Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[elmis]

New Spring was excellent and concise.

 

 

Fish

 

I much prefer the original Legends version of New Spring edited by Robert Silverberg to the longer stand alone one (which was released in RJs CoT era). The Aiel shouting to a 25 year old Lan was just awkward.

[yoniy0]

I much prefer the original Legends version of New Spring edited by Robert Silverberg to the longer stand alone one (which was released in RJs CoT era). The Aiel shouting to a 25 year old Lan was just awkward.

Heavens no! Moiraine's WT arc was fascinating.

[RobertJordan]

Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Because most of the 'reasoned critiques' are actually pointless nitpicking. The only valid complaints in my eyes are things that objectively contradict established lore, like the mindtrap section, or continuity issues, like Sulin being in two different places at the same time. Such issues are not only Brandon's responsibility, but also his editors too - the books are not a one-man show and it's extremely irritating how Brandon seems to take all the flack for it. It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan. The latter claim is particularly ridiculous when one considers how Jordan's incompetent editors allowed him to blather on for pages and pages about unnecessary trivialities.

 

There is an odd sort of myopia amongst the more senior members of this board, an arrogance that asserts that every problem with the later books must be Brandon's fault, because Robert Jordan could never have made such amateur mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that every single criticism of Brandon is 100% valid and that all the complainers are engaged in some epic quest to improve Brandon as a writer. But this belief presupposes that the problematic parts were indeed written by Brandon himself, and that they are actually problematic at all, which is subjective.

Well said. To be honest, reading through these books again (on my reread of KoD), I'm pretty friggin shocked at all the errors in them. Spelling, incorrect use of words, words that are totally misspelled. Where are the editors for these books? And, someone posted a line from the prologue somewhere here where Mat or Talmanes or whoever thinks "he'd mount them all".... where the fug is the editor? It's astounding! Writers make mistakes all the time, that's why there are editors.

 

As for the rest of your statement, Superfade, I agree.

 

This is what I've read on these forums more than once - Brandon wasn't given, or didn't have, enough time to write the books properly.

The first read through of the books everybody was happy, etc.

 

There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do. You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Dont make excuses for him IMO. He was given plenty of time. So much time that he was writing his own books during the same time period. It sucks, but the reality is that BS butchered the last few books (we have yet to see the last one, but given what we already have seen I would be shocked if things changed much). This wasn't his editors fault, it was HIS fault. He wrote the books and therefor he was responsible. The guy just doesn't have the attention to detail and drive for perfection that was needed.

 

Brandon was not chosen because he had the best writing talents for the job. He was chosen because he was a superfan first that cared about the series. He has even stated that his job was not to match RJ's writing style and he wasn't going to try. His job was to make sure the tone of the characters stayed the same, make sure the world of WoT that RJ built remained the same, and that the little details that RJ so meticulously planted throughout the series were used in his writing while telling the story RJ laid out.

 

Let's be real here - this wasn't some monumental task for a guy who authors books as a career. Brandon had a very detailed outline already written, 10+ books of material to draw on already written, a good number of actual scenes already written, and a ridiculous treasure trove of notes to draw on that listed out every detail we could ever imagine about the WoT world. Furthermore, the hardest part of the whole project was matching his writing style with the previous authors and he flat out announced he was just not even going to attempt to do so! So all he had left to do was literally fill in the blanks using material that already existed and incorporate the details from the previous dozen books into these scenes. And somehow he still massively screwed that up. He literally screwed up the only thing he had to work towards. And the worst part is that a good chunk of the screwups dont even come from him just making a mistake - they come from what seems like a desire to interject his own little touch to various scenes. It's like he just simply is incapable of remembering that his job was to write RJ's book and instead has to constantly muck it up with his own personal flares.

 

At the end of the day it wont matter much because the story is RJs and we are getting RJs story in its completed form. What people need to remember though is that this series was defined by and made great by the meticulous world building. RJ was a masterful author IMO, but he was a near genius when it came to world building and incorporating that world so flawlessly into his story. For die hard fans it is near heart breaking to watch the core of what made WoT great be trampled through willfull ignorance and a lack of attention to detail. That is what bothers everyone, and that is why I find it hard to excuse Brandon. He literally mucked up the one and only thing he possibly could - attention to detail.

