Elayne's personality

[BFG]

Responses in red

 

1. they cared enough to try? That's right, I forgot they were full fledged Aes Sedai at that time and could succeed where no one else had previously in 3000 years. Arrogance.

 

So you wouldn't have them healing stilling/gentling, travelling, making ter'angreal, healing madness (not even done in the AoL) I'm not an Eg fan, but they get huge Bonus points for caring enough to try. Additionally as Damondred pointed out, Rand found out how to tell if a woman was channeling from this (which he uses later when the Tower delegation go and meet him), so the results weren't a complete waste of time

 

2. I'm male. Mat is a skirt chaser, but still holds to Two River's values - im thinking victorian era stuff. As far as I can tell, Elayne is the only ruler being slutty. Berelain is a tease...Tylin is a cougar, but behind closed doors. Anyone else? Maybe slutty is too strong a word.

 

2R values are outdated even in Andor, Elayne is aware of her mothers affair with Gareth, becomes aware of her affair with Thom. Berelain is actively trying to split up a married couple, the entire palace, except Nyn and Elayne, are aware that Tylin is 'after' Mat.

 

Additionally ignoring the negative connentations associated with slut, it is defined as being sexually promiscuous - sleeping with 1 person that you're in love with and intend to marry doesn't even come close.

 

3. As I said, i didnt care about the war of succession. To be frankly honest, i dont recall any actual "fighting." Of course though...I'm of the opinion that Rand gave her the title and that should have been the end of that. Side note - if my mother that i thought dead, appeared in fine health - i would forget all thats going on in the world - at least for the first 10 minutes or so of our reunion. But I'm selfish that way. I love my mom.

 

Her reaction is understated - this is where I come closest to agreeing with you, but if you read the text she's in shock until Morgase brings up the politics:

 

"Galad," Elayne said, surprised at the warmth she felt for her half-brother. She rose, holding out her hands toward him. She'd spent most of their childhood frustrated with him for one reason or another, but it was good to see him alive and well. "Where have you been?"

 

"I have been seeking truth," Galad said bowing with an expert bow, but he did not approach to take her hands. He rose and glanced to the side. "I found that which I did not expect. Steel yourself, sister."

 

Elayne frowned as the second, shorter figure lowered her hood. Elayne's mother.

 

Elayne gasped. It was her! That face, that golden hair. Those eyes that had so often looked at Elayne as a child, judging her, measuring her—not merely as a parent measured her daughter, but as a queen measured her successor. Elayne felt her heart beating in her chest. Her mother. Her mother was alive.

 

Morgase was alive. The Queen still lived.

 

Morgase locked eyes with Elayne, then—oddly—Morgase looked down. "Your Majesty," she said with a curtsy, still remaining beside the door.

 

Elayne controlled her thoughts, controlled her panic. She was Queen, or she would have been Queen, or . . . Light! She'd taken the throne, and she was at least the Daughter-Heir. But now her own mother came back from the bloody dead?

 

"Please, sit," Elayne found herself saying, gesturing Morgase toward the seat beside Dyelin. It did Elayne good to see that Dyelin wasn't dealing with the shock any better than Elayne. She sat with her hand gripping her cup of tea, knuckles white, eyes bulging.

 

"Thank you, Your Majesty," Morgase said, walking forward, Galad joining her and resting a hand on Elayne's shoulder in a comforting way. He then fetched himself a seat from the other side of the room.

 

Morgase's tone was more reserved than Elayne remembered. And why did she continue to call Elayne that title? The Queen had come in secret, with hood drawn. Elayne regarded her mother, putting the pieces together as she sat. "You renounced the throne, didn't you?"

 

4. Where in the books does it actually say she wasnt going to hang him? Thats speculative. So this argument could go on and on.

 

Others are arguing this, so I won't repeat arguments.

 

5. i dont really care.

 

6. I dont really care.

 

This is the internet. you can say whatever you want to behind your avatar. If you think its crap, thats fine, thats your opinion. If I offend, i'm sorry. Don't read. Im not forcing this upon anyone. gosh. so touchy. sniff.

 

This is the internet, it's also a debating forum. You've stated specfic examples of things you don't like, I'm debating them with you *shrugs*

 

Likewise, I don't mean to offend, apologies if I have.

 

 

She recognizes Nynaeve as the leader from the get-go till the very end when Nynaeve leaves with Rand to Far Madding. She stays put as Nynaeve's follower except when Nynaeve decides to take a break before retaking the helm.

This is simply not true. The only time Nynaeve was clearly the leader was in Falme. Then she was the only one behaving like an adult by being the peacemaker when Nynaeve and Egwene spent the whole of TDR fighting which of them to be in charge. They were equal partners for sure after they left Tear in TSR. One of the reasons I like their storylines and relationship. One of the very few cases in WoT where people worked together as equals and complemented each other without obsessing who's in charge and fighting over it.

 

My recollection and understanding is that Nynaeve was the leader in Falme, the leader of the BA hunt in Tanchico, the leader during the return trip from Tanchico, the leader in Ebou Dar, and the AS leader in Caemlyn (she took the decision to free Alivia from the a'dam). Elayne confirms Nynaeve's leadership status in the following quote in TPoD: "You’re an Aes Sedai, and you are supposed to be leading us. Lead! And think!" Sure it isn't the leadership style Rand is using on the Tairens and Cairhienin; it is more of a leader among equals. Still, Nynaeve is the leader between them.

 

 

Nyn is leader amongst the AS because she's the strongest in the Power and that's how AS determine rank.

[David Selig]

Wait, Elayne is "slutty" because she made out with Rand for a few days? This is an absolutely preposterous claim. Mat holding to Two Rivers values of the Victorian era type even more so. What about Melindra? And she was hardly the only lover he had...

 

In Andor the Queen even marrying a commoner is no big deal, and having lovers is no biggie either, includin commoners like Thom.

