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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work


Luckers

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Of course it is the Cadsiane you know; that is because it is the Cadsuane you built in your mind. In a lot of ways it is the Cadsuane I know. However, we perceive her differently. That is the problem with this debate. No one is really in any position to state that her actions go against her character. Why? For the simple fact that you're not the creative process behind this character.

 

If you want to judge presentation, prose etc.. that is different. Otherwise, everything you state as objective evidence is simply your subjective interpretation of what is being written.

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Btw wanted to pull this post over as well. This is in regards to how things were split...

 

Dom

 

It's not so much about Brandon as to what RJ had in mind when he wanted to keep it as one book.

Saying he didn't want to overshadow Perrin-Mat is putting a good face on things, when going with Rand-Egwene is a last minute compromise he came up with, not what he planned for originally. Brandon also said the split itself was a compromise, that he didn't have the clout to keep it to one book bt that RJ was right to have wanted to keep it as a 2000-page book.

For having read all the scenes once in something close to chronological order (and by the way if Brandon goes forward with his idea of reworking things a little to have an ebook version I'll sure be happy), I didn't feel Mat or Perrin were "overshadowed". On the contrary, some obvious parallels to the story lines of either Egwene and Rand are far more obvious that way than when TGS and TOM are read as published. Missing elements strenghtening the story of Rand or Egwene fall in place. Perrin's story comes out far more strongly as an epiphany about himself and his nature echoing Rand's and offers a third perspective on leadership, the gholam makes a fairly good concrete monster from the far past to echo the darkness of Rand, and the whole Ghenjei episode mirrors Egwene's labyrinthine struggle caught between the snakes (BA) and the foxes (Elaida and the Reds) really quite well.

Divided the stories of Perrin and Mat are totally overshadowed by TGS anyway, even more so because Brandon chose to keep the post-epiphany stuff ongoing in parallel. Brandon tried to turn this into a race to Merrilor for Perrin-Mat to compensate the fact their stories had a much narrower impact on things pre-Merrilor, but personally I think he wasn't all that successful.

In hindsight, I wonder if it might not have worked better if Brandon had stopped TGS with Rand vanishing from Tear as cliffhanger while letting Egwene win the Tower as a more positive climax, returning to them in TOM only when Perrin and Mat caught up to that timeline. The big disadvantage is that for Rand it works better to follow immediately with the Ebou Dar days and the epiphany. For the ensemble of the story, though, it's such a turning point it overshadows much of the rest once it happens.

There's really no perfect compromise, RJ himself was convinced he had to fit the remainder of the story in one book one way or another or it wouldn't be as strong an ending as he envisioned.

Brandon sort of proved he was right. He made a mistake similar to the error of RJ with the Cleansing. The end of WH is spectacular but totally overshadowed the developments in the first half of COT (the average reader no longer wanted to know what happened prior to the Cleansing, he wanted to know what happens after and where Rand goes from there), and RJ was unable to fit in COT the climax section which became KOD, leaving COT like a first half of a WOT book, not delivering on the second half, always more "exciting". COT worked with the more patient/involved readers, but frustrated the far more numerous average readers.

Probably not to end up with a similar problem in his finale, he had Tuon/Mat/Elayne and Egwene go further in the timeline during KOD, so he could focus on Rand/Perrin at the start of AMOL before interweaving the others and bring all four to the epiphany climax then launch TG proper. Brandon undid what RJ set up by the end of KOD to have Egwene and Rand follow one another in TGS. Then he slowed down/spread Perrin because he needed him as core for TOM. Doing things that way, he ended up needing weeks so Egwene dealt with Mesaana, and a very long break between the epiphany and Merrilor. That's a fairly small compromise compared to the rest, but it contributes to the dilution of drama. Rand post epiphany feels strongly pulled to break the seals and launch TG because "we can't wait anymore", but at the same time he goes and gives a full month before the gathering. It's given half the readers a strong conviction Rand must have accomplished tons and tons of things off-screen during that time because why wait so long otherwise, but give or take a few things Brandon chose to keep from us for now (similar to Egwene's research), it's probably a wrong impression. By the end of TOM, Rand had not contacted Tuon, still thinks he must do something for Lan, he sends Naeff to the BT right before going to Merrilor. Etc.