 

That being said, I will agree that it doesn't do much good to point it out over and over again. I will try to hold out until the end. After everything is said and done, I am certain that there is going to be a boatload of plot points that were not tied up very neatly that everyone is going to be talking about. Hell, at that point there wont be anything left to talk about but nitpick the details.

This, very much this. Detail is what made the books come alive for me. To me, Robert Jordan was Picasso and Sanderson was a paint by numbers artist.

[skalors3]

I think everyone should be happy that they get to read the last chapter. Plain and simple. A man died. Someone else is picking up his work and trying to connect dots between stories. They are different writers, with different styles. It would have been the case regardless of who they picked.

 

I think Brandon's series are well done. That's probably because they are HIS.

 

Everyone has an idea of how things should be done. There are even some very MORONIC ideas out there. Such that existed with DT, Harry Potter and TSOT. People were disappointed with those stories and they were completed by the original authors. I have even heard that 2 of those series being referred to as, *gasp*, RUSHED.

 

Be SATISFIED that you are going to read the ending as it was meant to be read. Most of your glaring issues with this series is the fact that you believe R.J. had mystery behind EVERYTHING. Much like J.K. Rowling. It turns out her writing was very straight forward and obvious to those who read the books at face value.

 

I have news here. Not everything is complicated, even when dealing with complicated writers. Did Brandon make mistakes? Yes, because the story that has been developing in his head for the past 20 years is "The Stormlight Archive." Not "The Wheel of Time."

 

Lastly Lucker's, I have met Brandon too, who gives a shit that you have shared meaningful moments with him? So you've argued with him over the Wheel of Time? Wow. Be thankful that you get a story out of him before Harriet died and could no longer edit the books. Maybe that was why they were rushed so much. You don't know, no one but they do, so stop pretending like you have any inkling of the truth. Lol.

 

Am I completely satisfied with the books? No. I am not always satisfied with books finished by original authors. However, that is because I have my own expectations of something. If they are that horrible, don't read it.

[ArveduiEreinion]

I think everyone should be happy that they get to read the last chapter. Plain and simple. A man died. Someone else is picking up his work and trying to connect dots between stories. They are different writers, with different styles. It would have been the case regardless of who they picked.

 

I think Brandon's series are well done. That's probably because they are HIS.

 

Everyone has an idea of how things should be done. There are even some very MORONIC ideas out there. Such that existed with DT, Harry Potter and TSOT. People were disappointed with those stories and they were completed by the original authors. I have even heard that 2 of those series being referred to as, *gasp*, RUSHED.

 

Be SATISFIED that you are going to read the ending as it was meant to be read. Most of your glaring issues with this series is the fact that you believe R.J. had mystery behind EVERYTHING. Much like J.K. Rowling. It turns out her writing was very straight forward and obvious to those who read the books at face value.

 

I have news here. Not everything is complicated, even when dealing with complicated writers. Did Brandon make mistakes? Yes, because the story that has been developing in his head for the past 20 years is "The Stormlight Archive." Not "The Wheel of Time."

 

Lastly Lucker's, I have met Brandon too, who gives a shit that you have shared meaningful moments with him? So you've argued with him over the Wheel of Time? Wow. Be thankful that you get a story out of him before Harriet died and could no longer edit the books. Maybe that was why they were rushed so much. You don't know, no one but they do, so stop pretending like you have any inkling of the truth. Lol.

 

Am I completely satisfied with the books? No. I am not always satisfied with books finished by original authors. However, that is because I have my own expectations of something. If they are that horrible, don't read it.

 

His moronic rushed satisfied everything. His moronic....rushed...satisfied...everything. Hmmmmm. Maybe...no, probably not.

 

I was looking for deeper meaning with all those capitalized words but there is none to be found.

[skalors3]

I think they fit well for all of your complaints to be honest, lol.

[skalors3]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

[TootThatHorn]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

 

Not me, I found what you said pretty shallow; nothing too exciting or deep there.

[skalors3]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

 

Not me, I found what you said pretty shallow; nothing too exciting or deep there.

 

Hah. You call me shallow for saying that you guys should be fortunate to have a book to read at all? Lol. Wow.

[Suttree]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

 

Not me, I found what you said pretty shallow; nothing too exciting or deep there.

 

Hah. You call me shallow for saying that you guys should be fortunate to have a book to read at all? Lol. Wow.

 

Somehow you continue to entirely miss the point...

[skalors3]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

 

Not me, I found what you said pretty shallow; nothing too exciting or deep there.

