Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Nightstrike]

In your dreams, but then Eggy probably would defeat Nyn in a tar fight.

[Luckers]

Or, back for a moment for BFG

 

The section says that if 2 channelers of equal strength battle then the one that's more dextrous wins. If we're talking about different weaves then Nyn now has experience that Eg doesn't in preventing them, through the test.

 

The section shows the value of dexterity and skill. So do many others, including situations of vastly different strengths--Cyndane and Alivia come to mind, in which Alivia stood at more than twice Cyndane's strength. Admittedly the skill limits between Nynave and Egwene are far more equal, but so too the strengths.

 

Fact is, time and again strength has been shown to be undecisive. Moghedien and Nynaeve is the only truely epic strength on strength situation--and it only occurred because Moghedien was stupid.

 

If Nyn was still dismal at everything else she wouldn't have passed the test - the test is designed to challenge the person taking the test. The quote I provided shows that her weaving has improved in speed and 'nimbleness' in things other than healing.

 

The logic here is falacious. Nynaeve beind skilled at the weaves of the test does not show that she has [or has not] become skilled at weaving. Nynaeve ALWAYS had the ability to learn a weave on sight, from the very beginning in tGH. Her 'dismal' skill resulted in her being unwilling and uninterested in learning anything aside from Healing.

 

The test, in effect, serves Nynaeve in this sense. She has the ability to mimic with ease. It was no great task for her to learn the weaves. By the same note it would be no great task for her to learn any weave. This, is many ways, handicaps Nynaeve, especially when mixed with her attitude toward learning.

 

I also doubt very much that Eg could pass the test in her sleep -

 

Frankly, I don't think Nynaeve should have passed the test--not due to the weaves. They're easy and Nynaeve or Egwene either one could have done them in her sleep. It was the rest... sloppy writing on Sanderson's part--the whole scene was designed for the cathartic release of seeing Nynaeve show up the Aes Sedai, and it did not ring true at all.

 

That being said I think the reasons Nynaeve should have failed the test are what make her a great character, and that that would have made a much more poingnant scene. But meh.

[Nightstrike]

"The next blow" never comes if you're defeated the first time.

[Suttree]

"The next blow" never comes if you're defeated the first time.

 

The "first blow" never lands if the person is dexterous. See Cyndane and Alivia in WH for proof of that. Anyways it's been fun mate. Have a good one...

[Nightstrike]

Eggy and Elayne thought maybe Nynaeve would have a chance against Rand, so strength matters.

 

The difference between Cyndane and Alivia wasn't dexterity. It was knowledge of weaves, knowledge of how to invert your weaves, and so on. Hadn't she inverted her weaves (which Alivia wasn't even aware was possible), then Cyndane would have been dead.

[BFG]

@Luckers & Suttree - the Cyndane/Alivia example is a really good one - but made complicated by the fact that Cyndane has experience and that Alivia (may) be unused to creating her own weaves - in the examples we've been shown the sul'dam does the weaving, the d'amane provides the power. But it is a really good example where dexterity clearly out does strength.

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to differ on the value of the test - Nyn can memorise them, but in doing so increases her skill with non-healing weaves. Eg could learn the weaves, I'm not doubting that, I think 'passing the test in her sleep' is an exaggeration.

 

Nyn has also practiced (she spent a while practicing for the test, not because she thought she needed the time, but because she was using it as a way to help her teacher) non-healing weaves since WH. Eg's most recent training has been in TAR and politics, her knowledge of the 'standard' weaves is also a little thin (even more so than Nyn), they've both dug through Moggy to get knowledge from AoL and Eg probably has the advantage here as she'll have learned everything Nyn found out and then found out more that she hasn't had much time to teach Nyn.

 

 

The testing scene probably was clumsily written - only scanned it for the purposes of this, will read properly when I get there in re-read, - and I wouldn't have minded if Nyn had failed, she seems to have moved past the Tower in some ways and everything she said, regardles of how contrived the scene may or may not have been, was true.