The compromise that made most sense was to keep all the pre-Merrilor stuff to one book, and it's what Brandon was aiming for, but deadlines interfered with his plans. He would also have preferred, he said so, to keep drafting Perrin/Mat until Merrilor before considering how best to divide the material, but he presented to Harriet an alternative that would let them publish a book on time using what he had finished, and she made the final decision.

Of course it's a matter of tastes and perspectives. Tons of readers, a majority it seems, found TOM satisfying because it provided more than its share of adventures/events, not burdened by the feeling of wrongness of the global structure as my type of readers were.

He raises some very solid points on how difficult this process was and once again highlights how much of a gigantic problem time was working on ToM. I really wish they had just taken more time and done it right.

 

He is absolutely correct in the last couple sentences too. It really comes down to different tastes and what people look for in their fantasy.

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DM made me lose a well typed post. I don't have the patience to type it all out again so here are the cliff notes version

 

The scene was not from cads pint if view. Without seeing her internal monologue, we have no idea how out if character it was. Most people are treating the scene like she was sitting there all happy and calm, but then her bipolar disorder acted up and her episode of mania was lashing out at tam. She could have been extremely nervous and stressed before he even came in to the room, thinking about how everything must go perfectly

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Which has been brought up several times and acknowledged as theoretically possible by both sides, Short.

 

The issue is that in the past, whenever such an uncharacteristic snap or shift happened there were clues within the writing to justify it or give us a hint as to what's going on.

 

No one is saying it's impossible for Cadsuance to have lost it for a minute.  What some are saying is that the writing did a non-existant job of showing us that this is what happened.

 

I personally see it the same way you and many others do, but I had to decide that on my own based on my own logic and reasoning skills, I am, effectively, making up an answer to satisfy myself, I'm not relying on the books subtlety and phrasing to let me in on it.

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Otherwise, everything you state as objective evidence is simply your subjective interpretation of what is being written.

That I conceded your right to hold each character in a different view doesn't imply the argument you present here. Evidence is evidence, to be judged on merit. Whether or not it amounts to proof is left to each of us individually, is what I meant.

 

By the way, I don't even get too attached to my own perception of the characters. Light knows I used to think Nynaeve obnoxiously overbearing; it passed as I grew (from a teenager--however goody-good I was--to an adult with teenage little brothers and nephews).

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="KakitaOCU" data-cid="2715595" data-time="1356248289"><p>

Which has been brought up several times and acknowledged as theoretically possible by both sides, Short.<br />

<br />

The issue is that in the past, whenever such an uncharacteristic snap or shift happened there were clues within the writing to justify it or give us a hint as to what's going on.<br />

<br />

No one is saying it's impossible for Cadsuance to have lost it for a minute. What some are saying is that the writing did a non-existant job of showing us that this is what happened.<br />

<br />

I personally see it the same way you and many others do, but I had to decide that on my own based on my own logic and reasoning skills, I am, effectively, making up an answer to satisfy myself, I'm not relying on the books subtlety and phrasing to let me in on it.</p></blockquote>

 

Some are saying that such a snap is impossible too.

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@skalors3, you are twisting other people's arguments. When I said that even a freaked-out Cadsuane would react differently, my intention was clearly that the likelihood of such a reaction is negligible. I believe the term 'anything is possible' also cropped up. I daresay others spoke from a similar disposition. The problem is that it isn't believable, even if not positively out of the realm of possibility (in this regard, Aristotle's opinion of improbable possibilities comes to mind). What's worse, it openly exhibits bias in the narrative that wasn't there before. There, we touch on execution as well (but not exclusively).

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It seems to me, that one of the large stumbling blocks here is that people read the stuff that RJ wrote with different bias, and this is then applied to how BS wrote the character.

 

An easy example is the SF scene. If I understand the argument correctly then Sutt, Fish and others read it as an example of Cads showing restraint under trying circumstances. Whereas I read it as showing that Cads is capable of taking out her frustration with Rand on third parties (and this is without liking the Seafolk). Both viewpoints are supported by the text (when I step back and try to read it unbiased). So from my viewpoint, the Tam incident is one step further along, which is entirely justified by the fact that the underlying situation is so much worse*.

 

However, I do agree that it could have been written better - fionwe's(?) post way back when about dialogue and the blending of internal thoughts, spoken words and actions is generally not done as well as RJ. I think I just apply this flaw in the writing to a wider variety of symptons - it shows here (especially), in the Mat sections, and (now I'm rereading tGS) it shows in the Eg chapters - I think I can see where the merge of writing occurred (if this holds true throughout the books).

