Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[sleepinghour]

Fionwe: It's interesting that Brandon's scenes don't matter very much when they describe Nynaeve's skills, but they definitely count when they describe Egwene's. You can't have it both ways. We know RJ did not intend to show Nynaeve's test, but he may well have intended for her to do it off-screen, or have her learn the 100 weaves regardless. Nynaeve has previously ignored almost everything else in favor of Healing, which ended up causing her problems more than once. It would be strange for RJ to introduce such an issue (and have other characters comment on it) without ever intending to resolve it.

 

Instead of treating this topic as a popularity contest between Nynaeve and Egwene, let's look at the bigger picture. As the series concludes, all the main characters finally begin to overcome their biggest flaws and weaknesses. Egwene's overcome her fear of the a'dam and will need to overcome her hatred of the Seanchan in AMoL. Elayne's learned the hard way that she can't stake everything on Min's viewing. Nynaeve's gained an understanding of Moiraine and learned some important lessons (in more ways than one) from Daigian and Cadsuane. Why should Nynaeve be the only character to remain stuck with the same problems she had in book 9? I really don't believe this was ever RJ's intention. I think he always intended for Cadsuane to be Nynaeve's Norla.

 

From the beginning, Nynaeve was set up as one of the strongest channelers and able to copy any weave after seeing it only once. RJ had to introduce some obstacles or things would have been far too easy for Nynaeve. At first it was the block; once that was resolved, he came up with Nynaeve not having enough knowledge of non-Healing weaves (which was never an issue before the block disappeared...it was very clearly meant to replace the block as an obstacle). To a certain degree, Nynaeve's lack of interest in anything but Healing reflected her lack of interest in the Tower itself, so it's only natural that should change as her feelings about Aes Sedai do. It would be unrealistic for it to last forever, not to mention highly disappointing if a main character failed to reach her full potential when all the other main characters did.

Additionally, Nynaeve's lack of knowledge was partly the result of her block, which she lost in ACoS; WH takes place only a few weeks after that. There are six months between ACoS and the end of ToM. It would be strange for Nynaeve not to have progressed as a channeler while unblocked and hanging around experienced channelers for six months. After all, she doesn't even have to _try_ to learn new things, only see someone weave something once. She fought Semirhage's damane in KoD and would certainly have picked up all weaves they used. Plus, as the Kin said, "skills are honed with time." In ToM, Nynaeve thinks,

 

Her skill with Delving was improving, her weaves more refined, and she could find things once hidden to her.

 

If we look at this quote from LoC...

 

...Nynaeve repeated three times rather anxiously that Healing Logain had been an accident—and Elayne’s work with ter’angreal. Those were remarkable feats, especially Nynaeve’s, but there was only so much they could say, and there were only so many times Egwene could tell them how marvelous what they had done was and how much she envied them. Trying to demonstrate did not last long; Egwene had no real feel for Healing, especially not this complicated tapestry Nynaeve wove without thought, and though she had an affinity for metals and very good strength in both Fire and Earth, Elayne lost her almost immediately.

 

...it's clear it's all apples and oranges. All three Supergirls are talented channelers with very different skills and Talents. Nynaeve's main interest and biggest Talent is Healing, but it's hardly her only Talent—she was able to make an exact copy of Graendal's highly complex Compulsion weave _backwards_ on the first attempt and spontaneously discovered balefire on her own in TDR. I agree she's had a large knowledge gap, but I don’t believe that’s nearly as crippling as some people here have claimed, particularly not considering her strength, ability to innovate and copy literally any weave after seeing it once.

 

As for Egwene channeling: she has been channeling enough since becoming Amyrlin that two independent Sisters in the White Tower assess that she has pretty much learned all there is to learn about the OP from the Tower. She even impresses Suana with her Healing weaves, and we have ample evidence of how subpar they are.

 

"Impresses Suana with her subpar Healing weaves..." It's funny to see that used in support of Egwene. Anyway, it was quite clear that Suana wanted Egwene to join the Yellows for other reasons than her (non-existent) skill at Healing, though I agree that Egwene probably knows all traditional Tower weaves by now, aside from the 100 ones.

 

The second time, she was facing two fairly weak Aes Sedai who were linked, and she couldn't beat them till two members of the Kin helped her. Frankly, this is an excellent argument against Nynaeve's dueling skill.

 

No, it's not. We know from RJ that two linked people can use the Power "much, much more precisely, and therefore more effectively, than they could manage working merely as partners," which explains Nynaeve's difficulty in fighting a linked Falion and Ispan. That’s why she says, “I cannot do it alone; they’re linked.” Even with Kumira and Eben dead, the Forsaken ended up fleeing from the circles at the Cleansing. Why did Graendal (who even had an angreal) flee instead of fighting only Verin and Shalon? Balthamel was considered "quite strong in the Power" in the AoL, yet Aran'gar was driven off by only Daigian, a dying Eben, and Beldeine.

 

In the third OP duel, Nynaeve was handed her ass by Talaan. Talaan who was as strong as her, but showed greater dexterity.

