Luckers... Official on Brandon

[TLHansum]

This thread makes me so glad ive never read the "problems with brandon's work" thread.

 

I think Brandon's opinion of 'im not the writer for you' is more accurate than at first glance.  If someone else had written the books, maybe Luckers would have been happy, but Fish would have been pissed, if another writer had written it, Terez would have loved it, but Sutree upset. (i don't know what your opinions are, its a generic example).

 

In the end, there was no way to make everyone happy.  There was no 'good solution' to the problem of a genius like RJ not being able to complete his manifesto.  This is the solution we got.  It could have been better, but 99% of the readers (myself included) wouldn't have noticed or cared.  And maybe, just maybe the extra effort required to satisfy that last 1% wouldn't have been worth it.  The truth is, the WoT isnt about making Luckers or any other 'superfan' happy, its about a story a man wanted to tell.  That story has now lived on past the man, and simply having an ending is better than not.  Maybe we need to remember how happy we were back when we first learned that there WAS going to be an ending instead of splitting hairs about what we got. 

 

Personally, i would have been happy with a bullet-point form from the notes, so i had resolution.   Everything that we've gotten ontop of that is gravy.

[Suttree]

but in the end I think RJ would have wanted us to recognize that he left Harriet with an impossible job. I don't believe the impossibility of it was ever a good reason not to make certain efforts, but what's done is done. The book is printed, and it won't change aside from the inevitable continuity retcons. We will have the end of the story. It won't be perfect, but it's over now, and I have nothing left but appreciation for the amazing amount of stress that Harriet and Brandon have endured to make it happen. And grateful that I got the chance to be friends with Luckers in the process.

Very well said Terez. Here here to all the above...

[Terez]

I believe the phrase is 'hear hear'.

[Suttree]

I believe the phrase is 'hear hear'.

 

Lol...on iPhone waiting for friends out for a sushi dinner. Fired it off quick but point taking I expect ;)

[Agitel]

I could go into a long post here about this and that and the other but I don't really think this is the place for it. There are certainly things I wish had gone differently—for example, a concerted effort early on to find the most knowledgeable fans and use them as a sounding board could have made a big difference—but in the end I think RJ would have wanted us to recognize that he left Harriet with an impossible job. I don't believe the impossibility of it was ever a good reason not to make certain efforts, but what's done is done. The book is printed, and it won't change aside from the inevitable continuity retcons. We will have the end of the story. It won't be perfect, but it's over now, and I have nothing left but appreciation for the amazing amount of stress that Harriet and Brandon have endured to make it happen. And grateful that I got the chance to be friends with Luckers in the process. Because I'm pretty sure that would never have happened otherwise.

 

Well said.

 

As for the betas, I don't think it was anybody's intention to pass the blame onto them. I never interpreted Brandon's or Peter's comments in that way (then again, I take an overly positive view of most people (and what they say) until they give me sufficient reason to think otherwise). My take on those statements is that the continuity issues have slipped by a lot of people and so aren't as easy to find as one may think, not that fault should be assigned to the beta readers. I don't think Peter or Brandon are thinking about this in terms of fault and blame, the focus with what they've said is that this is a very complex process and errors were made and they have admitted to making them. Some see this as an evasion of responsibility and deflecting blame, and are interpreting comments in this light.

 

Or perhaps I'm incorrect and interpreting things from my own frame of reference and am not understanding the opinions of posters like Luckers, Suttree, and yoniy0. I feel like I'd need to hear from Brandon himself -- or see full transcripts and more elaboration -- on what he thought of timeline issues and some other things that Luckers and others have accused him of not trying his best on before casting judgment. I personally haven't interpreted what I've seen so far as trying to deflect responsibility away from Brandon, though there may be some areas were he could own up to his mistakes more (though this may need a more nuanced discussion, we don't exactly have a personal relationship with Brandon -- this is professional, a business, and auteur relationship first, and that may involve different actions and responsibilities than a personal one would). On the other side, the critics aren't wrong in the criticisms they're making, but I feel that some have been a bit overzealous in needing to place fault and in playing the blame-game.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Ha, turns out hear hear works fine on my iPhone, Sutt, you're obviously not the poster for me! Ha deary me, this is an emotional thread.