 

I would expect Min to react in surprise, she does view Cads as a strict Aunt, but for me the issue is the way it's written (the lack of internal dialogue), not Cads actions (in my head their is a difference between the 2).

 

 

 

*To address the points by Kakita (and others) - I don't feel the 'mental juggling' (not sure what to term it, as honestly I didn't have to think in my head how it worked, it was just my natural assumption) that's done in this case - situations awful and Cads is stressed as a result of this doesn't seem any more of a leap to make then other situations we've read throughout the books (off the top of my head):

 

Eg now knows pretty much everything to do with the Power despite the fact she never seems to have had any training - but it works because we know Egs character has her delving into everything, it doesn't need to be written in the text as it's a logical assumption to make.

 

One written by RJ, is after Moggy escapes. Eg rushes to the tent and flat out thinks that Nyn is the only one capable of taking on a Forsaken on her own, yet in the Eg vs. Nyn thread on the General Discussion board, fionwe and Suttree argue that Eg's thinking that it was stupid to rush into the tent unprepared and that she'd potentially be going against 2 Forsaken. This viewpoint is correct, (but to me) doesn't address the fact that she thinks that Nyn is the only one (logically Eg can't be thinking that Nyn would have more success going in prepared, as at that stage she can't channel at will)...

 

So in short, there are a few points where you have to make assumptions not explicately stated in the text (the Avi Rand comment is another, taken in context Aiel are formal, but they don't always use full names, amongst equals or in informal settings they use fist names, eg the first time Rand meets Lian, or the first time He Who Comes With the Dawn meets a Roofmistress - it should be formal, yet they are still using first names here. It seems logical to assume that Avi also thinks the same way, we know that she wasn't going to go to Rand until she became WO and could go as his equal, now she is, for me the thought statement that makes the shift isn't necessary.

 

tSR - Cold Rocks Hold

Amys and Lian had climbed down, and to Rand's surprise, Rhuarc put an arm around each of them. They were both tall, as most Aiel women seemed to be, but neither came higher than the clan chief's shoulder. "You have met my wife Amys," he said to Rand. "Now you must meet my wife Lian."

 

 

 

Sorry - the post rambled a bit, but the conversation has touched on several different points in recent posts, and I'm writing this between baking.

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@skalors3, you are twisting other people's arguments. When I said that even a freaked-out Cadsuane would react differently, my intention was clearly that the likelihood of such a reaction is negligible. I believe the term 'anything is possible' also cropped up. I daresay others spoke from a similar disposition. The problem is that it isn't believable, even if not positively out of the realm of possibility (in this regard, Aristotle's opinion of improbable possibilities comes to mind). What's worse, it openly exhibits bias in the narrative that wasn't there before. There, we touch on execution as well (but not exclusively).

 

I think we're going in circles, but I find such a snap entirely believable for her under that kind of pressure and strain, which I find evident in the narrative.

 

Min's and Tam's views are biased, not the word of God. Min is Rand's lover and closest confidant and has seen him incredibly frustrated and stressed by Cadsuane over the past year. Tam has just seen his son for the first time in two years and his son nearly killed him and was screaming about being manipulated by Cads. Thankfully, they're fictional characters in a book with biases and opinions all their own, whom you have every right and are allowed to disagree with. Just because Min and Tam see Cads as a bully does not mean that you're supposed to agree with them.

 

If anything, maybe you'd be better off arguing that Min's assessment of Cads is out of character for Min, but I really don't see Cads' reaction as unbelievable, because I think it was the very point of the scene and highlights the obvious tensions she's under. The possibility of her reacting in such a way under that type of pressure is far from 'negligible.'

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@skalors3, you are twisting other people's arguments. When I said that even a freaked-out Cadsuane would react differently, my intention was clearly that the likelihood of such a reaction is negligible. I believe the term 'anything is possible' also cropped up. I daresay others spoke from a similar disposition. The problem is that it isn't believable, even if not positively out of the realm of possibility (in this regard, Aristotle's opinion of improbable possibilities comes to mind). What's worse, it openly exhibits bias in the narrative that wasn't there before. There, we touch on execution as well (but not exclusively).

 

I think we're going in circles, but I find such a snap entirely believable for her under that kind of pressure and strain.