 

It’s explicitly said that Nynaeve was exhausted at that point after channeling for an entire hour; she was almost too tired to summon saidar when she met Rand afterwards. However, Talaan was of equal strength and described by Nyn as "very agile, very deft with her weaves" so I don't doubt that she could have defeated Nynaeve even under normal circumstances. The fact that she was able to keep up with Talaan as well as she did speaks in her favor; if she wasn’t agile herself, she would have been outclassed much worse and sooner. It was basically a matter of distracting the opponent, and Nynaeve managed to distract and shield Talaan as well.

 

And to your last point... yes, Egwene did think she could face Mesaana in the real world and succeed.

I don't recall Egwene saying that, but even if she did, Egwene had access to every sa'angreal in the Tower and could easily have stashed one in her room. Egwene didn't even know Mesaana's OP strength (she could have been as strong as Lanfear, for all Egwene knew). Egwene did know Moghedien's strength—Moghedien, who is possibly the weakest of all Forsaken—yet didn't dare face her in ACoS after Moggy ran away.

 

And what if she had still been here? [Egwene] wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

 

"Proof positive that Egwene has, to quote Elayne, "very great dexterity". And you know who's the only other character who's been shown to be able to copy Gateways to an exact location? Rand..."

 

Er, what? Elayne says it would take very great dexterity to read residues of someone's else gateway and copy it; Egwene mentions she could Skim to the same place she saw someone Travel to. Those are completely different things. You’re grasping at straws here.

[Durinax]

The fact Egwene is losing this poll so badly is pretty disgusting. For the love of god people, she's the fighter, Nynaeve is the healer. Archetypes alone should convince you, then there's all the stuff Sutt and Luckers have said.

 

I get it, you WANT Nynaeve to be better because Egwene deserves no props for anything, but get over it. Actually, I didn't read the entire 13 pages, but I'm surprised I didn't see someone suggest Egwene would be better BECAUSE she's a cold-hearted, friend-backstabbing, power-monger, and would therefore fight dirty and remorselessly. But that's only true when it works against her, I'm sure.

yes but RJ has constantly put through his series that the best at healing are also the best at doling out death

[fionwe1987]

First off, this new quote system is atrocious. Mods: Is this permanent? It totally doesn't permit in-line replies. I can't break down someone elses post to reply in parts.

 

sleepinghour:

 

If anything I quoted from Brandon's work about Egwene is directly contradictory to what RJ said straight out, you're welcome to give me the evidence. 

 

And your argument that all the characters will have all their weaknesses washed away by the end is ludicrous. At this point, Elayne isn't at her full strength. If RJ intended for all characters to be as good as they can be by TG, wouldn't she have reached it?

 

As for skills being honed in time, this is true... if there is practice involved. Nynaeve practices her Healing weaves a lot, and we see the associated increase in her abilities there. Other aspects? Not so much.

 

On the Suana thing: my interpretation was that Egwene clearly still sucks at Healing because she has very low Talent for it. But within the boundaries of her Talent, she has done as well as can be expected, which is why Suana was pleased. This doesn't make Egwene even a competent Healer, of course. I only use it to show that Egwene doesn't leave any stone unturned when it comes to Channeling.

 

As for Nynaeve agains the two Black sisters: Yes, linking helps. But they were very weak sisters, and every circle in the Cleansing was much stronger than these two sisters combined, so those don't stand as good examples. But the kicker here is this: Liandrin felt that it would take her and two others to overcome Moghedien. Liandrin is stronger than Ispan or Falion, yet she felt she needed at least two more to take on Moghedien. But just Ispan and Falion were able to take on Nynaeve at a time when she was stronger than Moghedien. What does that tell you?

 

As for Talaan, I'm done discussing this. You're now down to saying that Nynaeve succeeded the first time against Talaan, at which point Talaan had never even used a shield before. If that is the standard you wish to judge Nynaeve by, you're only doing your own case more harm.

 

As for Mesaana:

 

 

"Besides," Egwene said, "you could do little to stop one of the Forsaken. This battle will be fought by sisters, and I am being very careful with the wards I set. I want my quarters to look inviting. If she tries to attack me, perhaps I can surprise her with an ambush."...

 

Egwene continued. "She's not a warrior, Gawyn. She's an administrator, a planner. If I can confront her, I can defeat her.

 

As for stashing sa'angreal, you're right that she could have. But she didn't. When she rushed in after Gawyn was found trapped in her wards, she had nothing in her hands, per his description. Her plan was to trap Mesaana in her wards and then rush in and attack, and she clearly didn't rush in with a sa'angreal. Based on her words to Gawyn, it seems she was content to use the fact that Mesaana was not a warrior as the required edge she would need.

 

 

And so it was that he found himself hanging from the ceiling, disarmed, struggling, as the Amyrlin herself walked from her bedroom. She was alert and fully dressed in a crimson dress trimmed with gold.

She did not look pleased.

 

As for the Elayne quote... please go read it, and the chapter it is in. Elayne makes a clear distinction between the Talent of reading residues and the skill of copying Gateways. What Egwene did was the latter, not the former.

[fionwe1987]

 

yes but RJ has constantly put through his series that the best at healing are also the best at doling out death

 

At torture? Yes. In combat? We have no such indication.

[Cybertrolloc]

sleepinghour, you're only allowed to use the excerpt you were given, not put it in context (and obviously reading the whole chapter is right out) :) Hopefully it'll be ignored and we'll have another 10 pages of denial.