 

I think Luckers was trying to say that he believes Brandon is the author for him but he feels disappointed because Brandon didn't achieve what Luckers believes he is capable of. Meanwhile he still respects Brandon for the work and effort. Luckers recognises there are extraneous factors, such as his own impotence to influence the final product and likewise the ability of the beta readers, many of whom are his friends. Concurrently Luckers wants to refute what Peter said regarding the point of the beta readers as he believes there has been a series of failures regarding the process of team Jordan. Subsequently Luckers believes linking the delayed publication to the beta readership process is redirecting fan frustration and assigning the duty of quality control onto a group of people who wanted but were refused that role.

 

At least that's how I read it. I think that forums are a good place for public debate. I am not sure that Luckers presented his open letter to Peter as well as he could have, in the same way that he believes Brandon didn't write WoT as he could have. Luckers thinks Brandon should have worked better on his letter by Mat to Elayne - much like how Luckers himself probably knows he could have written this very letter to Peter better had he taken a few more minutes/hours/weeks or listened to a friends advice, talked to people who've written and read letters before.... And so on.

 

[Suttree]

Ha, turns out hear hear works fine on my iPhone, Sutt, you're obviously not the poster for me! Ha deary me, this is an emotional thread.

I guess not as you apparently didn't get what I was saying. I'm out at night, was waiting for friends and fired off a quick post typing too fast ahead of my thoughts (which is exactly what I said) without paying much attention to specifics. Why would you think an iPhone would auto correct hear/here and what does that have to do with me being the poster for you? What an odd thing to say, kinda creeps me out actually. Is there some sort of language barrier here?

 

What is even stranger is Terez made a well worded post and I was agreeing with her. Her and I communicate outside of these forums and she was tweaking my mistake in good fun. Why even comment?

 

@Agitel

 

You actually make a number of good points as well. It is a complicated issue all around.

[SamJ]

I've just posted my views on Brandon's work over on 'this guy's' thread, but I thought there was something useful I could add here also about beta readers and continuity issues because I have some insight here. I've done beta reading in the academic sphere (for published books), and I've had it done to material I've wrriten. It is incredibly difficult. It requires a level of sustained concentration, literally testing each sentence, and having to hold in your mind not only the work you are reading, but all your wider awareness of the area you are reading. I find it harder than writing. I imagine that doing this with a world with the detail and depth of WOT is a challenge. It's no surprise that some things slip past the whole team that wouldn't slip past the collective knowledge of the many posters here. But, as the acknowledgements of any academic book would state, the responsibility for any errors or omissions is the author's. It's tough on Brandon in this context, but it's the honourable thing.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

 

Ha, turns out hear hear works fine on my iPhone, Sutt, you're obviously not the poster for me! Ha deary me, this is an emotional thread.

I guess not as you apparently didn't get what I was saying. I'm out at night, was waiting for friends and fired off a quick post typing too fast ahead of my thoughts (which is exactly what I said) without paying much attention to specifics. Why would you think an iPhone would auto correct hear/here and what does that have to do with me being the poster for you? What an odd thing to say, kinda creeps me out actually. Is there some sort of language barrier here?

What is even stranger is Terez made a well worded post and I was agreeing with her. Her and I communicate outside of these forums and she was tweaking my mistake in good fun. Why even comment?

@Agitel

You actually make a number of good points as well. It is a complicated issue all around.

 

Ha the funniest thing is definitely that you didn't realise I was pulling your leg matey!

[Mik]

I could go into a long post here about this and that and the other but I don't really think this is the place for it. There are certainly things I wish had gone differently—for example, a concerted effort early on to find the most knowledgeable fans and use them as a sounding board could have made a big difference—but in the end I think RJ would have wanted us to recognize that he left Harriet with an impossible job. I don't believe the impossibility of it was ever a good reason not to make certain efforts, but what's done is done. The book is printed, and it won't change aside from the inevitable continuity retcons. We will have the end of the story. It won't be perfect, but it's over now, and I have nothing left but appreciation for the amazing amount of stress that Harriet and Brandon have endured to make it happen. And grateful that I got the chance to be friends with Luckers in the process. Because I'm pretty sure that would never have happened otherwise.

Amen.

Well said, that.

 

Thanks for sharing, Luckers. It's good to know where you come from and how you feel.

