Moiraine was cut off from the source?

[Veracohr]

I just read "Sherlock Holmes Examines the Death of Asmodean" and at the end it mentions that Lan's reaction as though Moiraine died and his bond being passed to Myrelle is explained by her losing her ability to channel. We also know she comes back much less powerful, but I don't remember anything saying she had been cut off then healed (imperfectly). Anyone know anything I forgot?

[Whizbang]

Interview: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA (Verbatim)

Terez

Why did Moiraine's bond with Lan break when the doorway burned? Did she intentionally release it?

Brandon Sanderson

She did not intentionally release it. RJ has something about this in the notes, but I don't have the quote handy. It basically has to do with the severing of the link between worlds.

[Whizbang]

Also, Moiraine and Suiane were similar in strength pre-stilling/"death". Suiane, though weak for an AS, is still strong enough to be considered so. Moiraine is much weaker. So, if she were stilled, then the healer must've been ham-fisted indeed. Also, who would heal her? All the Forsaken think it is impossible until Nyn does it. Lanfear/Cyndane comes back from Finnland at about the same time as Nyn heals Suiane, Leane and Logain. So, a Forsaken would have to ge back into Finnland with the express purpose of healing her.

[bigdoug1971]

Just wanted to chime in here. I've argued about this a lot with my little circle of friends. I always thought it was a poor excuse to say "The link was broken when the doorway was destroyed". There are still open links with the doorway in Tear and the Tower of Ghenji too. I've always understood the only way to sever the Warder bond was stilling, burned out, death, or releasing the bond. None of these things happened to Moiriane.

I also understand the need to make everyone think Moiraine was dead too. And I've heard the argument that the Finns world is "folded" in different ways too. That still don't get it for me. It's all accessible through the Tower that Mat and company went through and through the doorway in Tear. Mat was able to end up where he needed to be, and I would think that if you entered through one of the doorways and wandered off you could end up coming out at a different point too.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents!

 

 

[Arran]

Just wanted to chime in here. I've argued about this a lot with my little circle of friends. I always thought it was a poor excuse to say "The link was broken when the doorway was destroyed". There are still open links with the doorway in Tear and the Tower of Ghenji too. I've always understood the only way to sever the Warder bond was stilling, burned out, death, or releasing the bond. None of these things happened to Moiriane. I also understand the need to make everyone think Moiraine was dead too. And I've heard the argument that the Finns world is "folded" in different ways too. That still don't get it for me. It's all accessible through the Tower that Mat and company went through and through the doorway in Tear. Mat was able to end up where he needed to be, and I would think that if you entered through one of the doorways and wandered off you could end up coming out at a different point too. Anyway, my 2 cents!

That's a good argument, but I'm pretty sure that it's just as simple as the fact that the Finn's world is a completely different world/universe or whatever :)

 

Don't think it's anything to do with the door melting/stilling/burned out or anything! And i'm sure her coming back less powerful than she was before was explained in that chapter? Something to do with the Finn's feeding off the Power? Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm sure that's somewhere in the chapter and I'm not completely making it up :P

 

 

[mike hunt's here]

Mo was not cut off, the foxes/snakes just ate her power up. She was allowed to use the sangreal as it allowed her to access more power.

 

I dont have the book readily available to quote it. I hope one of the mounters doenst bash me too hard.

[DSgamer64]

I wonder if it is possible to heal the weakening of someone who can channel. If someone can be stilled and healed, if doing so would restore Moiraine to at least have a stronger ability to channel then she does at the moment.

[Veracohr]

I'd buy the "other world" explanation for breaking the bond, but not Moiraine's change in strength. If there's anything to mike's "ate her power up" comment, I can't remember it. Got a few more books in my re-read before I get to the rescue part again.

[Arran]

Quote from Towers of Midnight, page 823.

 

"My power, Thom," she explained. "I could hear them barking and hissing to one another as they fed on me, both Aelfinn and Eelfinn in turn. They have not often had an Aes Sedai to themselves, it seems. While draining my ability to channel, they were fed twofold - my sorrow at what i was losing and the Power itself. My capacity has been greatly reduced."

 

Hope that clears that up :)

[Veracohr]

Ah ha! Thanks!

[Suttree]

The bond severed because Moiraine was actively channeling when that specific gateway was destroyed, it doesn't matter that there are other entrances to the Finn land. It was their channeling when entering a world with a radically different set of natural laws that destroyed the gateway and caused the bond to sever.