 

Hah. You call me shallow for saying that you guys should be fortunate to have a book to read at all? Lol. Wow.

 

Somehow you continue to entirely miss the point...

 

Enlighten me, oh sage. Or are you going to give a "you're not worth the time" answer.

[Rael]

Interesting thread here. Long time lurker here. My opinion on the matter, for what it is worth, is that Brandon has done an admirable job. While it is not perfect and I do wish he would have read the books a bit more in-depthly to iron out continuity issues, I do appreciate that we are getting an ending. Some characters still ring true (Rand and Perrin) for me while others fall short (Mat and Elayne). I am a hardcore WoT fan. I am not reading just for plot advancement as one poster has suggested of those who are satisfied with the current story. I am content with the characters, the details and the plot. I do value the discussion here though and I hope to add to it more over the coming months.

[Jong]

I agree with the people who said RJ never seemed to be in a hurry to complete the WOT. He actually could have completed the story in his lifetime, had he been more disciplined and perhaps more motivated, it would have been somewhat shorter, but by no means incomplete or less important as a fantasy work. It was his decision to slow the pace of the story so considerably after LOC and ACOS that led us to needing Brandon to finish this off in the first place.

 

The two primary criticisms here are: Brandon did not do his best work or take enough ownership of the series to "do it right". And; at the same time, people dislike the areas where Brandon did insert himself into the books, the Brandon-isms the subtle changes in some characters, the "filler". These two complaints are actually at odds with one another. In order to actually take ownership of the work and "do it right" he needs to do it his way, which means more Brandon and less RJ in the books, which no one wants either. So I think Brandon was in something of a no-win situation with respect to hard core fan criticsm.

 

Not to mention the fact that, expecting any writer to do the best work of his career in another author's universe is just completely unrealistic. And Brandon's talents are for crafting a good plot with dynamic characters and his creativity He is the magical systems guy. Brandon's talents are not such that he could step in with a minimally invasive approach and simply knit together a few scenes and produce a complete and polished work, that's not who he is. And I am not convinced he was given enough in RJs notes for that approach to really make sense.

 

I personally take issue with the comparisons showing Brandon to be an inferior writer than RJ. To me Brandon has many strengths as a writer and areas where he is strong, his strengths are superior to RJ in many ways. His discipline, the pacing with which he presents stories and avoids irrelevant side characters and focused on the meat of the story, that's great. The clarity and simplicity with which he can explain a complicated battle scene and make it clear to the read what is happening is also an improvement over RJ. His focus on presenting complete stories in a single book, with a beginning, middle, and end its is admirable and refreshing to see in a WOT book after reading episodic story lines that stretch over 2, 3 ,4 books. In my view, being a storyteller, means telling a complete and compelling story while focusing on what is important. RJ used to be a great story teller, TGH and TSR are to me two of the best fantasy stories ever written. But comparing Brandon today with RJ from books 7-11, Brandon is obviously the better storyteller. If RJ had been able to hold onto his ability to tell a complete story in a single book and avoid episodic plot and bogging down in fringe characters, we would not be here today.

 

Brandon's grasp of Characters, even RJ's own characters in WOT is also admirable. To me, Brandon writes a better Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve, Min, Siuan,and Egwene, than RJ has in a decade plus. It is obvious that Brandon just doesn't get certain characters, Mat in particular but that is I think forgivable because they are not his characters, and on subsequent reads, Mat in TGS is not nearly so bad as he first seemed.

 

I used to be a Hardcore Fan of the WOT, but after all the storytelling problems in books 7-11, the WOT is now just another story that I read. I think if RJ had been able to avoid more of the issues and keep more of his fan base over the years, there would be much more diversity of opinion and appreciation for Brandon's work in this forum. As it is I think the people who still remain hardcore fans are those who were not sensitive to the changes in the WOT following book 7 and as a result are perhaps less appreciative of the areas where Brandon does well as a writer.

 

I think there is much to like, enjoy and appreciate in Brandon's work, there is also much to love in RJ's work, that is after all why we are here after reading the WOT, myself, a dozen times or more over 20 years. People saying that Brandon can't hold a candle to RJ are I think largely missing the former's talent and the latter's flaws.

[Suttree]

People saying that Brandon can't hold a candle to RJ are I think largely missing the former's talent and the latter's flaws.