Take a break for a week or two mate, just sit somewhere, and remember a shepherdwriter named Rand al’ThorJames Oliver Rigney.

 

In the end, we're all on the same side, whether we realise it or not.

 

 

[Stevros]

In the end, we're all on the same side, whether we realise it or not.

 

Well said Mik I think that's the key, everyone wanted the book to be as good as it could be and everyone knows deep down that's the point of view they are trying to get across, but everyone has slightly different views on how to best do that. If people have invested as much time as me (and most of you have invested more time than me) then I also feel they have the right to express how they feel it could have better been done. The key is to remember everyone is in this for the story first and foremost and on Jan 8th we will get the end to the story and that to me is the most important bit.

 

Do I think it could have been done better, yes, but I also know it could have been much much worse and I'm grateful to everyone involved that it is as good as it has been.

 

Do I think Brandon could have done better, I don't know. I've never been put in that situation. The only similar situation is when I started a new job I got asked to finish a report my predecessor had started, and I got frustrated and ended up restarting the whole thing, not because the first guy had done badly just trying to make it match up didn't work well. This was only a 10 page report let alone something of this scale I couldn't begin to imagine.

 

Death tore from us the man who knew the series back to front who would of finished it the best, but we must make do with what we are given on the 8th of January. I for one am grateful to Brandon and Team Jordan for giving us the opportunity to see the series finished. I am also grateful to all the people who contributed to it being as good an effort as it will be I think that very much includes the likes of Luckers who have been pushing for as much accuracy as they can get and I'm sure such a push has ensured that whatever we read on the 8th will be better for it.

[Random_Person13]

I have not been into this serise as long as a lot of people here maybe six years, but It is a serise that I have fallen in love with. When I found out the Robert Jordan had passed a way I thought that it was over. Then I found out that it had been picked up by (for me) a local writer. I was nervous and excited all at the same time. how could anyone match the brilliance of Robert Jordan.

 

One book became three a choice that in the end I agree with. Then finaily the book came out I think I finished it in 2 days. I loved it, I read it again and I caught some of the things that bother people. I'm not as well versed in wheel of time as sultree and luckers but I had concercns. Now as we come to the end I think that Brandon has done a good job and taken on a huge work load. I think that everyone envolved had a impossible task as many people here have said. I think that some things could have been done better. The time line in the books being one of them. I think that some mistakes could have been caught with help. But I also think things could have been done much worse and I am thankful that it will be finished.

 

In the end the power of the serise is shown when you have stories like Luckers that tell you how these books changed part of his life that it the power of the serise and why I love books like these.I hope this post has made sense and I can't wait for the next book to come out

[DemandredFO]

It's like Bob T. Dwarf said, RJ was always 3 volumes from finishing, and it's true. Look at how long the Faile rescue took and as I recall that was RJ, unless it's retroactively Brandon. I wish RJ could have written it, but even with perfect health, none of us are immortal. The time was already screwed, and only superfans could calculate it correctly, that alone would've taken 5 RJ books to straighten out. Brandon had a career as well, he couldn't set that aside. It's like J.R.R. Tolkien said in the forward to Fellowship, it is not possible in a really long tale to please everyone at all points. Brandon isn't perfect and neither was RJ. Luckers and others seem to think RJ was perfect, I guess he and others think the mistakes pre-tGS are retroactively Brandon's. I wish I'd never found dragonmount, it was fun until recently.

[Suttree]

 Luckers and others seem to think RJ was perfect, I guess he and others think the mistakes pre-tGS are retroactively Brandon's. I wish I'd never found dragonmount, it was fun until recently.

People seriously need to stop with this revisionist history that RJ was never criticized. RJ's work was critiqued in the same exact way as Brandon and people who have been around remember well(as you should know Dem) all of the "lost control" claims etc. between WH-CoT. Things were equally heated back then between the pro/anti RJ crowd. I am so sick of people misrepresenting posters such as Lucker's views on things. He never has said RJ was perfect, he never said Brandon is bad because he isn't doing as strong a job as RJ could have. You honestly seem to have missed one of the main points of his entire post which was Brandon's personnel growth as an author. 

[OptimusPrime]

 

 

So Luckers opens a thread to finally face the mess he has made, and Barid agreed, but then you two turn it straight back into the snarky defensive cabal mentality that has caused the problem in the first place?