[Viperswhip]

It's one of those things you just have to move on from, none of the explanations of why her link with Lan were cut off are sufficient for some people, myself included, but whatever.

[Whizbang]

I imagine that it is similar to the black threads Rand cut from Asmodean. Just because people can't see the threads doesn't mean they aren't there. There is some sort of energy linking Warder to Aes Sedai, obviously. When the ter'angreal doorway burst into flames, there was obviously power going wild. Some random ta'vren chance probably made some of that power arrange into the unlikely pattern that cut the bond.

 

And the "there are other doorways" argument doesn't hold much water with me. The link is not in all places at all times, intelligently seeking alternate routes. It is as close to a direct line from Warder to Aes Sedai as possible, in my mind. The link trailed from Moiraine to Lan through the doorway. When the link between the worlds was cut at that spot it also severed the Bond. The bond wouldn't then just go off in search of an alternate route to get back to Lan. It was cut and could no longer function, and so collapsed.

 

Some will then argue that any gateway, when closed, would cause a Bond to sever. I argue that the two people at least remains within the same pattern/world. The Finns world is something else.

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

Matt Hatch

The Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Robert Jordan

Yes.

Matt Hatch

Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Robert Jordan

No, they are different.

Matt Hatch

Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

Robert Jordan

Possibly.

RJ and BS have stated there is a fundemental difference between parallel and mirror worlds. Portal Stones take you to mirror worlds. The doorway ter'angreal take you to a parallel world. To me, the major difference is that when a person Travels by Gateway (even to TAR to a mirror world), they are within the same meta-world, and so the bond can just snap back in place when the gateway closes. When a person travels to another meta-world altogether and that gateway closes, the bond cannot just snap back into place. It has been stretched beyond any chance of repairing itself.

 

I seem to remember that it was stated that the Finns initiated contact with the Randlander's in the AoL, not the other way around. So, obviously it takes some special/powerful magic to get from one meta-world to another. So, either when that power went wild it cut the bond, or when the doorway collapsed the bond was not powerful enough to maintain the connecion by itself.

[Knivy]

The only explanation i can get myself to believe is it being because of the destruction of the ter'angreal.  Ter's are known to be unpredictable when arent used correctly, so the destruction of one is likely just as dangerous, if not more so.  The link to the other worlds thing doesnt make sense to me.  Unless bonds are literally links of spirit between the two, then there is no reason closing a gateway from one world to another would have any effect.  At most, it would confuse the location-sensing parts.  And if there are literal links of spirit, they would be visible and vulnerable to severing in your average battle.  Also, stilling shouldn't have an effect since the link would be a tied off weave (see shielded sisters with warders) if it was an actual link. 

 

We need to know more on the mechanics of bonding.

[Morden]

The truth is we do not know how Lan reacted when she entered the Tear doorway. For all we know she made preparations ahead of time to stop Lan from going on a bender. But we do know however that she specifically changed her bond to compel him to go to Myrelle should anything ​happen to her. So any lapse in her bond would severe it totally rather than merely force it to go into standby mode.

 

As for her loss of power, that is to me a lot easier to explain. In a way if you take the whole "burning out." part coupled with the hightening limits of how much power one person can handle before they are destroyed or burnt out. Then its simpler to think of a channeller in the same sense as a candle or a lantern(One that doesnt decay or reduce unless they overuse it.) then if the Finns fed off her power at the maximum energy she could hold without allowing her to release it, then she would steadily reduce her capacity as her ability slowly burned away.

 

After all, all channellers can hold the source, but its how much they can hold in their fuel tank(only work i can think of other than reservoir or capacitor) that determines how powerful they are. And if your fuel tank is smaller then overfilling it will make you go boom or force your engine to stop.

[Hagazussa]

I wonder if it is possible to heal the weakening of someone who can channel. If someone can be stilled and healed, if doing so would restore Moiraine to at least have a stronger ability to channel then she does at the moment.

 

Possibly but I do not think it could be done the same way. When someone is severed their connection is cut but it is still there, but the way understand it the Finns ate a good chunk of Moiraine's connection to the source. It would be the difference between someone having a limb cleanly cut off so the doctors are able to reattach it and someone having a limb half eaten by a pack of rabid dogs, that is not so easy to repair.

 

Also, stilling shouldn't have an effect since the link would be a tied off weave (see shielded sisters with warders) if it was an actual link.