 

My recollection and understanding is that Nynaeve was the leader in Falme, the leader of the BA hunt in Tanchico, the leader during the return trip from Tanchico, the leader in Ebou Dar, and the AS leader in Caemlyn (she took the decision to free Alivia from the a'dam). Elayne confirms Nynaeve's leadership status in the following quote in TPoD: "You’re an Aes Sedai, and you are supposed to be leading us. Lead! And think!" Sure it isn't the leadership style Rand is using on the Tairens and Cairhienin; it is more of a leader among equals. Still, Nynaeve is the leader between them.

Elayne said this in TPOD to get Nynaeve out of her mooning about Lan phase and to get some help in managing the whole circus with the Kin and the Sea Folk. And yes, technically as the stronger in the Power Nynaeve is supposed to be the leader once they became Aes Sedai. But in practice, this wasn't the case - Elayne got her way in Ebou Dar most often than not. Nynaeve was dead set against apologising to Mat, yet she did it because Elayne insisted. Nynaeve didn't want to go to the Sea Folk the second time (when Moggy attacked her), but Elayne convinced her to do it. etc. In WH Nynaeve tries to pull rank on Elayne before their meeting with Egwene in TAR and Elayne outright refused to obey.The Aes Sedai hierarchy system has nothing to do with strength of character anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Or a tav'eren army with casters and power wrote weapons...*hmmmmm*

Not sure why you bring up power-wrought weapons again - "hey, my sword won't need sharpening. Nothing in ze vorld can shtop me now!"

 

As to Perrin-Elayne...I guess they're not good friends, haven't really been together since Tear...but since she's already talked with Morgase and Galad pre-meeting him...you'd think she'd have a better idea of who she's dealing with, what type of man, and know the situation (which is why I think the argument 'how can she really know if Perrin is telling the truth' argument is so flawed. Morgase and Galad will attest he is not a liar). Again, if it wasn't for Perrin a good chunk of 'her kingdom' would be in ashes. She owes him for protecting 'her realm' if nothing else.

And what she owes him is surely cancelled out by his treason.

 

And the #1 thing that bothers the HELL out of me about her...it's the apocalypse The last battle. They're fighting for the very survival of the world. People are gathering armies and marching to the last battle...and she's working out marriage contracts and trying to conquer other nations. Mat comes to her with desperate need for cannons to help even the odds against the Trollocs to save lives and hopefully win the battle...and she's negotiating what happens to them after the war. Even Eggy with all her faults is focused on the TG, rallying the AS and pointing people in the right direction. Everyone is rallying, and working to get to the blight...Elayne's involved in herself and her power.

 

Time to put the resources of Andor to work. She should be (or Birgitte or a proxy/general) marching to battle with everything that can be spared. All the resources of the kingdom put forward to winning the battle.

 

Aside from the Seanchan...Andor is the only place not in full out war against the Dark One.

This argument has come up before. I find it unconvincing. Elayne has put effort into mobilising forces for TG. She has also kept an eye on what is to come afterwards - something she is not alone in doing. Mat's asks for cannons, why the hell shouldn't she get some idea of what will happen to them afterwards? Is he going to point the cannons she has made back at her? Who owns them? These are legitimate questions. The accusations of stupidity levelled at her would have a great deal of validity if her attitude was just to give him cannons and worry about the details later. She would be remiss in her duties if she only made plans as far as TG and not beyond. She's doing her best for her country, in a way that will not jeopardise plans for the LB. What a monster.

 

I honestly really don't understand why anyone likes or defends her. Of all the characters in the series she's the one who's grown the least. Mid series she was growing and evolving and making bold choices to help her friends and do what was right...but since she got back to her kingdom...she's regressed...

The problem is that rational analysis shows many of the prominent criticisms levelled against her lack validity. Yes, she does have flaws. But, much like with Egwene, people often complain about things which are untrue (so many times I've seen someone make a claim about Egwene never doing x, only for Suttree to post the quote of Egwene doing x), or take reasonable actions and portray them as flawed, stupid, reckless, selfish, or in some other negative light. Of course, this is often a problem when people attempt to use rational argument to justify an irrational, emotional dislike of a character. They start with "I hate [insert name here]", but then try to explain their hate, and the reasons they end up presenting end up having hole after hole punched through them. A lot of the time, it would be easier if people just said they couldn't quite put their finger on why, or simply acknowledged it was irrational dislike. If people attempt to frame their irrational dislike in rational terms, it can lead to frustration as others show how the rationalisation for the feeling is flawed, but the other side refuses to give ground, because ultimately they still dislike the character in question.

 

To be clear, the Kin would not participate other than in a healing capacity, so I guess Elayne wins on that. The Wise Ones, out, the Ashaman, out, none of them are getting involved, The Aeil, other than Gaul are sworn to Rand, you are not getting them either. Berelaine is out, so there go her guardsmen. Maybe Alliandre or whatever her name is stays the course, maybe.

Neald and Grady express personal loyalty to Perrin - I can accept him having their support, but any further support from the BT is rather more of a stretch.

 

On another note, Rand held Andor, make no mistake, Andormen are Andormen, Perrin is the only one we have seen that came close to a secession like plot. Rand had a couple hundred thousand Aeil camped outside (can't be much in the way of plants left out there with all the Aiel then Mercs). So, nobody was going to be trying to oust him. Then there is the fact that, I think most of the general citizenry around the land, really believe that he is the Dragon Reborn. That may make them wet their pants, but they aren't going to oppose him to any degree that leads to combat. We haven't seen that anywhere yet.

Rand holding Andor is untrue - he had the capital, but the majority of the country was not inclined to listen to him. He could have taken control had he wished to, but he didn't have the control.

 

6. There are a lot of BA scenes, their was walking into the trap in Tear with Nyn and Eg, for which I can find little excuse. Masking herself as a Forsaken which was stupid, but the second plan confronting them in their house was actually a good one.

