an individual (the Seanchan spear after Rand runs after Aviendha into the Seanchan continent) so it would seem logical that water would flow through the portal.

 

I like that idea, and that is the type of thinking I wish channelers had in these books. Channeling in the books is all very direct. The most clever use we've seen was the Deathgates that rand used at Lord Algarin's Manor. Gateways would be awesome indirect weapons. Have them move around, as the Deathgates did, and the army before you is scattered to the corners of the earth. Do as you said and open a large gateway to the bottom of the ocean or something, and you get a super poweful water gun. If you start thinking with Portals, a la the Portal game series, you can really have fun. Gateways that suck people out into space comes to mind.

 

That said, there is a huge foible with Gateways that is not addressed in the series, specifically the air pressure thing I mentioned earlier. If air pressure is stabalized across the Gateway, would water be let through? I think that yes, but since this issue will never be resolved in-universe, we'll never know.

 

Also, there is the issue that channeling near Shayol Ghul seems to be very dangerous. I wonder how LTT and the companions did it, or how Rand will do it.

[jedman67]

I assume that channeling near shayol ghul is dangerous in the sense that it shows a level of distrust to the DO. Channeling inside the Bore itself is probably dangerous unless the channeler has taken major steps to protect him/herself; as the OP can be difficult to control where the pattern is so thin; because the TP can cause Bad Side Effects to OP channeling there; or because the DO himself does not 'trust' any channeling so close to his prison.

I presume that LTT took special precautions and knew what he was doing, yet it seems that there needs to be saidin and saidar to properly reseal the Bore. 

My theory is that balefire directed from Callendor touching the DO will not cause the DO to be destroyed; as he is far more powerful than BF. Rather, the BF will 'reflect' off the DO and destroy the hole, in effect resealing the bore. 

 

Another thing: Why was channeling necessary for everything to run smoothly in the AoL? Didn;t they have electricity, gas, subways, etc? Sure, channeling can do stuff that electricity does not; the whole tale of 'Lenn riding to the moon in the belly of an eagle of fire' is clearly a reference to the Apollo space program; whats to say they didnt do more of space travel in the AoL?

[Ozzie_aiel]

I doubt Balefire would even make the Dark One flinch, can something that burns the threads in the Pattern affect one who is outside it?

 

Its true how linear and unimaginative some channellers can be. With Gateways you can have archers raining down arrows while they're hundreds of miles away.from the battle. A razor thin line of Air, at waist height, across the front of a unit of soldiers would be more successful than a pike wall.

 

As for the AoL using the Power everything look at our world today. Steam power was once the pinnicle of technology. Nowadays it's rarely used ouside of die-hard fans and tourism. Wood has been replaced by coal, oil and gas, which is slowly being replaced with geothermal heat, uranium and solar energy.

 

In the AoL, the One Power was clean, cheap (basically free if you could channel) and infinate.

[KakitaOCU]

Heck, if you want creative use of magic, look at the Recluce Saga by L.E. Modesitt Jr.

 

His magic is much more restrictive, so the characters tend to be VERY creative with what they do with it. Such ideas have included, but were not limited to.

 

*Spoilers for various books in the series, though I don't mention which*

 

*

 

*

 

*

 

 

Creating unbreakable, but thread thin wire, nearly invisible due to its thinness and placing it across roads before taunting cavalry into a charge.

 

Unlinking the stability in the ground in an area turning the entire mess into something worse than quicksand.

 

Tapping the Crustal layers and creating small volcanos underneath the enemy army.

 

Throwing a blade and using it as the focus point of a Company wide air blade (Wouldn't even need the focus), again, used against charging cavalry.

 

Gently manipulating the weather well in advance of a coming battle so that there's a stormfront already there, then instead of individual lightnings and wind, make a focused sirroco or hurricane and sweep it along your enemy.

 

Using air and some really well made gems and lens to turn the sun into a beam that melts a city.