[avernite]

As for skills being honed in time, this is true... if there is practice involved. Nynaeve practices her Healing weaves a lot, and we see the associated increase in her abilities there. Other aspects? Not so much.

 

Didn't we see Nynaeve practice fighting with the OP against Talaan, who is clearly better at it?

 

I mean, without a comparison of Talaan and Egwene the argument about those duels is similarly convincing as saying 'Rand got roflpwned by Lan in every training in tEotW, ergo he could not possibly beat Turak' (or whatever spelling, the Seanchan blademaster in TGH).

[elric]

great post Sleeping :)))

 

espaiceily loved this quote-> "Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. "

[Vardar]

 

 

I stopped reading in page 4. I wanna say y'all are basing your entire argument around the words of Cads, a person known for being a jerk and harsh. Her calling Nys weaves dismal could just be in comparison to her skill at weaving, or heck her idea of how good she should believes Ny should be.

 

Vards, welcome back mate!

As Barid said you may want to read the rest of the thread. We have the RJ quote backing up what Cads said and tons of textual quotes included as well. Cheers.

 

Thanks. A few weeks back the Internet safety index score of these forums dropped below the acceptable threshold for my gov rig. No idea what the heck that means or how t happened between postings, but it did. I've been waiting for tbtongo back up. Mayhap's I should report it to a mod or something. Ill catch up n the thread today however. I like the topic.

[BFG]

I don't plan on repeating myself, but there are a few things that I don't remember having come up yet, one goes for Eg, the other for Nyn, so overall my opinion hasn't changed, I think it would be close, but that Nyn has the edge.

 

First - Nyn likely hasn't reached her full potential yet whereas Eg has due to the Seanchan forcing.  In PoD Elayne comments that neither her or Nyn have reached potential but Eg has (or is very near), she's not sure about Talaan.  This means that although the eventual power difference will be huge, it may not be as big now as it will be, this is in Egs favor.

 

Second - Nyn is an instinctive channeler - healing, balefire, madness stuff is all stuff that she hasn't been taught, but worked out because she's interested in it.  Since WH (at the absolute latest) she's known and expected to be taking part in TG, which means she's going to have paid attention to everything she could related to combat.  This is definately in Nyns favor.

 

On top of this things others have commented on:

 

Eg has actually been feeling more clear-headed since at the Tower, despite the forkroot because she no longer has Forsaken headaches, which doesn't say the forkroot didn't have an effect.  Unless their's an interview about it, I don't recall that splitting flows is related to Power level, which means if she can split her flows 14 ways when strong she should be able to do it when weak, which again doesn't mean that it's easy, just to say that we have no evidence that she can split her weaves more than 14 times, and we have evidence that Nyn can split her weaves several times as well.

 

Cads clearly set up Nyn's 'training' with Daigian(?) to fill in the gaps in Nyns knowledge.  Not to mention that Nyn now has a lot more experience with non-healing weaves, this can only go to help her innovation (yes, Eg's innovative as well).

 

The battle at the Tower - In a circle with Voras wand Eg will not have had to worry about deflecting shields as they wouldn't stand a chance at cutting her off from the flow, she didn't have to worry about attacks to her back as she had more circles set up to defend the stairs.  She will have worked on defence, but the walls will have helped - I imagine that with the winds that she had going (I'm sure there are quotes about her hair blowing and such) arrows aren't getting anywhere near her.  This isn't to detract from what she did do, because it really was amazing  :) 

 

And for the last time with Talaan, yes she won because she was more deft with her weaves, but if she wasn't the same strength as Nyn, Nyn would have had more time to react - see battle between Rand and Lanfear in the Stone. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

As for the Elayne quote... please go read it, and the chapter it is in. Elayne makes a clear distinction between the Talent of reading residues and the skill of copying Gateways. What Egwene did was the latter, not the former.

No, you are mistaken, Sleepinghour is correct. Egwene did NOT copy a gateway. She used Skimming. 

 

From Encyclopaedia WoT: 

Opening a gateway directly to another place is called Traveling. It requires that one knows their starting point well. (TFoH,Ch6) The ability to open a gateway directly from one location to another. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Travel. Traveling requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Traveling from. Gaining sufficient knowledge takes several hours. (ACoS,Ch9) However, when Traveling a very short distance almost no knowledge is needed. (ACoS,Ch41) 

 

The ability to open a gateway to a dark dimension (not well defined or understood), move through that dimension, and open another gateway back into the real world in a different location. First mention isTFoH,Ch6. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Skim. Skimming requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Skimming to. 

Egwene remembers the place where they Travelled to, it has nothing to do with copying Gateways.

 

While they are related, the weaves are different. Egwene used Skimming, which is not copying a Travelling weave, else it would have been a Gateway opening immediately to just outside Ebou Dar. 

 

Edit: Also, you can split up quotes, just hit enter 3 times where you want to split the post and it does it for you. 

[fionwe1987]

 

 

As for the Elayne quote... please go read it, and the chapter it is in. Elayne makes a clear distinction between the Talent of reading residues and the skill of copying Gateways. What Egwene did was the latter, not the former.

No, you are mistaken, Sleepinghour is correct. Egwene did NOT copy a gateway. She used Skimming. 