People calling the Chosen disguise stupid in another one of those things which come up a lot, but falls apart under close scrutiny. In her palace, with her guards, who were alerted to her presence, and the people she was interrogating had no reason to attack her (and were shielded anyway, while Elayne was holding the Source) - she really did stack the deck in her favour. The most likely negative outcome is she gets rumbled and the BA feed her a pack of lies. Learning nothing useful and gaining helpful information were the other likely outcomes. What actually happened was so ludicrously unlikely to happen that she can scarcely be blamed for it.

 

I think you got me wrong - i say its speculative that she would NOT hang him. She never says hanging was just an idle threat. Its a legitimate threat. Or maybe speculative is not the word I want....sorry for my poor thesaurus.

ToM 45: "The easiest way to deal with it would be to find him and execute him, but of course she wasn't going to do that." That's Elayne's thoughts to herself, while talking to her mother about Perrin, and prior to the meeting.

[BFG]

6. There are a lot of BA scenes, their was walking into the trap in Tear with Nyn and Eg, for which I can find little excuse. Masking herself as a Forsaken which was stupid, but the second plan confronting them in their house was actually a good one.

People calling the Chosen disguise stupid in another one of those things which come up a lot, but falls apart under close scrutiny. In her palace, with her guards, who were alerted to her presence, and the people she was interrogating had no reason to attack her (and were shielded anyway, while Elayne was holding the Source) - she really did stack the deck in her favour. The most likely negative outcome is she gets rumbled and the BA feed her a pack of lies. Learning nothing useful and gaining helpful information were the other likely outcomes. What actually happened was so ludicrously unlikely to happen that she can scarcely be blamed for it.

 

 

Actually you're right; stupid is the wrong word to use. The plan itself is pretty good for the amount of time she put into it. It was a spur of the moment plan, the worst part of the plan was the dance she did to ensure Birgette wouldn't find out. I don't understand why it was so important that nobody knew where she was going or what she was doing (the guards just knew she was going somewhere in disguise, they didn't know where or why), but stupid is too strong a word.

 

I'm going back to my original statement (several posts ago) and replacing it with thoughtless. At this stage she knows that the BA have infiltrated her group (edited to add:once already, she also knows that the BA captured in Tear were murdered when they were guarded) and could be capable of reaching the cells. The situation is unlikely, but not outside of the information/experience she had available at the time - this is what makes it different from the attack on the lodging later - that failed because of a previously unknown ter'angreal

 

ToM Foxheads

She hesitated, missing Sylvase's next comment as a thought occurred to her. Birgitte wouldn't like it, of course. Birgitte didn't like anything. But Elayne had felt Birgitte move off out of the Palace somewhere, perhaps doing rounds of the guard posts outside.

 

"Excuse me, Sylvase," Elayne said. "I just recalled something that I absolutely must do."

 

 

"She's 'questioning' him?"

 

"That's what I heard, Your Majesty," Kaila replied.

 

"That means the two of them have gone out for drinks," Elayne said with a sigh. Light, this was a bad time for it.

 

Or was it a good time? Birgitte couldn't object to Elayne's plan for the Black Ajah if she was out with Mat. Elayne found herself smiling. "Captain Bent, you are with me." She left the theater rooms and entered the Palace proper. The woman followed, waving for the squad of Guardswomen standing in the hallway to follow.

 

Smiling to herself, Elayne began giving orders. One of the Guardswomen ran off to deliver them, though she looked confused at the strange list of commands. Elayne made her way to her rooms, then sat down, thinking. She would have to move quickly. Birgitte was in a surly mood; Elayne could tell that through the bond.

 

A servant soon arrived, carrying an enveloping black cloak. Elayne jumped up and slipped it on, then embraced the Source. It took her three tries! Bloody ashes, but being pregnant was frustrating sometimes.

 

...

 

"Light preserve us," one of the Guards whispered.

 

Elayne nodded to herself, her heart quickening in excitement. She wasn't worried. She'd be safe. Min's viewing promised that. She ran through her plans again. They were solid. But there would be only one way to test them for certain.

 

Elayne inverted her weaves and tied them off. Then she turned to the Guards. "Turn out the lights," she said to them, "and remain perfectly still. I will return shortly."

 

"But—" Kaila said.

 

"That is an order, Guardswoman," Elayne said firmly. "You had best obey it."

 

The woman hesitated. She likely knew that Birgitte would never let this happen. But Kaila was not Birgitte, thankfully. She reluctantly gave the order and the lights in the room were doused.

 

Elayne reached into her pocket and took out the foxhead medallion, the real one, and held it hidden and tucked in her hand. She took a deep breath, then created a gateway. The ribbon of light was bright in the blackened room, glowing and bathing them in a pale glow, like moonlight. It opened into a room that was similarly dark.

 

Elayne stepped through and found herself in the Palace dungeons, in one of the cells. A woman knelt on the far side of the cell, beside the sturdy door with a small window at the top, slotted with bars, that let in the only light in the dank cell. There was a small cot to Elayne's right and a bucket for a chamber pot to her left. The tiny room smelled of mold and human waste, and she could clearly hear the scratching of rats nearby. It still seemed too lavish quarters for the woman in front of her.

.

[Morden]

to be honest if Elayne had actually thought about the whole chosen disguise properly then she would done several things;

 

1) Had half a dozen guards outside the room with copies of Mat's foxhead.

2) Birgitta outside so she would know about any problems outside.

3) Set wards outside so that she would know instantly if anyone channelled outside the room (Other than the two kin maintaining the shield)

 

But and this is the big but... it was a spur of the moment and a clever one, impulsive and a big risk, but it shows that had she taken adequate risks she would not have had anywhere near as many problems and might well have found out the full details of the Caemlyn trolloc invasion.

 

Is this her fault? not really she just didnt think and to be honest she's pregnant and that does not aid rationality, sleepless nights, aches, mood swings...