 

This thread is already dead to its purpose

Seriously what are you on about Drekka? You have been taking shots at the people critiquing for quite some time now and I'm frankly sick of it. That person totally mis-characterized Luckers post, registered solely to attack him and you blame Fish and I for calling him out. I find it ironic that you would do so especially given I agreed with Barid in my post and you have been making it a habit to falsely represent critique as "hate" yourself. Don't insult our intelligence by posing as some impartial observer that is trying to be rational. Barid, myself and others have been trying very hard to bring the thisguy thread back under control to avoid this. Don't try and throw us under the bus as if we are the problem when you have multiple people registering for the first time solely to take shots.

 

 

Forget the person who registered for a single post, that is irrelevent. Instead you need to look at how all this GARBAGE looks from the outside. Do you, or Fish or Luckers-or Jason-think any of all this is doing any good? You have to realize that the fact that Peter posted acknowledgement of that post here, that is serious. It doesnt matter about your personal context or meaning, what matters is how this all appears to Brandon, Harriet and so on. I think you guys have turned Dragonmount into a place to damn the last book. Yea sure its ok to pick up on mistakes and give criticism and all the rest of it, but for once in a while it would be ok to discuss the content, as opposed to the deliverence. TGS and ToM shed a lot of light on long lasting questions but its hard to talk about that side of the books anymore because all we hear about is negativity, ooh look at the super amount of mistakes, look how rushed it was, look how badly its done. On and on and on, it never ends.

 

Quite frankly I think the situation on DM is the least of Luckers mistakes. That post at the top, the one Peter replied to, thats probably one of the worst. 

 

So yeah you can call me out all you want but it doesnt make any difference to the real issues at hand here. Feel free to give me as many warning points as you want, or even ban me, but at the end of the day Im not the one whose representing the entire fandom, Brandon and co wont even know I exist, whereas Luckers... well. What do I need to say? All this is going straight to headquarters, probably already has done by now given that Peter posted. They probably think the entire fandom hates them by now because of all this. And the fact that someone registered for a single post to respond to this should be an indicater that this has already gone waaaay too far. Which you and Fish confirmed immediately.

 

P.S. Oh yeah I have an idea. You want to "get the thisguy thread under control?" How about you actually read the opening post, admit Luckers made another mistake there which was part of the antagonism HE HIMSELF mentioned in this thread, and then simply close that thread. Problem solved

[pillowfriend]

Thank you for proving my point Luckers and Suttree :)

[davesmith1983]

 

 Luckers and others seem to think RJ was perfect, I guess he and others think the mistakes pre-tGS are retroactively Brandon's. I wish I'd never found dragonmount, it was fun until recently.

People seriously need to stop with this revisionist history that RJ was never criticized. RJ's work was critiqued in the same exact way as Brandon and people who have been around remember well(as you should know Dem) all of the "lost control" claims etc. between WH-CoT. Things were equally heated back then between the pro/anti RJ crowd. I am so sick of people misrepresenting posters such as Lucker's views on things. He never has said RJ was perfect, he never said Brandon is bad because he isn't doing as strong a job as RJ could have. You honestly seem to have missed one of the main points of his entire post which was Brandon's personnel growth as an author. 

 

 

RJ's work was critiqued, but to say that it was critiqued in the same manner that Brandon is being critiqued now is revisionist in my opinion.  At least in the 15 years I've been following RJ online here and other places, I don't remember ever seeing the level of criticism leveled at RJ that has been leveled at Brandon in regards to timeline issues, continuity, and textual critiques of his prose.  Granted, I go in and out of following discussions and I generally just lurk, so I may be misremembering.  However, the level of criticism definitely feels "hotter" to me now then when RJ was alive, but maybe that's just my perception.

 

There are certainly things I wish had gone differently—for example, a concerted effort early on to find the most knowledgeable fans and use them as a sounding board could have made a big difference—

 

 

Personally I disagree with this.  I doubt more fan involvement would make that much of a difference.  Everyone has their own hangups--so more things might get caught continuity-wise but other things that were caught might get missed.  To me it's akin to having too many cooks in the kitchen.  Or, to use Luckers' analogy, it's like having a Captain (Brandon) and a bunch of captain-wannabes on the same boat, all with slightly different visions of where they're going.