 

From Encyclopaedia WoT: 

Opening a gateway directly to another place is called Traveling. It requires that one knows their starting point well. (TFoH,Ch6) The ability to open a gateway directly from one location to another. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Travel. Traveling requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Traveling from. Gaining sufficient knowledge takes several hours. (ACoS,Ch9) However, when Traveling a very short distance almost no knowledge is needed. (ACoS,Ch41) 

 

The ability to open a gateway to a dark dimension (not well defined or understood), move through that dimension, and open another gateway back into the real world in a different location. First mention isTFoH,Ch6. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Skim. Skimming requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Skimming to. 

Egwene remembers the place where they Travelled to, it has nothing to do with copying Gateways.

 

While they are related, the weaves are different. Egwene used Skimming, which is not copying a Travelling weave, else it would have been a Gateway opening immediately to just outside Ebou Dar. 

 

Edit: Also, you can split up quotes, just hit enter 3 times where you want to split the post and it does it for you. 

 

I never claimed she didn't use Skimming. But you're forgetting that Skimming also requires opening a Gateway, and the destination is built into the Gateway that is being opened. And Egwene clearly says that it was the weave she remembered that helped her Skim to the place six days from Ebou Dar, not what she saw on the other side. What Egwene essentially did is pick out the location from the Gateway Elayne wove, then incorporate it into her Gateway to Skim from an entirely different place. She didn't make an exact copy of that weave because that of course would be useless to her. But the fact remains that she could copy enough of Elayne's weave to hit exactly the same destination, and that is precisely what Elayne said would require "very great dexterity".

 

Oh... and just in case anyone doubts that Traveling and Skimming use the same weave:

 

He was standing on a disc, a six-foot copy of the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. Even the black half of it seemed lighter against the endless darkness that surrounded him, above and below; he was sure that if he fell off, he would fall forever. Asmodean claimed there was a faster method, called Traveling, for using a gateway, but he had not been able to teach it, partly because he did not have the strength to make a gateway while wearing Lanfear's shield. In any case, Traveling required that you know your starting point very well.

 

​Traveling and Skimming are ways to use a Gateway, differentiated by whether you know your starting point or not.

 

And you can, in face, alter an already made Traveling Gateway and make it into a Skimming Gateway:

 

An edge of excitement crept into her voice. "The most marvelous is Traveling." Without asking permission, she embraced the Source and wove Spirit. A vertical line of silver appeared against one wall and widened into a view of snow-covered oaks. A cold breeze blew into the room. making the flames dance in the fireplace. "That is called a gateway. It can only be used to reach a place you know well, but you learn a place by making a gateway there, and to go somewhere you do not know well, you use Skimming." She altered the weave, and the opening dwindled into that silvery line once more then widened again. The oaks were replaced by blackness, and a gray-painted barge, railed and gated, that floated on nothing against the opening. 

 

Of course, Beonin mucks up the explanation for Traveling here, but I believe it has been corrected in subsequent additions.

 

The point is, the Gateway for Traveling and the Gateway for Skimming are one alteration away. An already made Traveling weave can be modified to make it one for Skimming. And since Egwene says clearly that it was her memory of Elayne's weave that helped her, there's no question she was copying elements of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

......

 

I never claimed she didn't use Skimming. But you're forgetting that Skimming also requires opening a Gateway, and the destination is built into the Gateway that is being opened. And Egwene clearly says that it was the weave she remembered that helped her Skim to the place six days from Ebou Dar, not what she saw on the other side. What Egwene essentially did is pick out the location from the Gateway Elayne wove, then incorporate it into her Gateway to Skim from an entirely different place. She didn't make an exact copy of that weave because that of course would be useless to her. But the fact remains that she could copy enough of Elayne's weave to hit exactly the same destination, and that is precisely what Elayne said would require "very great dexterity".

 

 

I would have to re-read the sections in detail, but I will take your word for it for now. You usually make soild points, and I was baffled as to the reasoning. It makes more sense put like that, although it seems a lot different to what Elayne was talking about. Rand copies Sammael and Rhavin's weaves exactly, it's a bit different than what Egwene did. 

 

However, I think that even what Egwene did if you are correct would require great dexterity and agree. 

 

I shall have a look at it in more detail though (more out of interest than trying to prove or disprove in this debate)

 

Oh, also, re: quoting, did you want me to PM you a method to make it easier? You can also have a look at my post in this link which explains it. 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77328-a-sort-of-fix-for-the-new-quoting-systems/

[fionwe1987]

 

 

......

 

I never claimed she didn't use Skimming. But you're forgetting that Skimming also requires opening a Gateway, and the destination is built into the Gateway that is being opened. And Egwene clearly says that it was the weave she remembered that helped her Skim to the place six days from Ebou Dar, not what she saw on the other side. What Egwene essentially did is pick out the location from the Gateway Elayne wove, then incorporate it into her Gateway to Skim from an entirely different place. She didn't make an exact copy of that weave because that of course would be useless to her. But the fact remains that she could copy enough of Elayne's weave to hit exactly the same destination, and that is precisely what Elayne said would require "very great dexterity".