 

 

[sorry if this doesn't read well - my internet keeps crashing so I'm trying to post before I lose what I've said (again)]

[damandred]

What i dont get is why everybody seems to think of nyn as just brute strength and eggy pure finess. after the removal of nyn's block, i cant remember one instance were nyn's skills have been jugded less than anyother AS. indeed some of her imaginative working with the weaves seem to impress Eggy herself during nyn's test. ie. the use of useless weaves to attack things. plus i get the feeling not many would of even passed the brutal test she was given.

[Nightstrike]

Both Eggy and Nynaeve can invert their weaves, and both have better training than from the sul'dam. Knowledge of weaves should be about equal. They probably don't under-/overestimate each other, either. Chances were pretty high Cyndane overestimated her chances (due to her being that much stronger at the time).

 

If they go for Balefire, then maybe the quickest would win. I don't know who is quicker out of Nynaeve and Egwene.

[Suttree]

What i dont get is why everybody seems to think of nyn as just brute strength and eggy pure finess. after the removal of nyn's block, i cant remember one instance were nyn's skills have been jugded less than anyother AS.

 

Have you read through this whole thread? Post block after spending considerable time with her Cads says straight out...

 

WH

The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal.

 

Egwene has a far more balanced and extensive knowledge of practical weaves. Learning to copy weaves for the test does nothing to change that.

[Luckers]

I guess we're going to have to agree to differ on the value of the test - Nyn can memorise them, but in doing so increases her skill with non-healing weaves. Eg could learn the weaves, I'm not doubting that, I think 'passing the test in her sleep' is an exaggeration.

 

See, I'd phrase it as she increased the number of weaves she knew, not her skill. That was sort of my point--Nynaeve picked up weaves at the drop of a hat, BUT in many ways that taught her little about the nature of weaving itself--hence Cadsuane comment about her dismal ability.

 

That added to the chip on her shoulder about Aes Sedai and channeling....

 

Do you see the distinction I'm making?

 

Nyn has also practiced (she spent a while practicing for the test, not because she thought she needed the time, but because she was using it as a way to help her teacher) non-healing weaves since WH.

 

But again, she didn't practice... she memorized. Off hand. The text is very clear about this--she barely pays attention to the weaves, and certainly she doesn't do it because of an interest in learning about weaving--she does it, as you say, for the teacher. And thus learned little. In fact, nothing, other than the weave itself.

 

Eg's most recent training has been in TAR and politics, her knowledge of the 'standard' weaves is also a little thin (even more so than Nyn), they've both dug through Moggy to get knowledge from AoL and Eg probably has the advantage here as she'll have learned everything Nyn found out and then found out more that she hasn't had much time to teach Nyn.

 

Actually this isn't correct. From KoD: "Bennae's eyes were blue and sharp, her dark hair, caught in a silver net, liberally streaked with gray. Ink stains marked two of her fingers, and another smudged the side of her nose. She held a porcelain cup of tea, but she had not offered any to Egwene. "I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn, child.""

 

Compare that with Cadsuane's evaluation of Nynaeve, that her ability with healing is miraculous, her skill with anything else dismal.

 

This all fits. Nynaeve has the raw ability to be brilliant, she just resists it except within the capacity that she chooses. Egwene also has the raw ability to be brilliant, she's embraced it--sought it at every turn. Time and again Nynaeve's recalcitrance vs. Egwene's thirst for knowledge has been made clear. And it shows.

[Suttree]

Actually this isn't correct. From KoD: "Bennae's eyes were blue and sharp, her dark hair, caught in a silver net, liberally streaked with gray. Ink stains marked two of her fingers, and another smudged the side of her nose. She held a porcelain cup of tea, but she had not offered any to Egwene. "I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn, child.""

 

Compare that with Cadsuane's evaluation of Nynaeve, that her ability with healing is miraculous, her skill with anything else dismal.

 

This all fits. Nynaeve has the raw ability to be brilliant, she just resists it except within the capacity that she chooses. Egwene also has the raw ability to be brilliant, she's embraced it--sought it at every turn. Time and again Nynaeve's recalcitrance vs. Egwene's thirst for knowledge has been made clear. And it shows.