[JimboSlice]

Maybe it is just the case that people are taking this way too seriously. It is a fiction book, and if there are problems of continuity, it's not going to change anything about anyones life. My life will be the same on January 8th as it was on the 7th. And if it turns out that rand is the brother of tuon or some other ridiculous plot inconsistency turns up, it won't change anything. I will enjoy the books for what they are, which is an escape from reality.

 

And when I am reading for enjoyment like this, I am generally not looking to think too hard. I am not looking to criticize every point. This isn't Kant's Critique of Pure Reason we're talking about. We are talking about a fantasy book about a fantasy world. It isnt meant to be read like a philosoohy book.

 

It is supposed to be fun, but what is more boring than criticizing a book meant to be fun. Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson have built a world that is meant to be an escape from reality, and people want to treat it as if it is reality. How pointless and boring is that? How can you even maintain your attention for even one minute on such a trivial issue? You guys who want to analyze the fine details of the books bore the rest of us with your boring pursuit. I don't know how anyone can waste so much time and energy on a fantasy book.

 

The only reason why people notice them is because they've read through the series a half a dozen times. Maybe they should find a new book to read, if they've read this one so many times that they can't enjoy it as is.

 

Not said too prettily, but it gets the point across. I am sorry about any errors and the brevity of the post. I did it on my kindle, which is a little bit of a pain in the a. I hate writing on these mobile devices.

[Manscher]

 

 

 

 

 

So Luckers opens a thread to finally face the mess he has made, and Barid agreed, but then you two turn it straight back into the snarky defensive cabal mentality that has caused the problem in the first place?

 

This thread is already dead to its purpose

Seriously what are you on about Drekka? You have been taking shots at the people critiquing for quite some time now and I'm frankly sick of it. That person totally mis-characterized Luckers post, registered solely to attack him and you blame Fish and I for calling him out. I find it ironic that you would do so especially given I agreed with Barid in my post and you have been making it a habit to falsely represent critique as "hate" yourself. Don't insult our intelligence by posing as some impartial observer that is trying to be rational. Barid, myself and others have been trying very hard to bring the thisguy thread back under control to avoid this. Don't try and throw us under the bus as if we are the problem when you have multiple people registering for the first time solely to take shots.

- snipe-

Such a shame that there's no up voting of specific posts. I completely agree. You guys keep telling that it's just constructive criticism, but it kinda stopped being constructive when you kept beating the dead horse about it. It's somewhat similar to the old "Every thread turns into an Egwene hate thread". And it's gotten to a point where coming here to discuss WoT just isn't fun any more, because the vibe of the forum is so negative and hostile.

[OptimusPrime]

 

 

 

 

 

So Luckers opens a thread to finally face the mess he has made, and Barid agreed, but then you two turn it straight back into the snarky defensive cabal mentality that has caused the problem in the first place?

 

This thread is already dead to its purpose

Seriously what are you on about Drekka? You have been taking shots at the people critiquing for quite some time now and I'm frankly sick of it. That person totally mis-characterized Luckers post, registered solely to attack him and you blame Fish and I for calling him out. I find it ironic that you would do so especially given I agreed with Barid in my post and you have been making it a habit to falsely represent critique as "hate" yourself. Don't insult our intelligence by posing as some impartial observer that is trying to be rational. Barid, myself and others have been trying very hard to bring the thisguy thread back under control to avoid this. Don't try and throw us under the bus as if we are the problem when you have multiple people registering for the first time solely to take shots.

- snipe-

Such a shame that there's no up voting of specific posts. I completely agree. You guys keep telling that it's just constructive criticism, but it kinda stopped being constructive when you kept beating the dead horse about it. It's somewhat similar to the old "Every thread turns into an Egwene hate thread". And it's gotten to a point where coming here to discuss WoT just isn't fun any more, because the vibe of the forum is so negative and hostile.

 

 

Exactly! All we get now is RJ vs Brandon, or new threads to resurrect arguments from other threads, or nuclear personal attack threads to the assistant of the guy finishing the thing this forum was made for. Its killing the place.

[Suttree]

 Yea sure its ok to pick up on mistakes and give criticism and all the rest of it, but for once in a while it would be ok to discuss the content, as opposed to the deliverence. TGS and ToM shed a lot of light on long lasting questions but its hard to talk about that side of the books anymore because all we hear about is negativity, ooh look at the super amount of mistakes, look how rushed it was, look how badly its done. On and on and on, it never ends.