 

 

I would have to re-read the sections in detail, but I will take your word for it for now. You usually make soild points, and I was baffled as to the reasoning. It makes more sense put like that, although it seems a lot different to what Elayne was talking about. Rand copies Sammael and Rhavin's weaves exactly, it's a bit different than what Egwene did. 

 

However, I think that even what Egwene did if you are correct would require great dexterity and agree. 

 

I shall have a look at it in more detail though (more out of interest than trying to prove or disprove in this debate)

 

Oh, also, re: quoting, did you want me to PM you a method to make it easier? You can also have a look at my post in this link which explains it. 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77328-a-sort-of-fix-for-the-new-quoting-systems/

 

The difference between Rand's case and Egwene's is that she was making the weave from an entirely different location. Rand copied both Rahvin's and Sammael's weaves from exactly the same point, so he could open a Traveling Gateway. Since Egwene's starting point had changed, she obviously couldn't do that. 

 

If you remember what Rand did with Sammael's weave, he copied it, but altered it a little so that he would end up at a location a little distance from Sammael. Egwene kind of did that in reverse, so she would start at a different place and end up at the exact location. Again, there were obvious alterations to the weave, but they were deliberate, not an accident. 

 

Also, read the edits to my previous post for some evidence for the similarity between Gateways for Traveling and Skimming.

 

And thanks for the quote splitting help! Much appreciated.

 

Also, someone said Nynaeve hadn't reached her potential while Egwene had. That isn't true. Egwene is closer to her potential as of aCoS/tPoD than Elayne and Aviendha, but we don't know if she had reached all of it. Same with Nynaeve. I'd argue though that by ToM, both have reached it since both had long periods of time channeling immense amounts of the OP through a sa'angreal. Especially Nynaeve, who channeled much more. Enough to melt the sa'angreal. I doubt you can be forced more than that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I agree about the potential. Egwene was merely closer to her potential because of the forcing and Seanchan training, not that she had reached her potential. She has been shown to have grown since that point, and there is no evidence to suggest anyone believed she had reached her potential then. 

 

Also, you are correct about the ToM potential, Brandon said this in an interview: 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012

Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)

 

LUCKERS

Are the major characters all at their full strength now?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

LUCKERS

I just ask because, like Nynaeve has been channeling longer, and Egwene was forced. And Rand likely was too, and as a man gains strength more swiftly...

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, Elayne might not... I think she is, but she may not quite be there.

 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

 

Indeed, I agree about the potential. Egwene was merely closer to her potential because of the forcing and Seanchan training, not that she had reached her potential. She has been shown to have grown since that point, and there is no evidence to suggest anyone believed she had reached her potential then. 

Yup. Nicola even says to Egwene:

 

No one has ever gained so much of her strength as fast as you.

 

This was in aCoS. Note that she doesn't say "all her strength", as she would have if Egwene was known to have reached her potential.

 

 

 

Also, you are correct about the ToM potential, Brandon said this in an interview: 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012

Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)

 

LUCKERS

Are the major characters all at their full strength now?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

LUCKERS

I just ask because, like Nynaeve has been channeling longer, and Egwene was forced. And Rand likely was too, and as a man gains strength more swiftly...

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, Elayne might not... I think she is, but she may not quite be there.

 

 

 

 

Oh great. Good to have conformation on that.

[BFG]

First - Nyn likely hasn't reached her full potential yet whereas Eg has due to the Seanchan forcing.  In PoD Elayne comments that neither her or Nyn have reached potential but Eg has (or is very near), she's not sure about Talaan.  This means that although the eventual power difference will be huge, it may not be as big now as it will be, this is in Egs favor.

 

 

I brought up the potential, and agreed that Eg was at or near :)  Wasn't aware that channeling through angreal would bring you closer to potential tho, so thanks

 

EDIT: The quote takes away a potentially smaller strength difference being in Egs favor tho.

[sleepinghour]

And your argument that all the characters will have all their weaknesses washed away by the end is ludicrous. At this point, Elayne isn't at her full strength. If RJ intended for all characters to be as good as they can be by TG, wouldn't she have reached it?

 

That's not what I said. I said the main characters are now overcoming their biggest weaknesses and flaws, in particular the ones that held them back from becoming the leaders and fighters they need to be during the Last Battle. According to Brandon, they've all reached full strength except possibly Elayne, which I don't find surprising in the least. Aside from the fact that Elayne's heavily pregnant and can't channel reliably, her ability to channel is fairly unimportant to her current storyline. Elayne is a leader, not a front line fighter. Nynaeve, on the other hand, has pledged to go to Shayol Ghul with Rand, where her channeling ability is probably going to be very important—it's highly likely we'll see a rematch with Moghedien. Perrin and Egwene also learned some important things about T'A'R. They've all made strides in preparation for the Last Battle.

 

As for skills being honed in time, this is true... if there is practice involved. Nynaeve practices her Healing weaves a lot, and we see the associated increase in her abilities there. Other aspects? Not so much.