[Mr Ares]

6. There are a lot of BA scenes, their was walking into the trap in Tear with Nyn and Eg, for which I can find little excuse. Masking herself as a Forsaken which was stupid, but the second plan confronting them in their house was actually a good one.

People calling the Chosen disguise stupid in another one of those things which come up a lot, but falls apart under close scrutiny. In her palace, with her guards, who were alerted to her presence, and the people she was interrogating had no reason to attack her (and were shielded anyway, while Elayne was holding the Source) - she really did stack the deck in her favour. The most likely negative outcome is she gets rumbled and the BA feed her a pack of lies. Learning nothing useful and gaining helpful information were the other likely outcomes. What actually happened was so ludicrously unlikely to happen that she can scarcely be blamed for it.

 

 

Actually you're right; stupid is the wrong word to use. The plan itself is pretty good for the amount of time she put into it. It was a spur of the moment plan, the worst part of the plan was the dance she did to ensure Birgette wouldn't find out. I don't understand why it was so important that nobody knew where she was going or what she was doing (the guards just knew she was going somewhere in disguise, they didn't know where or why), but stupid is too strong a word.

 

I'm going back to my original statement (several posts ago) and replacing it with thoughtless. At this stage she knows that the BA have infiltrated her group (edited to add:once already, she also knows that the BA captured in Tear were murdered when they were guarded) and could be capable of reaching the cells. The situation is unlikely, but not outside of the information/experience she had available at the time - this is what makes it different from the attack on the lodging later - that failed because of a previously unknown ter'angreal

The attack on the house was in KoD, and is what led to the BA being in the cells in ToM. Also, consider that while it is possible that the BA or other Darkfriends might try to kill or free the prisoners, it is incredibly unlikely that such a thing would happen while she was in the cells. She had also rooted out the BA traitor in their midst by this point. And Elayne sent orders to the guards on the cells - in other words, she had guards at both ends that any assassin would have to get through. The risk to her was tiny. For all that she rushed into things with little time for preparation, she still took all reasonable measures to protect herself, and did nothing to expose anyone else around her to any undue harm. Even taking steps to make sure Birgitte couldn't interfere was not as stupid as people would like to portray it - while Birgitte, as Elayne's bodyguard and Warder, has a vested interest in Elayne's survival, that doesn't mean that she would necessarily have objected, or have proposed a better plan, nor been able to point out any undue risk Elayne was taking. By doing things in the way she did, she cut down on the risk of outside interference, or Birgitte stopping her, or needing to be overruled.

 

to be honest if Elayne had actually thought about the whole chosen disguise properly then she would done several things;

 

1) Had half a dozen guards outside the room with copies of Mat's foxhead.

2) Birgitta outside so she would know about any problems outside.

3) Set wards outside so that she would know instantly if anyone channelled outside the room (Other than the two kin maintaining the shield)

 

But and this is the big but... it was a spur of the moment and a clever one, impulsive and a big risk, but it shows that had she taken adequate risks she would not have had anywhere near as many problems and might well have found out the full details of the Caemlyn trolloc invasion.

 

Is this her fault? not really she just didnt think and to be honest she's pregnant and that does not aid rationality, sleepless nights, aches, mood swings...

She already had guards outside the room, both armed non-channelers, and the channelers who were maintaining the shields on the prisoners. If you anticipate an attempt by the BA to free the prisoners, then giving the guards foxheads might be justified (assuming you had enough spares - how many had she made b that point?), but there is no reasonable gain by adding extra channeler protection during the interrogation. The risk of something happening during the brief period she was there was just too small (the BA weren't even there for her anyway). Sticking Birgitte outside would have alerted her, true - but then she would have the added distraction of her Warder being dead. I'm not sure that qualifies as a massive gain. And is it possible to make a Ward that can filter out some channeling? There are limits to what Wards can do, and I think you might be expecting too much - even if it is possible, Elayne might not even know it. Of course, the big point here is that it relies on Elayne being insanely worried about something going wrong - she might be too reckless now, but going too far in the other direction is a little dubious as a solution. Again, the chances of an attempt being made to free the prisoners during the time she was there is so vanishingly small that taking a lot of extra precautions is just ridiculous. Think about it - if the BA prisoners should expect to be dealt with within a month (dead or free), and Elayne's interrogation is unlikely to last beyond, say, an hour (otherwise they might start getting suspicious - I would say less than that, really, but I'm being generous here) then you have rather low odds of something happening while she is in there, and anything that does happen must be something that was planned to happen anyway - it is unlikely that a decent plan could be formulated and carried out in such a short space of time, given that they could have no advance notice of Elayne being there. The reason things went sour is not because of any lack of precautions or recklessness on Elayne's part, it is due to authorial fiat (or possibly ta'veren - Mat was in the city, after all). Neither of which can be protected against. If the author wants her stabbed, she'll get stabbed. If the laws of chance are bending to facilitate a negative outcome, then what can she do? She can't make it impossible, and trying to make it improbable when dealing with a power that changes probability is an uphill struggle. Realistically, she did everything she should have done - further precautions were unnecessary, and would likely have not done anything anyway. She was the victim of bad luck, not poor planning.

[BFG]

6. There are a lot of BA scenes, their was walking into the trap in Tear with Nyn and Eg, for which I can find little excuse. Masking herself as a Forsaken which was stupid, but the second plan confronting them in their house was actually a good one.

People calling the Chosen disguise stupid in another one of those things which come up a lot, but falls apart under close scrutiny. In her palace, with her guards, who were alerted to her presence, and the people she was interrogating had no reason to attack her (and were shielded anyway, while Elayne was holding the Source) - she really did stack the deck in her favour. The most likely negative outcome is she gets rumbled and the BA feed her a pack of lies. Learning nothing useful and gaining helpful information were the other likely outcomes. What actually happened was so ludicrously unlikely to happen that she can scarcely be blamed for it.