 

Hardening the air around someone's head, then letting them suffocate. They die without a mark on them and nothing wrong with them physically.

 

And this is all with a magic system that is effectively limited to control of Fire for one side of it, control of air and weather for the other. (There's more and exceptions, but those are the basic basic powers of each type of mage).

 

With Wheel the options get even worse since there's a LOT more to use than what Recluce gives.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I suppose its easier to be more creative if you're restricted. Lets face it, an artillery battery has very little need for subtlety

[Whizbang]

Elayne needs to be mass-producing those medallions of hers, and giving them to troops. How about a phalanx of pikes, all holding large shields with a OP negating medallion in the center? A phalanx would pretty much walk through any army of disorganized Trollocs. Some dradlords toss fireballs at them, and... nothing. Meanwhile, trollocs in a meat grinder. Then the Light-side channerls strike the dreadlords while they're focused on the phalanx, and BAM! ... more like deadlords.

 

And if she can figure out how to copy that dull knife that hides her from the Shadow, you'd have light-side soulless assasins.

 

And I've said elsewhere, what about that ward Rand placed in SL, around the Waygate? It subtly killed all shadowspawn that passed through it. Have some Ashaman place large version of this ward in key passes and paths coming out of the blight. It'd take the Shadow a long time to find those wards and cut them or learn to go around. Then simply place new wards somewhere else, and it all starts over again, meanwhile massive amounts of Trollocs and Fades have died.

 

In fact, place that ward around cities and towns. DUH! It might not stop a raid or even a battle (I think it took a few hours for the shadowspawn to die), but if the Light can hold that few hours, they'd win by default. And even if they lost, that shadowspawn army is not going to make it anywhere else to cause trouble.

[Azrayne]

I think channelers would find a way around those amulets pretty quickly if they were mass produced, there are a dozen ways you could kill people with the OP without touching them directly with the weaves. They only maintain their effectiveness because they're rare and unexpected.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I agree, Medallian wearer, meet 1 tonne rock

 

(Yes, I know most channellers probably couldn't pick up and throw a 1 tonne rock, it was more for dramatic flair)

[Guest apelstav]

I don't really believe that the cycle can be broken - I have always viewed the Pattern as the world itself and thus if the wheel and pattern is stopped the world would not be able to exist. While this thought might seem depressing I would like to quote Lews Therin Telamon "Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance."

 

Further I don't really believe that the Dark One can truly be described as evil (well, I'm a moral relativist so I guess that means I do not believe in evil, but hey, in fantasy-worlds I guess it can exist). Shai'tan is chaos and paradox, the complete lack of any form of order and if the Pattern is not order I don't know what is. Now, chaos is not necessarily evil, but will always disrupt order and as the Pattern is just that, then absolute chaos means the Pattern's destruction. So can the Dark One be vanquished or sealed of for eternity? I don't think so, as that would go against the rules of the universe (as I perceive them). The one wildcard in this is obviously Fain since he is something never before seen. If anyone can slay Shai'tan it's Fain, after all Mashadar and the Taint destroyed eachother, however Fain is also touched by the Shadow, so maybe he wouldn't have the same effect.

 

As for other worlds, this would depend upon if there are one Pattern or several. If there is only one - then Rand will decide the fate of all worlds, and if there is several, well then there are several Chosen Ones.

 

Personally I'm mostly interested in seeing how the Bore will be sealed again, as it seems rather clear that it cannot be mended with the One Power, at least not as it was done the last time, though Callandor is supposed to be key from what I've understood, so the Power should be involved somehow. Neither do I believe that he could be sealed with the True Power - "It is HIM." - and how the Pattern could be mended with the Dark One I do not understand. When I was  younger I was convinced that balefire would be involved somehow, but this seems rather strange now as Shai'tan shouldn't be affected by it - I guess Rand could balefire Lanfear with enough strength to make sure the bore was never made, but then she would never have been sealed, nor recieved her new body, and that just seems too weird and Deus Ex Machina for my taste.