 

We've seen Nynaeve do plenty of other things in recent books that don't involve Healing. Presumably, she participated in fighting off the Trollocs attacking Algarin's mansion. She fought Semirhage's damane in KoD. She cleaned up the bubble of evil in Tear with Naeff. Removing madness from Naeff wasn't actually a Healing weave, and she repeated the process with Flinn and Narishma. You don't think doing highly complicated brain surgery is also good practice for doing other kinds of delicate weaves? Not to mention that with her ability to copy any weave after seeing it once, Nynaeve needs much less practice than others. Take the scene where Daigian shows her one of the 100 weaves, and Nynaeve nonchalantly makes three copies. There's not a lot of room for improvement there. Healing, on the other hand, can always be improved.

 

As for Nynaeve agains the two Black sisters: Yes, linking helps. But they were very weak sisters, and every circle in the Cleansing was much stronger than these two sisters combined, so those don't stand as good examples.

 

Where does it say that Falion and Ispan were "very weak"? The 13th Depository ranking (which isn't official, but very well reasoned out) puts them both on the same level as Verin. And again, you did not address my actual argument. With Kumira dead, Graendal would only have had to fight Verin and Shalon. Why didn't she? Daigian+newly raised Beldeine+dying Eben is hardly an impressive force either.

 

As for Talaan, I'm done discussing this. You're now down to saying that Nynaeve succeeded the first time against Talaan, at which point Talaan had never even used a shield before. If that is the standard you wish to judge Nynaeve by, you're only doing your own case more harm.

 

That was not the first time. You're the one doing your own case harm by constantly making false claims to support your arguments.

 

Letting her flows dissipate, Nynaeve adjusted her shawl and opened her mouth to tell Talaan what she had done wrong. And to point out—once again—that it was useless to try breaking free unless you were much stronger than whoever had shielded you. The Sea Folk hardly seemed to believe anything she told them until she told them ten times and showed them twenty.

“She used your own force against you,” Senine din Ryal said bluntly before Nynaeve could speak. “And distraction, again. It is like wrestling, girl. You know how to wrestle.”

[...] She was quick, true, but Nynaeve was not sure she herself could keep channeling much longer.

 

...But let's ignore context except when it's convenient. Egwene's exhaustion is a huge factor to be considered when she's fighting the Seanchan in TGS; Nynaeve's expected to defeat Forsaken-class channelers at all times even when she's exhausted, or else she is a terrible duelist.

 

As for stashing sa'angreal, you're right that she could have. But she didn't. When she rushed in after Gawyn was found trapped in her wards, she had nothing in her hands, per his description. Her plan was to trap Mesaana in her wards and then rush in and attack, and she clearly didn't rush in with a sa'angreal. Based on her words to Gawyn, it seems she was content to use the fact that Mesaana was not a warrior as the required edge she would need.

 

Egwene counted on Mesaana to be trapped by her wards. If so, would Mesaana be able to fight back? The description makes it sound like it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel for Egwene. Anyone in that position would have reflexively tried to free herself, giving Egwene enough time to fire off a killing weave. Mesaana would have been toast before it had occurred to her to even try to attack Egwene. She's not a warrior, no, so that's what Egwene was counting on, not any kind of duel.

 

There was a sudden explosion of light and a crashing sound. Gawyn found himself wrapped up in something strong: invisible cords, towing him into the air. His sword fell to the ground, and his mouth filled with an unseen force. And so it was that he found himself hanging from the ceiling, disarmed, struggling.

[Suttree]

...But let's ignore context except when it's convenient. Egwene's exhaustion is a huge factor to be considered when she's fighting the Seanchan in TGS; Nynaeve's expected to defeat Forsaken-class channelers at all times even when she's exhausted, or else she is a terrible duelist.

Could you be any more overly dramatic sleeping?

 

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training. As you said Egwene was also tired, was under the influence of a drug that muddies your mind and she was in a far more chaotic situation that would require more skill than a duel.

 

Lastly before you call someone else out on making multiple false claims you really should read how the thread played out. Fionwe's conversation with Barid on traveling showed who was in the right there an it wasn't you.

[avernite]

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training. 

 

Sorry, but wasn't Talaan in the circle to use the Bowl? That kind of implies she has a good amount of power, which you only get by using the power. Presumably in training.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Wasn't Nynaeve the first to use balefire, when the 3 girls were captive in Cairhein in TDR? That she instinctively knew and could produce a complicated and dangerous weave like that says a lot.

 

As for Egwene and her 'never discovering anything', lets not forget she reasoned out how to Travel, which is probably more handy than de-stilling/gentling.

[Suttree]

 

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training.

 

Sorry, but wasn't Talaan in the circle to use the Bowl? That kind of implies she has a good amount of power, which you only get by using the power. Presumably in training.

?

 

What are you referring to? She was learning to duel/shield for the first time. Not sure what being in a circle when someone else is using your power and you are not guiding the flows has to do with any of it?

[Kamin_Majere]

 

What are you referring to? She was learning to duel/shield for the first time. Not sure what being in a circle when someone is using your power and you are not guiding the flows in the slightest has to so with that?

 

I think avernite was talking about your "Talaan was doing this for the first time" statement and didn't know you meant dueling/shielding specifically or using the power for the first time.  It does get confusing with out the point of reference even if we are in a thread dealing with Eggy and Nyn all the sudden wanting to bash each others skulls in.

 

 

 

EDIT:

blood and ashes!  (at the new quote system)

[avernite]

 

 

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training.