I'm somewhat appalled that you would even write a post like this Drekka. You of all people have been involved long enough to remember all the praise we heaped on the good things after the release of TGS and ToM. Further we have all debated to these "long lasting questions" a gazzilion times more than we have critiqued the work but don't let the truth get in the way of your ranting. It has only been after many re-reads and a careful study that the sentiment began to change. If Brandon hadn't been unrealistically handled with kid gloves/problems glossed over from day one we may not be in the place we are now.

 

The thisguy thread was created solely for the reason of having one place to discuss thoughts on Brandon's work. So it wouldn't seep into other threads, it had became a positive place for discussion on both sides in recent days but now here is a long term poster twisting facts and crying in an absurd fashion. The unpolished prose, mistakes etc can only be talked about because they exist. You are seriously mad at people for pulling back the curtain and showing the real issues? That is absurd and I'm shocked you of all people would suggest shutting down a thread simply because you may not agree with the content. That is the place we have reached here at DM, I don't like what they are saying so do away with it entirely? You are better than that. Lastly none of the critique is hate or disrespect towards Team Jordan. What is difficult about that to understand, literature is made to be critiqued. Imagine that, actually discussing the quality of literature on a forum dedicated to books!?!? Nah, it's only fantasy...no reason to actually comment on the quality is that it?

 

As you should recall I was one of Brandon's most ardent defenders when the call for "more time" was put out. I championed it being the right decision and claimed it would be his best work in the wheel. I still hope that is the case but as you have to admit the pre-materials contain many of the issues people were discussing originally. In addition there are many questions about how that time was used. These are all valid issues for discussion and again Luckers has sacrificed more than just about anyone I know in doing what he believes is right in relation to the wheel. For you to attack him is beyond absurd and frankly is a much larger issue than anything he has done. It is the poster on poster hate that is making this place so negative. It's the people who take critique(there really isn't much more of a compliment you can pay an author than carefully studying his work)as some personnel affront and refuse to discuss the work, while only attacking others right to discuss these issues that lead to problems.

 

Thank you for proving my point Luckers and Suttree :)

 

Seriously just go away. You quite obviously didn't understand a word he was saying and now all you are doing is sniping at people in this community. You haven't made a single post on these forums except in this thread, aimed at posters. If that doesn't highlight the problem everyone is discussing I have no idea what does.

 

@Manscher

 

So you wish to control what we discuss and where we do it now. You don't like hearing about the critique and commenting on new material once it is released is beating a dead horse? No the problem is posters like yourself can't hold a rational discourse on the subject. Instead of offering counter points you whine that things are too negative(even though everybody admits the problems are there which is the funniest part). Posters discussing other posters instead of the content is what makes it so hostile. Further look at the content of Luckers, Barid, Yoniy0 and my own posts to see what we talk about on average day. It puts paid to the lie that all we are doing is discussing the faults.

[OptimusPrime]

As I said in my previous post Im not mad at people pointing out mistakes, and I certainly dont need them "unveiling" by you or anyone. it just grates that its all we hear about now. We have known there are plenty of mistakes for ages now, you could get over it if you want, but you obviously dont want to, so you drivel on about it all the time like you have nothing better to do. 

[Manscher]

You are, yet again, completely missing the point Suttree. You are the one putting words in our mouth now, we do not call for any sort of censorship. We are merely voicing our displeasure of how dominating this have become, just like certain individuals, you among them, complained about how dominating Egwene hate threads were back then :)

 

But perhaps it's only us that can be in the wrong, and not you or Luckers?

[TootThatHorn]

 

I believe the phrase is 'hear hear'.

 

Lol...on iPhone waiting for friends out for a sushi dinner. Fired it off quick but point taking I expect ;)

 

I believe it's "point taken."  (I apologize, I couldn't help myself) 

[pillowfriend]

@Suttree

 

I have every right to respond.  I have been a lurker on this site for a long, long time.  The fact that this is my first post is irrelevant. My point is that you are getting way too mad about this. If this was my first post but I agreed with you, then you would have no qualms about me responding.  Try not to let it bother you.  Lets just enjoy the books.  You are the one who is cursing at other people over the internet.