 

 

Actually you're right; stupid is the wrong word to use. The plan itself is pretty good for the amount of time she put into it. It was a spur of the moment plan, the worst part of the plan was the dance she did to ensure Birgette wouldn't find out. I don't understand why it was so important that nobody knew where she was going or what she was doing (the guards just knew she was going somewhere in disguise, they didn't know where or why), but stupid is too strong a word.

 

I'm going back to my original statement (several posts ago) and replacing it with thoughtless. At this stage she knows that the BA have infiltrated her group (edited to add:once already, she also knows that the BA captured in Tear were murdered when they were guarded) and could be capable of reaching the cells. The situation is unlikely, but not outside of the information/experience she had available at the time - this is what makes it different from the attack on the lodging later - that failed because of a previously unknown ter'angreal

The attack on the house was in KoD, and is what led to the BA being in the cells in ToM. Also, consider that while it is possible that the BA or other Darkfriends might try to kill or free the prisoners, it is incredibly unlikely that such a thing would happen while she was in the cells. She had also rooted out the BA traitor in their midst by this point. And Elayne sent orders to the guards on the cells - in other words, she had guards at both ends that any assassin would have to get through. The risk to her was tiny. For all that she rushed into things with little time for preparation, she still took all reasonable measures to protect herself, and did nothing to expose anyone else around her to any undue harm. Even taking steps to make sure Birgitte couldn't interfere was not as stupid as people would like to portray it - while Birgitte, as Elayne's bodyguard and Warder, has a vested interest in Elayne's survival, that doesn't mean that she would necessarily have objected, or have proposed a better plan, nor been able to point out any undue risk Elayne was taking. By doing things in the way she did, she cut down on the risk of outside interference, or Birgitte stopping her, or needing to be overruled.

 

to be honest if Elayne had actually thought about the whole chosen disguise properly then she would done several things;

 

1) Had half a dozen guards outside the room with copies of Mat's foxhead.

2) Birgitta outside so she would know about any problems outside.

3) Set wards outside so that she would know instantly if anyone channelled outside the room (Other than the two kin maintaining the shield)

 

But and this is the big but... it was a spur of the moment and a clever one, impulsive and a big risk, but it shows that had she taken adequate risks she would not have had anywhere near as many problems and might well have found out the full details of the Caemlyn trolloc invasion.

 

Is this her fault? not really she just didnt think and to be honest she's pregnant and that does not aid rationality, sleepless nights, aches, mood swings...

She already had guards outside the room, both armed non-channelers, and the channelers who were maintaining the shields on the prisoners. If you anticipate an attempt by the BA to free the prisoners, then giving the guards foxheads might be justified (assuming you had enough spares - how many had she made b that point?), but there is no reasonable gain by adding extra channeler protection during the interrogation. The risk of something happening during the brief period she was there was just too small (the BA weren't even there for her anyway). Sticking Birgitte outside would have alerted her, true - but then she would have the added distraction of her Warder being dead. I'm not sure that qualifies as a massive gain. And is it possible to make a Ward that can filter out some channeling? There are limits to what Wards can do, and I think you might be expecting too much - even if it is possible, Elayne might not even know it. Of course, the big point here is that it relies on Elayne being insanely worried about something going wrong - she might be too reckless now, but going too far in the other direction is a little dubious as a solution. Again, the chances of an attempt being made to free the prisoners during the time she was there is so vanishingly small that taking a lot of extra precautions is just ridiculous. Think about it - if the BA prisoners should expect to be dealt with within a month (dead or free), and Elayne's interrogation is unlikely to last beyond, say, an hour (otherwise they might start getting suspicious - I would say less than that, really, but I'm being generous here) then you have rather low odds of something happening while she is in there, and anything that does happen must be something that was planned to happen anyway - it is unlikely that a decent plan could be formulated and carried out in such a short space of time, given that they could have no advance notice of Elayne being there. The reason things went sour is not because of any lack of precautions or recklessness on Elayne's part, it is due to authorial fiat (or possibly ta'veren - Mat was in the city, after all). Neither of which can be protected against. If the author wants her stabbed, she'll get stabbed. If the laws of chance are bending to facilitate a negative outcome, then what can she do? She can't make it impossible, and trying to make it improbable when dealing with a power that changes probability is an uphill struggle. Realistically, she did everything she should have done - further precautions were unnecessary, and would likely have not done anything anyway. She was the victim of bad luck, not poor planning.

 

I may have to reread in depth (and will when I get there) but I don't recall any messages sent to the guards outside the cells. The guards left in her rooms didn't know where she was going, so if the gateway closed, wouldn't know where to reach her. She'd dealt with the BA in her group - that doesn't mean that there were no other DF around.

 

I've agreed that stupid isn't the right word, and I think I've already said that it was a good plan for a spur of the moment one, but it could have been improved, more safeguards made, if more time had been spent making it. If you're not expecting the BA to be killed then the trick she played could have been played any time - having talked to Birgette and spent time considering other things that could happen - contrast this with Ituralde (an unfair comparison - but an example of the top of my mind that demonstrates different ways of thinking) when he is running his guerilla campaign he wonders if they'll see the trap he's leading them to, he mentally shrugs and says if they do then he has back-up plans, then more back-up plans if the first don't succeed. Elayne currently has limited experience, so she should be seeking advice from people that have more.

 

I also quite like Elayne, but the above thought process shows that she's very impulsive (possibly one reason why I like her), but it is a problem.

[Maleshub]

Gareth Bryne and Thom Merrilin have "analyzed" Elayne, Gawyn, and Morgase to be "impulsive." Thinking with their hearts and then about the consequences later. And those two would know the Trakands, especially Morgase, better than anyone else!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Good plans or not, it was impulsive and imperfect.

 

A General who gets 50,000 men killed because an idea was "good at the time" but who didn't think through it or made backup plans is a poor general.

 

Just because it was decent, doesn't mean she was right or good to do it. She should have planned it out so that it was perfect in it's execution.