[Whizbang]

It is not possible, even with the Choden Khal (which has been destroyed anyway) to balefire away 3000 years.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 27th, 2009

 

BYU Stormleader Dinner - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

 

MATT HATCH

 

We know that in the Age of Legends that the Forsaken/Chosen, everyone agreed to stop using balefire because of its effects on the Pattern. Is it unrealistic then to say that a great amount of power could burn someone’s thread back a year or six months? Is that an unrealistic thing to say that there is enough power available to either one or multiple people to burn somebody back that far?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I see what you are getting at you are trying to figure out if killed Graendal with a whole lot of balefire would bring Asmodean back to life.

MATT HATCH

...like that could ever happen...

BRANDON SANDERSON

That’s what you are digging for isn’t it?

MATT HATCH

Let’s say, if a Forsaken was responsible for killing another Forsaken...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh huh...

MATT HATCH

And said Forsaken was balefired...

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are under the assumption...You are trying to figure out who killed Asmodean again. That’s what you are trying to do and I’m not going to get caught and let you know...

MATT HATCH

It’s a legit question...and I’m sure whatever is said at this table stays at this table...

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m sure, the leader of Theoryland and the guy taping this... [much laughter] Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us—what have you determined?—from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

MATT HATCH

Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done...

MATT HATCH

Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100-fold...let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

MATT HATCH

Like I said to Jennifer, it is my job at Theoryland to entertain these ideas.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it is, it is your job to entertain them. But in the terms of Mythbusters let’s go ahead and call that one “Busted” in the realistic world. I’ve got to give you at least something, so I’ll at least give you that...If it were possible to do things like that, we’d have the Dark One just going and balefiring you know Tam so Rand never gets picked up off the mountain. [...] I think it is more loose guidelines than it is a formula.

 

 

 

 

Also, there is this:

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

 

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

 

Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The quantity necessary would destroy the world.

 

 

[Azrayne]

 

It is not possible, even with the Choden Khal (which has been destroyed anyway) to balefire away 3000 years.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 27th, 2009

 

BYU Stormleader Dinner - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

 

MATT HATCH

 

We know that in the Age of Legends that the Forsaken/Chosen, everyone agreed to stop using balefire because of its effects on the Pattern. Is it unrealistic then to say that a great amount of power could burn someone’s thread back a year or six months? Is that an unrealistic thing to say that there is enough power available to either one or multiple people to burn somebody back that far?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I see what you are getting at you are trying to figure out if killed Graendal with a whole lot of balefire would bring Asmodean back to life.

MATT HATCH

...like that could ever happen...

BRANDON SANDERSON

That’s what you are digging for isn’t it?

MATT HATCH

Let’s say, if a Forsaken was responsible for killing another Forsaken...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh huh...

MATT HATCH

And said Forsaken was balefired...

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are under the assumption...You are trying to figure out who killed Asmodean again. That’s what you are trying to do and I’m not going to get caught and let you know...

MATT HATCH

It’s a legit question...and I’m sure whatever is said at this table stays at this table...

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m sure, the leader of Theoryland and the guy taping this... [much laughter] Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us—what have you determined?—from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

MATT HATCH

Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done...

MATT HATCH

Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100-fold...let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

MATT HATCH

Like I said to Jennifer, it is my job at Theoryland to entertain these ideas.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it is, it is your job to entertain them. But in the terms of Mythbusters let’s go ahead and call that one “Busted” in the realistic world. I’ve got to give you at least something, so I’ll at least give you that...If it were possible to do things like that, we’d have the Dark One just going and balefiring you know Tam so Rand never gets picked up off the mountain. [...] I think it is more loose guidelines than it is a formula.

 

 

 

 

Also, there is this:

 

 

>INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

 

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

 

Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The quantity necessary would destroy the world.

 

 

 

Relax, it was an idea I had at 13 :p