 

Min's and Tam's views are biased, not the word of God. Min is Rand's lover and closest confidant and has seen him incredibly frustrated and stressed by Cadsuane over the past year. Tam has just seen his son for the first time in two years and his son nearly killed him and was screaming about being manipulated by Cads. Thankfully, they're fictional characters in a book with biases and opinions all their own, whom you have every right and are allowed to disagree with. Just because Min and Tam see Cads as a bully does not mean that you're supposed to agree with them. If anything, maybe you'd be better off arguing that Min's assessment of Cads is out of character for Min, but I really don't see Cads' reaction as unbelievable, because I think it was the very point of the scene and highlights the obvious tensions she's under. The possibility of her reacting in such a way under that type of pressure is not 'negligible.'

 

Of course she is a bully, she is Aes Sedai, and they manipulate people all the time. The only difference between her and any other woman is that she is aggressive and doesn't take BS from people who are being stubborn. Most Aes Sedai are subtle with how they manipulate people, she uses different methods to get people to do what she wants as well as what is right.

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I've said what I meant and meant what I've said. The narrative betrays a bias that was not there before. Both Tam and Min have spoken countless times before about people of Cadsuane's type (and in Min's case, she's had PoV's where she directly considered Cadsuane), so it's not like I have nothing to compare this to.

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I've said what I meant and meant what I've said. The narrative betrays a bias that was not there before. Both Tam and Min have spoken countless times before about people of Cadsuane's type (and in Min's case, she's had PoV's where she directly considered Cadsuane), so it's not like I have nothing to compare this to.

 

Tam's only had the briefest glimpse of Cads and had just come from a very traumatic moment, so it's best to leave him out of it. Sounds like your problem is with Min's viewpoint, which may be out of character for her. I don't believe that make's Cads actions in such a situation unbelievable. "Narrative bias" aside, the actions are understandable. Maybe we need a review of Min's previous opinions.

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Of course she is a bully, she is Aes Sedai, and they manipulate people all the time.

It's obviously a fallacy to call all AS "bullies" by default or to say that manipulation makes one a bully. As has been repeated ad nauseum in this thread "bullying" is just one tool of many in the box for Cads. She has her mission, she has promised to do what is right for Rand(not herself or the WT) and she uses a variety of methods to be successful. It's not as if she enjoys being a bully or picks on those weaker for no reason. She actually cares very deeply for people and is constantly trying to improve those around her. As RJ said..

 

 

She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for. You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.
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How many times did Cadsuane slap Rand?  Seems the behaviour of a bully. 

You need to look at what the driving motivation was. Once when he used balefire which to the best of her knowledge shouldn't be used under any circumstances. A second time after she gave him three chances over a fair period of time when he was acting a fool. Neither of those things fit with being a bully. In fact one of the key elements to her character is a drive to help people and make them better all around. Aside from all the other methods she uses with people that shows she isn't one, we see her quite clearly regret having to take bullying" actions against someone in WH.

 

She has done more for Rand's good than just about any character in the entire series aside from perhaps Min. It's just crazy that she saves his life a couple times, swears to do what is best for him unlike all other AS and people still say ZOMG but she was MEAN to the Dragon Reborn. They never seem to realize that she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their own actions. She doesn't suffer fools. Little reading for you if you wan to better understand the character.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html

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Tam's only had the briefest glimpse of Cads and had just come from a very traumatic moment, so it's best to leave him out of it.
Do come off it, will you? I said "people of Cadsuane's type" (RJ's partiality to bossy wonder-women needs no expounding), so clearly I knew exactly what I was aiming at. You can disagree, but you can't sweep aside what I said as if I were merely confused.

 

You take a different view of the situation. That's your prerogative. For my part, I feel like I've explained numerous times why I think Cadsuane's character is such that she would break down in a completely different manner when taken to that extreme, and had marvellous help describing why Tam's and Min's reactions to what she did--even if one accepts it without question--was ill-conceived and poorly executed.

 

Perhaps we should retire the argument pending fresh perspectives. At this point, it does very little good to rehash both of our arguments every other page of this thread. Which, I might add, is why I only expressed my personal feelings of agreement with Dom's perspective; I was dismayed to discover that these words were then used by others to imply that the same arguments you've presented before now held superior merit, but I'll do my best not to repeat myself in the future.