 

Truth is, she got good guards killed and nearly lost her own life when it could have been avoided. Sneaking off and saying "it'll be right" isn't a good plan. A good general plans for any and every situation. Her impulsive streak got people killed because she didn't think of the possibilities, however unlikely.

 

I mean, Hanlon and that comming to bust them out wasn't a likely scenario, but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

 

Now, I am not trying to say I don't like her because of this. I do like Elayne, but you have to acknowledge that her impulsive streak has killed many people because she didn't plan thoroughly.

 

If Ituralde or Bashere had planned the BA raid and/or the Forsaken impersonation, they wouldn't have been ambushed.

 

But hey, Elayne isn't a great captain, and I don't expect her to be, but one should acknowledge that impulse got her in trouble. She could and should have come up with a better plan.

[David Selig]

It was a talk with a shielded prisoner into her own dungeons, with guards and Kin outside. Elayne's about as safe there as anywhere. Why are people talking as if it was she decided to go into middle of the Blight or to a Forsaken meeting, with all the talk of contingencies and complicated plans?

 

but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

What exactly is dangerous about this? Given that the BA member is shielded and in prison...

[Maleshub]

It was a talk with a shielded prisoner into her own dungeons, with guards and Kin outside. Elayne's about as safe there as anywhere. Why are people talking as if it was she decided to go into middle of the Blight or to a Forsaken meeting, with all the talk of contingencies and complicated plans?

 

but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

What exactly is dangerous about this? Given that the BA member is shielded and in prison...

 

The critique might be "result-oriented." Regardless of how well she planned and how justified her actions, the results almost had her killed. Only Hanlon's desire to rape Elayne kept her alive.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It was a talk with a shielded prisoner into her own dungeons, with guards and Kin outside. Elayne's about as safe there as anywhere. Why are people talking as if it was she decided to go into middle of the Blight or to a Forsaken meeting, with all the talk of contingencies and complicated plans?

 

but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

What exactly is dangerous about this? Given that the BA member is shielded and in prison...

 

Well, evidently it was dangerous, considering the results.

 

As I said, I wasn't implying it was a BAD plan, your hyperbole does you no favours.

 

It was just a FLAWED plan. People died because she did not plan thoroughly. A good general plans for every possibility, no matter how unlikely.

 

"Should be alright" doesn't make the grade as we have seen, it got people killed.

 

No matter how you try and put it, the fact was, she didn't plan it out well enough, and the Shadow capitalized on it perfectly in both cases.

 

Again, as I said, and seem to be ignored, I am not saying this makes her a bad person, it is just a flaw. Impulsiveness got people killed in both cases. It was a decent enough plan for the spur of the moment thing, but that doesn't take away the results of the missions.

 

It could have been avoided if more precautions were taken in both instances. Considering the fact that one such "perfectly logical" mission failed recently due to unforeseen circumstances, and the number of times the Shadow has surprised Elayne with things like this in the past, that she knows Hanlon is a DF and on the loose, and the Shadow is targeting her, she should have been more thorough in her planning.

 

Just because something isn't likely, doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it.

 

Again, I like Elayne, I don't hold these things against her, but it could have been avoided. She just assumed the guards were there. Assumed that the Kin were safe. Reasonable enough assumptions, but "I didn't expect that" doesn't take away from the fact that it was a failing in planning.

 

If you are going to be the Queen of Andor, you can't afford NOT to plan everything thoroughly.

 

As just another Aes Sedai, it would be understandable But she is a Queen. She has responsibilities. With the weight of those responsibilites, one can't afford to be flippant about things.

[David Selig]

It was a talk with a shielded prisoner into her own dungeons, with guards and Kin outside. Elayne's about as safe there as anywhere. Why are people talking as if it was she decided to go into middle of the Blight or to a Forsaken meeting, with all the talk of contingencies and complicated plans?

 

but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

What exactly is dangerous about this? Given that the BA member is shielded and in prison...

 

Well, evidently it was dangerous, considering the results.

 

As I said, I wasn't implying it was a BAD plan, your hyperbole does you no favours.

 

It was just a FLAWED plan. People died because she did not plan thoroughly. A good general plans for every possibility, no matter how unlikely.

 

"Should be alright" doesn't make the grade as we have seen, it got people killed.

Who exactly did it get killed/ The jailbreak had nothing to do with her presence at the time. The guards who died were either way. Only ones who died as a result of this were Darkfriends.

 

No general can plan for every possibility. There are just too many variables.

 

The critique might be "result-oriented." Regardless of how well she planned and how justified her actions, the results almost had her killed. Only Hanlon's desire to rape Elayne kept her alive.

Yeah, I get this, but for me it's a silly way to look at it. You can't plan for everything and nobody is ever perfectly safe. It's especially annoying given that everyone in the books, including Elayne, does way riskier and more poorly planned things all the time and get away with them nearly every time, and practically nobody criticises them for them because they get lucky. But a good plan fails due to an incredibly unlikely string of coincidence and people just go on and on what a big mistake it is. It's a flawed way of looking at things.

 

For example, very few people criticise Perrin for his idiotic rush forward alone during the Malden battle, because he got away with it thanks to pure luck.

[Maleshub]

The critique might be "result-oriented." Regardless of how well she planned and how justified her actions, the results almost had her killed. Only Hanlon's desire to rape Elayne kept her alive.

Yeah, I get this, but for me it's a silly way to look at it. You can't plan for everything and nobody is ever perfectly safe. It's especially annoying given that everyone in the books, including Elayne, does way riskier and more poorly planned things all the time and get away with them nearly every time, and practically nobody criticises them for them because they get lucky. But a good plan fails due to an incredibly unlikely string of coincidence and people just go on and on what a big mistake it is. It's a flawed way of looking at things.

 

For example, very few people criticise Perrin for his idiotic rush forward alone during the Malden battle, because he got away with it thanks to pure luck.