 

Except for the fact that RJ's flaws have been well documented here as well. He was an excellant fantasy writer but it's not as if his work holds up outside of genre. I think it will be interesting to see if many of the "positives" you highlight above for Brandon hold true throughout Way of Kings. We have no idea yet how he will handle a work the length of the WoT so I think your claims are a bit premature. We do know we have seen a number of great fantasy authors(Martin comes to mind) slow down in that middle section of the story arc, it generally happens in a series of that length.

 

As for the writing from what I have seen it comes down to personnel preference. Those that like fast paced books, high on action scenes tend to gravitate towards Brandon's work. Those who enjoy polished prose, subtle foreshadowing and a more immersive world lean towards Jordan. They both have their place and there is nothing inherently better about either per se. Personally I have a tough time getting past the quality of writing and tendency to use the sledge hammer where a chisel will do in Brandon's work, but again everyone looks for different things.

[Jong]

People saying that Brandon can't hold a candle to RJ are I think largely missing the former's talent and the latter's flaws.

 

Except for the fact that RJ's flaws have been well documented here as well. He was an excellant fantasy writer but it's not as if his work holds up outside of genre. I think it will be interesting to see if many of the "positives" you highlight above for Brandon hold true throughout Way of Kings. We have no idea yet how he will handle a work the length of the WoT so I think your claims are a bit premature. We do know we have seen a number of great fantasy authors(Martin comes to mind) slow down in that middle section of the story arc, it generally happens in a series of that length.

 

As for the writing from what I have seen it comes down to personnel preference. Those that like fast paced books, high on action scenes tend to gravitate towards Brandon's work. Those who enjoy polished prose, subtle foreshadowing and a more immersive world lean towards Jordan. They both have their place and there is nothing inherently better about either per se. Personally I have a tough time getting past the quality of writing and tendency to use the sledge hammer where a chisel will do in Brandon's work, but again everyone looks for different things.

 

I am sure it has. But generally the discussion in this thread was very pro RJ and anti BS, which is what I was responding to.

 

I am also curious how Brandon does in Way of Kings. Comparing with Martin (who I also really enjoy) it has taken him a long time to get DwD out and its not his best work either. I think you are correct, that a long "epic fantasy" story its got to be hard to maintain that momentum over a whole career.

[Agitel]

Slight correction: The Way of Kings is the only the title of the first novel in Brandon's series. The series itself is called The Stormlight Archive.

[hjustinpace]

The Stormlight Archive will be particularly interesting to see unfold because it is being billed as a 10 book series from the get go. The Way of Kings is much more open-ended, just-a-cog-in-a-giant-wheel-of-a-series-y than at least the first three books in The Wheel of Time. There was a certain amount of angst amongst fans way back then that appeared rooted in the transition from more traditional trilogy-based storytelling to a truly epic story. Will Sanderson's approach temper fans expectations? Will it help him avoid Jordan's and Martin's well publicized "second act" issues? We'll see. Heck of a lot of great spec fic coming out every month to read in the interim though.

[he who comes with a bong]

Also, that is the problem everyone has. They keep looking for deeper meanings.

 

Not me, I found what you said pretty shallow; nothing too exciting or deep there.

 

Hah. You call me shallow for saying that you guys should be fortunate to have a book to read at all? Lol. Wow.

 

Somehow you continue to entirely miss the point...

 

Enlighten me, oh sage. Or are you going to give a "you're not worth the time" answer.

 

 

Damn dude calm down

[Agitel]

The Stormlight Archive will be particularly interesting to see unfold because it is being billed as a 10 book series from the get go. The Way of Kings is much more open-ended, just-a-cog-in-a-giant-wheel-of-a-series-y than at least the first three books in The Wheel of Time. There was a certain amount of angst amongst fans way back then that appeared rooted in the transition from more traditional trilogy-based storytelling to a truly epic story. Will Sanderson's approach temper fans expectations? Will it help him avoid Jordan's and Martin's well publicized "second act" issues? We'll see. Heck of a lot of great spec fic coming out every month to read in the interim though.

 

Brandon has expressed his thoughts on the slow-downs in The Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire. His main observation was that the series branched out to so many characters (and thus plotlines) that the pace got choked up, and has said that's an observation he hopes he can learn from. On a related note, Brandon has said he's kept the POVs limited in WoK despite intending to branch out to more characters just to keep the introductory book (and incredibly alien world) more accessible. He didn't want to introduce all the important characters at once, but still intends to branch out somewhat in the following books. Part of the point of the "interlude" chapters are to make clear that Roshar is a big and expansive and that there are things going on elsewhere that will become more important later.