 

This. Great call Luckers, no way to argue with that.

[Entreri]

Given equal strength, I would take Egwene.

 

Given that Nyaneve is MUCH STRONGER than Egwene, Egwene is toast in a face-to-face confronation outside of TAR...minus balefire.

 

 

IMO, this has nothing to do with dexterity or other crap, but it has to do with killer instinct and willing to anything.

 

Egwene's time at Seanchan hands, Wise Ones, Eladia, defeating the female A'dam and finishing Messana = menally tougher than Nyaneve. Egwene will take any hurt and keep going and go for the kill. In battle, that is what matters the most. You have to fight until you are dead, no quitters allowed.

 

This is what makes someone like Lan the greatest ever.

[Nightstrike]

If Egwene is able to defeat Nynaeve, then why would Eggy think Nynaeve may have had a chance where both her and Elayne failed? If they can't see the weaves Rand made, then why would Nynaeve be better equipped to deal with him?

[driedraspberry]

Eggy and Elayne thought maybe Nynaeve would have a chance against Rand, so strength matters.

 

The difference between Cyndane and Alivia wasn't dexterity. It was knowledge of weaves, knowledge of how to invert your weaves, and so on. Hadn't she inverted her weaves (which Alivia wasn't even aware was possible), then Cyndane would have been dead.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

If Eggs was to go up against Elayne then dexterity would play an important part. But as capable, experienced and knowledgeable as Nyn is, with her power level, Eggs wouldn't stand a chance IMO.

 

Sigh next I feel like people would be arguing Eggs could have killed Rahvin on her own.

[Kamin_Majere]

I don't know Lukers and Suttree, I think you are down playing strength to much in a one on one duel. Dexterity and skill come into play when the battle field is more or less even, and if the "candle vs bonfire" comment Moirene makes is any indication then no matter how skilled Egwene is she's going to lose going head to head with Nynaeve. Its only 3 levels of difference but if the Black Ajah sisters couldn't link and overcome Moggy (which i assume 2 or 3 of them together had to at least match Egwene's strength) then a couple of levels are apparently a big deal.

 

It would be like me deciding to beat up a kid. They are MUCH more dexterous than i am, but no matter how hard they struggle I will eventually get tired of the encounter and pick them up and bash them into a wall. Until the strength level is more in line then dexterity doesn't really help.

 

The one weakness of this theory is of course we actually don't know what the strengths mean. 3 levels could be minor in the grand scheme of things or could be massive. Just nothing to really go by that says one way or the other.

 

I still think one on one Nynaeve wins do to the sheer difference in strength (its made to seem massive in the books), Nynaeve is single minded most of the time so tends to do well with one on one situations. Egwene would win hands down in a more battlefield situation though as her strength is better used on that.

 

Its like Lan vs Garath Bryne One on one Lan will destroy Byrne... but put him in a battle field and i'm pretty sure the great captain will have Lan defeated.

 

 

Though I've always wondered why Nynaeve has gotten put into a "dismal" category as the story progressed... completely independently of training she "invented" balefire. Yet after this and the healing she does, its like she was all the sudden written as less than she was. I've never been able to understand that.

 

 

edit:

apparently 900 posts happened before i finished this one lol

[Luckers]

If Egwene is able to defeat Nynaeve, then why would Eggy think Nynaeve may have had a chance where both her and Elayne failed? If they can't see the weaves Rand made, then why would Nynaeve be better equipped to deal with him?

 

Children often think strength is everything. It's the bluntest form of power. The most obvious. And, usually, the least effective.

 

Egwene has grown a lot from tSR. Nynaeve has too, mind you. In different ways.

[Nightstrike]

If Egwene is able to defeat Nynaeve, then why would Eggy think Nynaeve may have had a chance where both her and Elayne failed? If they can't see the weaves Rand made, then why would Nynaeve be better equipped to deal with him?

 

Children often think strength is everything. It's the bluntest form of power. The most obvious. And, usually, the least effective.