 

In today's world, CEO's, leaders, Presidents, Prime Ministers, etc. are more often than not judged by results not plans or personal traits. The same applies to Elayne, Rand, Perrin, Cadsuane, etc. Since this thread is about Elayne, we cannot get into Rand's silliness, Perrin's obsessive behavior, Nynaeve's bullying, or Egwene's .... ..... But for sure Elayne isn't the worst when it comes to her faults. Many others (most notably Perrin's whole Faile rescue arc) deserve and get their due criticism.

 

And Elayne the adventurer is different from Elayne the Queen. The roles require different measuring critieria and conduct. What made us like Elayne the adventurer probably make a few of us criticize Elayne the Queen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Of course you can't plan for every possibility, and yes, it was a surprise, but not a totally unexpected one.

 

Really, who wouldn't expect a rescue attempt. I still think that considering just a few days/weeks before she was surprised by the Black Ajah when she had her perfect plan set up, along with all the other factors I mentioned, like, she knows that this kind of thing is possible Adelas, the two Blacks in the Stone of Tear that were killed imprisoned, the 85 times she was captured in some form or another, she should have learned to be less impulsive.

 

Making a plan in 5 minutes and keeping it a secret from everyone wasn't a "good plan". I can plan to walk down the street and not expect to get assaulted by thieves that doesn't make it a good plan. It just makes it a safe bet. A "good plan" would be one like Rand's plan to kill Sammael. That was carefully thought out over weeks and weeks (I don't expect her to plan something so minor for weeks, but the point is there). So that may be me being pedantic over the wording, but it certainly wasn't a "good plan". It was just a safe assumption made impulsively.

 

So while I didn't expect her or anyone to have anticipated the events, she could have made plans that may have reduced severity the resulting events.

 

Putting aside those two incidents, impulsiveness is a vice she displays, and it didn't help in either incident. I even agree with you to an extent, I don't believe as some people may do that it was stupid. It was just reckless, and recklessness, even in the safest conditions is still a flaw.

 

As to Perrin and what not, I don't see how that has any bearing on the situation. I said nothing about Perrin's recklessness, nor does it excuse Elayne's behaviour just because some people are OK with it. But since you mentioned it, I totally agree with you. If there was a topic about this made, I would be 100% agreeing with you. It was a much worse decision that Elayne's in this instance, and yes, others have also made reckless decisions.

 

Since this is a topic about Elayne though, I am only talking about Elayne herself, not compared to other characters. A flaw is still a flaw, even if another character is worse.

[Mr Ares]

I may have to reread in depth (and will when I get there) but I don't recall any messages sent to the guards outside the cells. The guards left in her rooms didn't know where she was going, so if the gateway closed, wouldn't know where to reach her. She'd dealt with the BA in her group - that doesn't mean that there were no other DF around.

Then who do you think she was sending orders to? She would need to make sure that any noise caused didn't cause the guards to interfere.

 

 

 

I've agreed that stupid isn't the right word, and I think I've already said that it was a good plan for a spur of the moment one, but it could have been improved, more safeguards made, if more time had been spent making it. If you're not expecting the BA to be killed then the trick she played could have been played any time - having talked to Birgette and spent time considering other things that could happen - contrast this with Ituralde (an unfair comparison - but an example of the top of my mind that demonstrates different ways of thinking) when he is running his guerilla campaign he wonders if they'll see the trap he's leading them to, he mentally shrugs and says if they do then he has back-up plans, then more back-up plans if the first don't succeed. Elayne currently has limited experience, so she should be seeking advice from people that have more.

My point is that further safeguards are absurd - she couldn't reasonably be any safer. You have to accept that beyond a certain point, further precautions become unnecessary, and possibly even counter-productive. Elayne was safe against anything short of an armed rescue attempt during the time she was in there - and if she was at all worried about an armed rescue attempt, while she was in there or not, she should have increased the guards accordingly or taken other measures to prevent a jailbreak. It wasn't impulsiveness or recklessness that led to problems. Outside of not going in there, there was nothing more she could have done, and by not going in there she either ignores an opportunity to gain valuable intelligence, or she sends someone else in her stead - who was better suited to the role than her?

 

 

Good plans or not, it was impulsive and imperfect.

 

A General who gets 50,000 men killed because an idea was "good at the time" but who didn't think through it or made backup plans is a poor general.

 

 

Just because it was decent, doesn't mean she was right or good to do it. She should have planned it out so that it was perfect in it's execution.

 

Truth is, she got good guards killed and nearly lost her own life when it could have been avoided. Sneaking off and saying "it'll be right" isn't a good plan. A good general plans for any and every situation. Her impulsive streak got people killed because she didn't think of the possibilities, however unlikely.

No guards in this instance died as a result of her plans, or her impulsiveness.

 

 

I mean, Hanlon and that comming to bust them out wasn't a likely scenario, but when doing something as dangerous as pretending to be a Forsaken and confronting Black Ajah, it is best to plan, specially when lives are at stake.

It wasn't very dangerous - interrogating a prisoner in your own dungeons while you have armed back up and the OP, while they are shielded sounds, to me at least, quite a way from dangerous. And while she did put her own life in danger, crossing the road puts ones life in danger. If she was doing the equivalent of running out in front of speeding cars, then she would be reckless, but really she had looked both ways and there was nothing visible that wasn't parked.

 

 

Now, I am not trying to say I don't like her because of this. I do like Elayne, but you have to acknowledge that her impulsive streak has killed many people because she didn't plan thoroughly.

Indeed. But not in this instance. I take exception to people using the ToM incident as evidence of her being stupid, thoughtless or reckless, when actually she came up with a good plan, with reasonable safeguards, sufficient precautions for any problem she was likely to face, and a way out. There was no inherent flaw in the plan, no inherent lack of safety, that further planning or precautions could help with. The problem is that a number of Darkfriends and BA attacked her dungeons and freed the prisoners - something which had nothing to do with her presence. If there were insufficient guards, then more guards were always needed - her presence was a non-factor.