 

In book six when Rand brakes out of the box and stills three Aes Sedai one of them have two Warders and one die from the shock, but that might be the shock of the pain his Aes Sedai was feeling as she was stilled and might not be that the bond between them where broken, but the other one definitely experienced the bond between them breaking. Also both Siuan and one of those who Rand stills immediately are overwhelmed by grief for their dead Warders as soon as they are healed, which strongly indicate that the bond was not there while they where severed. Also I do not remember exactly where it is said but at one point it is said that an Aes Sedai feels the bond with their Warder go fuzzy when she is shielded. It seams clear to me that the Warder bond only works as long as the bond holder can channel and that if he or she is severed the bond break.

[shortkut]

Could moir have simply released lan which made him think it was broken?

[Suttree]

Could moir have simply released lan which made him think it was broken?

 

Interview: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA (Verbatim)

Terez

Why did Moiraine's bond with Lan break when the doorway burned? Did she intentionally release it?

Brandon Sanderson

She did not intentionally release it. RJ has something about this in the notes, but I don't have the quote handy. It basically has to do with the severing of the link between worlds.

[Orange7]

I would say that it was probably not a complete severing, but rather that the Finns draining her ability was on a level with a partial severing. Considering that that would be uncharted territory, there could easily be some reason why a reduction in channeling potential could sever the warder bond.

 

I get the feeling that Moiraine my have her own input on this discussion in AMOL, so these theories may be outdated in a few weeks, but that is my best guess.

[shortkut]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2715232" data-time="1356219503"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shortkut" data-cid="2715219" data-time="1356217264"><p>Could moir have simply released lan which made him think it was broken?</p></blockquote>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'><p>Interview: Aug 31st, 2011<br />

<a href='http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=622'>Reddit AMA</a> (Verbatim) Terez<br />

Why did Moiraine's bond with Lan break when the doorway burned? Did she intentionally release it? Brandon Sanderson<br />

She did not intentionally release it. RJ has something about this in the notes, but I don't have the quote handy. It basically has to do with the severing of the link between worlds.</p></blockquote></p></blockquote>

Thanks. Never saw that quote before

[Whizbang]

Re: Finns' feeding off of her ability to channel causing the Bond to sever - 

 

Lan felt the bond sever almost immediately.  I get the impression that the Finns fed off her for a long time.  It wasn't like they fed off her in an instant and then just held onto her until Mat could stop by and fetch her.  They held her prisoner and forced her to channel through an Angreal so they could feed off of her ability and her anguish.

 

So,in recap: Lan feels the bond sever in a few moments.  Moiraine gets drained over the course of several months.  Therefore, this is not the cause of the Bond severing.

[Suttree]

People there is a quote from Brandon saying the bond severed due to that portal breaking. What caused the bond to snap is exactly what I described in my first post.

[Sharaman]

Just wanted to chime in here. I've argued about this a lot with my little circle of friends. I always thought it was a poor excuse to say "The link was broken when the doorway was destroyed". There are still open links with the doorway in Tear and the Tower of Ghenji too. I've always understood the only way to sever the Warder bond was stilling, burned out, death, or releasing the bond. None of these things happened to Moiriane. I also understand the need to make everyone think Moiraine was dead too. And I've heard the argument that the Finns world is "folded" in different ways too. That still don't get it for me. It's all accessible through the Tower that Mat and company went through and through the doorway in Tear. Mat was able to end up where he needed to be, and I would think that if you entered through one of the doorways and wandered off you could end up coming out at a different point too. Anyway, my 2 cents!

If you think of the warder link as a direct connection, the destruction of the doorway should be enough. Even if there are other potential routes between worlds to keeping the connection open, these would take time to establish and the link is instantly severed. Since the link doesn't sever earlier when Moiraine entered Finnland in Tear, there is need for a direct connection. 

If BS says so anyhow, it's canon.

 

[shortkut]

Think of the bond as a string connecting them. In tear, she closed the door on the string, but it didn't break. At the docks, the door was set on fire which burned through the string causing it to break

[Hagazussa]

The gateway in Tear worked as it should, it opened it closed and everything went according to specs to say it like that. The portal Moiraine vanished though was destroyed. We do know that often when items of the Power go haywire or get destroyed strange things happens. The breaking of the Warder bond might not have anything to do with paralel worlds or anything like that, it could be that the bond was broken because between Moiraine and Lan there where a big old ter'angreal which was destroyed, that alone could have broken the bond.