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Not to stir the pot, too much...more of an observation, really

If Tam had never used the term 'bully,' and that line of dialog instead never occurred - say for instance you get a run of the mill *urk! or choked sound, yelling/dismayed stock stormtrooper eeyah!, that kind of thing...

Aside from the poor execution/planning/writing of that scene, would people have gone the route of 'oh Cads is a bully,' or is it the kind of sense that people feel that way, and rationalize that that's precisely who she is (despite the prior, contrary, evidence presented), because that's the single line of text that Tam is given to describe her as?

The way I see it, is the way people resort to the agreement of Cadsuane, based on a single line of Tam's, when we as readers have had at the least several volumes beforehand to confirm what a lot of folks might take for her proper characterization(myself included) - The way people react to Tam's line, when we're witness to everything thus far into the series concerning the character of Cadsuane...

To me, it's just kind of bogus? Like people are eager to take mental shortcut, because Tam's a likeable character & we just see him under duress when he crosses paths with Rand, after so much time in which Rand's character has changed from whence we first meet them both on the quarry road. Thereby Tam must be right, because when have we ever seen him do us as readers, or anyone in world, wrong?

...But, by doing so it patently ignores everything that we also know about Cadsuane, who by her nature, as sort of a foil for Rand, may or may not be perceived as being unlikable to a reader, in the first place. Thus, when Cads commits an act as some may view as incredibly contrary to her established M.O. irregardless of how poorly written & executed it may also be, on top of it, some people are just going to eagerly throw her under the bus.

And that's not to say it's on account of Tam-fan-ism, but whenever we've seen Tam in the series he's always so affable, caring & forthright, stand up kind of guy. But, with Cadsuane we see someone who'll rattle chains & ruffle feathers, get her hands dirty, and give people a reason for dislike, although her methods and intentions are clearly for the betterment of situations at large.

Some readers are just primed, from a certain point of view, to agree with Tam's assessment.

Other's are wishing Sanderson gets pegged in the head with an acorn by a vengeful squirrel who may, or may not because this is a squirrel we're talking about, have been able to point out gross mischaracterizations, from the confines of anyone's favorite type of conifer.

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Just to be fair, dislike of Cadsuane is well recorded since pretty much the dawn of time. I agree that it stems from her role as Rand's resident ego-popper, but it's by no means new.

 

BTW I liked the part about the squirrel. Has an D. Adams feel to it :smile:

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Tam's only had the briefest glimpse of Cads and had just come from a very traumatic moment, so it's best to leave him out of it.
Do come off it, will you? I said "people of Cadsuane's type" (RJ's partiality to bossy wonder-women needs no expounding), so clearly I knew exactly what I was aiming at. You can disagree, but you can't sweep aside what I said as if I were merely confused.

 

You feel like I missed your point, I feel like you missed mine. Again, Tam had just come from a very traumatic experience with his son. His POV and what he says is going to be colored, whatever his past experiences are with similar women. I wasn't trying to treat you as being confused. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'm just saying Tam's reaction makes sense to me outside of any narrative bias.

 

Anyway, you're right that we should probably just drop the argument, at least until AMoL is out and has been read.

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@suttree

 

see the different reactions in rand between moiraine's warning against balefile in FoH vs Cadsuane's slap.  Moiraine without physical violence made Rand reconsider his position re: balefire.  Did Cadsuane?

 

Maybe Rand was being a fool or maybe not... in any case slapping a fool almost never works.

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@suttree

 

see the different reactions in rand between moiraine's warning against balefile in FoH vs Cadsuane's slap.  Moiraine without physical violence made Rand reconsider his position re: balefire.  Did Cadsuane?

 

Maybe Rand was being a fool or maybe not... in any case slapping a fool almost never works.

Did you even read the rest of my post or the link I included? It is just one of the many tools she uses and that situation wasn't exactly one in which they could calmly discuss things. As an aside Moiraine didn't get him to stop using it so it's rather beside the point. Cadsuane has an incredible track record of success and she is trying to help Rand. She literally swore to do what was best for him not herself or the WT.

 

A bully is someone who is habitually cruel to smaller or weaker people. With Cads with see the exact opposite in her dealings with Sorilea, Daigian and Samitsu. We see her deeply regret the need to bully someone in WH. All I'm asking is you look at her motivations and the reality of her actions throughout series.

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