 

Egwene has grown a lot from tSR. Nynaeve has too, mind you. In different ways.

Book 4, yeah. I think they must be aware of how to channel and overcome men and women pretty early. I don't think anyone has claimed strength is everything, but there's plenty examples where it's mentioned it matters in a duel, and other situations. Both early and later.

 

Normally strength matters for Gateways too, but that isn't especially important for one of the asha'man wannabees.

[Suttree]

I don't know Lukers and Suttree, I think you are down playing strength to much in a one on one duel. Dexterity and skill come into play when the battle field is more or less even, and if the "candle vs bonfire" comment Moirene makes is any indication then no matter how skilled Egwene is she's going to lose going head to head with Nynaeve. Its only 3 levels of difference but if the Black Ajah sisters couldn't link and overcome Moggy (which i assume 2 or 3 of them together had to at least match Egwene's strength) then a couple of levels are apparently a big deal.

 

This has already shown to not be true in the Alivia/Cyndane show down. Alivia was more powerful AND had the paralis-net that stopped flows. People keep stating strength makes a huge difference in duels but have given zero support from the text to back it up.

 

Sigh next I feel like people would be arguing Eggs could have killed Rahvin on her own.

 

Why on earth would anyone do that? I know you are using hyperbole here but how would Nyn and Rahvin be remotely close on this topic? I mean even Rand needed help from Nyn to beat him.

[Entreri]

Eggy and Elayne thought maybe Nynaeve would have a chance against Rand, so strength matters.

 

The difference between Cyndane and Alivia wasn't dexterity. It was knowledge of weaves, knowledge of how to invert your weaves, and so on. Hadn't she inverted her weaves (which Alivia wasn't even aware was possible), then Cyndane would have been dead.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

If Eggs was to go up against Elayne then dexterity would play an important part. But as capable, experienced and knowledgeable as Nyn is, with her power level, Eggs wouldn't stand a chance IMO.

 

Sigh next I feel like people would be arguing Eggs could have killed Rahvin on her own.

 

No, Nyaneve would toast Egwene, she is too strong. Given equal strength, I would go with Egwene, mentally tougher, she seems at home in battle and I am sure dexterity will come into play somehow.

 

Egwene would defeat Rahvin in TAR. Females appear to be naturally more gifted in TAR and Egwene is top tier.

[Nightstrike]

This has already shown to not be true in the Alivia/Cyndane show down. Alivia was more powerful AND had the paralis-net that stopped flows.

I've answered that. Inverted weaves. Egwene and Alivia are entirely different in that way too.

[Luckers]

Reversed weaves.

[Suttree]

This has already shown to not be true in the Alivia/Cyndane show down. Alivia was more powerful AND had the paralis-net that stopped flows.

I've answered that. Inverted weaves. Egwene and Alivia are entirely different in that way too.

 

Which would be balanced out by FAR by the paralis-net. You have answered nothing and more so have done nothing to back up your opinion throughout this thread. You keep repeating them over and over as if it might make a difference but you have shown zero evidence from the text to back it up.

[Entreri]

]Alivia vs. Cyndane:

 

That was Lanfear, possibly the most knowledgeable and skilled of all the females and yet, she is the one who retreated.

 

Alivia is all offense with little or no defensive skills. Someone like Lanfear would know how to get by that foxhead Alivia had or anything else.

 

Bear in mind that Asha'man captured Alivia, Asha'man who would have no more than 1-2 years of training! Alivia has been training to be a weapon for around 400 years!

[Nightstrike]

Isn't it called reversed channeling and inverted weaves?

[Kamin_Majere]

This has already shown to not be true in the Alivia/Cyndane show down. Alivia was far more powerful AND had the paralis-net that stopped flows.

Yeah but that's like comparing the worlds best 1 armed paraplegic boxer to the worlds second best 2 MMA fighter. If there is a more crippled channeler in all of randland its Alivia, I love the poor dear but unless it has to do with blowing stuff up she's next to worthless

 

Nynaeve isn't anywhere near as dexterous with her weaving as Egwene, but she's far from crippled at it like Alivia