 

I highly suggest WoK to anyone who hasn't read it or thinks Brandon's stalled as a writer. It's certainly an evolution from Mistborn and Brandon does much better with multi-book works than with standalone novels (he himself set out to write The Alloy of Law to try to prove to himself that he can write on that smaller scale). He still has his "Brandonisms" in some respects (some of which I quite like, actually . . . in some ways I feel like Brandon and I think similarly. While of course some people keep secrets and hold things back in real life, it seems like many books take the whole not-talking-to-each-other thing to the point where it's not realistic and more of a plot device to create tension and drama), but he's obviously much more comfortable and skilled in his own imagination than in Jordan's.

 

Also, keep in mind that the first manuscripts of WoK are very old, and much of this work was written before and during tGS and ToM. WoK was part of Brandon's "buffer" (books already written or largely written) that allowed him to release so many books so close together. It'll be interesting to see how the second book of the series is precisely because it's all being written after he'd written AMoL, so we'll really see what impact the last few years have had.

[BFG]

I hesitate to resussitate the beast, but this was brought up in another thread (simple questions thread on general discussion page) and never answered. I figured it would be better here, since the possibility of de-railing another thread looms, but...

 

Someone brought up two instances with Cadsuane as lowest plot denominator plot-work. I understand, although I don't fully agree with the Cads v Tam showdown, but the initial Rand throwing Cads out was also brought up. I actually thought this was pretty well done, but even if you didn't like it I don't see how it was lowest denominator plotwork. Was hoping someone could explain it to me.

[batcaver]

I was also curious. There were several characters that I thought suffered after BS, but what is the issue with Cadsuane? Must be something I didn't notice....

[shortkut]

I was also curious. There were several characters that I thought suffered after BS, but what is the issue with Cadsuane? Must be something I didn't notice....

some see cads as virtually infallible, and on the rare occasion when she does, she does it with class (she is a classy broad after all) and had the best of intentions at the time. They feel that Brandon dumbed her down because she never would have lost her temper and things like that.

[BFG]

I was also curious. There were several characters that I thought suffered after BS, but what is the issue with Cadsuane? Must be something I didn't notice....

some see cads as virtually infallible, and on the rare occasion when she does, she does it with class (she is a classy broad after all) and had the best of intentions at the time. They feel that Brandon dumbed her down because she never would have lost her temper and things like that.

 

I've just gone through the other board (it was actually favourite scene not simple questions) to reread what confused me.

 

I know that the problem with Tam was that she lost her temper very quickly, resorted to using the Power when normally she'd call them down for stuff and generally is out of character (the reason I don't have such a problem with this is that since Rand has been growing so dark and Cads is essentially seeing her lifes work wnd in failure that losing her temper seems understandable). But with Rand, Cads remained calm,unflappable while Rand lost his temper and exiled her. To me the two instances are different. Normally Suttree and Luckers (who the conversation was between) are pretty good at backing up their arguments and I know that I'm not a critical reader (most of the time) so I 'm intrigued as to what I'm missing.

[yoniy0]

I 'm intrigued as to what I'm missing.

You'll have to give us a little more to work with here, unless you bump into someone who was part of the conversation you remember. What instances are you asking about, where Cadsuane supposedly acted out of character?

[BFG]

Here's some of it. It's the Darth Rand exiling Cads that I don't understand why Cads is so compromised in this pov. I understand the argument for the Tam scene (mentioned in Suttree's reply) for it to really work there would have needed to be something more to gradually show Cads losing it instead of coming all at once. But for the Rand scene, I genuinely thought it was well written.

 

- Darth Rand exiling Cads, no one has ever been that cool in the series. I like Cadsuane but it was extremely satisfying to see the never-ruffled woman scared out of her mind. I don't know if that POV was Brandon's work but I truly congratulate him if it's so. I wish we could've seen Rand like that more before VoG.

 

I would have loved this if Brandon hadn't needed to compromise Cadsuane so completely to achieve it.

 

It just fits that pattern we see all to often in BA's WoT writing. Really wish he could figure out how to write conflict between two character without resorting to that. This is on par with the Tam scene in that it allowed fan gratification(yeah bro! Cads got pwned!) to carry the narrative. Its lazy writing and a huge opportunity missed.