 

 

If Ituralde or Bashere had planned the BA raid and/or the Forsaken impersonation, they wouldn't have been ambushed.

I see no reason to conclude that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Now, I am not trying to say I don't like her because of this. I do like Elayne, but you have to acknowledge that her impulsive streak has killed many people because she didn't plan thoroughly.

 

Indeed. But not in this instance. I take exception to people using the ToM incident as evidence of her being stupid, thoughtless or reckless, when actually she came up with a good plan, with reasonable safeguards, sufficient precautions for any problem she was likely to face, and a way out. There was no inherent flaw in the plan, no inherent lack of safety, that further planning or precautions could help with. The problem is that a number of Darkfriends and BA attacked her dungeons and freed the prisoners - something which had nothing to do with her presence. If there were insufficient guards, then more guards were always needed - her presence was a non-factor.

 

 

If Ituralde or Bashere had planned the BA raid and/or the Forsaken impersonation, they wouldn't have been ambushed.

I see no reason to conclude that.

 

1. Yes, you are quite right. I should have separated my thoughts on this. I believe my problem was that she should have took more precautions with regards to guarding them. There should have been a tighter guard etc.. However, as you said, was not in relation to the actual Forsaken impersonation. It was a separate matter. She should have known that a rescue attempt was likely as I have stated above.

 

2. Well, they didn't receive the title of Great Captain's for nothing. That is what they do, avoid ambushes and create their own. The Forsaken impersonation would have gone well, because they would have posted a tighter guard in case of a rescue attempt - again, it's what they do. They would have had several contingency plans for the BA house raid. They would have planned for more BA just in case. We see this through Ituralde's thoughts. His plans a thorough, and for every plan he has several contingencies. Bashere is similar. That's what makes them Great Captains.

 

Elayne is not a Great Captain - which you can hardly fault her for. The point was that a bit more thought could have reduced the risks. Yes, the BA house raid was a sound plan, but impulsive ones nonetheless without much in the way of preparation and planning.

 

. I believe there is reason to believe they would have handled it better. They have shown the potential and thought processes to show that they could have made a better plan, but really, it is futile to speculate on what would or would not have happened, could does not mean would. So I should probably revise the statement to say that if Elayne thought more like Ituralde or Bashere and less impulsively, the BA raid could have gone better.

[joeron bigelow]

lots of words...pretty touchy subject. Let me just say that I appreciate everyone pointing out what they feel is wrong with the "non liking" of Elayne.

 

I will just say I dont like her, please dont bash me too much. haha. I have nothing to support my opinion. Is that a sin?

[Durinax]

lots of words...pretty touchy subject. Let me just say that I appreciate everyone pointing out what they feel is wrong with the "non liking" of Elayne.

 

I will just say I dont like her, please dont bash me too much. haha. I have nothing to support my opinion. Is that a sin?

no, but if you had some reason. then it would be easier to understand, and you may even realize things about her that you do like

[Ozzie_aiel]

I like Elayne, shes passionate. I think most of the problems people have with her is because of this. She may come across as haughty but let not forget the first time we saw her was climbing down from a tree, not the actions of a true snob. Through her POV we learn of her kindness, especially for the less fortunate, but her biggest fault is her nievity; she has no idea how things really are for most of her subjects.

 

There are times when I didn't like her. Her treatment of Mat and his redarms on the way Ebou Dar springs to mind but these are few and far between.

 

All in all she comes across slightly child-like, play acting the snooty queen, trying to learn swear words and rushing around for adventure. Even as she grows she doesn't lose most of this which is why I think people say she doesn't evolve much. When things become serious so does she, but the young girl who climbed a tree to see a false dragon and tended a stranger's wounds is never far away.

[avernite]

Pff. Ituralde got creamed by a single man blowing a trumpet. Granted, a well-trained man, and it's not like he could do much about it... but I'd consider that not much better than getting into trouble because a darkfriend raid hits just as you enter your own dungeon. Ituralde was in a battle situation, so if anything wrong orders would seem more likely than enemies entering the heart of your own palace.

 

Ituralde was hurt, and got bailed out by others. Elayne was hurt, and only needed rest and healing. Who's better at it, really? ;)

[Austin Arsenault]

i love her cause she is always thinking about others even if she does come off as a spoiled brat sometimes.

[Bobwheel]

Elayne is one of my favorite characters. When she got drunk for the first time was one of my highlights.

 

Mostly all her travels with Nynaeve was lots of fun. The only thing I did not like that she did is that horrible deal with the Sea Folk.

 

You would think as the Heir to a nation her mother would have taught her to bargain better then that.

[Maleshub]

Elayne is one of my favorite characters. When she got drunk for the first time was one of my highlights.

 

Mostly all her travels with Nynaeve was lots of fun. The only thing I did not like that she did is that horrible deal with the Sea Folk.

 

You would think as the Heir to a nation her mother would have taught her to bargain better then that.

 

There were two bargains: The Bowl of Winds bargain and the "Caemlyn Bargain." Both were horrible; but the second was totally useless and unnecessary by her own account:

 

KoD: Siege

 

No, what nettled her was that she had not thought of using the Kin that way earlier. If she had, she would not be saddled with Sea Folk still, not to mention a bargain that gave up a square mile of Andor. Light, a square mile! Her mother had never given up one inch of Andor.

[Suttree]

There were two bargains: The Bowl of Winds bargain and the "Caemlyn Bargain." Both were horrible; but the second was totally useless and unnecessary by her own account:

 

KoD: Siege

 

No, what nettled her was that she had not thought of using the Kin that way earlier. If she had, she would not be saddled with Sea Folk still, not to mention a bargain that gave up a square mile of Andor. Light, a square mile! Her mother had never given up one inch of Andor.

 

A square mile that is going to bring in quite a bit of revenue to Andor, so it is hardly useless.