Sorry, but wasn't Talaan in the circle to use the Bowl? That kind of implies she has a good amount of power, which you only get by using the power. Presumably in training.

?

 

What are you referring to? She was learning to duel/shield for the first time. Not sure what being in a circle when someone else is using your power and you are not guiding the flows has to do with any of it?

 

Her having sufficient power to participate in the circle for the Bowl indicates she doesn't have 'very little or no training'. It implies she has had plenty of training, rather. Possibly more than Nynaeve, given Nynaeve's lack of official training for much of her channelling career.

 

More importantly... in the first bouts of those duels, Nynaeve also managed to shield someone she says 'equals' her, and was holding the power. How's that for skill at channelling? Talaan clearly shows skill too, or she wouldn't have managed to win rounds. As an aside, in the same chapter (WH11) Nynaeve already talks about 'general trends' in the training, such as the windfinders never outright participating. This indicates the two pupils, Talaan and whoever I forgot, were being trained quite a lot. Nynaeve, as it were, was also practicing her channelling in these same lessons, as evidenced by her complaining (internally) about having to teach things she, at the time at least, didn't know too well.

 

As an aside, in the same scene Nynaeve manages to find the 'weak spot' in the shield. Rand did likewise, we know, but do we know any other channelers who managed that? I'm starting to suspect Nynaeve is pretty good at spirit (countering compulsion, finding the weak spot in a shield...).

[fionwe1987]

 

 

That's not what I said. I said the main characters are now overcoming their biggest weaknesses and flaws, in particular the ones that held them back from becoming the leaders and fighters they need to be during the Last Battle. According to Brandon, they've all reached full strength except possibly Elayne, which I don't find surprising in the least. Aside from the fact that Elayne's heavily pregnant and can't channel reliably, her ability to channel is fairly unimportant to her current storyline. Elayne is a leader, not a front line fighter. Nynaeve, on the other hand, has pledged to go to Shayol Ghul with Rand, where her channeling ability is probably going to be very important—it's highly likely we'll see a rematch with Moghedien. Perrin and Egwene also learned some important things about T'A'R. They've all made strides in preparation for the Last Battle.

 

They've all made strides, but to imply that this means they've all made strides in every way possible is ludicrous. They've made strides where we've seen them do so. You can't take that and assume they've improved in every other way as well!

 

As for skills being honed in time, this is true... if there is practice involved. Nynaeve practices her Healing weaves a lot, and we see the associated increase in her abilities there. Other aspects? Not so much.

 

We've seen Nynaeve do plenty of other things in recent books that don't involve Healing. Presumably, she participated in fighting off the Trollocs attacking Algarin's mansion. She fought Semirhage's damane in KoD. She cleaned up the bubble of evil in Tear with Naeff. Removing madness from Naeff wasn't actually a Healing weave, and she repeated the process with Flinn and Narishma. You don't think doing highly complicated brain surgery is also good practice for doing other kinds of delicate weaves? Not to mention that with her ability to copy any weave after seeing it once, Nynaeve needs much less practice than others. Take the scene where Daigian shows her one of the 100 weaves, and Nynaeve nonchalantly makes three copies. There's not a lot of room for improvement there. Healing, on the other hand, can always be improved.

So let me get this right. Because she used Air in Tear, in an inefficient way which made her need to rely on her strength, you're saying she has practiced all the many weaves Aes Sedai know? Similarly, with the Trolloc attack, where Nynaeve likely made lightning and fireballs... you're saying this means all sorts of other weaves improved because of this?

 

And no, doing something highly complicated in one field doesn't automatically make you good in other things. That's like saying all real life brain surgeons should be excellent at embroidery! As an in book example, look at the Windfinders. They excel at their niche, and their niche includes some immensely complex weaves. This didn't make them good at other things. The Windfinder Elayne met in Tear could make complex weaves of Air, Water and Spirit to manipulate the weather, yet she struggled with basic destructive weaves. Why? Because she had absolutely no practice at it. Elayne helped her, and she improved. But she improved at the things she practiced, not in everything in general!

 

And copying a weave doesn't mean showing finesse in it. Nynaeve can't even initiate a link properly in tPoD. She likely saw it once and knew how to do it. But doing it well? That's another thing entirely.

 

As for Nynaeve agains the two Black sisters: Yes, linking helps. But they were very weak sisters, and every circle in the Cleansing was much stronger than these two sisters combined, so those don't stand as good examples.

 

Where does it say that Falion and Ispan were "very weak"? The 13th Depository ranking (which isn't official, but very well reasoned out) puts them both on the same level as Verin. And again, you did not address my actual argument. With Kumira dead, Graendal would only have had to fight Verin and Shalon. Why didn't she? Daigian+newly raised Beldeine+dying Eben is hardly an impressive force either.

Verin had an angreal, remember? And while Granedal did too, hers was very weak by her own admission, and she was also facing fire from Elza's circle. And you're assuming Kumira's death came right away. How do you know she didn't die just as Graendal was finally driven off?

 

And Even was dying, but he held on so Daigian could draw on his strength. And Beldeine was newly raised Aes Sedai, but unlike the Wondergirls, its not like she was Novice and Accepted for a few years only. Being Novice and Accepted for just 6 years is considered remarkable. She was likely at it for a lot longer. Lastly, of course, this was a mixed gender link, which we know gives even more advantage than women only links. 

