What exactly happened to Graendal?

[Leyrann]

I don't have the prologue, nor have I listened to that released chapter, but I really want to know it. What happened to her exactly?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, there hasn't been an actual explanation straight out.

 

However, Graendal was killed and Transmigrated into an ugly woman's body after her failures in ToM. She is no longer Graendal but Hessalam, "Without Forgiveness" in the Old Tongue.

[Pinzarn]

Well, there hasn't been an actual explanation straight out.

 

However, Graendal was killed and Transmigrated into an ugly woman's body after her failures in ToM. She is no longer Graendal but Hessalam, "Without Forgiveness" in the Old Tongue.

 

Shaidar Haran showed up for Graendal in the Epilogue of ToM.

Stuff happened.

She had to die during the "stuff" to be transmigrated into Hessalam.

 

We don't know the "stuff" yet.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah true, I just assumed that they had read ToM, so we know that SH did some stuff. Probably shouldn't have assumed so, good team work.

[Sentinel78]

Well, there hasn't been an actual explanation straight out.

 

However, Graendal was killed and Transmigrated into an ugly woman's body after her failures in ToM. She is no longer Graendal but Hessalam, "Without Forgiveness" in the Old Tongue.

 

Shaidar Haran showed up for Graendal in the Epilogue of ToM.

Stuff happened.

She had to die during the "stuff" to be transmigrated into Hessalam.

 

We don't know the "stuff" yet.

 

I dunno, transmigration seems to take some amount of effort. Aginor / Balthamel died at the end of Book 1 and had to wait to Book 6 to get transmigrated (a year or so in book-time?). Ishy died at the end of Book 3 and had to wait to Book 7 (at least, that's when he started getting viewpoints again). I have to believe that the Dark One has ways to mangle someone's face and body without actually killing them. I can't remember if her height or body-type changed, that would be suggestive of transmigration, but getting a permanent ugly mask shouldn't require that.

 

Note: Lanfear died Book 5 and was introduced again in Book 9, but also, she was only killed to get her away from the Aelfinn. Perhaps bargaining her free was more than Moridin wanted to do.

[athrian]

SH took away Graendal's makeup kit. After a few thousand years, she's just not the looker she used to be.

[Scott Bishop]

Burn,Pillage,Rape; no wait it's rape first then pillage and burn.

[Entreri]

SH had some fun with Grandael, after he finished with her, toasted her. Her punishment was very weak for her crimes.

[Matthew79]

I wonder if they've kept her body intact. As sort of incentive, along the lines of, do well and maybe you'll get it back.

Saying that I can't see the Dark One being that forgiving. Probably more along the lines of, fail again and you'll have far worse.

 

[Sharaman]

Since the GLoD has a direct link to Shaidar, or in another sense is SH, maybe he can grab Graendal's soul instantly? This would be different from situations where other people have died at somebody else's hand.

He may also have intended to kill G and already had the new body set up?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also remember the Seals are very, very weak at this point, the DO's influence has increased since EotW and tDR when those other three died.

[Wool-headed lummox]

More likely, the DO/Shaidar Haran/Moridin would have implied that, if Hessalam serves them well, she will be rewarded with a new body, more beautiful than the original one. An easy promise to make, considering that they anticipate the end of all existence in less than a month's time.

[TristanWebb]

I name you without forgiveness, but if you do good I will forgive you?

[herid]

I dunno, transmigration seems to take some amount of effort. Aginor / Balthamel died at the end of Book 1 and had to wait to Book 6 to get transmigrated (a year or so in book-time?). Ishy died at the end of Book 3 and had to wait to Book 7 (at least, that's when he started getting viewpoints again). I have to believe that the Dark One has ways to mangle someone's face and body without actually killing them. I can't remember if her height or body-type changed, that would be suggestive of transmigration, but getting a permanent ugly mask shouldn't require that.

 

Note: Lanfear died Book 5 and was introduced again in Book 9, but also, she was only killed to get her away from the Aelfinn. Perhaps bargaining her free was more than Moridin wanted to do.

 

Lanfear didn't die in Book 5. As you say she died when Moridin came for her to get her out of the Finn-land. We don't have a firm date on that but it definitely happened much later. The first we hear of Moridin in his new body is in aCoS, ch 20 where he shows up as a "watcher". In aCoS ch 25 (the very next day chronologically!) Moggy sees him wearing a second mindtrap, likely Cyndane's. He is also wearing two mindtraps in tPoD, prologue. Cyndane shows up in person in tPoD, ch 12 which is only a short time later in terms of timeline. All of this suggests that Cyndane was transmigrated very quickly after she died. I'm not saying that Graendal was definitely transmigrated but she certainly could have been.

[Morden]

I think part of the reason it took so long for the soul transmigration is finding acceptable hosts. The DO actually wanted half decent hosts for the others, hers is a punishment so much easier to find some haggered beast of a woman to plant her in.

 

That story wise it would be a bit difficult for Rand and chums if they killed a forsaken without balefire and they then pop up the next day to try killing him again. Sustain massive damage in battle? no problem kill yourself and reload from previous save point...

[hjustinpace]

The new host of each of the four transmigrated Forsaken suggests that the DO had very definite ideas of what type of body he wanted to use. The big difference, I think, is that while the first three were transmigrated while the Blight was quiet, Graendal got transmigrated at the inception of the Trolloc Wars part duex.

[Danjaman]

When I read the prologue, I assumed the DO cast some sort of ugliness spell upon her (how else would Moghedien recognize her eyes?).

However, ewot says she is killed, and it makes sense.

Either way, it's really not a big deal.

[Shaidar]

I simply suspect transmigration has become a lot easier now than two years ago. After all the Pattern is full of holes now.

[Leyrann]

She must want to suicide now...

[herid]

The new host of each of the four transmigrated Forsaken suggests that the DO had very definite ideas of what type of body he wanted to use. The big difference, I think, is that while the first three were transmigrated while the Blight was quiet, Graendal got transmigrated at the inception of the Trolloc Wars part duex.

That's not what Jordan said on the issue.

 

 

Interview: Apr 20th, 2004

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

Week 3 Question (Matt Hatch)

 

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

But regardless, Graendal is pretty clearly transmigrated. An ugly illusion mask would not be much of a punishment IMO. And the fact that she got a new name is very suggestive too. All the transmigrated Forsaken got new names, including Moridin himself. He reacted quite negatively when Rand called him Ishamael in tGS. That's similar to his reaction to Moggy calling Hessalam Graendal. On the other hand, nobody who wasn't transmigrated got new names before.

[rand4747]

the DO seemed to choose something opposite to what they see themselves as. Graendal prided herself in beuty so she got an ugly body. Balthamel got a womans body speficially, and Aginor got the "less than imposing" body. Moridin though was not being punished so he got something decent. There probably is not a lot of choices though so it still relies on what the Darkone has available.

 

"By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One."

[Maleshub]

the DO seemed to choose something opposite to what they see themselves as. Graendal prided herself in beuty so she got an ugly body. Balthamel got a womans body speficially, and Aginor got the "less than imposing" body. Moridin though was not being punished so he got something decent. There probably is not a lot of choices though so it still relies on what the Darkone has available.

 

"By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One."

 

Aran'gar was reincarnated in a female body for a purpose. And the Foresaken killed by Rand and then reincarnated were given bodies that LTT would not recognize. The Shadow knows that LTT is very familiar with the "Chosen." Giving them new bodies serves both as punishment and disguise.