 

Like I said, these are not comparable situations at all.

 

As for Talaan, I'm done discussing this. You're now down to saying that Nynaeve succeeded the first time against Talaan, at which point Talaan had never even used a shield before. If that is the standard you wish to judge Nynaeve by, you're only doing your own case more harm.

 

That was not the first time. You're the one doing your own case harm by constantly making false claims to support your arguments.

 

 

 

Letting her flows dissipate, Nynaeve adjusted her shawl and opened her mouth to tell Talaan what she had done wrong. And to point out—once again—that it was useless to try breaking free unless you were much stronger than whoever had shielded you. The Sea Folk hardly seemed to believe anything she told them until she told them ten times and showed them twenty.

“She used your own force against you,” Senine din Ryal said bluntly before Nynaeve could speak. “And distraction, again. It is like wrestling, girl. You know how to wrestle.”

[...] She was quick, true, but Nynaeve was not sure she herself could keep channeling much longer.

 

...But let's ignore context except when it's convenient. Egwene's exhaustion is a huge factor to be considered when she's fighting the Seanchan in TGS; Nynaeve's expected to defeat Forsaken-class channelers at all times even when she's exhausted, or else she is a terrible duelist.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to claim here. I'll try to parse it out:

 

1) You're claiming that this session was not the first time Nynaeve was teaching them shielding? Nothing you've quoted shows that, and if you read further back in the chapter, Nynaeve talks of things she's having to teach that she's not so good at doing as other AS, and how Renaile laughed at her when she didn't do those things as well as she should have. Are you contending all those were about shielding too? Because they weren't.

 

2) And yes, Nynaeve was tired. How tired?

 

Or maybe it was effort that had warmed her, Nynaeve thought sourly. This lesson had lasted an hour already, by the ornate clock on the

carved mantel. An hour of channeling without rest would warm anyone.

 

An hour of channeling. That is tiring. But hardly so much as to exhaust you completely. That takes hours more of continuous channeling. 

 

3) Egwene and the sa'angreal. I don't remember ever saying that she should be given props for being tired at the time. Invented that did you? But since you brought it up, its worth noting that Egwene was channeling in the middle of the night, after very little sleep when she was in TAR anyway, immediately after receiving emotionally bruising information and facing the death of one of her earliest teachers. And she was using enormous quantities of Power, for hours on end, and against many many targets. There's a reason I didn't bring that up as a comparison for Nynaeve's efforts in WH, and the reason is that there's no reasonable way to compare one hour of channeling in the morning for practice with hours of channeling through a sa'angreal in a battle. 

 

As for stashing sa'angreal, you're right that she could have. But she didn't. When she rushed in after Gawyn was found trapped in her wards, she had nothing in her hands, per his description. Her plan was to trap Mesaana in her wards and then rush in and attack, and she clearly didn't rush in with a sa'angreal. Based on her words to Gawyn, it seems she was content to use the fact that Mesaana was not a warrior as the required edge she would need.

 

Egwene counted on Mesaana to be trapped by her wards. If so, would Mesaana be able to fight back? The description makes it sound like it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel for Egwene. Anyone in that position would have reflexively tried to free herself, giving Egwene enough time to fire off a killing weave. Mesaana would have been toast before it had occurred to her to even try to attack Egwene. She's not a warrior, no, so that's what Egwene was counting on, not any kind of duel.

Wait... now our definition of a duel includes not preparing before hand and not being fast with channeling while a weave you spun distracts someone else? So Rand vs. Rahvin and Rand vs. Sammael were also not duels right, since both those guys used wards? Can you possibly make a thinner argument?

 

There was a sudden explosion of light and a crashing sound. Gawyn found himself wrapped up in something strong: invisible cords, towing him into the air. His sword fell to the ground, and his mouth filled with an unseen force. And so it was that he found himself hanging from the ceiling, disarmed, struggling.

 

 

Yes. How dare Egwene distract a potential adversary. She needs to face Nynaeve in an out and out shielding match, right? That's the only way to define it as a duel. Because that's about the only duel Nynaeve can win... Nice circular logic there.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training.

Sorry, but wasn't Talaan in the circle to use the Bowl? That kind of implies she has a good amount of power, which you only get by using the power. Presumably in training.

?

 

What are you referring to? She was learning to duel/shield for the first time. Not sure what being in a circle when someone else is using your power and you are not guiding the flows has to do with any of it?

Her having sufficient power to participate in the circle for the Bowl indicates she doesn't have 'very little or no training'. It implies she has had plenty of training, rather. Possibly more than Nynaeve, given Nynaeve's lack of official training for much of her channelling career.

Ok you have totally lost me at this point. There is zero correlation between inclusion in the circle and training. The only reason she was included was her strength. One can be naturally strong without years of training. It doesn't help your cause in the slightest here.

 

To be clear no one has ever said Talaan didn't have some experience training with the power and we know she is strong. What we do know for fact is Talaan had zero training in shielding/dueling. That is made clear in the text and yet once she practices for a short time it is readily apparent how terrible Nyn's dexterity is in this arena. That is further highlighted by numerous other times in text where it is said she had a very rough touch outside of healing.